Character Study: Lawful, Neutral, or Chaotic? (Case 1)


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion


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Okay, Considering some mild complexity involved with a certain character, I'm conflicted about which alignment she classifies as in the scheme of Law vs Chaos. And While I have my own ideas, I'm a little Biased so I want you all to Judge her.

Here we go, This one's either a Wizard or a Sage Bloodline sorcerer:

-The character has an extremely tactical mind, and is able to organize her life to extremes. She helps run several events with this skill.
-She rarely imposes rules on others, she merely gives insight and knowledge.
-She has Several times lied, and once attempted to steal a scroll from a private Archive.
-She has good relations with royalty, however this is more because she is the student of one of the Princesses.
-She Has once caused absolute Chaos in a town in an attempt to make up for a single deadline that she wasn't prepared for.
-Once suggested building an exact replica of a town that was falling apart, so that it wouldn't mar the visit from her Teacher (the princess).
-Has Fits of Rage at times.
-Once helped out another girl who had stolen the Princesses Royal Pet, so as to take care of it. Which let her to lie about it to the Royal Guards.
-Obsessed with knowledge, to the point that nothing will stop her from obtaining it. Rules be damned.
-An A+ Student. Very Studious, and diligent in her studies.
-Has the Tendency to freak out when her plans fail.
-Is Skeptical Minded when things don't conform to logic.
-Once Dressed up as a Masked Superhero in order to teach her friend not to let her pride go to her head for saving a few people.(When said friend was acting like she was a superhero, even without a costume).
-Her Friends have an awful habit of breaking stuff.
-Although is good with tactics and time management, can barely keep a library organized; and often seems to be the one that puts the library out of order.
-Went crazy at her brother for not telling her that he was engaged.
-Yelled out that the Bride of a wedding was Evil at the top of her lungs. (It was a shape-shifter pretending to be the bride, but not the point.)
-Didn't hesitate to do something childish in-front of the Princess's niece, simply because they did it when they were young.

What Alignment does that^ Sound Like?

P.S. Anyone who knows which character I'm talking about, please don't mention who it is without Spoilers.

Grand Lodge

BlueStorm wrote:
P.S. Anyone who knows which character I'm talking about, please don't mention who it is without Spoilers.

As you wish.

Neutral.


Oh I know who it is. I'd say very Lawful but with a low wisdom so she doesn't realize what havoc she's unintentionally making happen.


Darigaaz the Igniter wrote:
Oh I know who it is. I'd say very Lawful but with a low wisdom so she doesn't realize what havoc she's unintentionally making happen.

Plausible, but she's not always doing it unintentionally.

If you recall, she tried to steal from an archive. Circumstances aside; that at least warrants a second look.


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Darigaaz the Igniter wrote:
Oh I know who it is. I'd say very Lawful but with a low wisdom so she doesn't realize what havoc she's unintentionally making happen.

Nope. All points scream "chaotic". Being an ordered person has nothing to do with being lawful.


Nelith wrote:
Darigaaz the Igniter wrote:
Oh I know who it is. I'd say very Lawful but with a low wisdom so she doesn't realize what havoc she's unintentionally making happen.
Nope. All points scream "chaotic". Being an ordered person has nothing to do with being lawful.

I sort of agree with this. You could make a case for Neutral as well, but she seems to do what she wants, consequences be damned.

Alignment is more of a guideline then it is a force in the universe acting on someone. The person seems more likely to act in an unpredictable way then anything else. She seems to be friends with authority but does not seem to respect it, which indicates she likes the individuals not the titles. She does not really seem to do anything at all that would make me think she was lawful. She seems to do a lot that makes me think she is Chaotic.


Nelith wrote:
Darigaaz the Igniter wrote:
Oh I know who it is. I'd say very Lawful but with a low wisdom so she doesn't realize what havoc she's unintentionally making happen.
Nope. All points scream "chaotic". Being an ordered person has nothing to do with being lawful.

I disagree. Lawful is often interpreted as ordered and methodical, while chaotic is often interpreted as fluid and dynamic.

However I do think you're right. Outside of the ordered bit all the points seem classically chaotic to me, though an argument for "leaning neutral" could be made. I guess it all depends on her motivations.

She mostly just sounds childish and annoying.


If planning out your every second of every day for the next three months isn't lawful, I don't know what is.


She looks more obsessed than ordered. CN.

Silver Crusade

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:D

Oh this is awesome. :)


Darigaaz the Igniter wrote:
If planning out your every second of every day for the next three months isn't lawful, I don't know what is.

Following the law, respecting your betters (and not trying to con them), not disrupting the peace. And I quote "Rules be damned".

Chaotic doesn't mean ADD or lolrandom. Revolts, Rebellions and uprisings have to be planned very careful to succeed.


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So yeah, totally know what you're referencing. I quite approve.

I'd class the character in question as Lawful, but with low wisdom and tendency snap under stress and probably some mental instability.


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The safest answer would probably be Neutral, if just because there seems to be compelling arguments for both Lawful and Chaotic.

With such a mix of lawful and chaotic tendencies, I'd definitely vote Neutral on this one.

RPG Superstar 2015 Top 8

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I don't know who this is, so I am only going by the description provided.

PRD wrote:


Lawful characters tell the truth, keep their word, respect authority, honor tradition, and judge those who fall short of their duties.

Her respect for authority seems to be based upon personal loyalties, not because they are authority figures. She only judges those who fall short of their duties when it is in relation to her own personal goals. The other items do not fit or there is not enough information. But so far it doesn't look like lawful is a good fit. Let's keep going.

Quote:


Chaotic characters follow their consciences, resent being told what to do, favor new ideas over tradition, and do what they promise if they feel like it.

She seems at least inclined to follow what she thinks is the correct course of action first (is skeptical of others, breaks rules if she needs to). The rest, not enough information (I don't know if she resents being told what to do, etc.). But chaotic looks vaguely more positive. Continuing on.

Quote:


Law implies honor, trustworthiness, obedience to authority, and reliability. On the downside, lawfulness can include closed-mindedness, reactionary adherence to tradition, self-righteousness, and a lack of adaptability. Those who consciously promote lawfulness say that only lawful behavior creates a society in which people can depend on each other and make the right decisions in full confidence that others will act as they should.

She seems to have no allegiance to honor. Trustworthiness I don't know--but her sometime reckless behavior may make her unreliable. She doesn't have especial obedience to authority (as noted above). Close-minded? Not sure--the skepticism was mentioned, but that's it. Reactionary adherence to tradition--nothing in that description implies that at all. Self-righteousness? Possibly, but in honesty, I think that's a poor descriptor for lawfulness--anyone can be self-righteous (it's how you back the righteousness that implies your ethos). She doesn't seem to lack adaptability--indeed, she seems to be both creative and have good tactics, so that would appear to be the opposite. And I don't see anything in the description that she would believe only lawful behavior creates a productive society.

Quote:


Chaos implies freedom, adaptability, and flexibility. On the downside, chaos can include recklessness, resentment toward legitimate authority, arbitrary actions, and irresponsibility. Those who promote chaotic behavior say that only unfettered personal freedom allows people to express themselves fully and lets society benefit from the potential that its individuals have within them.

She seems to hold her personal freedom as a high priority, and she seems adaptable and flexible, given she can be rigid and structured when required and fluid and following her emotions at other times. The items described hit reckless, arbitrary actions, and irresponsibility fairly well, at least at some moments. Don't know about resentment toward legitimate authority, but then again, her loyalty to the local authorities is based on personal relationships, not upon the social role they play. I don't her feelings on personal freedom and its contributions toward society.

Quote:


Someone who is neutral with respect to law and chaos has some respect for authority and feels neither a compulsion to obey nor a compulsion to rebel. She is generally honest, but can be tempted into lying or deceiving others.

All of these things also actually suit her fairly well, from what I can see in the description.

Based on the guidelines provided in the core rules, I'd say she is most likely chaotic or possibly neutral with regards to ethos.

And of course she doesn't have to match the descriptions precisely anyway, as they are guidelines but she hits most of the major points.

The only apparent arguments toward lawfulness in the OP, if I am reading between the lines correctly, is that she is logical and tactical and is capable of being personally orderly, but as noted in the quotation above, those items are not actually necessarily lawful traits. Being ordered and respecting external structures can be two quite different things.


Well... I think DeathQuaker seems to have practically overshadowed everyone else in this thread; to the point it may have "Ended". (Or Arguably won.)

So, any final words before we put this to bed? Or maybe a miraculous chance at reigniting the issue?

Otherwise... Thank you for participating everyone, you've had some good input; and been a wonderful help.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Darigaaz the Igniter wrote:
If planning out your every second of every day for the next three months isn't lawful, I don't know what is.

OCD doesn't quite fit well into alignment charts.

Chaotic Neutral without a doubt. She's just not being played the way the vast majority of idiots who play Chaotic Neutrals ham up the alignment.

RPG Superstar 2015 Top 8

BlueStorm wrote:

Well... I think DeathQuaker seems to have practically overshadowed everyone else in this thread; to the point it may have "Ended". (Or Arguably won.)

So, any final words before we put this to bed? Or maybe a miraculous chance at reigniting the issue?

Otherwise... Thank you for participating everyone, you've had some good input; and been a wonderful help.

Well, I'm sure there are other opinions, but I hope the PRD-based analysis was helpful. :)


DeathQuaker wrote:
BlueStorm wrote:

Well... I think DeathQuaker seems to have practically overshadowed everyone else in this thread; to the point it may have "Ended". (Or Arguably won.)

So, any final words before we put this to bed? Or maybe a miraculous chance at reigniting the issue?

Otherwise... Thank you for participating everyone, you've had some good input; and been a wonderful help.

Well, I'm sure there are other opinions, but I hope the PRD-based analysis was helpful. [/b]:)

Yes, very helpful, thank you!

    Chaotic, and potentially evil acts:
  • She has Several times lied, and once attempted to steal a scroll from a private Archive.
  • She Has once caused absolute Chaos in a town in an attempt to make up for a single deadline that she wasn't prepared for.

    Chaotic acts:
  • Once helped out another girl who had stolen the Princesses Royal Pet, so as to take care of it. Which let her to lie about it to the Royal Guards.
  • Obsessed with knowledge, to the point that nothing will stop her from obtaining it. Rules be damned.

    Lawful acts:
  • none

    Good acts:
  • none

    Signs of poor impulse control:
  • Has Fits of Rage at times.
  • Has the Tendency to freak out when her plans fail.
  • Went crazy at her brother for not telling her that he was engaged.
  • Once suggested building an exact replica of a town that was falling apart, so that it wouldn't mar the visit from her Teacher (the princess).

    Not related to alignment:
  • Although is good with tactics and time management, can barely keep a library organized; and often seems to be the one that puts the library out of order.
  • She has good relations with royalty, however this is more because she is the student of one of the Princesses.
  • Yelled out that the Bride of a wedding was Evil at the top of her lungs. (It was a shape-shifter pretending to be the bride, but not the point.)
  • Once Dressed up as a Masked Superhero in order to teach her friend not to let her pride go to her head for saving a few people.
  • Didn't hesitate to do something childish in front of the Princess's niece, simply because they did it when they were young.
  • The character has an extremely tactical mind, and is able to organize her life to extremes. She helps run several events with this skill.
  • An A+ Student. Very Studious, and diligent in her studies.
  • Is Skeptical Minded when things don't conform to logic.
  • Her Friends have an awful habit of breaking stuff.

Overall, I'd say this person is probably either chaotic/neutral or neutral/evil, highly intelligent, and emotionally unstable. However, I find it likely that her craziest hijinks are being reported, and that her normal behavior may be different.

By the way, I have absolutely no idea who we're talking about. Would somebody please post the name in a spoiler?


Spoiler:
Having not watched the entire series, I'm not 100% sure of this, but it sounds like the main character in My Little Ponies: Friendship is Magic.

I concur with the Chaotic/Neutral folks in general. The character hasn't exhibited any particularly Lawful attitudes. I associate Lawful with a means-based approach to the world rather than an ends-based, which is to say that method is as important as the result. The character definitely skews towards ends-based. Any character can be ordered in thoughts and process without being rooted in tradition or a specific code of conduct. I'm not sure whether I would place the character as Chaotic or Neutral, but definitely not Lawful. I feel that a few more Chaotic aligned actions would cement a Chaotic alignment.

I also agree with the low Wisdom argument. It seems to follow from, as Blueluck stated, "Signs of poor impulse control."


BlueStorm wrote:

Okay, Considering some mild complexity involved with a certain character, I'm conflicted about which alignment she classifies as in the scheme of Law vs Chaos. And While I have my own ideas, I'm a little Biased so I want you all to Judge her.

Here we go, This one's either a Wizard or a Sage Bloodline sorcerer:

-The character has an extremely tactical mind, and is able to organize her life to extremes. She helps run several events with this skill.
-She rarely imposes rules on others, she merely gives insight and knowledge.
-She has Several times lied, and once attempted to steal a scroll from a private Archive.
-She has good relations with royalty, however this is more because she is the student of one of the Princesses.
-She Has once caused absolute Chaos in a town in an attempt to make up for a single deadline that she wasn't prepared for.
-Once suggested building an exact replica of a town that was falling apart, so that it wouldn't mar the visit from her Teacher (the princess).
-Has Fits of Rage at times.
-Once helped out another girl who had stolen the Princesses Royal Pet, so as to take care of it. Which let her to lie about it to the Royal Guards.
-Obsessed with knowledge, to the point that nothing will stop her from obtaining it. Rules be damned.
-An A+ Student. Very Studious, and diligent in her studies.
-Has the Tendency to freak out when her plans fail.
-Is Skeptical Minded when things don't conform to logic.
-Once Dressed up as a Masked Superhero in order to teach her friend not to let her pride go to her head for saving a few people.(When said friend was acting like she was a superhero, even without a costume).
-Her Friends have an awful habit of breaking stuff.
-Although is good with tactics and time management, can barely keep a library organized; and often seems to be the one that puts the library out of order.
-Went crazy at her brother for not telling her that he was engaged.
-Yelled out that the Bride of a wedding was Evil at the top of her lungs. (It was a shape-shifter...

1. Lawful(2 pts): your character likes order and, moreover, wants to impose this order on others by organizing events.

2. Lawful (1) neutral (1): still wants things to be ordered and tries to show people the right of it, but if they don't agree, no big deal.
3. Non issue: this would affect the good/evil axis
4. Another non issue unless those people were extremely adverse to law or chaos and they had a means of detecting it. You just have the benefit of position and possibly diplomacy or bluff.
5. Did something bad to hold on to her sense of order? Lawful evil (2)
6. Lawful evil (2) again, did something selfish, ignoring the plight of others, to hold on to your sense of order and how others perceive you.
7. Chaos (2) uncontrolled at times
8. Neutral (1) chaos (1) helped someone who had committed an un lawfull act, and then committed an ulawful (but not necessarily chaotic) act.
9. Chaotic (2) but only because of the way you worded it. Does she try to use lawful methods first and then resort to other methods?
10. Lawful (2) this is why wizards are usually described as being lawfull. Diligent study
11. Lawfull(1) neutral (1) is so concerned with her plans and them working in the manner she envisioned them she freaks out. Not controlled enough for a lawfull 2, but she's trying.
12. Lawfull (2)
13 &14. Non issues
15. Neutral (2) shows elements of both (if I did this again, I'd give law a +1, neutral a 0, and chaos a -1, but typing on an iPad, that's not going to happen.)
16. Lawful (2): you say went crazy, but I doubt that's in the literal sense. Your character was upset because her brother didn't do what is expected in a civilized society. Ie inform family members of important events.
17. Chaotic (2) there are definately more orderly ways of handling this.
18 I'd need more information, but I'm going to put a controversial lawful (1) here because she is doing something that all ready had a set precedent. I'm probably reading this one wrong though.

Alignment can be very objective, so this is not an I'm right, your wrong post. Just some guys opinion. Lawfull (12) neutral (5) chaotic (7).
Subtracting the lowest side(chaos) from the highest (law) we get 5 law 5 neutral 0 chaos.
Over all, I'd say your character is neutral, sliding towards evil, and trying to be lawfull (good)


I'll give it a go, but I don't really hold to the whole Law and Chaos, Good and Evil being woven into the fabric of the multi-verse concept. I see alignment as a very personal topic that relates more to the character's motives and desires and only takes on a larger scope when set in relation to the society they're interacting with. What's lawful behavior in one society isn't necessarily lawful in another; what one culture considers evil isn't necessarily what another would.

First, let me define my view of the terms:

Spoiler:
Lawful: I call this the 'conservative' mindset. Values tradition highly, history, stability, routine and predictability. That isn't to say that they don't succumb to bouts of rage or irrational behavior, but those are the exceptions. They always gravitate back towards rationality and tradition in the end.

Neutral: On the L-C axis, I call this 'liberal' mindset. Keeps tradition in mind, but also balances it with a ready and eager acceptance of progress and new ideas. Tends to fluctuate more between ordered, stable, structured behavior and erratic, spur-of-the-moment behavior and doesn't really have an anchor point that they return to. Tends to value the stable only out of convenience but will often take a gamble to further their cause.

Chaotic: I call this the 'radical' mindset. Novelty, personal rights, and freedom are key. Eschews most matters of practicality, especially restrictive concepts like deadlines and schedules and views 'rules' more like 'guidelines'. May act according to a plan at times, but invariably gravitates back towards 'winging it'.

Good/Neutral/Evil: Has a place in the discussion, though not as high of a focus considering the topic is about the L-C axis. But G-E are personal justifications for L-C behavior and they do have a key role. I call this axis, Cooperative/Independent/Competitive; pretty self-explanatory terms.

Now, to the meat of the discussion: Alignment Profiling.

Spoiler:
-The character has an extremely tactical mind, and is able to organize her life to extremes. She helps run several events with this skill.
Smacks of lawful/conservative behavior. Organization is merely applying personal laws to your surroundings.
-She rarely imposes rules on others, she merely gives insight and knowledge.This is more indicative of motivation for action; a neutral/independent trait. Justification for lawful behavior but from an independent standpoint. Imposition could be a cooperative or competitive aspect (for your own good/I could do it better) but waiting on request implies independent motives.
-She has Several times lied, and once attempted to steal a scroll from a private Archive.
Heavily reliant on context and motivation. If you lie regularly, it could be viewed as chaotic/radical behavior but to do so as an exception to standard methods, a last-resort fall-back, it can still fall in the scope of general lawful attitude. More importantly is whether it was for the good or ill of others/herself.
-She has good relations with royalty, however this is more because she is the student of one of the Princesses.
Slightly lawful/conservative if she puts more weight to the teaching of the princess simply because she is a recognized authority figure.
-She Has once caused absolute Chaos in a town in an attempt to make up for a single deadline that she wasn't prepared for.
Implies more independent attitude; meeting deadlines is lawful behavior but being only concerned with your own lawfulness and disregarding the difficulties it may cause others is independent. Seeing it as a contest or throwing someone else under the bus to meet your deadline is more competitive.
-Once suggested building an exact replica of a town that was falling apart, so that it wouldn't mar the visit from her Teacher (the princess).
Again, requires context. Was this done with collective agreement that it should be done (cooperative) or was it done without regard for what difficulties it would cause others (independent). Doesn't strongly affect the L-C axis.
-Has Fits of Rage at times.
Lawful doesn't mean you lack emotion or that they don't ever get the better of you. But fits of rage are the exception and tend to get in the way of a lawful personality's behavior. Chaotic personalities will rely on emotional outbursts as a standard tool for getting stuff done. This trait implies Neutral at best but I think, given the context of other traits reviewed so far, it can still fall under lawful behavior.
-Once helped out another girl who had stolen the Princesses Royal Pet, so as to take care of it. Which let her to lie about it to the Royal Guards.
This lends more to the good rather than anything on L-C axis.
-Obsessed with knowledge, to the point that nothing will stop her from obtaining it. Rules be damned.
Depends on the kind of knowledge. If knowledge of things already discovered (ie. history, traditional knowledge) then it smacks of lawful. If figuring out new things, chaotic.
-An A+ Student. Very Studious, and diligent in her studies.
Superficial lawful tendency. Demonstrates discipline, a lawful trait.
-Has the Tendency to freak out when her plans fail.
When things go from ordered to disordered, has problems coping. Chaotic minds thrive on disorder and unexpected difficulties. Lawful minds have trouble coping with the unexpected which is why they tend to plan more and rely on the 'tried and true'. Lawful trait.
-Is Skeptical Minded when things don't conform to logic.
Again, relying on a predictable, rigid decision-making process and doesn't take 'new info' without figuring it out first. Lawful trait.
-Once Dressed up as a Masked Superhero in order to teach her friend not to let her pride go to her head for saving a few people.(When said friend was acting like she was a superhero, even without a costume).
Demonstrates a set view on how particular kinds of people "should" act. "Superheroes should wear costumes... it's the rule." Lawful.
-Her Friends have an awful habit of breaking stuff.
What her associations do isn't really indicative of personal alignment. May feel a personal responsibility to be a shining example of more proper behavior for her less-than-structured friends. Lawful possibly.
-Although is good with tactics and time management, can barely keep a library organized; and often seems to be the one that puts the library out of order.
Some are good at spacial organization, others at temporal organization. But just because you're not good at one type of organization doesn't mean you don't value it.
-Went crazy at her brother for not telling her that he was engaged.
Has trouble coping with social expectations not being met.
-Yelled out that the Bride of a wedding was Evil at the top of her lungs. (It was a shape-shifter pretending to be the bride, but not the point.)
G-E axis governs motive, L-C axis governs reaction. Lawful person states their objection for others to hear and take to consideration. Chaotic people jump in and choke-slam the object of their objection.
-Didn't hesitate to do something childish in-front of the Princess's niece, simply because they did it when they were young.
Values tradition and "the way things have always been".

All in all, I'd say this character is L/N.


I'm voting Neutral. Shows both lawful and chaotic tendencies.


Those actions are all totally out of context, and thus impossible to judge.

In context, the character is Neutral Good, as all of those potentially bad things were done because said character believed they were the best/right thing to do, even if they didn't work out that way.


mplindustries wrote:

Those actions are all totally out of context, and thus impossible to judge.

In context, the character is Neutral Good, as all of those potentially bad things were done because said character believed they were the best/right thing to do, even if they didn't work out that way.

Ah the old good intentions justify anything no matter how evil excuse.


WWWW wrote:
mplindustries wrote:

Those actions are all totally out of context, and thus impossible to judge.

In context, the character is Neutral Good, as all of those potentially bad things were done because said character believed they were the best/right thing to do, even if they didn't work out that way.

Ah the old good intentions justify anything no matter how evil excuse.

No, no no. No way will you ever hear that nonsense argument from me. Intentions are less important here than context. Lying to a chick to get laid is a lot different than lying to Nazis to protect the people you're hiding or even just to save someone's feelings.

In a D&D sense, I could say something like:
"Character X killed a foreign dignitary!"

You'd think such a character was evil. But what if the foreign dignitary was the king of the Orcs whose army was ravaging the city and who had just bitten the face of the character's child, right in front of them?

Context is important.:
For example, stealing seems like an evil, or at least chaotic act. But if you knew the character stole the scroll because she believed casting that spell was the only way she could save the world, wouldn't that change things a bit? The fact that she was incorrect should not retroactively make her action evil, just foolish.


From your desc i'd say NG. Knowing the character I'd say Lawful G. A lot of the chaotic actions are to help their friends, or are shown during the more interesting parts of their life. You get the impression that when nothing insane is going on they're a LOT more organized, but that doesn't make for the best story.


mplindustries wrote:
WWWW wrote:
mplindustries wrote:

Those actions are all totally out of context, and thus impossible to judge.

In context, the character is Neutral Good, as all of those potentially bad things were done because said character believed they were the best/right thing to do, even if they didn't work out that way.

Ah the old good intentions justify anything no matter how evil excuse.

No, no no. No way will you ever hear that nonsense argument from me. Intentions are less important here than context. Lying to a chick to get laid is a lot different than lying to Nazis to protect the people you're hiding or even just to save someone's feelings.

In a D&D sense, I could say something like:
"Character X killed a foreign dignitary!"

You'd think such a character was evil. But what if the foreign dignitary was the king of the Orcs whose army was ravaging the city and who had just bitten the face of the character's child, right in front of them?

** spoiler omitted **

Okay, that is fine and all but if that is what you believe then you might want to rephrase for clarity. It is not that potentially bad things were done because they seemed like a good idea at the time, it is that several actions that are completely unaligned or inherently good were done to further the agenda of cosmic goodness. The actions were without exception not evil and the motivation was furthering cosmic good rather then any sort of personal benefit, such as avoiding punishment, not having evil neighbors, helping loved ones, etc.


I'd place her as NN, but leaning toward law and good

the subject's identity:
It's Twilight Sparkle from My Little Pony: Friendship is Magic


Darigaaz the Igniter wrote:
If planning out your every second of every day for the next three months isn't lawful, I don't know what is.

Someone who lives buy their vows and oaths, and supports (through thought and action) a structured regulated society.

A chaotic person with OCD is still chaotic.

Grand Lodge

Insane people are CN, she obviously has mental issues...so CN it is.


Well, I think enough have mentioned their views enough to allow me to get away with my personal opinion at this point.

I Think the main way to tell how her "Natural" inclinations lie would be to ask the question "What if she wasn't a student?" or more specifically, what happens when she "Graduates"?

So far, it seems that most of her "Organized" behavior seems to be focused squarely on performing well as a student. Her schedule Planning, her obsession over detail, Etc. These are all seemingly bent towards her reaching the next "Grade".

Of course, once she surpasses all the knowledge that comes before, she'll probably go off to discover new Knowledge.

And then?

*Shrug* That's the vanishing point. From there we don't know.

However, from what we can see, her tendency to organize is more learned and conditioned through her need to succeed Academically; and beyond that her behavior tends toward Neutral Good.

However, I can easily see her sliding into Chaotic Good. Far easier than I think I should.

-She can hardly keep a secret under pressure when she promised to.
-She keeps insisting that she help a local ranger, despite the Ranger's Traditions.
-When her learned behaviors are no longer of relevance, she wastes no time coming up with a crazy solution.
-She's so emotional that she can fly off the handle and do something drastic at a moment's notice.

In other words, her Neutrality to Law vs Chaos seems to be maintained by the pure virtue of her needing to succeed academically. And without that, she'd be just as chaotic as half of her friends.

And then there's the principle of "Who you are in the dark", where a character shows their true stripes when pushed...

... And when pushed, she turns chaotic.


And suddenly I would like to share new info regarding the character's upcoming appearance in their source. (Sorry no better way of putting it.)

As such, Genuine Spoilers here. Not going to mention her name though, others have figured it out.

Stuff:

Okay, from what we've been Shown, in various spoilers:
-She's called to a test, thinking its an academic test; only to find its more of a heroic trial to save a foreign kingdom. Her attitude to this is essentially "I'm not prepared for this. But I'll do this, since you all believe in me." However It does take the Princess/Mentor several attempts to reassure her she won't fail though before it sinks in.

-Sings and Dances through the streets for a bit.

-Seems to announce a bit too enthusiastically to her friends, Who aren't up to speed on what's going on, that there's been a change of plans; and that instead going to Party to celebrate her passing a test, they are going on a road trip to a place that none of them have heard of before. Her only having heard of it a minute ago.

-The Kingdom she's saving is full of Amnesia. And she somehow comes up with a plan to fix everything, that involves Putting on a Carnival that incorporates things found in the kingdom's history books. Which all of her friends help her with.

Not sure how well these apply to Law vs Chaos, but good to note new information as it comes in.

But it's not like It's anything concrete, considering its only 8 minutes of screen time to work with.


BlueStorm wrote:

<Snippage. Will also try to weed out things I think don't apply to alignment.>

Here we go, This one's either a Wizard or a Sage Bloodline sorcerer:

-The character has an extremely tactical mind, and is able to organize her life to extremes. She helps run several events with this skill.
-She rarely imposes rules on others, she merely gives insight and knowledge.
-She has Several times lied, and once attempted to steal a scroll from a private Archive.
-She has good relations with royalty, however this is more because she is the student of one of the Princesses.
-She Has once caused absolute Chaos in a town in an attempt to make up for a single deadline that she wasn't prepared for.
-Once suggested building an exact replica of a town that was falling apart, so that it wouldn't mar the visit from her Teacher (the princess).
-Has Fits of Rage at times.
-Once helped out another girl who had stolen the Princesses Royal Pet, so as to take care of it. Which let her to lie about it to the Royal Guards.
-Obsessed with knowledge, to the point that nothing will stop her from obtaining it. Rules be damned.
-An A+ Student. Very Studious, and diligent in her studies.
-Has the Tendency to freak out when her plans fail.
-Is Skeptical Minded when things don't conform to logic.
-Once Dressed up as a Masked Superhero in order to teach her friend not to let her pride go to her head for saving a few people.(When said friend was acting like she was a superhero, even without a costume).
-Her Friends have an awful habit of breaking stuff.
-Although is good with tactics and time management, can barely keep a library organized; and often seems to be the one that puts the library out of order.
-Went crazy at her brother for not telling her that he was engaged.
-Yelled out that the Bride of a wedding was Evil at the top of her lungs. (It was a shape-shifter...

Tactical Mind. Organization ability. Not qualities really distinct to alignment

Rarely imposes rules (which means she sometimes does), giving insight and knowledge. - Leans against chaotic.

Lies - Depends. Selfish/petty acts? - Leans evil

Good relations with Royalty - Not really quality distinct to alignment.

Absolute Chaos in town - Oddly? Potentially evil. Self Centered and entirely in disregard of the consequences for others.

Suggested building a replica of town - The motivation seems selfish, but not sure. Again, she didn't want to make herself look bad? - Evil.

Fits of Rage? - Barbarian

Helped out another girl - Dunno

Obsessed with knowledge, will not stop. rules be damned. - Evil. Chaotic.

A+ student. - Not relevant to alignment.

Freak out when plans fail - Potentially not relevant to alignment, unless choosing selfish/violence/etc, then evil.

Skeptical Minded - Not relevant to alignment.

Masked Superhero - Ironic, considering this appears to be a very prideful character basically 'calling out' another character for being prideful - Not sure if alignment, but kinda petty.

Friends break stuff - Not relevant to alignment.

Organization/library - Eh, not relevant to alignment.

Went crazy at brother - Eh, not relevant to alignment. Family is like mental illness, it transcends alignment.

Yelled out the Bride was evil - Im guessing a plot point, not really alignment based, tho potentially telling in the "I'm an attention ho" kind of way.


I think rules be damned point directly to chaotic. She seems to do what she wants in regards to law and order. I do nto see from your description as being lawful in anyway. Just because some is chaotic does not mean they have to break every law they just have no use for them, and would break them when they see fit.


I vote chaotic neutral in the 2nd edition AD&D kind of way. She sounds bipolar.


Chaotic Neutral - Looks out for herself mostly, and can act on whims
Neutral Evil - Selfish

Kind of between the two.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Harrison wrote:

The safest answer would probably be Neutral, if just because there seems to be compelling arguments for both Lawful and Chaotic.

With such a mix of lawful and chaotic tendencies, I'd definitely vote Neutral on this one.

That's actually a strong indicator of Chaotic Neutral. Especially since she tends to flip like a bipolar magnet.


LazarX wrote:
Harrison wrote:

The safest answer would probably be Neutral, if just because there seems to be compelling arguments for both Lawful and Chaotic.

With such a mix of lawful and chaotic tendencies, I'd definitely vote Neutral on this one.

That's actually a strong indicator of Chaotic Neutral. Especially since she tends to flip like a bipolar magnet.

I kind of agree with this, but not fully. I think that those who are inconsistant in their behavior are definitely chaotic, but those who have consistant but contradictory behaviors are much more strongly neutral.


I'd say NN

she does cause lots of chaos, but unintentionally. all her efforts at organizing everything might just be a desperate attempt to have something stable in her life. Look how hard she clings to the image she has of her mentor. That's been the only stable thing in her life for a long time. She hates unexpected change, probably why she freaked out over her brother's wedding.

similarly, while she does awesome (as in inspiring awe) things to save the world, she does things on a similar scale with the little things she sets aside for herself.

tl;dr: NN because she causes chaos but is trying so hard to be lawful, and because she uses the full extent of her power both for the greater good and for her own needs.


Seem's pure chaotic neutral to good occasionally poor.

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