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unfortunately, it seems the direction you have chosen is to become another wow clone. another game that takes some parts of pathfinder and mixes them with typical mmo conventions. just an example, you have stated that you are only going to loosely follow the class structure. why you would deviate from this is madness.
I'm going to take a wild stab in the dark here that either a) you've never played World of Warcraft or b) this is a knee-jerk reaction and you're venting at some perceived slight.
As someone who is a) a Pathfinder fan and b) a long-time MMO player, the game that Goblinworks is creating is NOTHING like World of Warcraft aside from the fact that it is a massively multiplayer game.
First of all, because the Pathfinder ruleset is created from the OGL they are EXPRESSLY PROHIBITED from creating any form of video game based on the Pathfinder ruleset as read verbatim. This is why Pathfinder Online has to be an approximation of the ruleset.
Next, Goblinworks are creating a sandbox. This means that the actions of the players, and not the developers, are what will craft the world in which we play. Yes, the developers will provide us with the tools, much like a DM would with a tabletop game) but it is up to us to do what we want in it.
I realise that this post will come across as confrontational but no more than yours, and given that your post is predicated upon emotion and false information, I feel I need to put such strength into the post. Nothing would please me more than for more of the tabletop players who refuse to look at Pathfinder Online simply because it is an MMO to take a deep breath and thoroughly read into what the game is about.
Goblin Squad Member
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First of all, because the Pathfinder ruleset is created from the OGL they are EXPRESSLY PROHIBITED from creating any form of video game based on the Pathfinder ruleset as read verbatim. This is why Pathfinder Online has to be an approximation of the ruleset.
It's a pity this isn't more widely known.
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Goblin Squad Member
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If MMO's were doughnuts, and most doughnuts are chocolate, and you want a maple doughnut... you have basically just stated because this doughnut is not maple it is chocolate.
It's not. This is an apple fritter.
Most WoW clones can list off a couple features detailing how they are different than WoW. With Pathfinder Online... it would be easier to list the ones that are the same. Most aspects of this game are entirely different than WoW.
Crafting, combat, factions, early game, mid game, end game(endgame doesn't actually exist in PFO) it's ALL different.
The briefest summary I can give is that where WoW is about grinding your class up to max level and then raiding for gear, PFO is about meaningful player interaction. The best gear is player built. Most cities will be player built. The game allows players to build their own kingdoms or not join a kingdom at all.
Just read the blog. It will explain how this game is in no way like WoW.
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Goblin Squad Member
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First of all, because the Pathfinder ruleset is created from the OGL they are EXPRESSLY PROHIBITED from creating any form of video game based on the Pathfinder ruleset as read verbatim.
Didn't know that but it makes sense. It is really to bad too. I would love to see a series of Pathfinder video games like the old AD&D games made by SSI or even a Baldur's Gate/Neverwinter type game.
Yes. Paizo, or any other affiliated company, cannot make a game which has a complete representation of the Pathfinder rules in their current format. To do so would necessitate a second edition not based on the OGL which would then probably largely invalidate all of the content released for the current edition. From a business viewpoint it was a smart idea on WotC's part. It completely sucks for us.
I don't think there's a Pathfinder fan alive that wouldn't love to get a Baldur's Gate/Neverwinter Nights style game but it simply won't happen. Paizo could fight it in court but the ensuing costs if they were to lose would decimate the company so it just isn't worth it. The closest we'll get will be Pathfinder Online or the web-based VTT that Paizo themselves are developing.
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Goblin Squad Member
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give us what we wanted. that is, the pathfinder rule set, in its entirety made into a computer game and a world we can be a part of where what we do and dont do actually means something. i was considering offering a good chunk of change to be a part of this great endeavor.
Ok, apart from what everyone else said, as a fellow gamer i can understand that if you are a fan of something you don`t like to see it changed.
i get that.i can still in painfull detail remember what high hopes i had when i heared that someone is making a d&d movie.
And i remember in equal pain actually seeing it.
but, apart from the legal stuff, if you think about it, how exactly should an online 1 to 1 conversion of Pathfinder work?
i just look at a level 1 Wizard, and his spells per DAY and go, ok that wont work
it seems the direction you have chosen is to become another wow clone.
i would really like to know how you got there?
what makes you think so? apart from Goblinworks not using the "true" pathfinder system.which i, if i haven`t said so before really really like
i don`t wont to be patronizing so please don`t get offended, but make you should take a deep breath, calm down and then analyse what is bugging you
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Goblin Squad Member
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So, are we going to see these same exact thread topics that we saw back in August all pop up again? We already had the "ZOMG paizo's gonna go bankrupt makin an MMO" thread, now the "Please use the actual ruleset or FAILZ will ensue" thread. What's next? The "Please make me wash my dishes = REALISM" thread?
For the love of God, use your search function. These topics have already been argued to death.
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Goblin Squad Member
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i can still in painfull detail remember what high hopes i had when i heared that someone is making a d&d movie.
And i remember in equal pain actually seeing it.
So I remember watching the first D&D movie in the theatre with my high school D&D group. It wasn't that bad. The second movie I watched with a later D&D group and it was a bit worse.
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Goblin Squad Member
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So I remember watching the first D&D movie in the theatre with my high school D&D group. It wasn't that bad. The second movie I watched with a later D&D group and it was a bit worse.
Good for you;) but i didn`t make my point clear then, probably.
because the name said D&D i had dragonlance in mind, and the forgotten realms, and to me, the movie didn`t deliver.
Why, because the movie on screen was no competition for the movie i envisioned.
in summary, i probably would have liked the movie had i just watch it as is and not compered it to an ideal.
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Goblin Squad Member
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i was excited at the idea that GOBLIN WORKS, working closely with a partner company [edit: Paizo Publishing]
Fixed.
the pathfinder rule set, in its entirety made into a computer game
i am guessing people at paizo are concerned that if they created everything to the T the same as the ruleset nobody would by their hardcopy resources.
As above the legal reasons. 2: Several major transitions between TT & Online:
1. GM + friends vs 000,000's potentially interacting online via code
2. Turn-based vs "Real-time"
3. Persistence of virtual world objects vs imagination
unfortunately, it seems the direction you have chosen is to become another wow clone...i will give you props for making it a sandbox world. that has been needed in the market for a long time.
This is a contradiction. Not sure what you are finding unappealing to cite wow clone?
do not do what neverwinter has just done. IT IS TERRIBLE.
Interested to hear more. :)
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Goblin Squad Member
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So in your mind rigidly following the class system is further from being a "WoW clone"? You Keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.
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Goblin Squad Member
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So, are we going to see these same exact thread topics that we saw back in August all pop up again? We already had the "ZOMG paizo's gonna go bankrupt makin an MMO" thread, now the "Please use the actual ruleset or FAILZ will ensue" thread. What's next? The "Please make me wash my dishes = REALISM" thread?
For the love of God, use your search function. These topics have already been argued to death.
Different people have different expectations of forums. For many of us it's just "having a chat". If we've already talked about something it's no big deal to revisit it. It's not compulsory to join in, after all. Those who want to talk about it again (or provide links to past discussions) can do so and if there's no interest the thread will just fade away.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Different people have different expectations of forums. For many of us it's just "having a chat". If we've already talked about something it's no big deal to revisit it. It's not compulsory to join in, after all. Those who want to talk about it again (or provide links to past discussions) can do so and if there's no interest the thread will just fade away.So, are we going to see these same exact thread topics that we saw back in August all pop up again? We already had the "ZOMG paizo's gonna go bankrupt makin an MMO" thread, now the "Please use the actual ruleset or FAILZ will ensue" thread. What's next? The "Please make me wash my dishes = REALISM" thread?
For the love of God, use your search function. These topics have already been argued to death.
You're correct. I've already learned my lesson on this.
But as a helpful tip: This website has a search function. I encourage newcomers to use it to address concerns before starting a new topic. What you're concerned about may have already been addressed in another thread by Paizo or Goblin Works staff or discussed ad nauseum by the Paizo community.That's all.
First of all, because the Pathfinder ruleset is created from the OGL they are EXPRESSLY PROHIBITED from creating any form of video game based on the Pathfinder ruleset as read verbatim. This is why Pathfinder Online has to be an approximation of the ruleset.
Explain never winter nights 1 and 2 then, please, they were verbatim Dungeons and Dragons 3.0 and 3.5 rule sets. Just throwing that out there because I fail to see how a Dungeons and Dragons game was able to be made that was set within the confines of OGL. Is there something I am missing here? Are they different open game license formats or something? because i was under the impression that only one OGL existed.
http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/openGameLicense.html That is a link to the OGL for pathfinder, its identical as far as i can tell to the dungeons and dragons ogl and is the same ogl wizards drew up ( has their name all over it actually) and i see nothing in it that prevent GW and Paizo from doing the same thing Bioware and wizards did with D&D and the neverwinter nights games.
Not trying to be a jerk, just curious what I am missing since you obviously know more about the OGL then I do. please elaborate on this, it might help other people from going on wild tangents and righteous rants when they are clueless to what PFO is like drspinaltap's first ever post to the forums we have right here.
So in your mind rigidly following the class system is further from being a "WoW clone"? You Keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.
ohh snap, Blaeringr pulled out the princess bride, Drspinaltap, you just got served.
Goblinworks Executive Founder
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Neverwinter Nights wasn't OGL, it was WOTC liscenced. That's also how they got the Forgotten Realms' characters, locations, and creatures.
It's unlikely that WOTC would license the rules again, especially to what would be seen as a competitor to DDO. There may even be an exclusivity agreement in place somewhere.
EDIT: WOTC still owns the rules. Paizo is using them under the OGL.
Neverwinter Nights wasn't OGL, it was WOTC liscenced. That's also how they got the Forgotten Realms' characters, locations, and creatures.
It's unlikely that WOTC would license the rules again, especially to what would be seen as a competitor to DDO. There may even be an exclusivity agreement in place somewhere.
EDIT: WOTC still owns the rules. Paizo is using them under the OGL.
I knew NWN itself was not ogl but i could have sworn the campaign setting of the forgotten realms was.
So basicly, what you are saying is Goblin Works and Paizo would have to get permission from wizards of the coast to use pathfinders full class system, even with all the changes that Paizo made to the original classes. That makes sense to me now. Guess the whole OGL property of Wizards just was not clicking for me.
Thanks for explaining that Decius. Very much appreciated.
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Goblinworks Executive Founder
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I'm not sure where the line is between Paizo's contributions to the OGL and WOTC's. The legal expenses of disentangling everything might be excessive, especially since winning a lawsuit could break Goblinworks.
Plus the d20 system is poorly suited to and medium where doing the calculations is trivial. There's no reason why a high reflex save results in half or no damage from an effect, rather than avoiding a variable amount or percentage of damage.
oh i have no complaints with how GW is doing the "class system". i like full flexibility and customization, one of the reason why i loved pre nge swg. Would i prefer something as close to TT classes as possible like NWN sure, but it jusr does not lend its self well to an mmo.
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Explain never winter nights 1 and 2 then, please, they were verbatim Dungeons and Dragons 3.0 and 3.5 rule sets. Just throwing that out there because I fail to see how a Dungeons and Dragons game was able to be made that was set within the confines of OGL. Is there something I am missing here? Are they different open game license formats or something? because i was under the impression that only one OGL existed.
WOTC owns D&D and, last I heard, had licensed the ability to author computer simulations of the D&D rules exclusively to Atari. That was one of the conditions of the SRD, before WOTC expired it. Whether or not that restriction applies to the OGL was a gray area, since it's not expressly stated in the OGL. So far, no one has been willing to test whether or not WOTC/Atari would sue if you created an OGL video game.
-Skeld
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CEO, Goblinworks
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The OGL does not prohibit anyone from making a computer game.
it prohibits you from publishing open game content with any license other than the OGL. All computer software, except that you write 100% yourself, has a license. Ergo, it is functionally impossible to combine the OGL and any software anyone would consider remotely "modern".
But that's not why we're not using the tabletop game rules. We're not using them because they're inappropriate for the kind of MMO we want to produce.
The OGL does not prohibit anyone from making a computer game.
it prohibits you from publishing open game content with any license other than the OGL. All computer software, except that you write 100% yourself, has a license. Ergo, it is functionally impossible to combine the OGL and any software anyone would consider remotely "modern".But that's not why we're not using the tabletop game rules. We're not using them because they're inappropriate for the kind of MMO we want to produce.
thank you for clearing that up.
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Goblin Squad Member
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| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Different people have different expectations of forums. For many of us it's just "having a chat". If we've already talked about something it's no big deal to revisit it. It's not compulsory to join in, after all. Those who want to talk about it again (or provide links to past discussions) can do so and if there's no interest the thread will just fade away.So, are we going to see these same exact thread topics that we saw back in August all pop up again? We already had the "ZOMG paizo's gonna go bankrupt makin an MMO" thread, now the "Please use the actual ruleset or FAILZ will ensue" thread. What's next? The "Please make me wash my dishes = REALISM" thread?
For the love of God, use your search function. These topics have already been argued to death.
You're correct. I've already learned my lesson on this.
But as a helpful tip: This website has a search function. I encourage newcomers to use it to address concerns before starting a new topic. What you're concerned about may have already been addressed in another thread by Paizo or Goblin Works staff or discussed ad nauseum by the Paizo community.That's all.
I think your point is well made and (although I'm one of those who will cheerfully start a thread without checking if its already been covered) I think there's an obligation to at least be aware you are posting from a wilfully ignorant position if you're not interested in searching past threads. What may seem dismissive may in fact just be a curt summary.