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Wow. After reading through 187 posts I am really really glad I never got into Pathfinder Society play. Last I checked this was a freaking game. Not some facist rule. If someone is doing something hinky....tell them it isn't going to happen. I understand there are rules, but man this is ridiculous.
This is a forum discussion between what appears to be high level members of the society dictating the rules. I understand that the 'local' level and non-society games aren't probably like this. I also understand with a cannon as large as PF there has to be a little rules on what rules you can use. But if this the the kind of decision making that is being done on the convention level....you can keep it.
I mean we aren't talking about National Championship card games and such where the winner makes actual money. We are talking about pen and paper and dice game. Most of which is played in the mind. Yea dealing with rules monkeys can be a hassle, but that is why you got into the convention for free and in some cases got room and board.
I've run games, demos, and booths for other companies and I really can't believe the dictatorship role that is being shown on these boards. Personally I think this thread and the actions of some of the GMs on here have hurt the society as a whole more than helped it.
Guess I am not glad I never got that second interview for the Venture-Captain position in my town.
National, Dictator and Fascism.
Godwin's Law in effect.
Official time of death, Oct. 22nd, 12:50pm
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I strongly believe the reasoning for requiring print of additional resource material is not to police product legality, but to provide visible clarification on game mechanics so that everyone at the table can stay on the same page without complication. At any table I ever run, I would have no problem accepting a photocopied page, or a pdf printout from a friend of the player.
Is it possible such an item could be from a pirated source? Yes. And if so, that makes me a little sad. But I am more concerned that everyone at my table walks away with an enjoyable experience with the character build they want to run than I am at policing a player's moral decisions I have absolutely no way to verify the truth of.
In a nutshell, this is how I view it at a table I run. I want something that lets me know how the item/feat/trait/whatever in question works and what it does. I would hope the player buys a copy (physical or .pdf) from Paizo to support the game we enjoy, but I'm not about to tell them they can't play something if that's not the case.
Want to play it? Bring something with you that shows me how it works. I may or may not ask; but if I ask and you don't have it, it's not going to work at my table.
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I would just like to take a moment to reiterate my recent point from the other day in regards to this topic.
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Not some facist rule.Having the opinion that a player should be able to provide a legitimate copy of the resource materials for every* character option they've chosen is not facist.
*beyond Core Assumption.
Look, as i'm going out the door to a con i can either remember that the paladin i haven't played in 7 months has a feat from the legacy of fire players guide, OR the soap.
Choose carefully.
:)
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Wow. After reading through 187 posts I am really really glad I never got into Pathfinder Society play. Last I checked this was a freaking game. Not some facist rule. If someone is doing something hinky....tell them it isn't going to happen. I understand there are rules, but man this is ridiculous.This does not really reflect PFS "on the ground", so to speak. I have never seen a DM choose to make a scene out of a player's format of source material.
Cons might be another beast altogether, and this sort of draconican enforcement might happen. I guess you would have to be careful depending in whose table you landed at, since even if you had identified DMs you don't want to be seated with beforehand using the boards, you don't really have the ability to avoid playing with them
I have not seen evidence of GMs doing so either. Not in local games, nor at cons.
I would just like to take a moment to reiterate my recent point from the other day in regards to this topic.
Why you would like to close this thread Mike, is still beyond me. If you tire of it, just go to another thread. Discussion is good, and everyone seems to be quite civil.
Closing said thread would piss off some, and get others to start up a new thread of the same topic. Let people have their say, and move on at their own pace. Freedom of speech - lol
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If legal copies of the material exist elsewhere at the table, I let d20pfsrd pass. I confiscate illegal (non-watermarked) hard copies from the book.
LOL no. You can say "Sorry, you can't use that at my table." You can even say, "You're a terrible person, you file-downloader, you, and you can leave my table." But you have neither the obligation nor the right to confiscate anything from anyone in this context.
Even if you're absolutely certain that someone's photocopy is illegal--I mean illegal, not "against the rules of organized play"--and unless you're a copyright lawyer or it says "LOL I DOWNLOADED THIS" on the paper you probably can't be entirely certain--you're just transferring it into your own possession by confiscating it, which as a private citizen is inadvisable at best and certainly not your legal right.
And if it's not illegal--again, illegal, not against the rules--then it might behoove you consider that GMing for Pathfinder Society doesn't make you anything other than a GM for Pathfinder Society. You have no right to interfere with other people's property.
Seriously, Chris, your posts amaze me sometimes. You're not a cop, you're not their boss, you're not their mom. (Well, you might be a cop, but I sure hope you aren't gaming while on duty.) It's not your place to tell players at your table what they are and aren't allowed to keep in their backpack.
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If legal copies of the material exist elsewhere at the table, I let d20pfsrd pass. I confiscate illegal (non-watermarked) hard copies from the book.LOL no. You can say "Sorry, you can't use that at my table." You can even say, "You're a terrible person, you file-downloader, you, and you can leave my table." But you have neither the obligation nor the right to confiscate anything from anyone in this context.
Even if you're absolutely certain that someone's photocopy is illegal--I mean illegal, not "against the rules of organized play"--and unless you're a copyright lawyer or it says "LOL I DOWNLOADED THIS" on the paper you probably can't be entirely certain--you're just transferring it into your own possession by confiscating it, which as a private citizen is inadvisable at best and certainly not your legal right.
And if it's not illegal--again, illegal, not against the rules--then it might behoove you consider that GMing for Pathfinder Society doesn't make you anything other than a GM for Pathfinder Society. You have no right to interfere with other people's property.
Seriously, Chris, your posts amaze me sometimes. You're not a cop, you're not their boss, you're not their mom. (Well, you might be a cop, but I sure hope you aren't gaming while on duty.) It's not your place to tell players at your table what they are and aren't allowed to keep in their backpack.
Come no Patrick, no picking on Chris, who already amended that first statement... Chris did NOT take anyone stuff :D
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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LOL no. You can say "Sorry, you can't use that at my table." You can even say, "You're a terrible person, you file-downloader, you, and you can leave my table." But you have neither the obligation nor the right to confiscate anything from anyone in this context.
I look forward to your posts after you read the entire thread, Patrick.
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I think everyone is getting caught up in the "Copyright" and "Legal" argument when no one from Paizo has said anything about it.
The Pathfinder Society campaign has rules.
Those rules are not in question. We all know them.
Paizo and Mike could say "to play PFS you must wear a trout on your head and use only blue dice" that is their right.
It has zero to due with what is legal in what country, if you want to play PFS, please follow the rules we have set out. It's that easy.
If people feel that the rule is too much, don't agree with it, think it sucks, etc. then you can use whatever photocopy you want in a home campaign. Lots of people do it, and I like to think Paizo still loves you even when a whole group shares one book and uses a ton of 3pp.
But for the PFS campaign there are rules. this is one of them.
We as PFS judges are not the police, we are not their mom's, what we are however are voulnters that agree to run the PFS campaign according to the rules Paizo and Mike have set out.
One of those rules has to due with people and what books/pdfs they use/have with them.
The argument that "It's a freakin game" or "Come on dick, we are here to make it more fun"
I have several players in my local group that do not find it fun to have their character die. should I ignore the rule that says it could happen?
I am sure others would have more fun if they could play a goblin PC without a boon, should I just let it slide as it "adds to the fun"?
Again, like it or not, there are rules in place. When we agree to judge PFS we agree to follow them.
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I look forward to your posts after you read the entire thread, Patrick.
I saw your amendment.
When I say "confiscate" what I mean is, I explain that, by the rules of the campaign, they can't use that material at the table without either (a) the watermarked PDF, or (b) the physical book, and I ask for the illegal copies. This has happened 3 times in almost 1200 players. If, at that point, someone were to refuse, I would ask them to leave the table.
Your clarification says that you don't lunge across the table and yank it out of their hands. I assumed as much.
But you still insist on taking it from them, and kick them from your table if they don't give it to you. This is a demand which has basis in neither law nor PFS rules.
So I say again.
LOL.
No.
Edit: Too inflammatory. Toned down.
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RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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Yes.
As you say: "You can say 'Sorry, you can't use that at my table.' You can even say, 'You're a terrible person, you file-downloader, you, and you can leave my table.' " I don't even say that, though.
You make it sound terrible but, dude, don't you have any table rules yourself? What about people playing Magic: the Gathering instead of paying attention? Do you ask them to put their decks away? Do you, ah, "...kick them from your table if they don't knuckle under to your demands which have no basis in law or PFS rules?" That sounds horrible!!
Again, it's never been an issue.
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You make it sound terrible but, dude, don't you have any table rules yourself? What about people playing Magic: the Gathering instead of paying attention? Do you ask them to put their decks away? Do you, ah, "...kick them from your table if they don't knuckle under to your demands which have no basis in law or PFS rules?" That sounds horrible!!
Yeah, those cases aren't at all comparable.
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Yeah, those cases aren't at all comparable.
Let me expand on that.
If you insist on using the Magic example, you would be comparing taking away their photocopies to kicking the players from the table for refusing to give you their decks. If you were asking them to put the photocopies away, you'd be right. But you aren't, you're asking them to give them to you. You have no right to do so.
But that's still a terrible comparison, because conduct during play != what they have in their backpacks. To get an equivalent notion, you'd have to come at me with something like, "Do I have the right to kick someone from my table because I'm pretty sure they have pirated songs by my favorite musician on their iPod, even though the iPod was placed in their backpack at the beginning of play and it doesn't affect the game in any way," and I would say, "Maybe, but you also have the right to not GM at all, and I'd really recommend you consider that one instead, because your ruling is awfully draconian."
And that example still wouldn't involve deleting the songs from their iPod for them, which is the equivalent of what you're doing with the photocopies! And if you wanted to do that, I'd just laugh at you and tell you no.
Which is, in fact, what I said to begin with: LOL. No.
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RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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Let's try this, then, since you're hung up on what happens to the bittorrent downloads and photocopies.
I want people to come to Pathfinder Society, have a bucketload of fun, and become a member of the PFS community. If they've got material they shouldn't have, and they bring it to my table, I work with them to get square.
Likewise, if they bring a binder that's a mess, missing Chronicle sheets and any documentation for some of their equipment or spells, I'll work with them to get things put in order.
In the case of downloads and photocopies, I'll find where they can get usable copies, in the spirit of "Your Magus is a cool character; let's see if we can get you the rules to play it." In one case, I volunteered to give away my copy of the Inner Sea Primer for a player, because I knew he was going to need it for the rest of the convention, but he decided to buy one for himself.
I hate to repeat myself, but I've noticed this only 3 times out of 200 or so. Each time, the player has made things right, within a couple of minutes. (Actually, in one case, it was the player's girlfriend who went on-line and bought him a PDF of Ultimate Magic.)
At that point, yes, I'll ask them to get rid of the bad stuff. If they throw it away, that'd be fine.
Some day, I may in fact end up with somebody at my table who wants to keep the downloads or whatever, who doesn't want to make things right, who wants to hold onto them so he can use them at the next table. At which point, he's free to go find that table.
You can take me seriously or not.
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I will say my piece, and if you feel I need to see something in here. PM me, because after I've said my piece. I'm hitting the hide button on this thread because it screams "PFS Cancer".
A) Physical copies, and copies of those copies are 100% legal. M&M have stated so numerous times. You should have them with you. You can even share (1) book between all of your friends as long as all of your friends are at the same table.
B) PDF copies are only for personal use. Period. You can not lend a PDF to a friend for any reason. Period.
C) The only individuals who are supposed to be looking out for Paizo copyright are VO's (Check your NDA, something along the lines of protecting Paizo intellectual property etc.), and Paizo employees assumedly. Everyone else should mind their own business, and stop playing copyright vigilante.
D) A GM has the right to ask you to leave for whatever reason he feels. You have the right to never play at that GM's table again if you feel he was a jerk. You have the right to advertise that that GM was a jerk, and take it up with his leadership AKA a VO or Mike. There is a Karma system of sorts.
E) 5-Star GM's are fantastic volunteers. They are not perfect nor should they be expected to be. I don't always agree with them (Chris and I go back and forth on agreeance depending on the topic), but I do always respect them. You should too.
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Clearly my original statement about the actual authority of a 5-star GM was worded poorly. My apologies.
I was speaking to those who expressed doubts about participating in a Society where very experienced GMs said they would confiscate materials they understood to be illegal.
I was trying to say, don't let 5 stars intimidate you, especially if the person's opinion seems extreme. Yes, it took a long time and a lot of effort to get there, but it doesn't mean they speak for Paizo. 5 stars mean the GM has a lot of experience running PFS games and will consistently provide a fun and fair experience at the table.
Also, it was not my intent to imply that all or most 5-star GMs were overly enthusiastic in their enforcement of the rules. I do not believe they are. In fact, I believe if those in doubt were to play at any 5-star GMs table they would be pleasantly surprised.
These boards are a place to discuss issues, provide opinions, come to a consensus, or define differences. Again, my apologies for any misunderstandings.
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Clearly my original statement about the actual authority of a 5-star GM was worded poorly. My apologies.
I was speaking to those who expressed doubts about participating in a Society where very experienced GMs said they would confiscate materials they understood to be illegal.
I was trying to say, don't let 5 stars intimidate you, especially if the person's opinion seems extreme. Yes, it took a long time and a lot of effort to get there, but it doesn't mean they speak for Paizo. 5 stars mean the GM has a lot of experience running PFS games and will consistently provide a fun and fair experience at the table.
Also, it was not my intent to imply that all or most 5-star GMs were overly enthusiastic in their enforcement of the rules. I do not believe they are. In fact, I believe if those in doubt were to play at any 5-star GMs table they would be pleasantly surprised.
These boards are a place to discuss issues, provide opinions, come to a consensus, or define differences. Again, my apologies for any misunderstandings.
Don,
I personally did not read what you said in a negative light. I know you greatly respect the other GM's of any star level. If this post was in response to my post. My post was simply to make sure the message of 5-stars are highly regarded GM's didn't get lost in the morass of this thread.Oh yea, and I apparently lied last night about hiding this thread. *rolls eyes at self*
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RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 8
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...What about people playing Magic: the Gathering instead of paying attention? Do you ask them to put their decks away?...
Just an aside. I saw this happening a few weeks ago at a table across from mine while I was playing. A player was having a game of magic with people that weren't playing PFS while occasionally looking over to roll dice. It was probably the single most disrespectful thing I've ever witnessed at a table.
I didn't say anything at the time because I wanted to wait to speak to the GM in private afterwards and get his thoughts. I was happy to see they aligned with mine. The player in question hasn't been back to a game at my FLGS since, but I really hope he sits at one of mine next, because is he starts playing a card game while I'm gming -- figurative (or character) heads are going to roll.
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This is a forum discussion between what appears to be high level members of the society dictating the rules. I understand that the 'local' level and non-society games aren't probably like this. I also understand with a cannon as large as PF there has to be a little rules on what rules you can use. But if this the the kind of decision making that is being done on the convention level....you can keep it.I mean we aren't talking about National Championship card games and such where the winner makes actual money. We are talking about pen and paper and dice game. Most of which is played in the mind. Yea dealing with rules monkeys can be a hassle, but that is why you got into the convention for free and in some cases got room and board.
I've run games, demos, and booths for other companies and I really can't believe the dictatorship role that is being shown on these boards. Personally I think this thread and the actions of some of the GMs on here have hurt the society as a whole more than helped it.
Guess I am not glad I never got that second interview for the Venture-Captain position in my town.
First of all, I want to empathize that these are these boards. I have not played with Chris, but I have played with and GMed venture officers from multiple areas, 4 star GMs and a one who will be going for the 5th soon. I am close (53 once everything is reported by the end of the month) to my third star.
The 'strict interpretation' sometimes advocated by some on these boards are, from what I've encountered, doesn't exist. I've only encountered anything like it once, and I simply never see that GM any more. Bluntly, at the conventions I have gone to and the games I have played on about a weekly basis (at multiple stores), anyone who pushed for strict interpretation of 'copywrite rules' would simply not be welcome very long unless they ran a Kick A-- good game.
I think the attitude you complain about only exists at maybe two cons, Gen and Paizo and maybe on the local level by few people. If it is a dictatorship, I would say it's a darn ineffective one.
So please don't go. Play with rational people, and relax.
All the Best,
Kerney
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Don,
I personally did not read what you said in a negative light. I know you greatly respect the other GM's of any star level. If this post was in response to my post. ...
No Daniel. It started with this post and the one's that followed.
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Pathfinder Society Campaign Coordinator
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I will say my piece, and if you feel I need to see something in here. PM me, because after I've said my piece. I'm hitting the hide button on this thread because it screams "PFS Cancer".
A) Physical copies, and copies of those copies are 100% legal. M&M have stated so numerous times. You should have them with you. You can even share (1) book between all of your friends as long as all of your friends are at the same table.
B) PDF copies are only for personal use. Period. You can not lend a PDF to a friend for any reason. Period.
C) The only individuals who are supposed to be looking out for Paizo copyright are VO's (Check your NDA, something along the lines of protecting Paizo intellectual property etc.), and Paizo employees assumedly. Everyone else should mind their own business, and stop playing copyright vigilante.
D) A GM has the right to ask you to leave for whatever reason he feels. You have the right to never play at that GM's table again if you feel he was a jerk. You have the right to advertise that that GM was a jerk, and take it up with his leadership AKA a VO or Mike. There is a Karma system of sorts.
E) 5-Star GM's are fantastic volunteers. They are not perfect nor should they be expected to be. I don't always agree with them (Chris and I go back and forth on agreeance depending on the topic), but I do always respect them. You should too.
Thanks for summing it up well, Dan. Folks, it is a game and (most) players are adults. Use common sense.
If you see someone using anything you think is suspicious (such as a unwatermarked PDF), email us and let us know and let us take care of it from there. Even when I was a police detective and a VC, I only confiscated someone's property one time, and that was because they were stupid enough to pull out a bag of methamphetamine AND were in my jurisdiction. Unfortunate for them that they went to jail. Unfortunate for me that I had to fill out the wrong kind of paperwork on my off day and received a subpoena to court.
Confiscating someone's personal property, even if it is an illegal download, does nothing but draw the wrong attention and could jeopardize your and their safety. It simply isn't worth it. As several have said, most everything mentioned above hasn't happened. On the rare occasion that someone does use an illegal or pirated PDF, just advise them of why it is wrong and then send us the info. As a wise instructor in the police academy once said to my class, if the bank you are in is getting robbed while you are off duty, sometimes it is better to be a good witness instead of a cop.
Chris mentioned how he works with players to get squared away [HERE. In 99% of the times this happen, people have probably made an honest mistake and will thank you for clarifying it. For the 1% of time that someone wants to be a jerk, kindly ask them to leave and report it, then leave it be. We will take it from there.
On a final note, remember that people buying our books or PDFs help to pay our bills. If someone is using an illegal PDF, explain that to them. Let them know we want to continue making cool new books, and not using illegal downloads help us further the efforts to provide new and cool books.
Now, let's go have fun and play Pathfinder and PFS.
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On the original post, where the player only had the d20psfrd.com information, I, also, had a player like that. I did what I could with him, and explained the rules, and we went on to have what I hope was a fun game for him.
I'll know in a few more months, when he comes back from his 9 month deployment, and we see if he comes back to Game Day and plays PFS.
At a recent con, I made a wrong approach to someone who was watching the game I was running. Watching was fine, but he was constantly kibitzing. Instead of offering to let him run one of the pregens that were in use, I asked him to be quiet. My bad.
As to photocopies of books, I am on the side of the folks who think that it just can add up too fast too far.
While I am not handicapped, I am transportationally challenged. I don't have a car, but have to use public transit to get to games unless I am lucky enough to have one of my friends/gamers give me a lift to the game.
Now, riding the bus isn't that bad. Except that carrying too much weight/bulk rapidly gets out of hand. Either game I go to is either two bus rides, each way, or a bus ride and something over half a mile of walking, culminating in a climb up to the second floor.
I have a wheeled backpack, which I use for gaming stuff, but, after purchasing the Bestiary Box, I am finding it difficult to fit everything in there, and the only hard copy I own is the bestiary. I have all the rest of my PFRPG books as PDFs on my Nook. Scenarios, maps, PFS Guide, dice, Bestiary Box, etc. are the materials that take up my backpack when I am going to GM. Remove all but the "emergency" GM materials (the First Steps scenarios and maps), but add in anywhere from several portfolios through 10 portfolios and 4 actual binders for all my PCs.
I just glanced over at my pile of PCs, and it looks to be a stack about 4" tall. I try to keep relevant printout from the PDFs with each PC, but I don't always succeed.
It all adds up in weight, even without the actual books. And I could just see the reaction of a bus driver if I tried to get on the bus with a crate on wheels, and took up some of the handicapped space for my gaming stuff...
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On a final note, remember that people buying our books or PDFs help to pay our bills. If someone is using an illegal PDF, explain that to them. Let them know we want to continue making cool new books, and not using illegal downloads help us further the efforts to provide new and cool books.
Now, let's go have fun and play Pathfinder and PFS.
This. This is what people need to do as GMs who are progressing PFS.
Leave it up to the VOs to identify if something needs to be done, and if there is a trouble player, then get the required information to them.
We are here for a game people, not for work! Mike has elucidated this really well.
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Just an aside. I saw this happening a few weeks ago at a table across from mine while I was playing. A player was having a game of magic with people that weren't playing PFS while occasionally looking over to roll dice. It was probably the single most disrespectful thing I've ever witnessed at a table.
I didn't say anything at the time because I wanted to wait to speak to the GM in private afterwards and get his thoughts. I was happy to see they aligned with mine. The player in question hasn't been back to a game at my FLGS since, but I really hope he sits at one of mine next, because is he starts playing a card game while I'm gming -- figurative (or character) heads are going to roll.
I get really exciteable when I play PFS.
I can't guarantee I won't accidentally knock a pint of sticky beverage over those folk playing card-crack at the edge of the table.
Especially when the games running over time, and we've had to call the player's name three times to take his turn.
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On the original post, where the player only had the d20psfrd.com information, I, also, had a player like that. I did what I could with him, and explained the rules, and we went on to have what I hope was a fun game for him.
I'll know in a few more months, when he comes back from his 9 month deployment, and we see if he comes back to Game Day and plays PFS.
At a recent con, I made a wrong approach to someone who was watching the game I was running. Watching was fine, but he was constantly kibitzing. Instead of offering to let him run one of the pregens that were in use, I asked him to be quiet. My bad.
As to photocopies of books, I am on the side of the folks who think that it just can add up too fast too far.
While I am not handicapped, I am transportationally challenged. I don't have a car, but have to use public transit to get to games unless I am lucky enough to have one of my friends/gamers give me a lift to the game.
Now, riding the bus isn't that bad. Except that carrying too much weight/bulk rapidly gets out of hand. Either game I go to is either two bus rides, each way, or a bus ride and something over half a mile of walking, culminating in a climb up to the second floor.
I have a wheeled backpack, which I use for gaming stuff, but, after purchasing the Bestiary Box, I am finding it difficult to fit everything in there, and the only hard copy I own is the bestiary. I have all the rest of my PFRPG books as PDFs on my Nook. Scenarios, maps, PFS Guide, dice, Bestiary Box, etc. are the materials that take up my backpack when I am going to GM. Remove all but the "emergency" GM materials (the First Steps scenarios and maps), but add in anywhere from several portfolios through 10 portfolios and 4 actual binders for all my PCs.
I just glanced over at my pile of PCs, and it looks to be a stack about 4" tall. I try to keep relevant printout from the PDFs with each PC, but I don't always succeed.
It all adds up in weight, even without the actual books. And I could just see the reaction of a...
I think this is a good post explaining why using common sense in your enforcement and, as Mike said, leaving it to venture officers. You should be more lenient on a weekday night when someone coming from work on a bus may not want a boss getting a glimpse of their Ultimate Combat sticking out of their bag when they can print out that one feat they are needing from PFsrd. Someone realizing they grabbed their UC verses their APG 30 minutes before they start because it's been sitting in their car all day shouldn't be greeted with a Kryra pregen if they have some way of accessing the rules.
Strict enforcement should be saved for those who seem to be 'always' forgetting stuff or at cons where people are expected to have their ducks in a row.
And I don't think I should need to say this is called being a reasonable authority figure.
