The Witch and I (warning, long!)


Homebrew and House Rules

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First, a little preface.

I don't like the Witch class. I love the Witch class for the flavor, concept, the potential -- but I hate the way a lot of it has been implemented. Frankly, she needs polish, so-called "quality of life" changes, and overall balance to bring her in line with her established role and theme, especially if compared to the venerable staples of D&D spellcasting, the Cleric, Wizard, Sorcerer, Druid and Favored Soul / Oracle.

Spoiler:
The Slumber Hex is both too powerful and yet underwhelming at the same time. An at-will Sleep effect with no HD limit sounds powerful on the surface, until you discover that this means a subject can be awakened with a simple standard action, that sleep immunity is exceedingly common starting around mid levels, that immunity to [Mind Affecting] is the most common immunity in the game, and the Hex still doesn't allow you to try again. It is powerful, though, because Coup de Grace around level 1-5 is quite nasty. Having a strong crowd control effect available for every encounter is very handy, certainly, and it is universally agreed that Slumber is what low-level Witches will spend the vast majority of their turns using... which is bad game design when one "option" is so clearly "the best" that there is no real choice about whether to use it or not. I've seen a great many people suggesting modifications to Slumber's mechanic, the one I like the most would be Save or Fatigue 1st round, then Save or Exhausted 2nd round and finally Save or Sleep on the 3rd round (which is a much more organic, flavorful way to handle a creature "falling asleep" rather than instantly dropping to the ground, and yet Fatigue and Exhaustion are themselves useful status effects to cause while waiting for "the big one" to give you a Coup de Grace). This puts it more in line with such spells as Hold Person (keeping in mind that Slumber doesn't cost a spell slot to use, so it's fine if it would be a bit weaker), the Sleep spell itself would therefore be a better option for instant incapacitation at level 1, which gives the Witch other options to spend her "opportunity currency" on without them feeling like "trap options". Further, this would allow Slumber to scale better into end-game as Fatigue and Exhaustion are much less common immunities than Sleep after level 10 (preventing the Witch from feeling like she has wasted a Hex slot after she's leveled up).

The Flight Hex is incomplete. Compare to the school powers of an Air-specialist Wizard (which was published in the same book as the Witch class debuted), it seems obvious that at-will flight is missing around class level 10 or 11 (which is established through other sources to be the character level at which permanent flight can become available. For reference, see the Sylph race in the ARG or the spell Overland Flight which has an hours-per-caster-level duration providing de facto all-day flight for Witches without needing to spend a much more valuable Hex slot). I think simply bestowing at-will flight at her base land speed (similar to Overland Flight the spell, perhaps a bit slower) at Witch level 11 would be perfectly fine considering what characters around that level are capable of through items or class powers or spells. She would still have the option of using her minutes of the Fly effect if she wanted to move faster, and none of these options allows her to affect anyone but herself with the Hex, still. As a class, she relies on flight incredibly heavily for defense in combat, and it is easily countered with a simple bow and arrow... or a thrown rock.

The Healing Hexes are also unsatisfying. It would be entirely reasonable to allow the same Hex to scale with the Witch's class level rather than requiring two Hex slots to underperform. The theory goes like this: it's "free" healing, even though it can't be used more than once-per-day-per-target, and even though the Witch herself had to spend a Hex slot to gain the ability. If the player will use it often, the Hex could be "worth it", economically, compared to, say, a Wand, but it cannot really allow a Witch to do anything she couldn't already, or that an Oracle, for example, could not. That is, spending actions in combat to cast a Cure spell at touch range is a horrible horrible trap so the Hex does not provide power, only convenience. Spending a Hex slot for convenience wouldn't be all that bad -- if the Hex would continue to be convenient. Notice that Healing and Major Healing are separate Hexes. In other words, if the Witch wants a Cure Wounds Hex that remains relevant at all, she has to continue spending valuable Hex slots even though at Witch level 10 (when Major Healing becomes available) she's already able to cast Cure Critical Wounds, though the Hex doesn't scale to Cure Critical until level 15 when she's been able to cast the vastly better Heal spell for two levels already... If she didn't have to spend a second Hex slot to continue the scaling (a "rank up" in the Cure effect every 5 levels) then the plain ole Healing Hex might be an attractive option to compare against the likes of Misfortune and Slumber (because it does still have to compete for those Hex slots!). The Hex would still not scale very well through the character's career, but at least the player wouldn't have to pay twice for that crappy scaling. The convenience of on-demand emergency healing (remember, once per day per target...) is flat out not worth two Hex slots, one of them a Major Hex slot. It's a very plain Hex, could be quite fitting for a pure healer Witch, but power gamers knows that it's just not worth the slot until all the other "core" Hexes have been acquired, by which time, there aren't really any slots left for little luxuries.

Another oft-overlooked Hex is Ward. Since the bonuses it provides are typed, it does not stack with gear that targets may be wearing, and since the Witch cannot target herself with it, she can't use it to defer buying gear for those bonuses. At level 1-4, it might provide a little boon, but characters are very soon able to buy better gear for themselves which would overlap this Hex, and the worst is still to come: when the subject is hit or fails a save, the effect is dropped! Meaning that the Witch will have to spend an action in combat to reapply the Ward which simply can never be as effective as spending that action on Slumber or some other "stop doing damage to my friends right now, please" effect. I would propose a few changes to this one. One possibility is to make the bonuses un-typed, but remove the scaling and add a duration (perhaps Int Mod turns or Witch class level rounds) and allow it to be extended with Cackle. If you feel that a measly +2 is negligible at level 16 (when the Hex as-written would provide +4), then just allow it to scale again (because, really, +4 is still weak at level 16!) and give it a shorter duration (perhaps set at 3 rounds or something similar). Or remove the clause which drops the effect once the subject has been hit -- because a "protection" that disappears as soon as you start needing it isn't much of a protection. And she can still have only one Ward up at a time.

The Speak In Dreams and Nightmare Hexes really seem like they should be folded into the same Hex slot, and the spells which they duplicate should be much much lower level spells than they are currently, too. Not that they are plain bad, just that they are overrated in power, in my opinion. Giving the Witch Speak In Dreams early on (with communication scaling up as she levels, allowing her to communicate with more people or more often or whatever?) and then Nightmare somewhere around level 10 would make this (if it were a single Hex) much much more competitive for its slot. Really doesn't seem attractive that a character designed around haunting targets dreams (already a pretty weak choice for a PC to spend character build currency to do) would have to spend two Hexes to be able to do it.

The Cook People Hex is also underwhelming, having very limited effect, and being altogether too specific. I think it should be generalized into a more flexible "cooking" style Hex, and combined with the Poison Steep Hex, wherein the Witch can proffer various vittles for a variety of other effects if eaten. For example, Shrink and Enlarge Person (a la Alice In Wonderland), Charm Person/Monster (a la the turkish delights in Narnia), to provide Lesser Restoration or Cure Blindness (in line with the Neutralize Poison and Cure Disease effects of the original Hex) and other things like that. The requirement of literally consuming humanoid corpses is a little bit too specific, making the original Hex simply more suitable for an NPC than a player character. The requirement of the Cauldron Hex really should relax this "food" Hex to simply producing these morsels, perhaps limited times per day (a number of cookies based on Witch class level?) or with a simple gold piece cost. Perhaps name the Hex something like Enchanted Confections Hex and ta dah! Your Brew Potion Feat finally became worth something because you can create temporary consumables for a small range of very specific effects. A Major Hex that can be worth its salt compared to the likes of Waxen Image and Hoarfrost. Wouldn't make the Witch any more powerful really in combat, but would serve to expand the convenience factor of her out-of-combat party support and utility in a unique and, dare I say it, flavorful way.

Hidden Home and Witch's Hut should be merged into the same Hex and moved down one "tier" each. Weak though theoretically functional effects, they are neither of them worth a Hex slot on their own though they're too flavorful to give up entirely. Compare to the Mage's Magnificent Mansion type spells and keeping in mind that a Witch is giving up combat power to choose this Hex. Trying to make the class more PC-oriented rather than a pure NPC Villain template. At first she just hides her cottage (Mirage Arcana is a mid-level spell because you can cast it quickly enough to make use of it, not so a Hex which takes a full day to "cast" which has other limits), and then around level 10, the House kicks down a wall to build the Chicken Legs wing... scaling and flavor, all in one juicy Hex.

New Hexes have been recommended from time to time on Paizo's own forums, /tg/ and elsewhere, and I do think that more, balanced, options could only help, especially since the Witch is still limited in her total selection. I think the Disney movies probably have a lot of potential in there somewhere if we could figure out how to stat them in a balanced way. Overall, I feel that the Hexes should all scale better over the course of levels as most of them become obsolete soon after they are available with the ones which don't being the clearly superior choices. Some examples, some better and some worse than existing options, but all have interesting character implications and none worse than, say, growing long finger nails or sniffing children:

Transfixion Hex (Su): Target within 30’ makes a will save or is unable to make a move action for a number of rounds equal to the Witch's level. When the Witch reaches 8th level, a transfixed target is unable to travel using dimensional means, as per the spell dimensional anchor. A creature that successfully saves against this hex is immune to it for 1 day.

I like this one, it's not nearly as immediately powerful as Slumber and yet serves well for its particular purpose. One can easily imagine the Witch "pinning" the target's shadow to the ground or some such fluff, and it's also the sort of thing Witches in myth are often seen to do. It's perfectly fine even at level 1, keeping in mind that Hold Person forbids any actions at all and is available at character level 3. A 30' range is still a harsh limiter on his Hex, but overall not too bad.

Drawing inspiration from the various spell lists, some effects strike my fancy as being easy to duplicate and re-scale to be suitable as Hexes--

Wind Walker Hex (Su): The Witch can assume a gaseous form (as the spell) for 1 minute / level, divided as she sees fit, in 1-minute increments. She can only target herself with this Hex. At level 11, the Witch can spend 2 minutes of this Hex to gain the benefit of a Wind Walk effect, as the spell, for an hour. This Hex is similar in function to the Flight Hex, but compliments, rather than overlaps. Unlike Flight, this Hex is pure defense and utility, and not very usable in combat. It allows the Witch to sneak around a little bit, perhaps, and to travel quickly at later levels (keeping in mind that she can cast Teleport the spell at level 9, this Hex provides a cheaper but slower means of self-only fast travel at a later level). Gaseous Form is not normally available to a level 1 character, but when compared to Slumber or other Hexes, this is definitely not one of the strongest effects available to a power gamer Witch, and is much more flavor and roleplay oriented in purpose.

Weather Control should start out offering minor effects like Alter Winds at first, and then gradually adding a few more like Hurricane Blast and the calling of stormy lightning bolts using a common pool of charges per day based on the Witch's class level (for example 1hr/level = 1 windy blast = 1 lightning bolt), spent 1 charge at a time as is usual for Pathfinder. And then finally giving the Witch Control Weather as usual for the Hex (keeping in mind that it's already a spell on her spell list, so spending a Hex slot just to be able to use a highly situational spell was a trap option). Even with all these, Druids would still be just plain better at controlling the weather with way more and better spells to accomplish the task. Still, the narrative archetype of the "weather witch" is very firmly established, and if some of the un-thematic spells like Lightning Bolt and Chain Lightning were removed from the Witch's default spell list, this Hex would gain a lot to make it an attractive option. Combines well with the Flight and proposed Wind Walker Hexes to make a great secondary theme for a character. Possibly this Hex should be bundled into a Class Archetype.

Visions should be more rigorously defined, though I like the basic idea. The problem is that so many similar auguries already appear on the Witch's spell list and perform much better. Perhaps redefining the Hex to function more like a seance, once-per-week calling forth a spirit to give pronouncements and answer a number of questions (Witch's Int mod?) posed by the group, allowing social skill checks to affect the replies... Such a thing sounds much more in line with what a mid-level PC diviner should be able to do. Contrast with the Summon Spirit Grand Hex which calls forth a ghost to actually do things, this Major Hex would only get answers to questions like an Augury or Commune spell. Compare to the evil queen in Snow White who performs similar feats, asking the spirit bound to her mirror to answer questions of various sorts.

Curse of Petrification, Fort Save or Petrify target within 30' sounds like a fine Grand Hex, considering that the spell would have been available long since (level 11) in the character's career and that it couldn't be attempted again for 24 hours. Compare to the other Grand Hexes like Death Curse, Eternal Slumber and Forced Reincarnation. This Hex has more than a bit of Jadis, the witch of Narnia fame, again. Or if rock hard men isn't really to your liking, an identical Hex of Baleful Polymorph is just as fitting and similarly effective. The spell is normally available to Witches at level 9... Witches of myth and legend are very commonly said to transform those who displease them into small helpless animals.

Pox, a regular Hex which maybe should replace the Infected Wounds Major Hex, would duplicate the effect of the Contagion spell, though perhaps at a range of 30 feet since it certainly isn't more powerful than even the revised Slumber or Evil Eye regular Hexes, though it does cause real Ability score damage like other Major Hexes can. This is with the Blight Hex in mind to give some options for the more pustulent malefactor character type. Greater Contagion is on the Witch's spell list, though the lesser version is not for some reason, even though it's not a particularly powerful effect. Keep in mind that the Hex would use the Witch's Hex save DCs, not like the spell which could be much higher (due to GSF:Necro and Heighten, on top of the +5 from using the Greater Contagion version of the spell).

Terrorize, a Hex similar to a single-target Fear spell, is very thematically appropriate, and mechanically sound given the usual restrictions of Hexes (30' range, one attempt per target per day, and so on). I can easily see this one being a regular Hex, but a good argument might be made for it being a Major Hex -- I'd be fine with either. Though if Fear would be made a Major Hex, that's a damn good argument for bumping Slumber up a tier into Major as well since the Sleeping condition is way more serious than just panic.

Figments, a Major Hex allowing the Witch to create Illusions on a time-unit-per-class-level basis. She can replicate the effects of a Mirage Arcana for 1 minute per class level, split up as she chooses in 1 minute chunks. Probably a different type of Illusion spell effect, taking care to not provide a rank of the Image family of spells too early or too late. Probably just Persistant Image for 1 minute per Witch level per day, divvied up as she likes. It just strikes me as silly that the class so focused on "deception, manipulation and dark magic" gets almost no Illusion spells at all...

You have to keep in mind that there is quite a limit to how many Hexes a Witch can actually pick up, and they are all competing against each other for those slots. The rest of the Hexes, the ones which aren't obvious jokes / for NPCs only (like growing your nails out, sniffing children (uhh... ew?) and reading Tarot cards), aren't too terrible, and with the above changes, a Witch should be much better able to keep up as a party's "primary caster". I just think there is so much space available to make some really interesting gameplay with the Witch's Hex class feature, it just doesn't seem like the developers took the opportunity to make the class as fleshed-out as it could be with a little more work. All one has to do to see how the Witch needs changes is to ask what she can do that a Wizard with ranks in UMD for wands or scrolls of healing -- can't. The options for customization and specialization could be there, and if implemented, the Witch would be a very interesting class.

Provided...

That something is done about the Patrons.

Just as universal as the whining about Slumber is the complaint that Patron options suck. Deception, Time, Healing and Shadows are almost the only viable options since all the others offer either trash or spells which the Witch already has access to via her spell list. Worse, there isn't really any overarching theme for them with most Patrons offering spells seemingly at random with no regard to the Witch's class theme or whether the Patrons can compete amongst each other.

So I'll propose four Patrons for the Witch based on a coherent and cohesive flavor chunk:

Spoiler:
The lunar triumvirate of Maiden, Matron and Crone, represented as the Gibbous (youth or growth), Full (peak of life and maturity, light) and Crescent (bitter wisdom and doom) moon, respectively, seems to lack an important element in the portrayal of Witches and the phases of the lunar cycle. Interestingly, the seasonal and solar cycles also have a fourth phase, and all of these various cycles are commonly referred to or revered in myths, legends and lore about Witches and "the ancient way".

The Missing Phase: the New Moon.

Why is it that only a triumvirate is usually mentioned as metaphor for the phases in life? It is evident after only a little thought that there still remains a fourth aspect: the aspect of non-existence, being either pre-birth or post-death, and it is strongly suggested by the nature of being a cyclical or circular arrangement, that these are in fact simply different ways of looking at the same thing.

The New Moon is both the repose of the previous cycle and the burgeoning genesis of a new one.

It is also a time of mystery, of the unknowable. The New Moon is invisible, departed from the cosmos, absent from the court of the heavens. In this way, the New Moon is an embodiment of mystery and secrets, both at once potential revelation, a secret preparing to be shared, and a hidden face, the covering-up of what was once plain to see. It is perhaps apart from the other phases of the Moon because they are all three visible, available to be interacted with, while the New Moon makes its presence felt in the world both in spite and because of its absence. The Triumvirate is often depicted as three women standing such that two of them present their profiles, but this still allows room for a fourth who stands hidden from view behind the three who are in the foreground and presented for view.

A goddess of the mysterious, the occult, the hidden, she represents the ultimately unknowable, that which is beyond, before and after life itself. In this way, she completes the cycle which living beings recognize as youth, adulthood and decrepitude. Variously represented by an empty, often ragged circle (the eclipse, or birth) or by a black disc (the void and oblivion) or even just as a shrouded woman facing away, she is a goddess which values her privacy, secrets, occult knowledge, and that which is hidden. She completes the cycle as the link between ending and beginning. The Maiden is youthful vigor, innocence and sex appeal, she is beginning and excited by the experience of life, full of ambition, changes, passions and desires. The Matron is mature, industrious and nurturing, the head of her family and home which she protects with all her being. The Crone is wise, experienced and bitter, for she feels death's approach.

Thus, the sacred Torc has an opening, even as it is a circle. It represents the severely Crescent Moon which is both the end and the beginning of the lunar cycle, and yet also encompasses the space between them, continuous as a circle despite an apparent gap.

New Witch Patrons:

The Maiden:
2nd -- Protection from Arrows
4th -- Resist Energy
6th -- Beast Shape I
8th -- Freedom of Movement
10th -- Beast Shape III
12th -- Joyful Rapture
14th -- Greater Polymorph
16th -- Earthquake
18th -- Wish

The Matron:
2nd -- Endure Elements
4th -- Lesser Restoration
6th -- Protection From Energy
8th -- Restoration
10th -- Life Bubble
12th -- Antimagic Field
14th -- Greater Restoration
16th -- Protection From Spells
18th -- True Resurrection

The Crone:
2nd -- Anticipate Peril
4th -- Defending Bone
6th -- Halt Undead
8th -- Malicious Spite
10th -- Breath Of Life
12th -- Undeath To Death
14th -- Control Undead
16th -- Create Greater Undead
18th -- Energy Drain

The Veiled:
2nd -- Vanish
4th -- Undetectable Alignment
6th -- Blacklight
8th -- Greater Invisibility
10th -- False Vision
12th -- Antilife Shell
14th -- Sequester
16th -- Orb Of The Void
18th -- Time Stop

Note that these four Patrons expand the Witch's spell list thematically and with useful spells, all, for purposes which the Witch finds herself otherwise lacking in capability. The Maiden provides the exceedingly valuable defensive spells Protection From Arrows, Freedom of Movement and Resist Energy, shoring up the glaring weakness of the Witch's spell list: defense. It also provides Wish and three shape-changing spells which mythological Witches are almost always depicted as being capable of, but which the default Witch spell list conspicuously lacks. Being spells, and thus subject to all the rules that spellcasting implies on top of costing spell slots per day, a Witch of The Maiden doesn't step on the Druid's Wild Shaping toes too much, though it would make the two classes perform similarly. And there's nothing wrong with that.

The Matron provides the Restoration family of spells (just like the pre-existing Healing Patron does) to allow a focused Witch to serve the party in place of a Cleric (which the Druid and Oracle are both able to do, but the Witch could not otherwise with her default spell list), and also a variety of other highly-situational defensive options in Antimagic Field and Protection From Energy. True Resurrection is another very important "healer" type spell which even a high level Witch with the Life Giver Hex could not duplicate. Not as powerful as the general-purpose Wish, it is still a far more functional spell for a high level healer to have, suiting the Matron's design purpose of collapsing the Healer Patron into a more satisfying "support Witch" role.

The Crone doesn't appear at first blush to really hold a candle to the previous two until you realize that defense and healing are not the Witch's only weaknesses: she is also incredibly vulnerable to the undead because they are immune to a vast majority of her abilities and spells. The Crone offers a low level Witch the all important Halt Undead spell, without which a Witch could be taken down with nothing but a mob of weak skeletons. Defending Bone is there for a smattering of defense for the Necromantically-flavored Crone Patron, and there is also Breath Of Life so that she can provide at least a little (thematically appropriate) emergency support to her allies without stepping on the toes of The Matron. Undeath To Death and Control Undead bring to maturity The Crone's confrontation with the implacable, inevitable dead. For late game, Energy Drain is what the wise debuffer will use early and often, but the Witch class, for all her focus on debuffs, somehow does not have by default.

The Veiled is an intimate, personal, selfish Patron, providing spells which benefit the Witch herself and shoring up still more holes in the Witch's spell list. Invisibility does not appear on this Patron's list, leaving that crucial Illusion to the other arcanists in the party, but she does still get Vanish for emergency defense and Greater Invisibility which serves as her token, if flexible, support spell. Seemed strange that Witches, a class all about offensive battlefield control and "dark magic" wouldn't get any Darkness spells, so Blacklight makes an appearance to provide the Witch with more flexibility (though she still cannot counter Darkness effects on her own!). Other spells on this Patron's list serve to make this the Patron of secrets: Undetectable Alignment and False Vision do a little to alleviate the Witch's lack of ability to be the sort of "behind the scenes manipulator" that her spell list and Hexes strongly imply she should be. Sequester and Orb Of The Void provide some situational offensive punch while remaining thematic, and Antilife Shell and Time Stop give a Witch of The Veiled crucial breathing room for end-game fights that would overpower her quickly otherwise. I felt that Time Stop was highly thematic and yet also prevented this Patron's spell pool being too weak when compared against the others.

It may seem as though these four Patrons provide "too many good spells" all total, but keep in mind that a Witch can only choose one!

All four shore up a specific weakness in the Witch class, but since she can only choose one, this group of Patrons provides for satisfying build options while also avoiding the pitfall of removing all the class's weaknesses. This forces the player to make tough choices and rewards her for it better than the default Patron lists which all feel like traps or "half-assed" options, i.e., like no good choices at all. Further, these Patrons force/allow the player to specialize in a way that Wizards or Clerics do not need to, which I think we agree makes for much more satisfying spellcasters both in terms of game balance and character design. Choosing how to augment your character's abilities is always gonna feel better to a player than choosing "how to suck the least".


Now open for discussion and contribution.

Keep the caster-hating out. This thread is focused on how to iterate the design of the Witch class into a more polished, fully fleshed out state to match the older designs which have had the benefit of some decades of work. If you don't like casters in general, feel that they're too powerful, or if you just wanna argue that Witches need only "nerfs" to mollify your narrow view of why "zomg witches are way op, remove all their Hexes and halve their spells per day pl0x", then just move on, please.

For right now, a special effort on introducing ideas for new Hexes which is the area most crucial and, to Paizo's chagrin, lacking.

Dark Archive

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I think the Witch is fine, overall.

Everyone I've spoken to who played one absolutely adored it. A spellcaster who can effectively use spells (yes, I'm aware Hexes aren't actually spells) every round? No need for using cantrips or crossbows to pretend to be contributing? Sounds awesome to me.


Seranov wrote:

I think the Witch is fine, overall.

Everyone I've spoken to who played one absolutely adored it. A spellcaster who can effectively use spells (yes, I'm aware Hexes aren't actually spells) every round? No need for using cantrips or crossbows to pretend to be contributing? Sounds awesome to me.

The goal here is game design. Just because some people arrive with anecdotes of enjoying having "lolinfinitespells" doesn't mean that the class doesn't have a lot of things that need fixing. Similarly, the thread isn't really meant for those who are satisfied with a fundamentally broken class already.

Grand Lodge

I use a Elements patron witch and find it gives me decent blaster capability.

I do agree that some of the patrons seem slapped together but on the other hand witches appear to take from many spell lists - its not as damage-riffic as a wizard but there's a hell of a lot more diversity there. Patrons just additional 'free' spells, some of which are more useful than others - sorcerers suffer from the same issue.

I think not all hexes are created equal and thats a bit of an issue for me but overall I think its a decent class. The only thing I'd reflavour is 'Cackle' - sure its stereotypically expected but some times you want a different feel for your witches.

As for your new Patron offering? Nice work - they fit the witches mythos and are pretty decent.


I like this.

In my houserules, witches pick from three archetypes and that determines their casting stat.

Youth/Maiden = Charisma

Father/Mother = Wisdom

Elder/Crone = Intelligence

Dark Archive

Aunt Tony wrote:
Seranov wrote:

I think the Witch is fine, overall.

Everyone I've spoken to who played one absolutely adored it. A spellcaster who can effectively use spells (yes, I'm aware Hexes aren't actually spells) every round? No need for using cantrips or crossbows to pretend to be contributing? Sounds awesome to me.

The goal here is game design. Just because some people arrive with anecdotes of enjoying having "lolinfinitespells" doesn't mean that the class doesn't have a lot of things that need fixing. Similarly, the thread isn't really meant for those who are satisfied with a fundamentally broken class already.

...Fundamentally broken? Have you SEEN the Monk or Rogue?


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Umbral Reaver wrote:

I like this.

In my houserules, witches pick from three archetypes and that determines their casting stat.

Youth/Maiden = Charisma

Father/Mother = Wisdom

Elder/Crone = Intelligence

Developing entire archetypes is something that should be done after the base class has reached a satisfying level of balance and completeness without the silliness that is Slumber spam every round of combat for 8 levels followed by 12 levels of Cackle and SoD du jour. Because right now, as effective as that may be for the majority of combats -- the game is not only about one-off encounters and theoretical duels. The class can and should allow for more than just one spammed gimmick, which is what her Hex and spell list really amounts to.

And this is not, in fact, mutually exclusive with the goal of having highly stylized spellcasters, I say. =)

Down with One Wizard To Rule Them All, let's have an actual variety of powerful and differentiated spellcasters, please! The Witch was a watered down taste and I want more.

Starting by doing the Witch proper justice.

Helaman wrote:
Patrons just additional 'free' spells, some of which are more useful than others - sorcerers suffer from the same issue.

But the purpose of the Witch's Patrons is not just to grant some random spells that you don't have to buy. They can, should and were meant to be more than that -- but weren't.

So I dropped these here for the community to use if you please.

Helaman wrote:
I think not all hexes are created equal and thats a bit of an issue for me but overall I think its a decent class. The only thing I'd reflavour is 'Cackle' - sure its stereotypically expected but some times you want a different feel for your witches.

I don't think it's possible to say that a player may want "a different feel for the witch" and that Cackle is the only thing holding the class back from that.

Helaman wrote:
As for your new Patron offering? Nice work - they fit the witches mythos and are pretty decent.

I want these four to serve as a sort of benchmark for what all Patrons should be:

1. Flavorful, with background and yes mythos to establish them as an important factor in the Witch character's life, not just an ignored blurb barely scribbled in haste on the margin of a character sheet

2. Provide for fundamental expansions of the Witch's capability to reward character building in a healthier way than "you have to choose the Deception Patron if you don't want to just pick an outright horrible choice"

3. Inspire characters to be more intense than just simple paper cutouts of dungeon-punk murder hobos


Same here. I've never seen ANY indication that the Witch was as "fundamentally broken" as you claim.

You pointed out all of her bad Hexes, yes, but failed to mention all of the really good, some even amazingly good, Hexes.

Her spell list is based around debuffs (and a smattering of Debuff Removers, which is nice). That's just fine. Especially since, with many of those Hexes you neglected to mention, they're almost guaranteed to work, even at high levels. Debuffing is always a very important part of the game, and effectively doubles the benefit gained from the party buffer, like the Bard or Cleric.

As for the Patrons, I haven't looked at all of them. The ones I have looked at have ranged from really good to really bad though, which puts them roughly in line with a Cleric's Domains or Oracle's Mysteries, so I don't see the problem there either.

There's a gigantic difference between "This class is great but some of the options aren't as good as others" and "This class is OMG so bad it's functionally unplayable".


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Whether the witch is actually unplayable or not doesn't matter. If there are ways it could improve, or ways in which it deviates from the norm without good reason there is still work to be done.
"Good enough" =/= "perfect".

You've done nothing to refute any of the guy's specific problems and you've made no comment on his proposed changes. All you've done is state that other classes have much bigger problems and told him that he's wrong and that he should stop on the basis of a single piece of subjective, anecdotal information.

The worst thing about this place is that whenever someone suggests something the LEAST bit controversial, a guy like you tells them to stop or demands they justify what they're doing, because "it looks fine as it is to me".
That's not advice. It's not constructive criticism. It is obstructive disagreement and it makes what should be a workshop into a battlefield.

You're half right when you say that's not how forums work; crap forums don't work like that. But useful, pleasant forums do. Please don't make this forum any less useful or pleasant.

Aunt Tony, your patrons seem pretty interesting and make a lot of sense. There's a lot of hex stuff to take in, but what I've managed to absorb seems reasonable.
Unfortunately, I'm not an expert on the witch, so the best feedback I can give you is that I don't see any problems.
Keep it up.

EDIT: Guys, you seem to be focusing on the problems of OTHER classes still. That doesn't make sense! So the cleric has some crappy domains? That's also a problem.
No matter where a class stands overall in terms of power, encouraging build diversity, completing ambiguous ability text, removing trap options and making it more fun to play are all valid goals.
Yes, some classes need help more than others, but but that's no reason not to work on them all.


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Heh, "I'm going to start a thread where I state my opinion about a class, call it 'open for discussion' and then tell everyone who doesn't want to talk about what I want to talk about to leave."

Nice work if you can get it.

I like the witch. It's flavorful and fun to play, while being quite capable of contributing meaningfully to combat, non-combat and is an absolute blast for role playing.

For some reason that's what I look for in a class. But what do I know, I love rogues.


I have to agree with Seranov. Your attitude is all wrong. It's not that you're being unreasonable in asking to stay on topic, but that you're being rude about it.

Seranov has a valid point (the witch doesn't need special attention). Still, rogue/monk issues aren't relevant to the discussion at hand.

That said, I think you've forgotten about one of the witch's most important hexes: Misfortune. Their other abilities are fine, and limited, as you've suggested, but that's not a flaw in their design. It's intentional.

Witches make great support characters (probably the best at de-buffing). A lot of their minor hexes are flavorful, but not really heavy on utility. If you feel they should receive some added bonuses, you're free to change things all you want.

@ Seranov: You should probably address some of Aunt Tony's points rather than just disagreeing with him.


Mortuum wrote:
...Please don't make this forum any less useful or pleasant...

I can't emphasis this enough.


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Adamantine, are we reading the same thread? All the guy he was talking to has done is say "no" in various elaborate ways. Rather than talking about the topic, he's just insisting it's not worth talking about. That's a kind of off-topic post.

While I wouldn't say the witch is broken beyond use, that doesn't make any of the suggestions in the original post useless.

Even if witches are "flavourful and fun to play, while being quite capable of contributing meaningfully to combat, non-combat and is an absolute blast for role playing"(and I agree that they are all those things), does that mean people shouldn't add new patrons or attempt to improve the internal balance of the hexes? I don't think so.

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He's completely allowed to state his opinions and defend them. I don't agree with those statements, and I'm allowed to say so. The fact of the matter is that there is, and should be, a priority of things that need to be fixed, and Witch is nowhere near the top of that list.

I haven't stopped anyone of stating their opinions, nor have I prevented anyone from proposing changes. He asked for opinions, I gave mine. I don't particularly care if he doesn't want to hear it.


I do like the idea of making some of hexes (Healing, especially) scale better.
Other than that, it's a full caster class with some neat special powers. It's hard to make that unplayably weak.

Some of the patrons are much better than others, but I don't think they make or break the class either. Pick for flavor and concept and don't worry too much about not being viable if you don't take one of the best ones. You're still a full caster.

A bunch of the hexes are obviously designed for NPC villains. That's OK too. Don't take them. Leave them there for the GM to use.

Personally, I didn't take Slumber when I played a witch. I went the Evil Eye/Cackle, Misfortune route and it worked well. More of a support character than a battle ender.

Some players even like the prehensile hair hex. Use it to try to turn the witch into a melee class.


But Seranov, you're not helping him make his stuff better or giving him objective reasons why it's not required, you're just saying you don't see why this thread needed to be made.
What's the point in expressing an opinion that's of no use to anyone? These threads are here so we can comment on content, not premise.
There are always going to be people who have no interest in a particular suggestion. We already know.

As to the priorities thing, I don't get where you're coming from. He had an idea for some witch modifications. Posting it is not going to slow down your endless monk and rogue threads.
The classes get attention roughly in proportion to the scope of their problems. That's how it should be. The class with the worst problems cannot and should not get ALL the attention.

Adamantine, I never said he wasn't being rude. He is. That's much blunter than I would be, and this is a pet peeve, if you couldn't tell.


It is true though, there are a lot of ..bland things in the witch class.

Not to mention there's new spells and feats with every single book but no new hexes.

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I'm not going to apologize for posting my opinion in a way that apparently offends you. If the OP wants to run these things this way in his games, sure, why not?

But I DM'd for a straight, un-houseruled, bog-standard Witch in my RotRL game, and he not only had a blast, he was one of the most powerful members of the party for his ability to debuff enemies to the point that they weren't as big of a threat to the rest of the party. He was plenty strong and the player expressed great joy at playing the character, both mechanically and in a roleplaying sense.

This, combined with pretty much everything else I've heard has led me to believe that the Witch class is well-made, powerful without being overpowering, and a lot of fun to play. The complete opposite of the OP's opinion.


While a lot of hexes aren't great a lot of class options aren't great. Not every arcana is great not every domain is good. You cherry picked a number of bad hexes. I find that a lot of people who have issues with the witch class just don't like the way it plays because they either don't understand its a debuff class or think arcane casters should be wizards. I agree more should be done with patrons but to me its more small fluff rewrite rather than a class redesign. There are a lot of classes standing in front of it needing a redesign: rogue gunslinger monk and to a lesser extent fighter.


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Seranov, it sounds like you're still missing my point, so I'll shut up now. I've ranted long enough.

proftobe, before I vanish, why is that cherry picking? Are you saying those hexes work well because the other hexes do? Why not make them all work well, if the problems can by identified?

Mortuum out.


No I said that some hexes were better than others but it seems you missed the point there are suboptimal choices on every list and the witch isn't any different.


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This thread.


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I'll state that my opinion is that the Witch seems fine as a class. Sure, it might have some lackluster options, but that seems to be true for all classes.

Trying to add to one class without looking at others can cause problems, as well. I haven't seen a Witch run into problems yet. I also don't recall them being overpowered. Sure, sometimes the Witch might fall a little behind. But then again, in regards to other classes, it doesn't ever become useless.

Ultimately, this is a team game, and classes need to have some sort of reasonable measure of contribution. The Witch can do that at most levels, most with only one Hex if all else fails.

I'll point out again, that you cannot look at the class in a vacuum. You must compare it to other classes if you are looking for balance.

Into mannerisms. Seranov stated his opinion. Aunt Tony came back with a post, which was fine. Aunt Tony stated that the class was 'fundamentally broken'. Seranov asked if he had heard about the rogue and monk, classes typically called broken.

At this point, Aunt Tony used some rather colorful words. I found that post to be a little rough and I think it escalated rather quickly. Tony, I do suggest that you tone down the words in your post. Saying that if Paizo cannot control their boards that you will not buy anymore products' seems very extreme to me. I will point out that I do not see any 'screeching loudmouthing' or anything particularly fired at you.

Again, all of this is my opinion. you are free to respectfully disagree with me.

Edit; I like the patrons you created. Flavorful and they seem pretty well thought out.

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I completely agree, Ripfang. Additionally I won't deny that the suggested new Patrons are nifty. I completely agree that giving them more flavor can only be a boon.

There's just no reason to get in such a tizzy about this whole subject, is all.


RipfangOmen wrote:

I'll state that my opinion is that the Witch seems fine as a class. Sure, it might have some lackluster options, but that seems to be true for all classes.

Trying to add to one class without looking at others can cause problems, as well. I haven't seen a Witch run into problems yet. I also don't recall them being overpowered. Sure, sometimes the Witch might fall a little behind. But then again, in regards to other classes, it doesn't ever become useless.

Ultimately, this is a team game, and classes need to have some sort of reasonable measure of contribution. The Witch can do that at most levels, most with only one Hex if all else fails.

I'll point out again, that you cannot look at the class in a vacuum. You must compare it to other classes if you are looking for balance.

By all means, work should be done to improve any aspect the game that needs work. But this thread is about the Witch and what can be done to make it better. This thread is not about the Rogue, the Monk, the Fighter, the Cavalier or any other class. This thread is about the Witch.

If you really must require that consideration be given to other classes, I could be convinced to start threads for every class in the game. But those would be other threads.

I haven't personally seen the Rogue or the Monk run into problems either. Their players seem perfectly capable of contributing to the game using those classes as written -- does this mean the Rogue and Monk shouldn't get design work done? NO. Does this mean that they're perfect as they are and nothing should be changed at all? NO. Does the Wizard being popularly known as a powerful class mean that it shouldn't get design work? NO.

Is the Witch class, in fact, perfect? NO.

I have never claimed, nor would I, that the Witch is useless, that she can't contribute to the game or the team, that she is simply weak, or anything like that. I do feel an acute sensation of being misunderstood because I am being blamed for having said things that I never even implied let alone explicitly declared. Perhaps before being told to shut up in my own thread, certain posters should take the time to read what I actually suggested be done to the Witch and why.

Expanding character design options? Heresy! Contributing to the community for free? Burn her! Wanting a class to be polished and to work better because it is possible to do? My god, what's the world come to?!

Next thing you know, the OP will destroy my pet class with his non-canon suggestions and free, optional contributions!

RipfangOmen wrote:
I like the patrons you created. Flavorful and they seem pretty well thought out.

One does wonder how that can seem to be a unanimous sentiment here and yet receive "Don't work on the Witch! Because I don't want you to!"

And, grateful as I am for the accolades... why isn't anyone actually responding to the thread topic.

That is -- where's the suggestions for new Hexes and rebalance of existing Hexes? You all have no ideas for new Patrons of your own? No thoughts on any proposed edits to the Witch's spell list, even?

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Aunt Tony wrote:
RipfangOmen wrote:

I'll state that my opinion is that the Witch seems fine as a class. Sure, it might have some lackluster options, but that seems to be true for all classes.

Trying to add to one class without looking at others can cause problems, as well. I haven't seen a Witch run into problems yet. I also don't recall them being overpowered. Sure, sometimes the Witch might fall a little behind. But then again, in regards to other classes, it doesn't ever become useless.

Ultimately, this is a team game, and classes need to have some sort of reasonable measure of contribution. The Witch can do that at most levels, most with only one Hex if all else fails.

I'll point out again, that you cannot look at the class in a vacuum. You must compare it to other classes if you are looking for balance.

[snip]

I have never claimed, nor would I, that the Witch is useless, that she can't contribute to the game or the team, that she is simply weak, or anything like that. I do feel an acute sensation of being misunderstood because I am being blamed for having said things that I never even implied let alone explicitly declared. Perhaps before being told to shut up in my own thread, certain posters should take the time to read what I actually suggested be done to the Witch and why.

Aunt Tony wrote:
Seranov wrote:

I think the Witch is fine, overall.

Everyone I've spoken to who played one absolutely adored it. A spellcaster who can effectively use spells (yes, I'm aware Hexes aren't actually spells) every round? No need for using cantrips or crossbows to pretend to be contributing? Sounds awesome to me.

The goal here is game design. Just because some people arrive with anecdotes of enjoying having "lolinfinitespells" doesn't mean that the class doesn't have a lot of things that need fixing. Similarly, the thread isn't really meant for those who are satisfied with a fundamentally broken class already.

Emphasis mine.

Aunt Tony wrote:

And, grateful as I am for the accolades... why isn't anyone actually responding to the thread topic.

That is -- where's the suggestions for new Hexes and rebalance of existing Hexes? You all have no ideas for new Patrons of your own? No thoughts on any proposed edits to the Witch's spell list, even?

It's likely because you jumped down people's throats the instant they decided to post their opinions, that happen to be not in line with your own.


Aunt Tony wrote:
And, grateful as I am for the accolades... why isn't anyone actually responding to the thread topic.

If I were to hazard a guess, it's because this thread isn't very pleasant. The lack of respect in this thread has probably turned more than one person away.

It's also quite apparent you're only interested with people agreeing with you. I mean, Rynjin and myself both pointed out some flaws in your perception of the class, and you ignored both posts.

You implied that these boards host a poor community, and that Paizo is to blame for not "controlling" things. Well, perhaps you should take your own advice and leave. If you're ready to boycott Pathfinder over something like this, I'd really have to question your maturity level... sorry if that sounds mean, but the truth is that your thread isn't very "nice".


Accusing Paizo about not caring about their community certainly didn't make me want to post. Remember, Paizo does care. Think about all the threads on this site. Do you really think they can watch all of them constantly?

I will say I liked you proposed changes to the hexes though. Now if only this was still the APG playtest, it might have happened.


I point out that I never said don't work on the Witch. Adding more hexes and patrons can never be a bad thing.

To my point about other classes, I didn't ask you to do other things. You stated that the class was fundamentally broken. I don't recall calling the Witch perfect. I don't recall telling you to shut up. You said it was open for discussion, which means opinions and such.

Why do you think its broken? Is this because of a few lackluster options?

Is it weak somehow? If so, compared to what? You brought about balance in regards to the cleric, druid, wizard. You may not want other to compare, but you already did so yourself. In order for balance to happen, you must at least try to look at the other classes.

Are you merely asking for more stuff for them? If so, you may need to step back and look at your wording.

Do you just dislike the fluff, or in your opinion, the lack thereof?

In short, I can still like your ideas even if I think the Witch class is fine mechanically.


RipfangOmen wrote:
I point out that I never said don't work on the Witch. Adding more hexes and patrons can never be a bad thing.

You've been very constructive, I may not have said how thankful I am for it over the din.

RipfangOmen wrote:
To my point about other classes, I didn't ask you to do other things. You stated that the class was fundamentally broken. I don't recall calling the Witch perfect. I don't recall telling you to shut up. You said it was open for discussion, which means opinions and such.

I used a quote from you to launch with, but sorry if you took it to mean that the entire following was aimed at you. That's my fault, then, sorry about that. To business?

RipfangOmen wrote:
Why do you think its broken? Is this because of a few lackluster options?

That alone would do it if "lackluster" was meant as euphemism (long finger nails and sniffing children... really?).

This part is a bit rambly concerning the consistency of her spell list:
I think the Witch is broken because, despite being a full caster with a hybrid spell list (adding healing spells to an almost entirely arcane selection and being typed as an arcane caster), her spell list does not by default allow her to perform the implied functions. That is to say, she doesn't have to be as good or better than the Cleric at healing or melee combat, and she certainly is not, but if she is to have "healing" added to her portfolio of advertised abilities, isn't it pretty strange that she, alone among healers, should lack the Restoration family, sans a Patron option? That would be ok, too, if it were the only case. I mean that I'm more or less ok with classes needing to choose a specialization in order to perform at the top of the class, as it were, within that specialization. But the Healing Patron provided does not compliment her default spell list with enough of the right spells for her to accomplish the task. Even a Hedge Witch with the published Healing Patron is still an inferior choice for the role of party healer, barely equaling Druids who don't have to specialize at all in order to fill the role (because the Witch had to spend way more: an Archetype and two Hexes, no less). Oracle blows her away, but that's because a properly built spontaneous spellcaster is the ultimate nanny.

And is Healer the only role at which Witches cannot perform despite their fluff descriptions, Hex descriptions and spell list theme? Why, no! Where are her defensive spells? The buffs she needs to stay alive if she should come under focused attack? The Cleric has decent armor and quite an impressive slew of buffs, indeed, consisting of mostly exactly that. The Druid gets Wild Shape and Leather armors on top of quite a few extremely potent defensive spells of its own. The Wizard spell list, on which the Witch spell list is obviously modeled, is famous for innumerable spells that adequately protect the Wizard -- but which make no appearance on the Witch list. The details could fill a book, but suffice to say that in my experience, the Witch has only to rely on Flight which, as has been said, is easily countered indeed. In a word, she lacks survivability. Even if she shouldn't be a class that is very good at party support (you have your work cut out of you, anyone who wants to claim this), shouldn't she at least not be quite such a sitting duck?

Her manipulative prowess? Overshadowed completely, no matter how she specializes with published options, as she makes do with only Evil Eye and Misfortune to make up for the entire school of Illusion which is both thematically suited to her description and mechanically necessary given that she sniffs children and then eats them... Or would you say that Hidden Home and the Disguise Hex can make up for the entire Image and Invisibility families of spells? Her Hex options duplicate so many of her spells, but Dream and Nightmare don't appear on her spell list just as a matter of spite? The school of Illusion is far more thematic to a "debuffing, manipulative dark magic user" than the Conjurations and Evocations she is loaded down with.

Why is Lightning Bolt and Chain Lightning on her spell list if she is supposed to be so narrowly focused on Evil Eye and Cackle spam? She never really struck me as the flashy nuker type anyway, and those have nothing related to her theme, nor are they the sort of thing that myth and legend describes the Witch as being capable of doing. Why isn't Contagion on her spell list though Greater Contagion is? She is supposed to consort with weird and wicked extradimensional powers and beings, but Planar Binding isn't on her list? Why wasn't Planar Ally included instead, then? And even if she were to call such a being, she would need Magic Circle vs. Alignment, would she not? How about Dimensional Anchor? Dismissal? Banishment? Commune? I don't think she should have the entire school of Conjuration, but surely those few spells would allow her to be more a proper Witch, calling forth "the Devil" and receiving fell favors and so forth than Stinking Cloud and Summon Monster?

Why does every Symbol-type spell in the game appear on her list, but not Permanency? Is she inept at spellcasting, indeed? Unable to make such crafts -- dare I say -- such Witchcrafts permanent the way other sorcerers do? I mean, I had thought the image of Witches drawing strange diagrams and signs to be the very definitive picture of Witchcraft (see the Ogham language and other mythological references to the literati of any given culture), but apparently she's supposed to be just a green-skinned, wart-faced Halloween Hag Cackling literally over her Cauldron. Gee, real mature image, that. As I've said before, Witches are universally described as shape changers -- but how many of the polymorphs does she really get vs. not? Would Beast Shape really have unbalanced her? Or, more likely, was it simple, human, oversight? Is it so criminal to suggest a community "patch" be compiled for her spell list so that game tables can look over it with greater ease and customize their games to suit the image of the Witch as she was so clearly intended? Do not Rules As Intended trump Rules As Written? What about FUN?

I am more than willing to forgive Paizo, the D&D spell list is huge. The other full casters have had decades of design, as I said, to flesh out their spell lists and polish up. The Witch is new. She can use all the help she can get to really establish herself as a pedigree of her own instead of just a modified, chopped down and inferior Wizard wannabe as so many have been before her.

I've mentioned a few of the Hexes, but Control Weather really bears more mentioning because I have to question a class mechanic which requires sacrificing mechanical power (it competes with all other Hexes for a slot) in order to duplicate a spell which the Witch is already capable of casting -- and without a full hour of dancing, at that. The Hex is simply a text book example of trap option, even if you want to claim that Finger Nails and Child Nose are obvious tidbits of humor.

Why Elemental Swarm instead of Gate? Aren't the Druid and Wizard supposed to be more oriented toward conjuring the manifested elemental powers of nature? I mean, what seems more weird and Witch-like -- calling a demon forth from the nether realms or summoning a mindless, natural manifestation of the Plane of Fire? And when it comes to it, why does she get Summon Monster, exactly, when she's not really a master of extraplanar entities? Her Patrons are unnamed and it is explicitly stated that she might never know their names or motives. Witches of legend are more often slaves of the devil than his master or mistress. And in any event, "poof there's a Celestial War Dog now flanking you for seven rounds" is decidedly less Witch-like than Planar Ally or Planar Binding... And Binding... That spell which is the ultimate Witch power... doesn't appear... Go read through the description of that spell and see how many Witches from the fairy tales you can identify by name, given that the spell can put targets to sleep until love's first kiss or chain them to a wall, compelling them against tampering with their shackles and so on and so forth.

She gets flashy ones like Cone of Cold and (Tenser's) Transformation? Why would she get Stormbolts but not Call Lightning and Call Lightning Storm, which are the more "nature and weather" oriented spells instead of Lightning Bolt and Chain Lightning? I mean, at least the "weather witch" trope is established. Obscure, and kind of steps on the Druid's toes, but at least established.

Is Nondetection or Blood Biography really un-Witch-like considering that she gets Mask Dweomer and Blood Transcription? Aura Of The Unremarkable -- Un-Witchy? Malicious Spite and Terrible Remorse? She gets Detect Scrying but not False Vision? Her (Imp)roved Familiar can cast Commune, but she can't, even though she gets a huge focus on Divinations? Would a Witch personally capable of casting Commune really unbalance the game, or was it an oversight? She can Cook People in her Cauldron to hand out gingerbread cookies, but can't cast Create Food & Water? She can Fly and Teleport, but can't use the "poor man's Astral Projection" Gaseous Form? She gets Augury and similar spells, but not the lowly Anticipate Peril? Not even Alarm? How many times has a Witch's talking skull or whatever served as her door-knocker / security system?

There is an Archetype that does a half-hearted job of making a Voodoo-style Witch, but... for such a common trope, is it really something that should be shuffled off into an alternative archetype, and at such a price? The Gravewalker Witch isn't considered a necromantic powerhouse, and she isn't played just to gain access to some easily UMD'd Create Minor Crappy Undead Minion spells, either -- for which you give up basically all of your Patron spells and your Familiar. The Poppet should really be offered as a Hex option available to all Witches, considering how common a trope it is, and that it is a weak trade against the potential for an Improved Familiar. I very strongly suggest, here now, that the Gravewalker's Poppet be folded into the Waxen Image Major Hex and just forget the rest of the archetype.

... The entire school of Illusion is essentially missing from the spell list of the "master manipulator" class who focuses so heavily on Enchantment and Divinations. Is Invisibility really something that the developers have never heard of a Witch being described capable of performing? Salem Witch Trials, just to name an account contemporary with the Cauldron-stirring Hag, features Invisible entities (very often the Witches themselves) quite prominently indeed. To say nothing of the association between Witches and the midsummer night dreams of the faeries and such... I'm talking about two thousand years plus of culture describing Witches as being master Illusionists... But no, she should throw lines of lightning from her fist and transform into a melee machine... So much for a narrowly specialized, thematic spellcaster.

RipfangOmen wrote:
Is it weak somehow? If so, compared to what? You brought about balance in regards to the cleric, druid, wizard. You may not want other to compare, but you already did so yourself. In order for balance to happen, you must at least try to look at the other classes.

this bit is more important:
Yes. The Witch is weak when compared to other full-casters. I didn't think this was so controversial or debatable. She paid the price -- she has the low hit dice, the lack of weapon and armor proficiency, the poor saves and so on. She is described as a full spellcaster, the equal of any of the others -- so why is it that her spell list lacks so many crucial spells? Not just thematic ones, as mentioned above, but also spells which are mechanically important in the game of D&D: the Restoration family, the Invisibility family, the Darkness and Daylight families, the Image family, the Shadow family, Haste and Slow, Dimensional Anchor, Stoneskin, Freedom of Movement, Cleanse, Spell Resistance, Contingency, Spell Turning, almost all of the Polymorphs, the Wishes and Miracles, the Spell Immunity family, Freedom/Imprisonment, Disjunction, Gate, Energy Drain, Time Stop, True Resurrection and Mass Heal... What about Resist Energy and Protection From Energy? Protection From Arrows? Endure Elements? Not all of these are thematically suitable for a vanilla Witch, and that's fine! But shouldn't they be offered via Patron or Archetype so that a player who finds him/herself the only spellcaster in a party can cover some of the basics?

I wanna talk a bit about the Circle vs. Alignment spells for a minute. Magic Circles are, need I say, quite established in culture as something that spellcasters do. In fact, even Paladins and Inquisitors can cast the spell -- but Witches, who are very commonly described in myth and legend, and who have a real mechanical need in their dealings with terrible extraplanar entities, as using magic circles cannot?? Is it really so egregious to suggest that this spell be patched into her spell list?

She doesn't even get Un/Hallow for crying out loud. Is no one really aware of the contemporary New Age Pagan movement in which so much emphasis is placed on hallowing the sacred spellcasting space or circle? This is like... stuff you can go downtown and see while walking on the street, what's the excuse for not knowing about mythological witches doing it? Not just hermetic mages after whom the Wizard class is styled, actual hags and such like the Graeae or fairy tale witches who inspired so much of the Witch class.

To be clear, I am perfectly fine with spell lists which are more narrowly focused than the kitchen sink which Wizards have become -- and I think that the Wizard class should be shattered into several distinct classes with their own more narrowly focused spell lists and let's do away with the Wizard finally once and for all. The Wizard is bloated and generic. Two or three more classes like the Witch, each taking up different segments of the Wizard portfolio, that's what I would love to see happen, really and truly. In all seriousness, I would dissolve the Cleric spell list along the way, as well. I would like to see a Conjuror + Abjuration class and a Necromancy + Evocation class and throw out of the unthematic spells from the Witch spell list, give her the Illusion school and ta dah! We would be free, finally, from the tyranny of One Wizard Class To Rule Them All. Of course the exact spell lists, class powers and whatever would be way more fuzzy and nuanced than just this summary. Instead we would have Druid, Witch, Binder and Animator to take up the various roles on the team. This is beyond the scope of this thread, though.

I don't think it's unreasonable, in the meantime, to notice the inconsistencies of the Witch class spell list as published. I don't think it's unreasonable to notice how wildly variable her Hexes are in terms of balance, or how very few serious choices for Hexes there are (which is partly a consequence of the former). I don't think it's unreasonable to remark how stupid the published Patron list is -- it's barely more than a spreadsheet! No fluff, no mythos, no integration, not even any compelling reason to read the scant page which contains them! A Witch as published could very very very easily not pick a Patron at all and never notice the difference! That's ... I lack the words!

RipfangOmen wrote:
Are you merely asking for more stuff for them? If so, you may need to step back and look at your wording.

Look at my wording...? I'm not sure what you mean here. I think I would have to answer that, since the Witch needs more fluffy flavor, a serious spell list overhaul, major balance and design work on her Hex class feature and so on... that... yeah? This constitutes "more stuff for them"? If you mean to ask whether I think the Witch should be more powerful, then, emphatically -- NO. And I would be confused about how what I've said could be construed so. There are just as many spells on her list currently that she could/should do without as the ones I think she lacks and should have, for example.

RipfangOmen wrote:
Do you just dislike the fluff, or in your opinion, the lack thereof?

What scant lines of fluff there are, are mostly fine. The lack of it is thunderous, though. As I said above, I'll forgive Paizo that. Their Witch is new to D&D. That's fine. They really did miss an enormous opportunity treating Patrons the way they did, though. Why can't we create and suggest fluff for them and for the community to use pending more actual material from Paizo?

RipfangOmen wrote:
In short, I can still like your ideas even if I think the Witch class is fine mechanically.

I think the Rogue and Monk are fine mechanically. Could they use a lot of tweaking to really improve their gameplay? I mean in terms of how satisfying they feel to the player -- which is distinct from the class's mechanical power. Do they have mechanics that could be designed more elegantly or with more options or with fewer gimmicky traps? How about the Witch? Why is it that suggesting work be done on a spellcaster brings down the house like this?

I'm delighted if you like my ideas. That was the whole goal of the thread. Why can't we get more ideas instead of all this:

Azten wrote:
Accusing Paizo about not caring about their community certainly didn't make me want to post. Remember, Paizo does care. Think about all the threads on this site. Do you really think they can watch all of them constantly?

Or any of them...

Azten wrote:
I will say I liked you proposed changes to the hexes though. Now if only this was still the APG playtest, it might have happened.

Should I assume that Paizo, with an MMO on the way, won't be releasing any more iterations of their tabletop Pathfinder product?

Detect Magic wrote:

If I were to hazard a guess, it's because this thread isn't very pleasant. The lack of respect in this thread has probably turned more than one person away.

It's also quite apparent you're only interested with people agreeing with you. I mean, Rynjin and myself both pointed out some flaws in your perception of the class, and you ignored both posts.

You implied that these boards host a poor community, and that Paizo is to blame for not "controlling" things. Well, perhaps you should take your own advice and leave. If you're ready to boycott Pathfinder over something like this, I'd really have to question your maturity level... sorry if that sounds mean, but the truth is that your thread isn't very "nice".

It is not a debate thread. It is not a thread asking for help in understanding the class. It is not a thread in which I invited anyone to show up and tell me to stop contributing work -- let alone in the unpleasant terms in which you/they did.

Part of why it's so frustrating right now is that the unpleasantness didn't spawn from me and yet here I am splattered with the crap -- that's how trolls work. And now my thread is ruined because of some internet thugs, which attracted more of the same.

I'm not interested in people who don't want work done on the Witch. Yes, that's true. I would have thought it obvious, and I'm simply flabbergasted to have it said so to me as if I didn't know. I'm also not interested in people who don't want work done on any other part of the game, but this thread was meant for one specific part of it. I have ignored a few posts which were irrelevant or which didn't warrant a response, but now I'm being held responsible for not responding to patronizing, condescending irrelevancies... I really don't know what to say other than to urge you to seek professional help?

My thread was ruined within an hour of my starting it -- and I'm being blamed for the actions of others who originally I attempted to immediately curtail. My maturity level, hmm?

Seranov wrote:
smug

Not sure why you would highlight your misunderstanding like that unless you're still misunderstanding something.

It's quite simple.

The Witch does not work properly. Therefore. It is a broken class. It is broken because it does not work correctly as intended. It can't be stated any more clearly than that.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

But it works perfectly as it is intended to work. Just like any other "focused" spellcaster, the Witch has some spells outside of her main area of expertise: Debuffs. And those off-branching spells are sporadic and all over the place. You don't see anyone complaining taht the Bard's selection of damaging spells is lackluster, do you? Because it's a silly statement to make. And those debuffs go off very well. Hit someone with Evil Eye, Misfortune, or both and you can lay whatever debuff you damn well please onto anyone you damn well please to.

You, frankly, are being a belligerent douchebag about people disagreeing with your statement that the class is broken as a whole. "Not good enough" is palatable "Could use more options" is easy to agree to, and "There's always room for improvement" is true, but out of all the things I could say about the Witch, "It's broken and unplayable, pls fix Paizo" is the furthest from the truth. The purpose of a forum is for discussion. If I disagree with you, this forum is here for me to write out exactly why I disagree with you and what reasons led me to a conclusion different from yours. It is not a place where you go "Lalala you're not agreeing so you're trolling please leave lalala".

inb4You ignore any statements that contradict you again.


I think that if you take a moment to look back on what was actually said, you'll find that it is indeed your fault that your thread has become "ruined". From the start you were ridiculing those that disagreed with you. From there, you quickly resorted to throwing tantrums and insisting that everyone that doesn't share your view of the witch class leave.

When I originally posted I was trying to make clear to you that things were becoming out of hand, because believe it or not, I was trying to help you (and this community). Now I've lost my patience and become irritated. Frankly, this thread isn't worth my time, so I think I will take your advice and leave.

Good luck with your gaming, and attitude.


Paizo isn't interested in new editions yet, and they are not the ones making the MMO. Goblinworks is, and that's a different company.

Also, I've seen plenty of threads locked. Guess what? They were far worse than this one. If you don't like a post, flag it and ignore.

Shadow Lodge

I don't see any problem with the Witch. I've been playing one in PFS and he's now level 5. I'm loving this guy so far. Misfortune and Slumber have been the ire of some of the GM's I've played with. My companions love Fortune. Combined with Cackle, these hexes can be used to keep two heavy hitters chances of smacking an enemy extremely high, or keeping the BBEG from hitting anyone. While the Witch lacks in the amount of spells that a "normal" caster has, they're replaced with SLA's that DC's go up as you level. The Witch isn't as good of a Blaster or Controller as some of the other casters, but I don't think he's designed that way. The only weak side I can see to the Witch is storing her spells in a familiar.


If the Witch class wasn't called that, with all the cultural baggage and expectations that go along with it, would you still consider it broken? (Say if it were called the Hexer or Hexcaster or something.)


Aunt Tony wrote:
Azten wrote:
Paizo isn't interested in new editions yet, and they are not the ones making the MMO. Goblinworks is, and that's a different company.
Are you really going to claim that Paizo and Goblinworks are not associated at all?

I never said they weren't. I said they are different companies. GW being Paizo's 'child' doesn't make it the same, just like with human children and their parents. You said:

Aunt Tony wrote:
Should I assume that Paizo, with an MMO on the way, won't be releasing any more iterations of their tabletop Pathfinder product?

My reply was that Paizo didn't have an MMO on the way.

Assistant Software Developer

I cleaned up some posturing and whatnot (and of course replies to that.) Flag it and move on, folks.

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