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You are definitely going to need to invest in the Quickdraw feat (axes aren't considered ammunition so it's a move action to draw one), quickdraw will let you pull your weapons as a free action instead.
Also since throwing is a quick way to wind up disarmed almost immediately you will also need to invest 5 grand into a blinkback belt. This item will teleport up to 4 light melee weapons (or 2 one handed) back to their sheathes immediately after you throw it away.
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Nicos: any particular reason you picked a Dwarf fighter? They don't really get any abilities that make them better at TWF. All they bring to the table is proficiency with axes, but any fighter would get that (unless we're talking about dual-wielding dwarven waraxes, but those aren't good for throwing).
I mean, yes, for fluff reasons a dwarf would be most likely to focus on axes, but a fighter of any race could wield them, and there are so many races that get a DEX bonus, I'd choose one of them first.
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I normally don't suggest double slice but it would fit this build and you could retrain it later. You got what you need for this build above, but if you intend to do a lot of throwing Point Blank Shot & Precise Shot are going to be essential. May be worth going human if you want everything to be shored up by level 6 - you may find yourself lagging behind a less feat intensive build if you don't.
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Honestly, I think an Elf Fighter would work wonders here, even though I have a hard time picturing an Elf specializing in axes.
As for feats, Charging Hurler could be a worthwhile choice for a character who throws weapons but still wants to get into melee. You'd need Point-Blank, but it's not a priority so you can wait and see how the build fares.
Two-Weapon Fighting needs static bonuses on every hit to shine, so definitely take Weapon Specialization as early as possible, as well as Greater Weapon Specialization. Any other feat that adds damage is worth looking at too, although the only ones I can think of are Arcane Strike (which you can't take) and Precise Strike (which only works if you convince someone else to take it with you).
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Qlippoth-Spawn Tiefling with Prehensile Tail, Fiendish Sprinter, and Maw or Claw alternate racial traits.
This will net you +2 Str, +2 Wis, –2 Int, ability to retrieve items as a swift actions, two primary natural attacks, 10-foot bonus to speed when you charge, run, or withdraw, Darkvision 60ft., and cold resistance 5, electricity resistance 5, and fire resistance 5.
You will be able to Charge farther, hit harder, see better, and resist mind effects better(a weakness of martial PCs).
You will always threaten, and can pull out weapons faster prior to Quick Draw. Later, you can pick up the Grasping Tail feat, and grab unattended items within 5 feet as a swift action, allowing you to retrieve your Axes faster.
what is this blinkback belt and belt of mighty hurling do? Ive looked through the PFSRD but i was unable to find them so Im assuming they are in the ultimate equipment. Any chance anyone can post what they do?
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This thick leather belt is buckled with a bright bronze clasp
in the shape of a fist. When worn, it grants its wearer a +2
enhancement bonus to Strength and allows him to apply
his Strength modifier as a bonus on attack rolls instead
of his Dexterity modifier when making ranged attacks
with thrown weapons. Also, the range increment of any
weapon thrown by the wearer gains a +10-foot bonus.
Treat this Strength bonus as a temporary ability bonus for
the first 24 hours the belt is worn.
just wanted to say love this idea of an axe swinging, axe throwing warrior.now for this build i know it may not power this build up much but for image maybe the psionic weapon thrower.you would have this mortal kombat Nightwolf character that would have glowing weapons that could throw his weapons and have them bouncing around the battlefield.
I know you're talking about Ranger and Fighter but I'll leave this here for everyone's curiosity:
Monk, either Sohei or of the Empty Hand archetypes.
Monks get 1.TWF, 2.ITWF, 3.Double Slice for free, one extra attack for 1 ki, as well as other monk-like tricks.
Sohei: + weapon for ki, Weapon Training
Empty Hand: Any type of dmg, +20ft to range, for ki/swifts, unarmed damage to weapon, increased crit range for improvised weapons.
Enjoy :)
What I like about the Monk is that he can pretty much do anything he needs. He's not in a too bad position if he has to melee - those + to weapons and weapon training from Sohei are still there. They have a lot of versatility vs say a warrior. After level 5-7-9 you can start picking feats not focused on ranged and fullfill other roles, like protector of your mage, stand with him and full attack at long ranges, if somebody goes in for him they'll have you ready to smack them well. Same reason the Zen Archer's decent.
Also: Longshot spell. Real good to have potions of those things.
For funsies: 1 level Barbarian, Hurler: +10 ft to thrown, Rage.
1 level alchemist: Mutagen to boost Dex OR str, potions of Enlarge, Longshot, Shield and other useful stuff.
what is this blinkback belt and belt of mighty hurling do? Ive looked through the PFSRD but i was unable to find them so Im assuming they are in the ultimate equipment. Any chance anyone can post what they do?
Blink Back Belt, 5000 gold, cl7
Allows you to have 2 melee weapons (or 4 light) on the belt, that when thrown inmediately teleport to back to the belt after the attack has been resolved.
This allows you to have, f.example, 2 enchanted Chrakrams to use together with Quickdraw to throw at full BAB.
Feats for these builds that work well:
PBlank Shot, Precise Shot, Rapid Shot, Clustered Shots, Deadly Aim, Close Quarter Thrower, Distance Thrower, Hammer the Gap (amazing with extra monk attack especially sohei since you're getting good + to weapons).
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Re: Elf, my first thought was that a Halfling would be good because of their DEX bonus and that they fit the image of a simple woodcutter forced to take on impossible odds. Then I remembered the STR penalty and decided Elf would be better. Too bad halflings don't still get a +1 to throwing weapons!
Human probably would be the best for this, since you pretty much need all the feats you can get. Perhaps a level dip in Rogue to get a sneak attack die if you're TWF, or barbarian so the rage can shore up your STR score? I believe there are some decent rage powers that get bonuses to throwing.
OK.
For this.
You need to clarify if you want Throwing to be your BE ALL AND END ALL!
Or if you simply want it as an option when you aren't adjacent to full attack.
Now persist with axes if you want but with only a 10 ft range, honestly you are better off closing and full attacking.
Like I said in my fighter guide TWF builds should be full attacking 90% of the time.
Moving is their handicap cause you can't TWF+Move.
Unless you are a Two Weapon Warrior (can TWF at level 8)
Or a Dawn flower Dervish/Mobile Fighter (but Rapid Attack is not till1q and costs your best attack)
Plus the BEST way to draw AGGRO as a fighter is to Do so much damage, ignoring you equals death.
Best weapon is Definitely a CHACKRAM. 30ft range. 19-20Crit.
This weapon let's you forget closing. It can hit anything within move distance (double that if you accept -2 for range penalty).
My suggestion?
Two Weapon Warrior *Dedicated Melle, Backup Thrower*
Str 16 (18 for Human)
Dex 15
Con 14
Int 10
Wis 12
Cha 7
Skills 2+1Human+1Favored= 4 per level
Traits: Latent Psion: +2 vs Mind Effecting (Losing a will save sux)
and Defender of the Society (+1AC in Med Armor. Making a Agile Breastplate a +7 AC item.)
1-TWF, PA, Quickdraw
2- Weapon Fcs (Battle Axe/[ooc]Mechanically SCIMITAR is better)
3- Iron Will
4- Weapon Spec
[b]How to play+4 to hit and damage via 18 str is awesome. You are better off with weapon/cestus as your pairing. That way you can 2hand charge power attack up to 60ft away.
Have lots of Daggers so you can TWF full attack in difficult terrain or if you get hit with a tangle foot bag. The best part about TWF/throwing is being able to split targets. You could main hand Throw a Cestus at a foe 30ft away AND offhand throw a dagger at a foe 10ft away. I have done this. Awesome visual.
BUY FEATHERSTEP BOOTS ASAP.
5- Point Blank Shot (30ft is your standard throwing range)
6- ITWF
7- Rapid Shot (Between Bracers and PBS, negates the -2 for the extra attack, so you only take normal TWF penalties)
8- Gtr Weapon Focus
How to play it
Once Improved Balance comes online you can switch to PRIMARY AND OFFHAND chakrams when you throw. (You treat them as light weapons for TWF) You get full Two Weapon Training bonus and TWO WEAPON DEFENSE when you full attack. Which means the bonus is online ALL THE TIME since you can comfortably hit anything in 60ft.
Must Buy: Their is a Shirt which grants an extra MOVE action 1/day. That's free Pounce.
Plus Bracers of Falcon's Aim (+1 to ranged attacks for 4000gp)
9- Combat Reflexes
10- Double slice
11- Pin down (Now you can AOO any foe who withdraws or 5ft steps. And normal moves provoke as well)
12- Dazing Assault
13- TWRend.
How to play it
Now you are a genuine Switch hitting TWF, thrower. With multiple options for hitting things reliably in 60ft. Anything in that range can be full attacked for big damage.
You can TWF as a standard IF you have to move.
You get AOO's for ANY KIND of move in your threatened area (go two handed axe, until EQUAL OPPORTUNITY comes online, then TWF AOO.)
Sorry not more detail. At work.
- Failed will save? Monk
- High fort high ref? Monk
- Short movement? Monk (not sohei thou)
- -hit for chakram (non light)? Monk (Sohei flurries with any weapon at 6)
- Same +hit as a warrior when Full Attacking? Monk
- More hits than a warrior? Monk (or level in ninja)
- Bonus feat to burn on defense? Monk (FoBlows give the necessary twf feats)
- Good Combat Manuevers? Monk (f.ex Ki Throw, bonus feat)
- Threaten when Unarmed? no problem if sleeping without armour? Monk
- Have Quick Draw want Snake Style, Crane Style or so? Monk! (boosts defense incredibly and compatible with QuickDraw I believe
- Skills? Monk has more
- No penalty for very high Dex (armours)? Monk (Agile Weapons, if allowed, allow you to ignore STR, although I like STR builds)
NOTE WELL: Ranged Weapons use DEX to HIT and STR to DMG
(if Agile weapons are allowed, put all on dex)
Just laying it out, in case anybody had doubts of why that was a decent choice. I've done some numbers and damage output is similar. At very high ends of levels warrior feats probably take over, but has to be what, 15 or something?
Using the two weapon warrior archetype DOES get full weapon training.
The two weapon warrior gets a 'two weapon style' version of weapon training. It applies to any weapon you use when you TWF. Be it scimitar/cestus/chakram or table leg. You get the full bonus.
You also get 'Two Weapon Defense' under the same conditions. +5 to AC more than makes up for the loss of regular armor training (considering you get +7 to AC off the Agile Breastplate)
The only thing the chakram misses out on is weapon fcs/spec on the chakram (it should be put on scimitar instead. ) so you can dual wield 2 scimitars in melee and get a crit every round (be human and take versatile critical)
Nicos: any particular reason you picked a Dwarf fighter? They don't really get any abilities that make them better at TWF. All they bring to the table is proficiency with axes, but any fighter would get that (unless we're talking about dual-wielding dwarven waraxes, but those aren't good for throwing).
I mean, yes, for fluff reasons a dwarf would be most likely to focus on axes, but a fighter of any race could wield them, and there are so many races that get a DEX bonus, I'd choose one of them first.
Dwarven Maulaxes are actually fairly nice. They have B & S damage, the range increment of a Throwing Axe(10') and the Crit multiplier of the Handaxe (x3).
Sure.
Build stays the same.
Normally TWF builds (particularly Two Weapon Warrior, who has a lot of high level class abilities keyed of Crits) wield Scimitar/Cestus to fish for crits (at least until Doublestrike and Improved Balance come online- then you dual wield scimitars).
If you wanna go with an Axe just Go with a Battle axe/Cestus combo (remember the cestus is so you can 2 handed power attack with the axe if you have to move or AOO).
Once you get Improved Balance just go with 2 axes.
Now with that weapon I would forget crits.
Instead of Keen on both weapons buy 2 keen scabbards (6000gp each. Keen 3/day). On one Axe get the menacing property (+4 to flank, instead of 2) and get Guardian on the other (let's you add enhancement to Saves. Blowing a will save sux)
Forget crit focus and Versatile crit. Have a flank buddy. Now take the Dazing Assault feat. It's always on/off as you want and the DC is decent. The way most DM's adjudicate it is 1 save per attack action.
1 full attack= 1 save.
When the enemy provokes via Pin down, AOO= 1save.
So the foe makes 2 saves vs 10+Your BAB per round. Or he stands their trading full attacks for 1 save per round. Either way he doesn't attack your buddies.
So you do big damage and lock down a Big Bad.
Retrain Dazing Assault at 16 for Stunning Assault. (Makes them drop their weapon).
Response.
You don't need to TWF on AOO. That's why you pair an Axe/cestus. You don't get Two Weapon bonus but you DO get the 1;3 PA ratio and 1 1/2 STR to damage. Nor do you take the -2 for TWF. And later on you get a class ability which does let you TWF on AOO's.
And custom magic rules. Pay to get some Two Weapon Warriors Gloves made. Same as Duelist gloves but works with two weapon training.
Same goes for Sash of the War champion. Any DM who won't allow it is a d!ck.
Ya got me on TWD as not applying to ranged. Plenty of other ways to screw over archers, Hey GOD, how about you port me right next to that Archer please? being among them.
Plus any archer not currently threatened by an Chakram throwing death machine is gonna try to kill the wizard, cause, Y'know he's GOD.
I can only speak from experience.
I play in about 10pbps and 3 real life games at any given time (check my profile to see current games).
Duelist Gloves acting on what is a very, very similar (some would say more limited, you yourself said you can't TWF all the time) ability is not much of a stretch and I have not encountered a DM who would say no.
But each to his own. The Dawn flower Dervish Archetype DOES get normal weapon training and if his DM allow duelist gloves to work for TWW then he should go dervish.
Axes being his first group and Heavy Blades his second.
As for the whole wiz bit. That was one example.
Low level? TWF throw back (if close enough). Get to cover and circle around. Wear your 1000gp shirt of Pounce. Most low levels in APP's take place inside/in dungeons.
Higher levels? Boots or Cape or Carpet of Flying.
Again TEAMWORK. Let Melees fight melees. That's what they are best at. The clerics buff and backup. Ranger can shoot or Switch hit. Wizards can shut down problems which the others can't handle.
I play a Hexcrafter in a game that has a Melee focused pally and barb. If we encounter an Archer then I evil eye, my imp uses a wand of ill omen and I slumber him.
Point is nobody expects every class to solo every challenge.
The OP wanted a TWF that could throw effectively. I helped.
Many GMs do not allow custom magic items at all. Many, perhaps most, wizards are not going to open with dimension door for you....
You're acting rather entitled. Maybe your GM and wizard player are willing to indulge you, but what makes you think the OP's are?
Wait... so you start your post by making an assumed generalization based on anecdotal evidence and then condemn STR Ranger for doing the same thing?
I agree with STR Ranger's generalization, though. I have not heard of a DM who would not allow Duelist Gloves to work for Weapon Training (or barring that, special ones to be made that do).
I think STR Ranger's advice was helpful here.
I'd go with ranger if you want to stay close to your background. The ranger lets you be a dwarf that lives in a hilly forest who's used to taking care of himself AND who offers you the means to your desired end: being able to use axes as melee and ranged weapons. You take the TWF route so you don't need to pump dex up to incredibly high levels and take hand axes.
STR 16 / DEX 14 / CON 14 / INT 10 / WIS 14 / CHA 10 with your 25 points, then add racial modifiers, your bonus point from 4 and items. You can lower charisma for some extra points if you want. First off, this gives you great saves (dwarves get +2wis/con and vs spells/poison) in combination with the ranger base saves. Secondly, you can hit with ranged attacks while your main strength remains in combat. The range of hand-axes mean that you'll be in combat sooner than later so that's good.
The ranger will give you the TWF feats without you having to crank up your dex. TWF with quick-draw lets you throw your axes as you take a 5f step towards the enemy. Then after the enemy acted you're either in combat or a 5f SHOULD be enough to be in combat. That's when you start hitting them with your axes. The blinkback belt lets you use your axes this way, though this does mean you'll need to get old school gauntlets of ogre strength.
The probem lies in feat selection: you either go for ranged or for melee. I'd advise you to go for melee feats (power-attack, double slice if you're going to pump up strength) and take quick draw regardless of preference. This already takes up all your feats at 6. Alternatively you can take power attack AND deadly aim and continue with melee feats at 7 and beyond.
So what does this build do better than an ordinary TWF ranger? Well, it lets you use a full attack when the enemy isn't within 5f range. It gives you the ability to stay at a distance (when wounded, not able to take the heat, etc) and still pump out damage. It lets you attack from behind an ally when fighting in 5f corridors. You trade a little bit of pure melee power for versatility and we all know that having versatility is far from a bad thing. Having ranger spells opens up a whole can of buffs that you can use: lead blades being the main contender at your level. Level 1 ranger spell that increases your dmg die by 1 step for 1 min/lvl. Get some charges on a wand or a few scrolls at a higher caster level so it lasts longer. Or, a pearl of power 1 so you can it one more time a day at your CL.
Favored Enemy, Favored Terrain and other ranger abilities combined with their great saves, tons of skill points and solid hit dice means you'll always be useful. I hope that helped :)
.., ability to retrieve items as a swift actions,..
.. and can pull out weapons faster prior to Quick Draw. Later, you can pick up the Grasping Tail feat, and grab unattended items within 5 feet as a swift action, allowing you to retrieve your Axes faster.
You only have one swift action so quick draw is better for a twf hurler.
I have a 13th level 2-weapon dagger Fighter (vanilla). It takes a lot of feats to get there, but wow! Dangerous! Doesn't miss with primary attacks. Pin Down is a great feat once you hit 12th level. You aren't missing with your Opportunity attacks. The static damage adds up.
Very effective.
While I have been able to utilize the thrown aspect it isn't the forefront. With full plate and armor training my AC is pretty good also. If you are team player you will have to maneuver around to put yourself between the bad guys and yourself. The ranged damage is icing. Specializing on light weapons also has the advantage that grappled or swallowed you still have access to your weapon of choice.
Another thing going for ranger is you could run with human
18 Str
Dex 13 (Put 12 level point here)
Con 13
Int 7
Wis 14
Cha13 (put 4,8 level point here)
This gets you
5 skills per level
Let'syou pursue TWF
AND go for Eldritch Heritage (orc bloodline)
Which is awesome
(You need Optimistic Gambler trait to Make touch of rage last 1+1d4 rounds)
The morale bonus works for melee and range.
Free Str Boosts
Free Giant form.