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| 29 people marked this as FAQ candidate. Answered in the FAQ. 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
What adds to Lesser Spirit Totem attack rolls and damage?
1) Bard's Inspire Courage?
2) Improved Natural Attack feat?
3) Magic Fang?
4) Amulet of Mighty Fists?
5) Haste?
6) Smite?
I kind of don't think any of those things affect it. Now, I want to treat it like a Slam, so all of the above would work, but the ability seems to imply the slam attack is something separate from you that attacks on its own, so things that buff you don't help (unless it buffs your Charisma or BAB).
Again, I want to treat it like it's just you making a Slam attack, but I think it's some phantom attack that comes from something else.
I don't think they count as a creature, so I don't think you can buff them as if they were allies. I don't think they "exist" so can't be targeted. They can't deliver Sneak Attack because they don't have any. They can't perform Combat Maneuvers because they lack a CMB.
I'm pretty sure they literally do only what they say they do:
They make one slam attack per round with the listed bonus--and only the listed bonus.
I would treat them as allies, for purpose of Bard buffing, etc.
Stuff that you would take/equip: Feats, Magic Items, etc, wouldn't affect them.
Stuff that applies to your own personal attacks doesn't apply.
They can't Smite on their own, and don't otherwise have any actions so can't benefit from a Paladin's Aura of Justice.
I don't see how they would be delivering Sneak Attack themself.
I don't see why weapon-attack-substituable CMB's (Disarm/Trip) couldn't apply,
I don't believe Sunder works because it requires the Attack action, and they aren't technically using that, the attack just happens 1/round.
Universal stuff like Flanking bonuses apply.
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Oh, about that sunder thing...
Moving on...
How do I determine what bonuses/penalties effect the Spirit Totem slams?
Is there a sort of short list of how to determine what spells/abilities effect them?
I would apply every buff that affects an area like bardic performance and the like but not targeted ones such as haste.
So, if you are someone that believes Inspire Courage works, are you saying that the spirits can either see or understand your language?
So, if you are someone that believes Inspire Courage works, are you saying that the spirits can either see or understand your language?
Good question, but yes I'd treat them as understanding what the barbarian understands.
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honestly, the abilities do need some clarification...
if they are separate creatures from the barbarian, how are they choosing targets?
can the barbarian tell them what to attack? is it random?
what if there is darkness/deeper darkness? do they suffer penalties for that, or are they immune to needing to see? (etc)
should they be making perception checks, or can they automatically see any creature regardless of invis, etc?
i honestly think it works better as being treated as part of the barbarian themself,
which would let them benefit from a bunch of other things.
no matter what, it seems like there are just some 'undefined' issues which require making GM calls with the current RAW.
i hit faq above.
i would also add that when i first read it, i was surprised it wasn't a touch attack.
that would make not having many buffs a much more tenable situation, and seems otherwise appropriate for the ability.
just take beast totem ;-P
yeah, i'm just being sarcastic...
seriously, if they want people to use all the totems, AT MINIMUM they need to be usable.
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Looking how Greater Spirit Totem works, just automatic negative energy damage at the start of the barbarians turn, I'd change Lesser Spirit Totem to work the same way. One adjacent living target automatically takes 1d4+Cha negative energy damage per round on her turn, no slam roll necessary.
Once she bumps up to Greater Spirit Totem, it goes to 1d6+Cha to one target within 15 ft. and 1d8 damage to all adjacent foes, still no attack rolls necessary.
That way there's no question of what modifies the attack roll for the slam, since there is no attack roll, and since it's no longer an 'attack' but more of a damaging environmental effect, there's no question about what modifies its damage, since it no more benefits from damage bonuses (such as a ranger sharing his favored enemy bonus) than the flaming property on your battleaxe.
Here is a more Varisian campaign setting specific rules question related to the Spirit Totem:
Given that the Spirits deal negative energy damage to living creatures only, they do indeed seem to be a kind of incorporeal undead force, like insaneogeddon mentioned..
So do you think the Shoanti barbarians of the Skull Clan, being the ghost busting zombie smashing vampire hunting +2 melee dmg vs. undead fellows that they are, should really be granted access to the Spirit Totem tree at all without getting expelled from their tribe?
Because I do think it perfectly likely that ancestral spirits would be willing to aid their Skoan-Quah descendants and burial mound protectors from the beyond, I'm just very uncertain about the whole negative energy against living beings functioning like necromancy and upsetting every other cleric around. Others seem to have had a similar issue, houseruling the spirit attack as holy damage instead.
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Here is a more Varisian campaign setting specific rules question related to the Spirit Totem:
Given that the Spirits deal negative energy damage to living creatures only, they do indeed seem to be a kind of incorporeal undead force, like insaneogeddon mentioned..
So do you think the Shoanti barbarians of the Skull Clan, being the ghost busting zombie smashing vampire hunting +2 melee dmg vs. undead fellows that they are, should really be granted access to the Spirit Totem tree at all without getting expelled from their tribe?
Because I do think it perfectly likely that ancestral spirits would be willing to aid their Skoan-Quah descendants and burial mound protectors from the beyond, I'm just very uncertain about the whole negative energy against living beings functioning like necromancy and upsetting every other cleric around. Others seem to have had a similar issue, houseruling the spirit attack as holy damage instead.
I wouldn't treat the Skoan-Quah's attitude towards negative energy as an absolute, but then again I've always railed against the idea of undead/spirits/etc="always evil". Personally, I think Spirit Totems fit their flavor as is, and the Shoanti and Varisians really do need the support for their ancestral spirit revering backgrounds.
The one stumbling block to that is that those ancestral spirits represented by RAW Spirit Totems can't help their descendants against hostile and evil undead. (warding off evil spirits with the aid of good spirits is something that really does need more mechanical support rather than hurdles)
I do totally recommend the holy damage route though! Useless against non-evil targets, so there's a real tradeoff to consider!
I don't know how much more the original topic can be discussed - the issue obvious needs some response from Paizo - hit the FAQ button if you haven't already, people.
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The souls of these spirits associated with Spirit Totem may well NOT be 'permanently' prevented from going on to the higher planes via Pharasma, but may be spirits that are merely waiting a long time to be judged, and in the meantime may help their living descendents (the exact spirits attracted to the bearer of the Spirit Totem may change over time, as some leave or pass on). The whole idea of communing with ancestral spirits seems to presuppose just this type of 'extended stay' of ancestor spirits who stick around to aid their tribe, etc. Having a specific form of it (Spirit Totem) doesn't seem to be a fundamental change there.
What would they do anyway? Having that Rage Power doesn't imply the character DID anything to seek it out, and the spirits are apparently otherwise not targettable by any effect, so no matter what their opinion, they can't do anything about it. They are very aware of the dead, and if some of the dead ancestors chooses to follow one of their tribesmen around, why would they expel both their living tribesmen AND the anscestor spirits? Again, they REVERE ancestor spirits.
As to the change to Holy damage, I don't think it's at all appropriate, certainly unless the ancestors in question were all high level Paladins. Sure, it doesn't help DAMAGE Undead... so what? (The Miss Chance is still beneficial vs. attacks from Undead) ...Either negative or positive energy also wouldn't help fight constructs. The majority of their enemies are still likely to be living creatures that are harmed by it. (Skoan Quah are not presented as being in constant war against zombie hordes, fighting undead is merely one aspect of their relationship with death, amongst other non-violent ones)
The spirits, as emissaries from the world of the dead, bring with them Negative Energy, and this is the basis for their offensive power in this world... I don't see why to change that in any way. The Negative Energy doesn't depend on the alignment of their ancestors (though Skoan-Qua may be as Good or Evil as anybody else), it is because the source is from the dead: This basic implication doesn't seem like it should disturb any Skoan-Quah... similarly it seems acceptable to Pharasma worshippers (who also don't have any issue with Negative/Positive Energy, to the extent of their Clerics being able to Channel either type of Energy, while being noted as fighting Undead).
So... Overall, I would say Spirit Totem is a GREAT choice for Skoan-Quah Barbarian/Rage Prophets.
Too bad that the current rules have such glaring holes as written.
EDIT: @Mikaze: I actually would even see Skoan-Quah as potentially a good match to also use the 'Not-Necessarily-Evil Juju Zombie' rules, although those rules seems semi-controversial with 'SOME' in Paizo itself. I do think it makes sense to have some more rules/restrictions on how 'Juju Zombies' can be made, while still being s 'Good/non-Evil' act, breaking some of those guidelines could make it an Evil act (although the Juju Zombies in that case could themselves still be Good or Neutral potentially.) Using Speak with Dead to ASK PERMISSION of the dead first is the sort of thing I would envision here...
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Incidentally, I think while the ability is being Errata'd, it makes sense for it to be made to also work vs. Undead, i.e. healing Undead. If you are a Necromancer-type Rage Prophet, it seems more than appropriate, and a useful secondary application of an ability that is IMHO otherwise not particularly super-strongj.
I think making the ability count as one of your own attacks resolves the largest number issues in one simple stroke, e.g. targetting/concealment/perception, as well as attack bonuses... Although it then requires a Full Attack to be able to make use of the attack AND do whatever other actions/attacks you want to do, a possible argument in favor of making it 'independent' (or at least a special rules exception, to count as 'your' attack, but always work every round at full BAB, independent of your other actions). If it IS to be 'independent', it DOES need to resolve those types of issues, though.
Being purely negative energy damage, it seems like it SHOULD target Touch AC, not normal AC. If it were treated as one of your own ('natural') attacks, then it would suffer the -4 penalty for combining with normal Iterative attacks, but beneffiting from all attack bonuses AND targetting Touch AC pretty much 'counters' that.
Thanks for replying. Your points of view are much appreciated.
For the record, I agree that the Spirit Totem should really be no problem for the Skull clan. I also agree (in way of summarizing) that for the sake of simplifying and streamlining combat, the 1d4+CHA damage should be automatically applied to one random living foe adjacent to the spirits at the start of the round. Maybe allowing a Reflex saving throw.
If this wouldn't be the case, the negative energy damage should certainly only be dealt after a successful touch attack, to which AoE buffs to allies (Bless, etc.) could be applied, but no buffs requiring targetting.
On the other hand, I'm disallowing my Skoan-Quah oracles access to the Bones mystery without severe social penalties. But that's a topic for another post in another sub-forum.
Just as the Shattering hasn't been confirmed this hasn't either.
I would say it would simply be the B.A.B.+CHA nothing else by R.A.W.
Yes, but those usually require an Action. IIRC the Barbarian ability is automatic.
But it doesn't require the Barbarian to spend an action to perform the Slam. It is automatic each round that the Barbarian Rages.
They look pretty similar to the effect from a spiritual weapon spell. I'd start by looking into what bonuses can apply to that spell and go from there.
That is still part of the action and it actually is a free touch not a free attack last time I looked.