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Reroll before the result is revealed?


Pathfinder RPG General Discussion


What is with all these different abilities that allow you to reroll a save (or other roll) before the actual result is revealed?

Am I missing something? Or is it on the assumption that you may calculate your result (roll + modifiers) but before you are given the DC you are meant to beat?

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Roleplaying Game, Tales Subscriber
Lythe Featherblade wrote:

What is with all these different abilities that allow you to reroll a save (or other roll) before the actual result is revealed?

Am I missing something? Or is it on the assumption that you may calculate your result (roll + modifiers) but before you are given the DC you are meant to beat?

It means that if you wait for the DM to tell you the result of the roll, you've lost the opportunity to invoke the reroll power. The idea is kind of like Schrodinger's famouse cat experiment. Until you open the box, the cat can be either alive or dead, but once you've looked, the event is determined and sealed.


That second part there. My GM personally tells us the DC for most things as we go along (and I think many do) but by rules I don't think they're SUPPOSED to based on Feats like that.


I try not to tell players the DCs their characters need to beat.

This rerolling ability is interesting when it comes to skills that should be rolled by the DM without the player seeing what the result is, like Disguise and Disable Device.

Andoran

Pathfinder Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Adventure Path, Card Game Subscriber

For those times you roll a 1 and you pretty much know that ain't gonna work.


TClifford wrote:
For those times you roll a 1 and you pretty much know that ain't gonna work.

This, pretty much. If you're really good with math in your head, you can try and quickly figure out what roll you need to pass the check, and then decide based on that. If I would notice one of my players doing that, though, I would probably let it slide. Those feats are sub-par anyway, and I want to encourage my players to take feats they like rather than the "best" feats (which is all they seem to take).

Sorry. Another thread. Furthermore, it is my opinion DMs should never tell their players DCs, ACs, To hits, damage, SLAs, or whatever else a monster may have on it. That's for the DM to know and the players to find out. Besides, if you ever need to fudge, it becomes impossible without the players knowing.

And once again, that's another thread.

These re-rolls are meant to be done when you roll awful and know that it will fail.

Silver Crusade

1 person marked this as a favorite.

This mechanic, and the similar 'you may add +2 to a die roll 3/day, buy must choose to add the bonus before the roll', have always bugged me, especially the latter!

If you can add +2 (for example), but only before the roll, then there is only a one in ten chance that your vaunted new ability is any use at all, and it's totally random if it works or not. The truth is that if you ever think it's a crucial enough roll to bite the bullet and use the damn thing then nine-out-of-ten times you are disappointed. This leaves a bad taste in your mouth!

If you could choose to add it after the roll, then according to how much you've been paying attention, you are much more likely to be rewarded by changing a failure into a success, leaving you with a warm glow about the ability!


Bonuses to attack rolls are one area where reroll abilities are most useful. If you have multiple player characters beating up on a single enemy, you have probably narrowed down its AC fairly well. In that case, even if the DM has not told you whether your attack hit or missed, you have a pretty good idea based on prior attack roll results.

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

What gets really awkward is when you have the ability to force someone else to re-roll before the results are revealed. If the GM rolls behind a screen, exactly what is your opportunity to force the re-roll? :/


Jiggy wrote:
What gets really awkward is when you have the ability to force someone else to re-roll before the results are revealed. If the GM rolls behind a screen, exactly what is your opportunity to force the re-roll? :/

What do you mean? You mean you can force a player to re-roll, but the GM rolls behind the screen for him?

In that case, hopefully the GM knows that you have that ability, and will say something like "OK, I rolled a three for that check - do you want to use your power to make me re-roll it?" If it's something that needs to be secret...I don't know of anything like that. I know saves and the like, but can you force a re-roll on skill checks with some Inquisitor ability?

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

TheRedArmy wrote:
Jiggy wrote:
What gets really awkward is when you have the ability to force someone else to re-roll before the results are revealed. If the GM rolls behind a screen, exactly what is your opportunity to force the re-roll? :/
What do you mean? You mean you can force a player to re-roll, but the GM rolls behind the screen for him?

No, I mean force the NPC/monster to re-roll something. A dual-cursed oracle, for example, has a Misfortune ability that allows them to force a creature to re-roll a d20 and take the new result. Obviously, a prime use of this would be on the monster's save against one of the oracle's spells. But if the GM rolls the monsters' saves behind the screen, when do you use the ability?

Shadow Lodge

Easiest way to deal with that is to tell the DM something like: "If you roll below an X, I use my ability to force a re-roll." Then the DM tells you whether you should spend the ability.


As a GM, I simply ignore the, "only before the result is revealed" portion. It's a pain in the butt to accommodate. Players roll dice and call out their results, and I tell them if they succeeded or not. Since this exchange is acted out hundreds of times, adding a pause in between to allow for potential re-rolls isn't worth the effort.


Blueluck wrote:
As a GM, I simply ignore the, "only before the result is revealed" portion. It's a pain in the butt to accommodate. Players roll dice and call out their results, and I tell them if they succeeded or not. Since this exchange is acted out hundreds of times, adding a pause in between to allow for potential re-rolls isn't worth the effort.

Well, when it's the player's rolls in question, I'd expect them to look at the dice and say "I'm using a reroll" before even calling out their results. No need for a pause. Often it'll come before even adding the modifiers: "I rolled three. Reroll!"

Forcing someone else to take a reroll is trickier to run, but not impossible. Weirdo's suggestion is a good one.

Andoran

Pathfinder Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Adventure Path, Card Game Subscriber

Letting someone reroll after the results are know is a heck of a lot more powerful then rerolling before the results. Pretty much you know when you failed a roll. You know that 5 or less isn't going to do the trick so you give it a second shot.

As for allowing you to add to a roll after the effect, that is even more nuts. Basically a +2 before the roll x/day is a manuever or skill that you try out this round. Sorta like a feint. It only works a couple of times a day, but it still has a chance to fail. By allowing them to add the plus after the roll, it makes sure it always works. As a GM, I wouldn't give the PCs that kind of power. Close misses are part of the game. If you can say 3 times per day, that close miss now is a hit, too powerful.

Silver Crusade

TClifford wrote:

Letting someone reroll after the results are know is a heck of a lot more powerful then rerolling before the results. Pretty much you know when you failed a roll. You know that 5 or less isn't going to do the trick so you give it a second shot.

As for allowing you to add to a roll after the effect, that is even more nuts. Basically a +2 before the roll x/day is a manuever or skill that you try out this round. Sorta like a feint. It only works a couple of times a day, but it still has a chance to fail. By allowing them to add the plus after the roll, it makes sure it always works. As a GM, I wouldn't give the PCs that kind of power. Close misses are part of the game. If you can say 3 times per day, that close miss now is a hit, too powerful.

The Adaptive Luck halfling alternate race trait from APG allows you 3/day to either add +2 before the roll OR add +1 after the roll!

I wait for chances to add the +1 after, because I want it to be useful. I have to say, though, that the opportunity to use it that way hasn't come up yet for my PFS bard Niamh Snowmane. It relies on knowing that the roll you just made failed by exactly one.

I don't think DMs need to fear it!


Jiggy wrote:
TheRedArmy wrote:
Jiggy wrote:
What gets really awkward is when you have the ability to force someone else to re-roll before the results are revealed. If the GM rolls behind a screen, exactly what is your opportunity to force the re-roll? :/
What do you mean? You mean you can force a player to re-roll, but the GM rolls behind the screen for him?
No, I mean force the NPC/monster to re-roll something. A dual-cursed oracle, for example, has a Misfortune ability that allows them to force a creature to re-roll a d20 and take the new result. Obviously, a prime use of this would be on the monster's save against one of the oracle's spells. But if the GM rolls the monsters' saves behind the screen, when do you use the ability?

There is a basic inconsistency between your GM's playstyle and your oracle's ability that you will need to work out with him, since he is allowing himself the possibility of fudging a dice roll. Since you normally want the GM's rolls to fail, if he rolls dice and said that he misses an attack or fails a save, you have no reason to say anything. But if he is making a roll that you could influence, he either needs to announce the number rolled or make a house rule that you can indeed force a reroll when he has declared a success.


So, based upon what some have said. I roll a natural one. I thus “know the results’. Thereby I can’t reroll. Or once we find out what the DC or AC is, we can no longer use this ability, right?


DrDeth wrote:

So, based upon what some have said. I roll a natural one. I thus “know the results’. Thereby I can’t reroll. Or once we find out what the DC or AC is, we can no longer use this ability, right?

No. Don't over interpret.


I will often hint at the DCs by the description of how close they were.

"You easily hit the goblin"
"You blade skitters against its thick hide, not quite hitting true"
"Your spell is cast and you see him looking confused for a moment before shrugging it off"
"You see the monk jump across the roof. He nearly misses his mark as he scrambles the last foot"

These descriptions have given the players a guide to figure out approximate difficulties based upon what they roll and what their allies roll.

As for GM rolling behind screens, I have pushed our group to get away from that. I roll in the open and encourage others to do such when they GM. It removes the "GM is trying to screw us over" mentality after the 4th critical in a row is confirmed against the fighter in major fortification full plate.

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