Goblinworks Executive Founder
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Ok, Ryan, so.
First question, small scale issue:
With my CE account/char I do whatever I want, kill anyone I want, and hand every piece of gear, every resource, and every single coin, item of value, everything acquired, over to my second account, who proceeds to make anything I want, and hand it back.
My second account, of course, lives in the best settlement in the world, with access to everything/anything I need or want, because they've never done anything "wrong".
Your second account will have a low reputation, because of all of the trades with your main. His settlement, seeing the low reputation and the effect that rep is having on the settlement rep, kicks him out.
CEO, Goblinworks
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With my CE account/char I do whatever I want, kill anyone I want
You'll very likely be unable to kill whomever you want. A lot of characters will be more powerful than you, and have better stuff than you, and when you die and lose stuff, it will be harder (more expensive) for you to replace it.
So your CE guy starts off with big handicaps.
But let's continue:
and hand every piece of gear, every resource, and every single coin, item of value, everything acquired, over to my second account, who proceeds to make anything I want, and hand it back.
Trading directly with CE characters could be considered a chaotic and evil act. So doing a direct character-to-character transfer could rapidly degrade the alignment of your non-CE character.
You have an inventory problem. PCs can't carry that much stuff; certainly not stacks of armor and weapons. So you'll need to arrange for transport in bulk of some kind, from the place where your CE character has accumulated it to someplace else. That's a vulnerable supply line; who guards CE-linked materials?
If you could get your stuff to a market and sell it anonymously, the buyer wouldn't have that problem. But as s CE character your available markets will be small and inefficient so may not have many buyers.
Your good PC has to go to somewhere your CE PC can meet them to transfer items for sale. That means your good PC is going to have to go into dangerous places. How do you ensure that your good PC doesn't get ganked by the kinds of a&!!*$&s who live in the places your CE character lives?
My CE char or group of CE chars then have the absolute best equipment money can buy.
"Best" in Pathfinder Online means having lots of keywords, not having big mechanical bonuses. So your CE characters have Vorpal Blessed Flaming Human Bane weapons - but the crappy trainers in their settlement mean that they can't learn how to use the character abilities they need to make use of those keywords.
What stops an extremely devoted group of individuals from making the best possible settlement entirely for CE characters?
The Common Folk (the "sims" of Pathfinder Online) rightfully avoid CE Settlements like the plague. The wise and learned who can teach the ways of spell and sword don't risk their lives and reputations by living in such places. The gods who permit temples to be consecrated in such places have little of constructive use for their worshipers and are instead more focused on blood and pain.
Life in such a Settlement sucks. When the people from the bigger, better, stronger, more advanced Settlements show up, you get your ass kicked. Your Settlement gets burned down, and you have to go and find someplace else to build a new one, and start the whole process over again.
Being a CE Settlement is like hoisting a banner that says "Heroes Needed Here!" Every half-baked Conan wannabe is going to be constantly hanging out near your Settlement looking for an easy Bounty.
Doesn't sound fun to me.
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Goblin Squad Member
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it is a risk, because I am sure that you find being chaotic/evil to be cheap and something easy to get to. And when you try to trade you cannot get rid of it, you will have everyone hunting you down.
And eventually your trade mule will be shunned and ignored, another risk. Overall, people who are going chaotic evil will be asking for it, and I am sure that the lawful/good - neutral charters will have a field day the moment they decide enough is enough and trash a place like that.
So now what I'm hearing, in addition to my long list of other things to put me on the fence, is that victory in PVP will be based on gear/training, and not skill? And the main reason Chaotic Evil characters will start to "suck" is because they won't have access to these things as readily, or at all?
That's not risk and reward, that's adding a grind curve to being a jerk.
"Finally got that last training I think I need, time to go start butchering some newbs!"
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Goblin Squad Member
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So now what I'm hearing, in addition to my long list of other things to put me on the fence, is that victory in PVP will be based on gear/training, and not skill?
It will be based on player skill still, as the gap between newbie and veteran is not that great. A group of newbies is supposed to he able to take on a more advanced character. Or at least survive the encounter.
It will be based on player skill still, as the gap between newbie and veteran is not that great. A group of newbies is supposed to he able to take on a more advanced character. Or at least survive the encounter.So now what I'm hearing, in addition to my long list of other things to put me on the fence, is that victory in PVP will be based on gear/training, and not skill?
Right, that's what I'm saying. With Shephen and Lee's video talking about the diminished power curve, but then Ryan's statements that "if your settlement sucks, you suck"... well, if your settlement sucking means you don't get access to gear/training?
A Chaotic Evil player is probably going to be PVPing a large portion of the time. If the skill they develop by doing so doesn't allow them to easily outclass Lawful Good characters, I am coming to the natural conclusion that this must be because of what they lack: Training and Gear.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Ryan Dancey
If being CE is so bad and gimps the character so bad then where is the justifiable advantage to being CE that makes beibng CE not in fact griefing?
If in fact being CE is so horrible why not simply eliminate it and all of the behavior that could lead to it.
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CEO, Goblinworks
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Some folks revel in being the underdog. Some folks would prefer to have unlimited freedom to do what they want even that makes them disadvantaged. Some folks will think they can outwit, outlast or overcome our resistance to greifing.
Some folks want to Roleplay CE. Some players are just dumb and won't figure it out until they get burned. Some players want the ability to prove they can go to the Dark Side and gain redemption.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Ryan Dancey
If being CE is so bad and gimps the character so bad then where is the justifiable advantage to being CE that makes beibng CE not in fact griefing?If in fact being CE is so horrible why not simply eliminate it and all of the behavior that could lead to it.
I think it's kind genius in a sick way to allow gankers to play and become the "meat " for the good players. Plus you do need some live CE, the joker can be fun adversary every once in a blue moon.
I understand the reservations people have, but the truth is if the DESIGNERS OF THE GAME, truly want to punish gankers and ban hackers, they can. The ability to do so has always been there in every online game ever made.
At the end of the day it's about the faith you have in the devs to do what they say they are going to do.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Some folks revel in being the underdog. Some folks would prefer to have unlimited freedom to do what they want even that makes them disadvantaged. Some folks will think they can outwit, outlast or overcome our resistance to greifing.
Some folks want to Roleplay CE. Some players are just dumb and won't figure it out until they get burned. Some players want the ability to prove they can go to the Dark Side and gain redemption.
Question,
is there a way people can work their way back from CE to say NE or even LG?
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Goblin Squad Member
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I am cautiously optimistic as well. I don't like being robbed, but if the game has steep penalties for ganking behavior then I can live with it.
Now no system is airtight, and creative players will find exploits. What I will ask of Ryan and his team is STAY ON TOP OF THE FEEDBACK. It seems like you intend to, but I think especially in this extended beta phase and on into the general opening this will be crucial.
Many of us have had our hearts broken by PvP. A lot of us don't trust the PvP community (or rather the small fraction of the community that likes killing others for straight up lulz). Unrivaled perversity, cunning and creativity often blend in the serious ganker. I'm willing to go along for the ride, I just hope that the mechanics are in place, and that they are adjusted in a timely manner when the inevitable exploits are discovered.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I would like to know what disadvantages they would get from training first THEN going chaotic evil. From the information provided it seems that since they would already have all the skills and abilities necessary, they wouldn't have any disadvsntages, and since they couldn't do much with new abilities, they'd play for free.
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I would like to know what disadvantages they would get from training first THEN going chaotic evil. From the information provided it seems that since they would already have all the skills and abilities necessary, they wouldn't have any disadvantages, and since they couldn't do much with new abilities, they'd play for free.
It almost sounded like in order to maintain use of the training badges (is that the mechanic?) players would have to stay within certain alignment areas. I suppose it's akin to paladins losing abilities if they stray from the path.
My hope, that in our attempt to stamp out overt griefing we don't go overboard by penalizing good PvP. I really love the idea of kingdoms or even guilds declaring war upon one another for resources and access to areas.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I would like to know what disadvantages they would get from training first THEN going chaotic evil. From the information provided it seems that since they would already have all the skills and abilities necessary, they wouldn't have any disadvsntages, and since they couldn't do much with new abilities, they'd play for free.
Well considering it takes like 2.5 years to "max out" that is an awful long waiting period to be a ganker. That player can go ahead and be the "black knight" if they want to they earned it lol.
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@RyanD:
Well Ryan, I must say that I honestly wish you the best of luck in your endeavor. Unfortunately however, as I've stated earlier in this thread, "Some scars never fade", and the entire concept of PVP looting is anathema to me.
Regardless of what's lootable, how small of a value it may be, or how easily replaceable it is, it is still my time being wasted. I'll agree with you that it adds value to PVP, but the problem is that it adds value to meaningless PVP. It creates an entire culture of "I'm going to kill you for your stuff." It reduces heroes to the same status as mobs - Kill them to see what drops off the random loot chart.
There is no such thing as "high value items" with these sort of systems, because the highest value items become the ones that people aren't afraid to lose. Anything higher then that becomes relegated to the status of stash-bait or "look at my sweet collection of magic items I'll never use because I might drop them if someone ganks me or I die'.
I also think that your policy regarding Chaotic Evil players is interesting, but I am relatively sure that the policy of crippling their character development is going to either have to be toned back to the point of meaninglessness or you will find no one for your Lawful Good players to wage war against.
Unfortunately, I am a man of my word. As expressed earlier in the thread, PVP looting is a subject on which I have no room for negotiation or compromise. It is a shame, because while I'm sure that while you probably consider me a royal pain in the behind, I appear to have been one of the few people here that isn't just a yes man, and wasn't afraid to step up and challenge you. I wish I could have remained here to do so, personally I feel a stronger and better game is forged from the fires of contention, argument, and debate then a dozen people telling you that every single decision is the best one ever - for that small subset of people.
While I fully understand that on a whole it is a meaningless and token gesture, I also cannot in good conscience spend my hard earned money on something that I do not fully support. So it is with a heavy heart that I have just completed cancelling my pledge.
I wish you and your team the best of luck, and I hope the game is successful for what you envision it to be. But for me, it seems that you are making a PVP game with some Pathfinder, and not a Pathfinder game with some PVP. And, as you stated "Not everyone is going to like the game." Trust me, I wanted to like it.
--Robb.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Well Ryan, I must say that I honestly wish you the best of luck in your endeavor. Unfortunately however, as I've stated earlier in this thread, "Some scars never fade", and the entire concept of PVP looting is anathema to me.
Good luck to you Robb, maybe you need to hear about it working in action before you stop in and try it. If that's your line then go ahead and tune back in when it's up.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I would like to know what disadvantages they would get from training first THEN going chaotic evil. From the information provided it seems that since they would already have all the skills and abilities necessary, they wouldn't have any disadvsntages, and since they couldn't do much with new abilities, they'd play for free.Well considering it takes like 2.5 years to "max out" that is an awful long waiting period to be a ganker. That player can go ahead and be the "black knight" if they want to they earned it lol.
I'm more concerned with groups of well established bored veterans after years who've seen and done it all and decide to take on that sort of behavior. It happens in most games eventually. Maybe because they'll see it as a "hard mode"
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Ryan
Doesn't that make a huge assumption that people won't just wait until they get powerful and have that training and gear before turning to evil?
I seem to remember EVE Online's issues with particular long term well thought out malicious events.
Plus as I'm not inclined to want to play a serial killer or the like, what makes you think you'll have this horde of people roaming around your game taking down these evil characters?
Also a side note your coming off as extremely rude with some of your posts. These people are trying to help you make a better game not attacking you.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@All - lots of points to make.
Player Loot: When you die, other characters may get part of your carried inventory. That's a hard & fast rule.
The elements of the design that are being worked on determine what of your inventory is vulnerable to being looted and how you can influence that vulnerability.
What This Means
1: You won't leave an area you consider extremely safe carrying valuable inventory. Because you'll spend a lot of time in areas that are not safe, you'll accumulate a lot of Gear that you can afford to lose. Having some of your stuff taken off your body is not the end of the world when that stuff represents a small fraction of your net worth.
2: Attacking other players has an upside in that the stuff you loot from them may be worth the effort. This will create a value in PvP and therefor people will engage in it.
3: The accumulation, loss, and replacement of Gear on a very regular basis drives the economic engine, which makes harvesting resources, processing and transporting crafting materials, and crafting items a worthwhile and interesting part of the game.
4: People will carry too much valuable stuff, get killed, loose it, and quit in anger. It's the nature of the beast. Sometimes they come back after a cooling off period, sometimes they leave forever. Pathfinder Online won't be a game everyone likes to play and we're OK with that.
Guard Contracts: Like Bounties, they'll work best when you offer them to known trustworthy individuals or groups. Offering an open contract to guard something is going to be pretty darn risky. Offering it to a Chartered Company with a great reputation for showing up and beating off interlopers, and not acting as spies for the interlopers will be the smart thing to do.
If you "cheat" on a Guard Contract and gank your employers, that will not be considered griefing. They should have done a better job vetting their employees. Your reputation will collapse quickly and your alignment will quickly shift to...
Thank you Ryan for the post. This is the one that convinced me to back the project fully now and start talking to my circle about it.
@Morg, I think he was being definitive, not rude. He was clearing the misconceptions.
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CEO, Goblinworks
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I would like to know what disadvantages they would get from training first THEN going chaotic evil.
I'm speculating because we're way off the blank sheet of paper here and this is stuff Lee and Stephen have just begun to think about.
Access to some character abilities could be linked to Settlement features. If your Settlement loses that feature, or you lose access to a Settlement with the necessary feature, you could find that your character can't "do that thing" anymore.
Some keywords could have alignment restrictions so they don't work if you're CE, even if you have the right training and abilities.
Some character abilities could have alignment restrictions so they don't work, or don't work as well if you're CE.
The upkeep costs for certain aspects of a Settlement could be much higher if it's CE, so there's effectively a "tax" for living in one.
Just some spitballing.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Ryan
Doesn't that make a huge assumption that people won't just wait until they get powerful and have that training and gear before turning to evil?
I seem to remember EVE Online's issues with particular long term well thought out malicious events.
Plus as I'm not inclined to want to play a serial killer or the like, what makes you think you'll have this horde of people roaming around your game taking down these evil characters?
Also a side note your coming off as extremely rude with some of your posts. These people are trying to help you make a better game not attacking you.
It is in the game's best interest that evil nations exist. It's even in the game's best interest that they employ gankers. It is also in the game's best interest that overall, the good guys win.
I'm am so not caught up in the exact mechanics of how all this work out. It will be one thing on the drawing board and another in beta and another when the flood gates open and yet another when the game reaches maturity.
I'm going on the basis that the game I have always wanted would be sword and sorcery and based on EVE. I'm going on the fact that EVE was not my game because exactly as Ryan Dancey said, it was "made by wolves for wolves".
Don't get twisted up iver a specific mechanic, it's the philosophy of the game that must stay pure and true.
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CEO, Goblinworks
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given zerging has been confirmed as a viable strategy, it will be happening on launch day. Just like every other MMO that has this "feature".
The zerg gankers go CE quickly, get kicked out of their Settlements, and have to deal with all the consequences. Pretty soon "zerging" becomes non-fun. Viable targets are harder to find, they find themselves being hunted constantly, and the territory where they can operate gets squeezed.
A bunch of 1 day old PCs are not going to be able to be more than a nuisance to a competent small group of older PCs. Constantly creating new characters to zerg won't reward you with ganks - or it won't reward you with many ganks, and most of the people you manage to gank will have little or nothing of value on them so there's no reward for the gank except for the lulz.
My experience is that when people are constantly getting killed, they get angry and quit. We want the people who get angry and quit to be the people causing the problem in the first place.
Nothing in the "throwaway alt zerg" strategy helps them.
RyanD
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Goblin Squad Member
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Unfortunately, given zerging has been confirmed as a viable strategy, it will be happening on launch day. Just like every other MMO that has this "feature".What I mean by that is, the 2.5 years is meaningless if you lose all your customers the first month due to roving bands of zerging gankers who just delete the characters and start again as soon as they hit CE alignment.
Similarly, as described, if necessary, there will be a threshold that players will reach, and then do the same thing. That is, if skill xx/yy is required to kill _ANY_ player with a roving gang of 5 to 10 friends, then they will all have exactly that skill, reached in the minimum amount of time. Throwaway zerg mules.
So the griefers will enjoy staying low level and being the weakest players in the game just so they can kill newer players? I don't think you've got the psychology of this type of player correct. This game has no PvP armor to grind for, no PvP "score" to stroke an E-peen. This type of player wants to be uber not roadkill.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I would like to know what disadvantages they would get from training first THEN going chaotic evil.I'm speculating because we're way off the blank sheet of paper here and this is stuff Lee and Stephen have just begun to think about.
Access to some character abilities could be linked to Settlement features. If your Settlement loses that feature, or you lose access to a Settlement with the necessary feature, you could find that your character can't "do that thing" anymore.
Some keywords could have alignment restrictions so they don't work if you're CE, even if you have the right training and abilities.
Some character abilities could have alignment restrictions so they don't work, or don't work as well if you're CE.
The upkeep costs for certain aspects of a Settlement could be much higher if it's CE, so there's effectively a "tax" for living in one.
Just some spitballing.
I was thinking along the same sort of lines. Works for me! Thanks for that!
I appreciate what you're trying to achieve even if I don't always agree with the mechanisms. I still think even with the things I don't like, over all I'll enjoy the things I do more than I dislike the things I don't.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I was thinking along the same sort of lines. Works for me! Thanks for that!I appreciate what you're trying to achieve even if I don't always agree with the mechanisms. I still think even with the things I don't like, over all I'll enjoy the things I do more than I dislike the things I don't.
Let's not get too overboard. Evil nations will be important to have. Evil nations that make use of CE players/chars that gank will also be something we want in the game. The trick is creating the right balance and I suspect that will be the challenge for the entire lifespan of the game.
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Goblinworks Executive Founder
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and so, for those wondering, there is your risk vs. reward!That's a cost, not a risk. To reach that alignment you've accepted the cost already, like someone willing to pay 5 gold for something worth 3 for whatever reason.
Technically correct. Added cost is a negative reward, not a positive risk.
The typical reduction of risk/reward is 'expected outcome', and both increased costs and decreased rewards reduce expected outcome.|
Goblin Squad Member
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A bunch of stuff that details a beautiful vision of a fully produced game assuming everything that has ever been said in a blog post ends up being implementable, functional, and viable in the game.Look, Raven. I get what you're trying to say, and that's a beautiful vision of what things *could be* like.
But we're talking about a game that is what, in current plans, 4 or 5 years away from being developed?
You cannot take blog posts as being gospel. I can't think of a single game that didn't have features dropped because they just ended up being unworkable, unfun, or didn't work as planned.
I can't debate against an idealized vision of the future viewed through rose-colored glasses. It might be like what you're saying, or it might turn out to be completely different. Lots of things change in 4 years.
About the only thing I can say about what you've described is it sounds a lot like a sitting duck scenario.
Using the same logic you’ve just applied to my post. Isn’t it pointless to debate the PVP system outlined lined by the devs (including player loot drops) as the game is still an unreality?
You’re basing your viewpoint of PVP and player looting on the blogs and comments of the dev’s, which is exactly the same as what I’m basing my understanding of the game on. Sure much can change between now and when the game goes into Beta, but we can only have a discussion now, that is based on the most current information we’ve been told.
If everything is implemented in game as has been discussed in the blogs, then the reasons why you’ll likely take a group to harvest a rare resource in a PvE game are the same reasons you’d take a group to do the to harvest in a PvP game.
This game isn’t a themepark MMO, with areas tailored to your level. If you choose to go exploring or harvesting, you will enter areas that are dangerous and outside of your power level to deal with. There may be some visual clues that you’re entering a dangerous area, but if you choose to ignore those clues then don’t be surprised if you character dies repeatedly from PvE content.
Therefore you’ll need to weight up the risk vs rewards, and perhaps take a group with you into the dangerous/rewarding areas. Even with the PVP elements removed, you’d still have the same problem of dying, dropping some gear, and perhaps never getting it back, because you went alone instead of with a group to protect yourself.
While I’m not a fan of PvP nor the loot dropping system, I can see how it will add meaningful player interaction and excitement. Which is why I’m prepared to put aside my scientism until I get to play the game. If how they implement it isn’t to my liking then I’ll walk away. Until then I choose to be cautiously optimistic.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Let's not get too overboard. Evil nations will be important to have. Evil nations that make use of CE players/chars that gank will also be something we want in the game. The trick is creating the right balance and I suspect that will be the challenge for the entire lifespan of the game.
I was thinking along the same sort of lines. Works for me! Thanks for that!I appreciate what you're trying to achieve even if I don't always agree with the mechanisms. I still think even with the things I don't like, over all I'll enjoy the things I do more than I dislike the things I don't.
Lawful Evil nations will be more important.
Chaotic evil almost be definition is hardly a nation at all.|
Goblinworks Executive Founder
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given zerging has been confirmed as a viable strategy, it will be happening on launch day. Just like every other MMO that has this "feature".The zerg gankers go CE quickly, get kicked out of their Settlements, and have to deal with all the consequences. Pretty soon "zerging" becomes non-fun. Viable targets are harder to find, they find themselves being hunted constantly, and the territory where they can operate gets squeezed.
A bunch of 1 day old PCs are not going to be able to be more than a nuisance to a competent small group of older PCs. Constantly creating new characters to zerg won't reward you with ganks - or it won't reward you with many ganks, and most of the people you manage to gank will have little or nothing of value on them so there's no reward for the gank except for the lulz.
My experience is that when people are constantly getting killed, they get angry and quit. We want the people who get angry and quit to be the people causing the problem in the first place.
Nothing in the "throwaway alt zerg" strategy helps them.
RyanD
Plus at some point anything that successfully evades the intended cost for a behavior becomes exploiting a bug.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Lawful evil nations that employ CE players/groups is something we want in the game.
Lawful Evil nations will be more important.
Chaotic evil almost be definition is hardly a nation at all.
It is the "chaotic" alignment that decreases your town's abilities. They won't be so keen to have chaotic evil associated with their towns either.
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Goblin Squad Member
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How is this information not already in your global/overarching/master design document!?Holy buckets, batman! Red flag! Pull the e-brake, there's no bridge!
This is... well it's... just... astonishing you haven't worked this all out already. If I were an investor, I would be VERY VERY concerned. Not exaggerating at all, my jaw dropped when I read your post. I was speechless.
Although, in retrospect, that does explain why you have been so reticent to discuss these incredibly important mechanics in detail. :(
RE: throwaway-alt-zerg means they delete the character and start again as soon as it's inconvenient. They don't do it as CE. They roam the countryside in groups of 5-10 preying on groups of 1 or 2.
I see no public information released so far that prevents this "for lulz" playstyle from being perfectly viable, forever. As described, getting crap/good/uber gear is not a problem for anyone with two accounts, so I'm not seeing how this isn't going to be a constant problem.
Personally, with that tone, I think you're trolling at this point which is kind of ironic considering the type of gaming behavior you are so loathe to.
But I'll give it a shot anyways.
Why would investors be worried about systems that won"t even be need for FOUR YEARS!. 4. Cuatro. We aren't even talking about major stuff, these are scripts we talking about.
And you are clearly not paying attention if you don;t understand by the 10th page that having the equipment means zilch if you can't train to use it.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Ryan
With the alignment issues with directly dealing/trading with CE characters... one work around would seem to be to go to location X in the wilds with both characters, one character drops some goods, the other player picks them up.
I think your ideas sound brilliant, I just hope that there is some real thought and action put in to stopping these work arounds.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@vjek
Really? You're 'VERY VERY concerned' about a mechanic or control that will only be required when a character has been in play for 2+ years, for a game that is at least 2+ years from beta? Four plus years before this is a concern.
I would prefer developers to work out the alignment mechanics (PvE and PvP) and the progression of character mechanics before worrying about the issue you're so concerned about.
Doubly so in a game that can be policed by its playerbase.
For example: CE ganker whacks someone - you hire assassins, bounty hunters, guards, a church of opposing alignment, mages to scry, a barbarian horde to ravage the settlement the ganker lives in, Tony to make some bread, druids to 'cleanse' the woods around his settlement...the list goes on endlessly.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Ryan
With the alignment issues with directly dealing/trading with CE characters... one work around would seem to be to go to location X in the wilds with both characters, one character drops some goods, the other player picks them up.
I think your ideas sound brilliant, I just hope that there is some real thought and action put in to stopping these work arounds.
Assuming you CAN drop things on the ground. I really hope you can.
But yes there is at least the point that they may not be able to use the items to their full potential.