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PaizoCon 2014!

Gail Simone fired from Batgirl by email!


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Classy move, DC...


What.

RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8

Way to go DC. (Not that I was reading Batgirl. I've all of Secret Six and am starting on Birds of Prey)


What? Simone is amazing, this is an appaling move!

Silver Crusade

2 people marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules Subscriber

It's like DC doesn't want my money.


Freehold DM, "appalling" has two ls.
DC is being stupid again.....

Paizo Employee Publisher, Chief Creative Officer

Batgirl was terrible. Simone clearly didn't click with the assignment, and it was going nowhere fast. I dropped it months ago, after being excited specifically due to her involvement.

Between Batgirl and Firestorm, I'm starting to worry that perhaps Gail has lost some of her old magic.


2 people marked this as a favorite.

^I think it's less the fact that she was fired and more the fact that she wasn't told she was fired in person.

S'basically the business equivalent of breaking up with someone over text.

Paizo Employee Publisher, Chief Creative Officer

Yeah, that's fair. Pretty lame.

Paizo Employee Chief Technical Officer

I know a guy who asked for a divorce from his wife via email.


I know a guy who drove about 10 hours to visit his girlfriend, who dumped him when he got there, so he turned around and drive back.

Sometimes it's better not to do it in person.

(This was before text or even common email, but she could have done it by phone.)


Vic Wertz wrote:
I know a guy who asked for a divorce from his wife via email.

My ex-wife let me know via a certified letter from the attorney's office :/

Greg


Erik Mona wrote:

Batgirl was terrible. Simone clearly didn't click with the assignment, and it was going nowhere fast. I dropped it months ago, after being excited specifically due to her involvement.

Between Batgirl and Firestorm, I'm starting to worry that perhaps Gail has lost some of her old magic.

indeed? Does she need retraining, a sabbatical or to take a break for a while?


thejeff wrote:

I know a guy who drove about 10 hours to visit his girlfriend, who dumped him when he got there, so he turned around and drive back.

Sometimes it's better not to do it in person.

(This was before text or even common email, but she could have done it by phone.)

I knew a dude in college who's girlfriend bought tickets to go to Jamaica or some other Caribbean isle (it's been a while) and after the plane landed he dumped her.

It was an awkward flight back, to say the least.


2 people marked this as a favorite.

All the comics-Internet has been alight with outrage. I hadn't read Batgirl so I can't judge it, but I know a lot of people for whom that was either the only book or one of few DC books they read post New 52 and loved it, and I feel like I am constantly surrounded by their sense of devastation. A few of my friends loved Gail Simone's Batgirl so much they are now considering boycotting all of DC (me I already stopped reading all of DC's stuff awhile ago, save for Sword of Sorcery, which is kind of its own thing). Even if there are some people like Erik who feel that Simone didn't do a good job on Batgirl, she has a loyal following from a lot of rabid fans who likely have as equally a valid opinion on the subject as those who are not fans of Simone or her work on the title.

I really hope Gail gives DC the laugh and finds opportunity to work for another company or an independent project. There's a lot of younger comics companies that are growing in work and popularity, and a strong writer like her could really bring a lot to them and they to her.

Hell, forget comics. What would really be AWESOME is if the writers of Arrow and the intended showrunners for the planned Amazon project picked her up as a new writer in their stable. That would likely be AMAZING.


Pathfinder Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules Subscriber
DeathQuaker wrote:
Hell, forget comics. What would really be AWESOME is if the writers of Arrow and the intended showrunners for the planned Amazon project picked her up as a new writer in their stable. That would likely be AMAZING.

I don't know about Amazon, but I highly doubt Arrow will pick her up simply due to the fact it is still a DC property & if she was actually fired, the Arrow people aren't going to want to piss off the people who can say 'We're yanking this.' and all the production team can do is take it & smile. If Amazon is a planned boot-up of Wonder Woman for television, unfortunately, the same concern applies.

But otherwise, Hell Yes, that would be AWESOME. I might have to start watching broadcast television again for something like that.


It's unfortunate that she was let go that way, but yeah, her work has slipped from it's former standard. I was a huge fan during her great run on Birds of Prey, some years ago. But what she's producing now just hasn't been able to keep my interest in the same way.

I have faith that she'll bounce back, and I'll consider reading books she's involved with in the future.

RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8

2 people marked this as a favorite.

IT's the 'fire by e-mail' bit that bugs me.

I didn't read Batgirl, or any of the DCnU. Maybe she needs a good team book? I understand she has a kickstarter comic project going on.

*sigh* I miss the Six.


Erik Mona wrote:

Between Batgirl and Firestorm, I'm starting to worry that perhaps Gail has lost some of her old magic.

Given the current state of DC, I'd give Simone the benefit of the doubt here. It seems that there is a lot of editorial interference everywhere, and I wouldn't doubt that said interference might have hampered her writing. I find that theory to be more realistic than the notion that she went from the heights we saw in Secret Six to the lows of Batgirl practically overnight.

RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8

I recall reading she did have a lot of ideas shot down. (No Cass, no Stephanie, not allowed to bring in any of the Six, etc.)

Come to think of it, Ragdoll would have been an interesting counter to Babs (different relations with family, his self mutilitation vs her healing, etc)

I've also read that addressing Bab's being healed is something Simone wanted, and was shot down.


Irnk, Dead-Eye's Prodigal wrote:


I don't know about Amazon, but I highly doubt Arrow will pick her up simply due to the fact it is still a DC property & if she was actually fired, the Arrow people aren't going to want to piss off the people who can say 'We're yanking this.' and all the production team can do is take it & smile. If Amazon is a planned boot-up of Wonder Woman for television, unfortunately, the same concern applies.

But otherwise, Hell Yes, that would be AWESOME. I might have to start watching broadcast television again for something like that.

Writers get fired off comic books all the time. Sometimes they get a new book from the same company, sometimes they go to work for a different company (and then sometimes get hired back to work for the original book they were fired from). Getting fired as a comic writer is generally a bit different from getting fired from a normal job.

Not to say that writers can't be fired-fired, in that the company in question never wants to work with them again, but that doesn't seem to be the case here. So I don't think any of the wonks at DC would have an issue if Simone decided she wanted to try her hand at writing for one of their TV properties and the producers of those shows wanted her on board.

All that said, notifying her via email is pretty lousy.


Irnk, Dead-Eye's Prodigal wrote:
DeathQuaker wrote:
Hell, forget comics. What would really be AWESOME is if the writers of Arrow and the intended showrunners for the planned Amazon project picked her up as a new writer in their stable. That would likely be AMAZING.

I don't know about Amazon, but I highly doubt Arrow will pick her up simply due to the fact it is still a DC property & if she was actually fired, the Arrow people aren't going to want to piss off the people who can say 'We're yanking this.' and all the production team can do is take it & smile. If Amazon is a planned boot-up of Wonder Woman for television, unfortunately, the same concern applies.

But otherwise, Hell Yes, that would be AWESOME. I might have to start watching broadcast television again for something like that.

I may be wrong on this, but to the best of my understanding, DC Comics is a property of Warner Brothers. The IP usually managed by DC Comics is owned by Warner Brothers. Warner Brothers TV, which makes TV shows for the CW, is also another, different property of Warner Brothers. It can take Warner Brothers IP, including DC superheroes, and make TV shows about them. But who works for one does not have to affect who works for the other. And if the bosses at WB upstairs say they wanted Gail Simone to work on one of their TV shows, including Arrow or Amazon, DC really couldn't do anything about it.

Matthew Morris wrote:

IT's the 'fire by e-mail' bit that bugs me.

I didn't read Batgirl, or any of the DCnU. Maybe she needs a good team book? I understand she has a kickstarter comic project going on.

*sigh* I miss the Six.

I hope she finds work with another company who treats her right. She deserves better than DC Comics and DC Comics deserves any and all crap they get for the way they treat their creative team.

Her indie book Leaving Megalopolis is coming out but I don't know when.

Also for the record, as noted in this excellent article on the situation, Gail was not fired because the book was doing poorly. It was selling consistently, often selling OUT, and was #36 in sales which is extremely good, and outselling other Bat-family titles. It was also reviewed favorably in the NY Times and other places you tend not to see rave reviews of comic books. So it being a bad book is not the issue.

It's really weird but I feel very worked up about this. Like you Matt, I haven't read any New 52---well, until I picked up Sword of Sorcery recently, but that's not deeply tied into the rest of the DCU. But Gail Simone is a great writer and a number of people whose opinions on comics that I very, very, very deeply respect have had nothing but the best things to say about her work. Something just seems wrong here -- and yes, part of it is just the way it happened. Even if you didn't like her work, an ace writer like her should not be treated like that.

But DC's been rubbing me the wrong way for a long time now. It doesn't surprise me that they treat their talent so unprofessionally, and sadly, I find myself praying for the day they crash and burn. At this point I'd rather my childhood heroes die and disappear than remain in their hands. And it kind of frightens me that that is how strongly I feel about it. Then again, I feel like my childhood heroes are already dead.


SWORD OF SORCERY 4 LIFE!!! So many of my Darklight Sisterhood players were so happyyto hear that it had returned. I'm also enjoying the Grendel comic.


Freehold DM wrote:
SWORD OF SORCERY 4 LIFE!!! So many of my Darklight Sisterhood players were so happyyto hear that it had returned. I'm also enjoying the Grendel comic.

Wait. Grendel?

Oh. The Beowulf backup in SoS. Nevermind. For a moment I thought I'd missed Grendel coming out again.


Freehold DM wrote:
SWORD OF SORCERY 4 LIFE!!! So many of my Darklight Sisterhood players were so happyyto hear that it had returned. I'm also enjoying the Grendel comic.

I have been pleasantly surprised by it, and deeply hope DC doesn't f#~% it up. I like both Amethyst and the Beowulf story.


Pathfinder Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules Subscriber
thejeff wrote:
Wait. Grendel?

I Really don't see Matt Wagner signing on with DC anytime in this decade.

Although, yes, more Grendel would be in-freaking-credible.


Irnk, Dead-Eye's Prodigal wrote:
thejeff wrote:
Wait. Grendel?

I Really don't see Matt Wagner signing on with DC anytime in this decade.

Although, yes, more Grendel would be in-freaking-credible.

Not as in-freaking-credible as Mage III. But that's the Holy Grail and I don't expect it soon.


Wait, are you guys talking about the old Comico line of comics?

Greg

EDIT if we are bringing up oldies but goodies, sign me up for Grendel, Jon Sable, Elementals, Nexus, and oh yeah.. MAGIC IS GREEN!!!


Pathfinder Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules Subscriber
Greg Wasson wrote:

Wait, are you guys talking about the old Comico line of comics?

Greg

EDIT if we are bringing up oldies but goodies, sign me up for Grendel, Jon Sable, Elementals, Nexus, and oh yeah.. MAGIC IS GREEN!!!

.

Yeah, we kind of thread-jacked it. Last I recall, Wagner was doing some stuff with Image now. Of course, this was...
maybe a decade ago?
Pretty sure it was before DC bought them, I think, DC are the ones who bought them...
Yeah, it was DC because they took an Image character & gave her a title in the 'new 52'.
Don't know if it lasted, don't really care. Much like DQ I haven't had much use for DC for years...

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules Subscriber

I hate assuming the worst, but it's kind of hard not to with the Big Two these days:

I can't help but suspect that Simone got the axe because she was refusing an editorial mandate. You know, like the kind that Marvel and DC have both been throwing around far too freely the past decade. It's a bit too easy to see horrible directions Simone would not want to take that book that someone higher up on the totem poll was determined would be a good idea.

And if there's one thing that DC can be counted on these days it's crapping all over their strong female characters once they have a good thing going.

No, I'm not bitter about the mindwipe derail of Brubaker's Catwoman or the lolwut direction they took Cassandra Cain at all.

Augh, that's a big part of what's frustrating about this. It's hard to be cold and objective about it after DC(and Marvel) have built up so much bad karma. It's really hard to not be embittered towards both of them these days.


Irnk, Dead-Eye's Prodigal wrote:
Greg Wasson wrote:

Wait, are you guys talking about the old Comico line of comics?

Greg

EDIT if we are bringing up oldies but goodies, sign me up for Grendel, Jon Sable, Elementals, Nexus, and oh yeah.. MAGIC IS GREEN!!!

.

Yeah, we kind of thread-jacked it. Last I recall, Wagner was doing some stuff with Image now. Of course, this was...
maybe a decade ago?
Pretty sure it was before DC bought them, I think, DC are the ones who bought them...
Yeah, it was DC because they took an Image character & gave her a title in the 'new 52'.
Don't know if it lasted, don't really care. Much like DQ I haven't had much use for DC for years...

Of late Wagner been doing pulp hero stuff for Dynamite. Just finished up a Zorro run and there's a Shadow: Year One series coming out.

Nexus had a brief run in Dark Horse Presents earlier this year. My personal favorite, Grimjack, had a couple miniseries a few years back.

Andoran

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules, Roleplaying Game, Tales Subscriber
Matthew Morris wrote:

IT's the 'fire by e-mail' bit that bugs me.

I didn't read Batgirl, or any of the DCnU. Maybe she needs a good team book? I understand she has a kickstarter comic project going on.

*sigh* I miss the Six.

According to their Kickstarter page, it's due February sometime, but that may have changed.


In still reading all the Batbooks except Batwoman and Batwing. I liked Batgirl up to the last storyline before the Joker x-over (didn't like the villainess or story for that matter). I think Batgirl needs a creepier rogues gallery and some Birds of Prey cameos.
All in all a decent book.
Of the DC femmes, Catwoman is better written and Wonder Woman is flat out awesome. Supergirl is terrible and currently the worst of my monthly pull list with Legion Lost. Ymmv.

Lantern Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Rynjin wrote:

^I think it's less the fact that she was fired and more the fact that she wasn't told she was fired in person.

S'basically the business equivalent of breaking up with someone over text.

There was a company awhile back that made the news for firing over 2,000 people with a morning's email. HLavCo I think was one of them. But in a society where non-executive employees are treated like so much disposable tools, it's something fairly normal to expect.

It may well be a measure that both DC and Marvel have grown so large that comic book artists and writers are now joining the legion of faceless cogs.


Mikaze wrote:

I hate assuming the worst, but it's kind of hard not to with the Big Two these days:

I can't help but suspect that Simone got the axe because she was refusing an editorial mandate. You know, like the kind that Marvel and DC have both been throwing around far too freely the past decade. It's a bit too easy to see horrible directions Simone would not want to take that book that someone higher up on the totem poll was determined would be a good idea.

And if there's one thing that DC can be counted on these days it's crapping all over their strong female characters once they have a good thing going.

No, I'm not bitter about the mindwipe derail of Brubaker's Catwoman or the lolwut direction they took Cassandra Cain at all.

Augh, that's a big part of what's frustrating about this. It's hard to be cold and objective about it after DC(and Marvel) have built up so much bad karma. It's really hard to not be embittered towards both of them these days.

And/or that the new editor did not like what she wanted to do with the book, and they couldn't find an area to agree. I've been reading around and it looks like Simone had planned two things:

1. She wanted to include a transgendered character in the book, and had been very vocal about making this happen.
2. She wanted to explore more of Barbara's healing process from how she went from paraplegic to full range of movement again.

For the first, DC likes to believe the universe is one where the only real human beings are cis-gender males. They probably can't even brain the idea of a transgendered person, let alone acknowledge their existence or be tolerant about it.

For the second, from what I have read--taking this with the large grain of salt that there's some comic nerd speculation in here--what DC originally wanted to do was just BOOM magically make Barbara Gordon into a walking, running, kicking Batgirl with absolutely no acknowledgement of her injury or her identity as Oracle whatsoever (which in my mind are two different things, however one might have been born of the other). Gail insisted on actually making a story that explained how Barbara was in fact cured of her paraplegia and how her experience affected her. She did that to some extent, but wanted to work more with it in future issues--at least I was reading on her tumblr that she was talking more about doing a story arc to do with that. I think DC tolerated her doing that but was tired of the idea of the storyline.


DeathQuaker wrote:


For the second, from what I have read--taking this with the large grain of salt that there's some comic nerd speculation in here--what DC originally wanted to do was just BOOM magically make Barbara Gordon into a walking, running, kicking Batgirl with absolutely no acknowledgement of her injury or her identity as Oracle whatsoever (which in my mind are two different things, however one might have been born of the other). Gail insisted on actually making a story that explained how Barbara was in fact cured of her paraplegia and how her experience affected her. She did that to some extent, but wanted to work more with it in future issues--at least I was reading on her tumblr that she was talking more about doing a story arc to do with that. I think DC tolerated her doing that but was tired of the idea of the storyline.

Honestly, it might have been better. Given that it was a reboot, the cleanest approach might have been to drop the injury entirely.

I think they did drop Oracle, at least I can't remember any New 52 direct references.
They could also have just assumed a prolonged recovery, but not with years in a wheelchair and a permanent paraplegia that is miraculously cured.
New universe. Never happened.


Sunderstone wrote:

In still reading all the Batbooks except Batwoman and Batwing. I liked Batgirl up to the last storyline before the Joker x-over (didn't like the villainess or story for that matter). I think Batgirl needs a creepier rogues gallery and some Birds of Prey cameos.

All in all a decent book.
Of the DC femmes, Catwoman is better written and Wonder Woman is flat out awesome. Supergirl is terrible and currently the worst of my monthly pull list with Legion Lost. Ymmv.

And I've dropped all the Batbooks, except Batwoman and Batman Inc.

Beyond that, Morrison's almost done with Action, so that's gone. I liked Robinson's Shade and am still reading his Earth 2, though I think it's a bad idea to introduce a different Earth 2 so early in the reboot.
And the real Legion is still back with Levitz writing it. Yay!

Of course, the LSH and Batman, Inc are basically unaffected by the New 52. Shade ignored any changes.

Outside of the regular DC Universe, I still like Fables.


Pathfinder Deluxe Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Maps, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I've read a few of the new DCU 53 titles, but I'm happier with Batwoman.

HOWEVER, regardless of my feelings on some of the titles, getting fired over e-mail? Low blow there. At least call them.


thejeff wrote:


Honestly, it might have been better. Given that it was a reboot, the cleanest approach might have been to drop the injury entirely.
I think they did drop Oracle, at least I can't remember any New 52 direct references.
They could also have just assumed a prolonged recovery, but not with years in a wheelchair and a permanent paraplegia that is miraculously cured.
New universe. Never happened.

The problem with this approach is that Didio, Lee, and Johns were incredibly vocal about the fact that the Bat-Family and Green Lantern continuities were coming over into the New 52 "unchanged." So, by their repeated assertions, everything that happened in the Batman lines, and everything that happened in the Lantern lines, was still a factual part of the continuity of the new DCU. There were repeated, strong and sure mentions that the Bat-family and the Lantern-verse were going to be the two things that were left untouched, because they were going to have the most impact in the formation of the New 52.

That they then promptly allowed writers like Lobdell et al to go in and change up the parts of the continuity that they didn't like (IE, Tim Drake had been, according to the Batman & Robin book, a Robin complete with tights and big yellow R - but was then retconned by Lobdell in Teen Titans to have never been so) shows a lack of editorial control and - just maybe - some level of understanding that trying to squeeze decades of life events and personal changes into a "five year time span" just wasn't going to work.

They could have very easily allowed Gail to deal with Barbara's injury and recovery, but for whatever reason, they chose not to. Gail had to deal with a very large bear in a very small cage, and she did the best she could. That the book was selling like gangbusters is evidence that the fans loved what she was doing. That DC removed her from it is evidence that they don't care about that. There could be a million reasons why they don't, but for people like myself who were quite happy with Gail's work, there's always going to be some resentment.


jemstone wrote:
thejeff wrote:


Honestly, it might have been better. Given that it was a reboot, the cleanest approach might have been to drop the injury entirely.
I think they did drop Oracle, at least I can't remember any New 52 direct references.
They could also have just assumed a prolonged recovery, but not with years in a wheelchair and a permanent paraplegia that is miraculously cured.
New universe. Never happened.

The problem with this approach is that Didio, Lee, and Johns were incredibly vocal about the fact that the Bat-Family and Green Lantern continuities were coming over into the New 52 "unchanged." So, by their repeated assertions, everything that happened in the Batman lines, and everything that happened in the Lantern lines, was still a factual part of the continuity of the new DCU. There were repeated, strong and sure mentions that the Bat-family and the Lantern-verse were going to be the two things that were left untouched, because they were going to have the most impact in the formation of the New 52.

That they then promptly allowed writers like Lobdell et al to go in and change up the parts of the continuity that they didn't like (IE, Tim Drake had been, according to the Batman & Robin book, a Robin complete with tights and big yellow R - but was then retconned by Lobdell in Teen Titans to have never been so) shows a lack of editorial control and - just maybe - some level of understanding that trying to squeeze decades of life events and personal changes into a "five year time span" just wasn't going to work.

Well of course it wasn't going to work. You can't leave the Bat-family completely untouched while changing the rest of the universe around them, since they've interacted with the rest of that universe. Batman's been in and out of the JLA for his whole career, as have various GLs. Is that all still in continuity, even while the other members have changed? The Titans were instrumental in Dick becoming Nightwing long ago. Is that all still canon? Of course not. What you get is vague handwaving about the details being different but everything somehow turning out the same anyway.

Reboots suck. They're a bad idea. They don't make things simpler. They just confuse the old readers about what the real new history is. Then they just add all the old complexity back in over a few years anyway.


jemstone wrote:
thejeff wrote:


Honestly, it might have been better. Given that it was a reboot, the cleanest approach might have been to drop the injury entirely.
I think they did drop Oracle, at least I can't remember any New 52 direct references.
They could also have just assumed a prolonged recovery, but not with years in a wheelchair and a permanent paraplegia that is miraculously cured.
New universe. Never happened.
They could have very easily allowed Gail to deal with Barbara's injury and recovery, but for whatever reason, they chose not to. Gail had to deal with a very large bear in a very small cage, and she did the best she could. That the book was selling like gangbusters is evidence that the fans loved what she was doing. That DC removed her from it is evidence that they don't care about that. There could be a million reasons why they don't, but for people like myself who were...

BTW, do you know if Oracle was in the new continuity at all? She wasn't tied to the new Birds of Prey. I don't remember Barbara thinking about that role in Batgirl. She also seems younger.


thejeff wrote:


BTW, do you know if Oracle was in the new continuity at all? She wasn't tied to the new Birds of Prey. I don't remember Barbara thinking about that role in Batgirl. She also seems younger.

It's mentioned in passing that she did some "other things" while she was paralyzed, but never specifically as Oracle, no.

As to your point about retcons messing things up, well, I made the same argument that was recently posted to a comics site regarding the reboot:

You can't keep Bat- and Lantern- continuity complete and toss the rest of it away, because that in itself undoes Bat and Lantern continuity. The best case in point being the death of Superman at the hands of Doomsday.

Chain of thought:

- If Clark never fights Doomsday, there is no "Death of Superman"
- If there is no DoS, then we never get The Cyborg Superman
- If there is no Cyborg Superman, then Henshaw never teams up with Mongul and brings WarWorld to Earth
- If that never happens, Coast City never gets wiped off the map
- Hal Jordan never becomes Parralax
- No Parralax means no destruction of Oa and the main battery, means no Kyle Rainer, means all of GL canon falls apart.

And so on and so forth.

Taking this sort of approach - the "cram it all into 5 years and make it fit even if it doesn't want to" approach - is the absolute worst way to do a reboot. Marvel made a much better choice with the Ultimate Marvel line, where they started fresh, from step one, and left the other universe (relatively) intact. Had DC taken that approach, I don't know if it would have been successful, but it certainly would have allowed them to keep the old fans happy while drawing in new crowds. UltM showed that that approach worked quite well.

I'm still irked at how DC let Gail know she was off the book, though. No class. No class at all.

RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8

1 person marked this as a favorite.

@jemstone

That's one of the reasons Earth-2 interests me more than the 'core' DC universe.

I don't have to worry about Jay's daughter, or her mom. I don't have to worry about if Jade died in final crisis, or if Obsidian is still around. It's a clean break, old 'friends' in new forms.

Do I miss them? Sure! I enjoyed both Jade and Jessie Quick. Like I enjoyed Scandal, Ragdoll, Black Alice, Catman, porn-stache Deadshot etc. But at least I don't have to deal with 'what's in continuity and what isn't.'


Matthew Morris wrote:

@jemstone

That's one of the reasons Earth-2 interests me more than the 'core' DC universe.

I don't have to worry about Jay's daughter, or her mom. I don't have to worry about if Jade died in final crisis, or if Obsidian is still around. It's a clean break, old 'friends' in new forms.

Do I miss them? Sure! I enjoyed both Jade and Jessie Quick. Like I enjoyed Scandal, Ragdoll, Black Alice, Catman, porn-stache Deadshot etc. But at least I don't have to deal with 'what's in continuity and what isn't.'

Yeah, pretty much this as my entire point. Leave the old stuff where it is, splinter the new stuff off.

Earth 2 and World's Finest are currently my two favorite lines of the entire New 52 for precisely this reason. They're followed closely by I, Vampire, Swamp Thing, and Animal Man, also because of this (those three books being furthest removed from the main N52 river).

Paizo Employee Publisher, Chief Creative Officer

Charlie Brooks wrote:
Erik Mona wrote:

Between Batgirl and Firestorm, I'm starting to worry that perhaps Gail has lost some of her old magic.

Given the current state of DC, I'd give Simone the benefit of the doubt here. It seems that there is a lot of editorial interference everywhere, and I wouldn't doubt that said interference might have hampered her writing. I find that theory to be more realistic than the notion that she went from the heights we saw in Secret Six to the lows of Batgirl practically overnight.

This is definitely fair. Criticisms of DC editorial have been widespread since the relaunch, and it's obvious that many, many balls have been dropped.

Paizo Employee Publisher, Chief Creative Officer

DeathQuaker wrote:
For the first, DC likes to believe the universe is one where the only real human beings are cis-gender males. They probably can't even brain the idea of a transgendered person, let alone acknowledge their existence or be tolerant about it.

This is a pretty bold statement given that they've included gay characters in books like Teen Titans, Earth 2, Stormwatch, and Batwoman, and they have a full-on transgendered character in Demon Knights.

It's not like there isn't considerable room for improvement, but the way you speak in superlatives doesn't really jibe with what they are actually publishing at the moment.

Paizo Employee Publisher, Chief Creative Officer

jemstone wrote:


Earth 2 and World's Finest are currently my two favorite lines of the entire New 52 for precisely this reason. They're followed closely by I, Vampire, Swamp Thing, and Animal Man, also because of this (those three books being furthest removed from the main N52 river).

You'd probably also like All-Star Western and Sword of Sorcery, as their time-displacement fits them nicely into your criteria. Demon Knights also counts, though it's a touch closer. A touch closer still (but likely to appeal to you since you like Swamp Thing and Animal Man) is the revamped Justice League Dark.


Erik Mona wrote:
DeathQuaker wrote:
For the first, DC likes to believe the universe is one where the only real human beings are cis-gender males. They probably can't even brain the idea of a transgendered person, let alone acknowledge their existence or be tolerant about it.

This is a pretty bold statement given that they've included gay characters in books like Teen Titans, Earth 2, Stormwatch, and Batwoman, and they have a full-on transgendered character in Demon Knights.

It's not like there isn't considerable room for improvement, but the way you speak in superlatives doesn't really jibe with what they are actually publishing at the moment.

The word you're looking for is "hyperbole," not "superlatives." And yes, I agree I was being extremely hyperbolic--exaggerating ridiculously to make a point. Being angry and having PMS will do that. But if it bothers you, I'm just a stranger ranting on the Internet, try not take it too seriously (advice I ought to take more often myself, in truth).

Secondly, and perhaps more to the point, I never said anything about how DC treats gays.

Paizo Employee Publisher, Chief Creative Officer

You're right to call out my misuse of words. Well played.

I confess I don't know what the acronym/abbreviation "cis" means, but I did specifically point out one transgendered character in the New 52. I included the gay characters as context that DC has at least tried to more inclusive of the LGBT community in their range.

I understand that isn't what you were referring to, specifically, but I do think it is relevant.


Pathfinder Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules Subscriber

If I remember correctly 'cis' is generally intended to mean individuals whose mental, physical, and biological gender all match.
That such a term is even necessary is...
occasionally jarring to me. But then I have the good fortune to be a cis-gendered, white hetero-sexual male. About the only way I could be more at the top of the heap is if I were rich.
I like to think I minimize my contribution to making the lives of people who don't have everything align as simply I do more difficult, but it is always a process of self-examination.
Kind of like every other aspect of life.

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