It's clearly silent. It clearly requires no hand gestures or holy symbols. You have to concentrate on them for ~3 seconds, that's it.
You wouldn't be able to identify it with Spellcraft because there's no casting involved. Spellcraft only lets you identify casting, and the paladin is not casting anything, only activating an ability.
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I always thought that part of activating smite evil was shouting "SMITE EVIL!" at the top of your lungs. You know, like "POWER ATTACK!" and "SNEAK ATTACK!" (which is why you lose stealth after the 1st attack, btw)
>.> or the enemy just knows where you are and can respond to your attacks per the rules?
Since everybody seems to disregard this, I'll quote it once more:
This is an excellent point. Given that Spell-Like Abilities are mechanically identical to spells (excluding where the rules specifically differentiate), then it must be noticeable to an observer as a spell-like ability (by RAW). Why? Because strict RAW says you can use the Spellcraft skill to identify a spell as it's being cast. Since spell-like abilities function as spells wherever they aren't defined as differing, they must be readily apparent in some fashion to the trained eye. Also note that identifying a spell with Spellcraft does not require any magical senses, merely a successful skill check.
I side with Jason Buhlman/Grenmeera on the idea that this means there's some form of observable phenomena associated with spells (and, consequently, spell-like abilities). However, the exact mechanics of why it's identifiable as Detect Evil to anyone making the DC 16 Spellcraft check are up to the individual GM.
This means that everybody, even people not trained in Spellcraft, will perceive that a spell was cast on them. People without Spellcraft only have no idea what spell that was.
So, probably glowing eyes for the Paladin or the like.
It's clearly silent. It clearly requires no hand gestures or holy symbols. You have to concentrate on them for ~3 seconds, that's it.
You wouldn't be able to identify it with Spellcraft because there's no casting involved. Spellcraft only lets you identify casting, and the paladin is not casting anything, only activating an ability.
This is clearly a wrong reading of the rules regarding Spellcraft, as Jason Bulmahn pointed out in the linked post last page.
But SLAs are activated by nothing more than an act of will!
Here you are correct!
This is why spellcraft cannot be used to identify a SLA as it is being initiated!
That was jumping to a conclusion.
Spellcraft identifies a spell as it is being cast. It does not identify the cause of a spell as it is being cast. The cause is irrelevant. The spell is still present and visible.
Nowhere in the rules does it say that you cannot use Spellcraft to identify a spell-like ability. In fact, the rules suggest otherwise since "In all other ways, a spell-like ability functions just like a spell".
You wouldn't be able to identify it with Spellcraft because there's no casting involved.
Though I disagree with you, at the very least your interpretation of the reading is a possible valid one. There is some ambiguity if you can call a spell-like ability as being cast, however I will probably defer once again to the line:
A spell-like ability has a casting time of 1 standard action unless noted otherwise in the ability or spell description. In all other ways, a spell-like ability functions just like a spell.
Since there is a casting time, I would think that you may consider it being cast.
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People realize a spell is cast on them IF they succeed at a save.
Detect Evil allows for no save.
They can indeed use Spellcraft to notice the telltale signs of a spell being cast if they are trained in the skill.
Since it is "trained-only", those people not trained in Spellcraft cannot even try using it. They just do not know what to look for.
Note also that the Spellcraft check has the same penalties as a Perception check. Thus, you can likely use Stealth or Sleight of Hand to make it more difficult to detect. And if you are hidden from view, they do not even get the opportunity for the check.
As always better ask your GM about it and make sure that he always applies the same rule to both PCs or NPCs.
- EDIT : this thread should be in the Rules forum IMO
Since everybody seems to disregard this, I'll quote it once more:
This is an excellent point. Given that Spell-Like Abilities are mechanically identical to spells (excluding where the rules specifically differentiate), then it must be noticeable to an observer as a spell-like ability (by RAW). Why? Because strict RAW says you can use the Spellcraft skill to identify a spell as it's being cast. Since spell-like abilities function as spells wherever they aren't defined as differing, they must be readily apparent in some fashion to the trained eye. Also note that identifying a spell with Spellcraft does not require any magical senses, merely a successful skill check.
I side with Jason Buhlman/Grenmeera on the idea that this means there's some form of observable phenomena associated with spells (and, consequently, spell-like abilities). However, the exact mechanics of why it's identifiable as Detect Evil to anyone making the DC 16 Spellcraft check are up to the individual GM.
This means that everybody, even people not trained in Spellcraft, will perceive that a spell was cast on them. People without Spellcraft only have no idea what spell that was.
So, probably glowing eyes for the Paladin or the like.
This is clearly a wrong reading of the rules regarding Spellcraft, as Jason Bulmahn pointed out in the linked post last page.It's clearly silent. It clearly requires no hand gestures or holy symbols. You have to concentrate on them for ~3 seconds, that's it.
You wouldn't be able to identify it with Spellcraft because there's no casting involved. Spellcraft only lets you identify casting, and the paladin is not casting anything, only activating an ability.
Jason Bulmahn was talking about spells being cast without components. That is not the issue here, we're talking about using a spell-like ability. Spell-likes are not cast, they are activated. There is no mechanic for identifying an activated ability.
If you are invisible, and someone is looking at you with true seeing, do you know you have been spotted? I think that if the answer is no, then detect evil is not noticeable.
Not only is detecting evil on everyone you meet rude, If I were GM, over use might have an affect on your alignment or access to paladin powers.
And this is why playing a paladin can be frustrating. Often the player and GM can have wildly different views on what counts as lawful good acts, and the GM can punish the player pretty badly just because the player has a different interpretation of lawful good.
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Not only is detecting evil on everyone you meet rude, If I were GM, over use might have an affect on your alignment or access to paladin powers.And this is why playing a paladin can be frustrating. Often the player and GM can have wildly different views on what counts as lawful good acts, and the GM can punish the player pretty badly just because the player has a different interpretation of lawful good.
Honestly, I can't ever remember hearing a better example of "lawful stupid" than what Victor suggested. Should a paladin also blind himself because the eyes are easily fooled by low-level magic? Should he deafen himself because of the existence of Ghost Sound?
How I play it in my game:
paladin's detect evil spell-like ability...
The paladin must concentrate and stare intently at the subject for several seconds to look for an evil aura. While it isn't obvious to the casual observer why the paladin is staring intently at something, I allow a Spellcraft check (DC = 15 + spell level = 16) or a Knowledge (religion) check (DC 20) for an observer to realize what the paladin is doing.
Paladin's Smite Evil class ability...
To use the ability, the paladin has to invoke it by prayer. Most paladins will do this verbally, (possibly in conjucntion with an Intimidate check), but it can be done silently. As a special effect, I say that the paladin's weapon glows with holy power while the Smite is in effect.
How I play it in my game:
paladin's detect evil spell-like ability...
The paladin must concentrate and stare intently at the subject for several seconds to look for an evil aura. While it isn't obvious to the casual observer why the paladin is staring intently at something, I allow a Spellcraft check (DC = 15 + spell level = 16) or a Knowledge (religion) check (DC 20) for an observer to realize what the paladin is doing.Paladin's Smite Evil class ability...
To use the ability, the paladin has to invoke it by prayer. Most paladins will do this verbally, (possibly in conjunction with an Intimidate check), but it can be done silently. As a special effect, I say that the paladin's weapon glows with holy power while the Smite is in effect.
I like these rules.
What about detect magic? Would that reveal the fact the paladin is in the midst of using detect evil?
If you are invisible, and someone is looking at you with true seeing, do you know you have been spotted? I think that if the answer is no, then detect evil is not noticeable.The person in that position gets to make Sense Motive and/or Perception checks. Then again, the incoming Flame Strike might be all the clue you need.
Sounds like a fair ruling to me. I would make that the case for detect evil. If I were evil, and engaged in conversation with a paladin, then I would try to sense motive to see if he suspects me.
Am I missing something here?
According to the chart under Detect Evil on the PRD. (which the Paladin's ability mimicks)
It states that creatures with HD 4 or less have no discernable aura.
So NO you can't go through a city scanning every person because 95% of the NPC population isn't "strong" enough to register on your radar.
Am I missing something here?
According to the chart under Detect Evil on the PRD. (which the Paladin's ability mimicks)
It states that creatures with HD 4 or less have no discernable aura.So NO you can't go through a city scanning every person because 95% of the NPC population isn't "strong" enough to register on your radar.
You can still scan every person. It just means that when your evildar does ping, you know it's someone important.
If you are invisible, and someone is looking at you with true seeing, do you know you have been spotted? I think that if the answer is no, then detect evil is not noticeable.
The casting of Tree Seeing is noticeable, however the ongoing effect is not necessarily. I would say the same of Detect Evil.
doesn't stop you from scanning, though, an invisible person a pally could NOT detect on, no LOS
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though, an invisible person a pally could NOT detect on, no LOS
The cone-version Detect Evil still works, it just takes 3 rounds. But yes, not the targeted version.
You can still scan every person. It just means that when your evildar does ping, you know it's someone important.Am I missing something here?
According to the chart under Detect Evil on the PRD. (which the Paladin's ability mimicks)
It states that creatures with HD 4 or less have no discernable aura.So NO you can't go through a city scanning every person because 95% of the NPC population isn't "strong" enough to register on your radar.
Yes you could. But it becomes a much less valid option at that point especially when it takes several rounds and is noticeable. Not that the NPC's will know what you're doing other than staring a lot.
I'm really glad that creatures below 4hd don't register because if they did Detect Eveil would be REALLY broken for a lvl 1 spell. It's a good balancing mechanic.
Yes you could. But it becomes a much less valid option at that point especially when it takes several rounds and is noticeable. Not that the NPC's will know what you're doing other than staring a lot.
I'm really glad that creatures below 4hd don't register because if they did Detect Eveil would be REALLY broken for a lvl 1 spell. It's a good balancing mechanic.
It DOESN'T take several rounds (it's a move action for the targeted version) and it's NOT noticeable (all it requires is for you to concentrate on the target - it doesn't even say you have to be looking at them.)
I'm really glad that creatures below 4hd don't register because if they did Detect Eveil would be REALLY broken for a lvl 1 spell. It's a good balancing mechanic.
Then again, there have been posters on these forums, screaming that disallowing them to detect any evil, no matter how small, totally breaks their Paladin concept... *ducks for cover*
so, basically: RAW: yes. RAI/houserule... depends....
I'm really glad that creatures below 4hd don't register because if they did Detect Eveil would be REALLY broken for a lvl 1 spell. It's a good balancing mechanic.Then again, there have been posters on these forums, screaming that disallowing them to detect any evil, no matter how small, totally breaks their Paladin concept... *ducks for cover*
Depends if they took an Oath archetype or belong to a certain order. The deity itself carries further paladin codes in Faiths of Purity as well.
doesn't stop you from scanning, though, an invisible person a pally could NOT detect on, no LOS
But don't you not even need LOS for detect evil? http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/d/detect-evil "The spell can penetrate barriers, but 1 foot of stone, 1 inch of common metal, a thin sheet of lead, or 3 feet of wood or dirt blocks it."
Doesn't the fact that it penetrates barriers and goes through 11 inches of stone or steel or 2 feet of wood imply that you can detect right through many buildings and doors with no line of sight?
so, basically: RAW: yes. RAI/houserule... depends....
Actually, I'm not that sure, RAW-wise.
While the scanning itself is most probably not producing any tell-tale signs, the Paladin might. I'm in with the Sense Motive camp (assuming that one is looking at, or otherwise observing the Paladin) .doesn't stop you from scanning, though, an invisible person a pally could NOT detect on, no LOSBut don't you not even need LOS for detect evil? http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/d/detect-evil "The spell can penetrate barriers, but 1 foot of stone, 1 inch of common metal, a thin sheet of lead, or 3 feet of wood or dirt blocks it."
Doesn't the fact that it penetrates barriers and goes through 11 inches of stone or steel or 2 feet of wood imply that you can detect right through many buildings and doors with no line of sight?
Actually, you'd need a good explanation to justify focusing on something you cannot see in the first place.
doesn't stop you from scanning, though, an invisible person a pally could NOT detect on, no LOSBut don't you not even need LOS for detect evil? http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/d/detect-evil "The spell can penetrate barriers, but 1 foot of stone, 1 inch of common metal, a thin sheet of lead, or 3 feet of wood or dirt blocks it."
Doesn't the fact that it penetrates barriers and goes through 11 inches of stone or steel or 2 feet of wood imply that you can detect right through many buildings and doors with no line of sight?
if the paladin was casting the spell, you would be correct. however, the ability says you have to focus on a person/item
This is what you look like when you detect evil.
I'm in this camp...
and it's NOT noticeable
Except, of course, that it is.
It DOESN'T take several rounds (it's a move action for the targeted version) and it's NOT noticeable (all it requires is for you to concentrate on the target - it doesn't even say you have to be looking at them.)Yes you could. But it becomes a much less valid option at that point especially when it takes several rounds and is noticeable. Not that the NPC's will know what you're doing other than staring a lot.
I'm really glad that creatures below 4hd don't register because if they did Detect Eveil would be REALLY broken for a lvl 1 spell. It's a good balancing mechanic.
True, you can get a result in one round. But you have to have line of sight to the target. Doesn't the combat chapter say something about spell targets and line of sight? You can't just close your eyes in a room full of people and suddenly get a radar image of where everyone is in your mind. You have to see the person to see the aura around them. We use the terms ping and radar a lot but it isn't really like that.
Is it noticeable? Well, see the previous debate. I'm of the opinion that it's circumstantial. If someone has their back to you or your on the edge of their vision, then no it's not noticeable. But try staring at someone for a full 3 seconds and see if they don't notice.
I also have no problem with a Paladin attempting a skill check to try and hide or bluff what he is doing. Or you could have the observed make a perception check to notice.
Thematically maybe Paladins should get something stronger, but for a first level spell you already get a lot. Anything else and it should be higher level.
and it's NOT noticeableExcept, of course, that it is.
Let's see:
1) you can't hear it
2) you can't see it
3) you can't smell it
4) you can't taste it
5) you can't feel it
So how exactly are you noticing it?
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1) you can't hear it
2) you can't see it
3) you can't smell it
4) you can't taste it
5) you can't feel it
So how exactly are you noticing it?
Spidey-sense tingling?
*ducks for cover*
Let's see:
1) you can't hear it
2) you can't see it
3) you can't smell it
4) you can't taste it
5) you can't feel it
So how exactly are you noticing it?
The casting of a spell or spell-like ability? However you choose, because you CAN see it, hear it, smell it, taste it, OR feel it depending upon how the GM decides to describe it.
I've quoted the rules and a developer. Exactly why are you jumping to the conclusion that you cannot?
and it's NOT noticeableExcept, of course, that it is.Let's see:
1) you can't hear it
2) you can't see it
3) you can't smell it
4) you can't taste it
5) you can't feel it
So how exactly are you noticing it?
Actually now that I think about the wording it lays the ability out in rounds not actions which is 6 seconds minimum.
Seriously stare at a stranger or count 6 mississippi in your head, that's a surprisingly long time. If anyone in my field of vision is staring at me for that long, I'm probably going to take note.
I may not know what he's doing but I'm probably going to ask him "Dude, you're staring at me. Can I help you with something?" For example.
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I am not sure why there is any point to being subtle about smite evil -- if you don't attack the person you activated the smite on immediately afterwards, what was the point of doing it?
But in regard to detecting evil -- at the very least you should use it on anyone who joins your party on a long term basis initially and whenever their behavior gives you cause to reconsider their status. There is a reason that it can be a violation of your code to associate with evil creatures -- you have the means to identify and remove them.
In regard to detecting evil secretly -- that is what the rest of the party is for. Somebody who is paying close attention to you could figure out what you are doing and react before you are ready for them to -- so it is up to the rest of the party to distract them so that they are paying attention to your buddies instead of to you.
So how exactly are you noticing it?and it's NOT noticeableExcept, of course, that it is.Actually now that I think about the wording it lays the ability out in rounds not actions which is 6 seconds minimum.
Seriously stare at a stranger or count 6 mississippi in your head, that's a surprisingly long time. If anyone in my field of vision is staring at me for that long, I'm probably going to take note.
I may not know what he's doing but I'm probably going to ask him "Dude, you're staring at me. Can I help you with something?" For example.
probably closer to 2-3seconds... only a move action
Let's see:
1) you can't hear it
2) you can't see it
3) you can't smell it
4) you can't taste it
5) you can't feel it
So how exactly are you noticing it?
The casting of a spell or spell-like ability? However you choose, because you CAN see it, hear it, smell it, taste it, OR feel it depending upon how the GM decides to describe it.
I've quoted the rules and a developer. Exactly why are you jumping to the conclusion that you cannot?
Once again, the developer you quoted was not talking about spell-like abilities. You cast a spell. You activate a spell-like. These are different things, and you can't use Spellcraft on an activated ability when it doesn't involve spellcasting.
The spell says "You can sense the presence of evil." I don't know about you, but when someone smells a peach, I can't look at that person and say "that guy is definitely smelling peach right now." If your GM wants to rule that it additionally makes a giant cone of white light that's clearly visible, I suppose that's his prerogative but I don't think it fits the text of the spell at all. Visible effects are not usually associated with Divination spells, except where it's explicitly mentioned in the text of the spell (such as Arcane Sight.)
True, you can get a result in one round. But you have to have line of sight to the target. Doesn't the combat chapter say something about spell targets and line of sight? You can't just close your eyes in a room full of people and suddenly get a radar image of where everyone is in your mind. You have to see the person to see the aura around them. We use the terms ping and radar a lot but it isn't really like that.
you don't need line of sight to use detect evil.
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/d/detect-evil
"If an aura is outside your line of sight, then you discern its direction but not its exact location."
True, you can get a result in one round. But you have to have line of sight to the target. Doesn't the combat chapter say something about spell targets and line of sight? You can't just close your eyes in a room full of people and suddenly get a radar image of where everyone is in your mind. You have to see the person to see the aura around them. We use the terms ping and radar a lot but it isn't really like that.you don't need line of sight to use detect evil.
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/d/detect-evil
"If an aura is outside your line of sight, then you discern its direction but not its exact location."
alright, I will quote it again...
Detect Evil (Sp)At will, a paladin can use detect evil, as the spell. A paladin can, as a move action, concentrate on a single item or individual within 60 feet and determine if it is evil, learning the strength of its aura as if having studied it for 3 rounds. While focusing on one individual or object, the paladin does not detect evil in any other object or individual within range.