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Ok, there's another thread with daylight/deeper darkness, but the specific text in daylight is it's own case there, and for PFS, I need a lil clarification.
Situation:
PFS Character has an Ioun Torch from APG, functions as a permanent Continual Flame. (which for PFS is actually a 2nd level spell on an item cast by a wizard instead of the 3rd level cleric version, causing this whole confusion)
Continual Flame:
School evocation [light]; Level cleric 3, sorcerer/wizard 2
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S, M (ruby dust worth 50 gp)
Range touch
Target object touched
Effect magical, heatless flame
Duration permanent
Saving Throw none; Spell Resistance no
A flame, equivalent in brightness to a torch, springs forth from an object that you touch. The effect looks like a regular flame, but it creates no heat and doesn't use oxygen. A continual flame can be covered and hidden but not smothered or quenched.
Light spells counter and dispel darkness spells of an equal or lower level.
A creature uses a SLA to cast Darkness, a 2nd level spell, which in this case is equal to the level of the light spell in use. (once again, if it was the cleric version of Continual Flame no issue would arise.)
Darkness:
School evocation [darkness]; Level bard 2, cleric 2, sorcerer/wizard 2
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, M/DF (bat fur and a piece of coal)
Range touch
Target object touched
Duration 1 min./level (D)
Saving Throw none; Spell Resistance no
This spell causes an object to radiate darkness out to a 20-foot radius. This darkness causes the illumination level in the area to drop one step, from bright light to normal light, from normal light to dim light, or from dim light to darkness. This spell has no effect in an area that is already dark. Creatures with light vulnerability or sensitivity take no penalties in normal light. All creatures gain concealment (20% miss chance) in dim light. All creatures gain total concealment (50% miss chance) in darkness. Creatures with darkvision can see in an area of dim light or darkness without penalty. Nonmagical sources of light, such as torches and lanterns, do not increase the light level in an area of darkness. Magical light sources only increase the light level in an area if they are of a higher spell level than darkness.
If darkness is cast on a small object that is then placed inside or under a lightproof covering, the spell's effect is blocked until the covering is removed.
This spell does not stack with itself. Darkness can be used to counter or dispel any light spell of equal or lower spell level
The ruling is that since the stone is using the 2nd level version of CF, the darkness trumps it even tho they are equal level spells. Is this correct? If so, is this intended?
If not for the (IIRC) change from 3.5 to sorc/wiz getting the spell at 2nd level, this would not occur at all, as in 3.5 light was 1st level, darkness 2nd, CF 3rd, and DD 4th, so each new spell was always a higher level than the others before it.
As several of the spell levels in this series were changed, is the Darkness text of "Magical light sources only increase the light level in an area if they are of a higher spell level than darkness." a missed edit, since all other versions of light/darkness have interactions based on equal or higher?
If this is intended, you have the situation where a 5th level wizard with CF cannot counter another 5th level wizards darkness spell by casting it in the area of effect, yet a 5th level cleric can. *(note, no argument on if they can dispel with touch/counterspell with a readied action at the time of casting, clearly those work)
I do not think this was intended, I think it was a glitch caused by copy paste of darkness and moving the spell levels around CF for diff classes, so please hit FAQ and see if we can get a clarification from an official, or if in my searches i missed this same case already please link me the old one.
As far as I know, spells of the same level cancel each other and ambient light prevails. In a dungeon, ambient light is black; outside it varies greatly. (I hit FAQ because I'd love to see an FAQ on light spells because there is a ton of confusion over them; I don't see this as a PFS issue though)
The darkness spell calls out specifically for magical lights to work they have to be higher level only. This is my problem with it, it's the only spell left that doesn't -say-, and for PFS that matters, "equal or higher".
First of all, Continual Flame has always been a 3rd level Cleric spell, 2nd level Wizard/Sorcerer spell. Yes, even in 3.5: Check the SRD. Not that it matters, because this is PFS, not LFR or another 3.5 equivalent.
Second, the rule about the same level spells canceling each other out ONLY applies to the spell Daylight, as it's specifically in the spell description:
"Daylight brought into an area of magical darkness (or vice versa) is temporarily negated, so that the otherwise prevailing light conditions exist in the overlapping areas of effect."
This is not a universal rule for light/darkness spells. It is specific to the Daylight spell. So a Continual Flame spell cast by a Wizard would not cancel out a Darkness spell since they are the same level, and Darkness specifically states that a light spell needs to be higher level to negate it. Continual Flame cast by a Cleric would negate Darkness since it is a Cleric 3 spell.
I do not think this is an oversight.
Quote:
light was 1st level, darkness 2nd, CF 3rd, and DD 4th, so each new spell was always a higher level than the others before it.
Except Light is (and always has been) a 0 level spell, Continual Flame is (and always has been) a 2nd level Wizard/3rd level Cleric spell, and Deeper Darkness is (and always has been) a 3rd level Cleric spell. Plus you have Daylight as a 3rd level Cleric AND Wizard spell if you are really looking for a spell to take the place of Continual Flame in the spell progression you outlined.
k... let me try this explanation and see if it makes sense to you that it works this way. I agree that RAW, it is how it works, my question to the developers is was this how it was intended to work.
4 5th level characters, 2 wizards and 2 clerics.
One wizard casts darkness on his robes, the other casts continual flame on his, and they start walking towards each other. When they meet, they are standing in darkness because the Darkness spell trumps the wizard version of Continual Flame as it is not a higher level spell.
One cleric casts Darkness on his armor, the other cleric casts continual Flame on his armor, and they start walkinig towards each other. When they meet, they are in normal light, as the cleric version of Continual Flame trumps Darkness as it is a higher level spell.
One Wizard casts Continual Flame on his robes, and one cleric casts Darkness on his armor, and they walk towards each other. When they meet, they are in darkness, as the wizards Continual Flame is not higher level than the Darkness spell.
One Cleric casts continual flame on his armor, and one wizard casts darkness on his robes, and they walk towards each other. When they meet, they stand in normal light, as the clerics continual flame trumps the wizards darkness.
It does not make sense to me that 2 characters, casting the same 2 spells, Continual Flame and Darkness, have different effects based on the classes that cast them. Once again, I agree that this is how it works in print, but was it intended to work this way?
So, if I got a ring, that was enchanted with heightened Continual Flame (say rank 4). what would be the cost... AND would it counter DD.
From what I have read, it would not dispel the Deeper Darkness in say the whole room (cause DD is an AOE type spell) but it would in the torch range, ie normal light to x feet, dim to x, dark to x and then deeper darkness after that.
I hear argument that if CF counters DD it is op'd and is effectively daylight, but I think if the above is correct as far as I read it, then the balance is still there,
There is a thread on this. Multiple threads as a matter of fact. Cable is out here though so I can't use my PC to look them up. Continual flame doesn't beat deeper darkness even if you heighten it to 4. There is no clause stating that the light level can't be lowered by a lower level darkness spell. The DD will lower the light level from the continual flame by two levels from normal to dark. At least you stop it from going supernaturally dark though.
Thats the main thing your still in the game with darkvision guys in darkness. But. In dd your screwed especially with some mobs who can cast it at will.
There have been a couple helpful FAQ rulings recently that did a lot to clarify the light/darkness rules. But the interaction of high-level light spells (e.g. heightened continual flame) and darkness spells is one of the remaining indeterminacies.
(Better to have all our FAQ clicks in one place! The devs see the list of pending FAQs sorted by most clicks to least clicks. So the more we pile up on a single post the better our chances of getting an answer.)
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