Scion of Humanity and Favored Class Bonuses


Rules Questions


1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.

Does this let you take the human favored class bonus? (Bold Mine)

•Scion of Humanity Some aasimars' heavenly ancestry is extremely distant. An aasimar with this racial trait counts as an outsider (native) and a humanoid (human) for any effect related to race, including feat prerequisites and spells that affect humanoids. She can pass for human without using the Disguise skill. This racial trait replaces the Celestial language and alters the native subtype.

It says any effect related to race, archetypes and racial feats have already been included with the racial heritage feat which is the same wording.

Racial Heritage
The blood of a non-human ancestor flows in your veins.

Prerequisite: Human.

Benefit: Choose another humanoid race. You count as both human and that race for any effects related to race. For example, if you choose dwarf, you are considered both a human and a dwarf for the purpose of taking traits, feats, how spells and magic items affect you, and so on


I would be inclined to rule against it but RAW I am not sure. It would however make the character eligible for the feat, Fast Learner, +1 to HP and +1 to skill points. Hope I got the name correct.


RAW, it uses the same language. Feats and such are not a question, but the favored class bonus is. I think you should get to choose between them, but I need to know if that is the idea others get from RAW for a PFS game.

Dark Archive

I would never let an aasimar get off as human, any kind of human either. In public they would require heavy disguises or magic to hide the features, no matter how distant.


check out the alt racial. You lose the celestial benefits and are treated as a humanoid.

Also, does anyone know where the Small tiefling/aasimar options are? I saw them somewhere, but can't find it now.


the favoured class bonus is a racial trait that is tied to the race specifically as opposed to the race traits that can be chosen with the trait optional rule.

In other words, you cant have that quality, but you could have fast learner, as posted above. You would also be able to take any other human only feat.

A curious combination would be to take the scion of humanity trait on your aasimar and then take racial heritage orc or something.... talk about Heinz 57.


Favored Class Bonuses are not an effect, so no.

Yea, it's weird.


Are the small aasimar and tiefling in the "Blood of" books?


TGMaxMaxer wrote:

Are the small aasimar and tiefling in the "Blood of" books?

Blood of Angels, page 4:

Quote:


Non-human aasimars have the same statistics as human aasimars with the exception of size. Thus a halfling aasimar is Small but otherwise possesses the same statistics and abilities as a human aasimar—the difference is purely cosmetic. Non-human aasimars do not possess any of the racial abilities of their base race. However, they are usually raised in the same cultural context as other members of their base race, and thus generally adopt the same fighting style as their peers, use the same types of weapons and armor, and study the same skills.


So... you can have a small aasimar that doesn't get a penalty to str?


TGMaxMaxer wrote:

So... you can have a small aasimar that doesn't get a penalty to str?

Based on that text... yes. You can even end up with a +2 to strength from an alternate racial ability.

Grand Lodge

Well, a Scion of Humanity Aasimar can take human feats, human archetypes, and human race traits.

So, if they count as human for everything else, why, or why wouldn't they count as human for favored class bonuses?


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FAQ wrote:

Half-Elf or Half-Orc: Can a character of either of these races select human racial favored class options?

Yes. Half-elves and half-orcs may select racial favored class options, archetypes, traits, and so on, as if they were a full member of both races (a half-elf can select elf and human rules elements, a half-orc can select human and orc rules elements).

Edit 9/26/13: This is a reversal of an earlier ruling. This resolves a discrepancy between this FAQ, another APG FAQ, and a Core Rulebook FAQ.

—Pathfinder Design Team, 09/26/13

So, by the new ruling, I would assume the same would be said for an Aasimar with Scion of Humanity. They are BOTH races, same as a half-elf or half-orc.


So you could be an Aasimar Sorcerer taking the human favored class bonus, then the human feat Racial Heritage: Half Elf, and then cast Paragon Surge picking up the feat Expanded Arcana. Nice.


Cubic Prism wrote:
So you could be an Aasimar Sorcerer taking the human favored class bonus, then the human feat Racial Heritage: Half Elf, and then cast Paragon Surge picking up the feat Expanded Arcana. Nice.

Yep, although you would take Racial Heritage: Elf heh. Kind of redundant to take Half-Elf or Half-Orc as racial heritages lol.

Shadow Lodge

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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens Subscriber
AbsolutGrndZer0 wrote:
Cubic Prism wrote:
So you could be an Aasimar Sorcerer taking the human favored class bonus, then the human feat Racial Heritage: Half Elf, and then cast Paragon Surge picking up the feat Expanded Arcana. Nice.

Yep, although you would take Racial Heritage: Elf heh. Kind of redundant to take Half-Elf or Half-Orc as racial heritages lol.

Paragon Surge is half-elf only, so you would indeed select Half-Elf as your Racial Heritage feat.


AbsolutGrndZer0 wrote:


Yep, although you would take Racial Heritage: Elf heh. Kind of redundant to take Half-Elf or Half-Orc as racial heritages lol.

Paragon Surge is Half-Elf only, so that probably wouldn't work (which is hilarious considering the description of the spell).


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Except you can't take Half-Elf as a racial heritage technically, plus you have human ancestry, you have elf ancestry, I would honestly rule that you meet the prerequisites of the spell.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

aasimar is not a half-blood race, however. Aasimar are aasimar. half-elves and half-orcs are hybrid races.

I'd rule, no.

==Aelryinth


AbsolutGrndZer0 wrote:
Except you can't take Half-Elf as a racial heritage technically, plus you have human ancestry, you have elf ancestry, I would honestly rule that you meet the prerequisites of the spell.

How are Half-Elves ineligible as options for Racial heritage? They are another humanoid species...

And we can make it weirder than that, be a Scion of Humanity Aasimar with racial heritage and eldritch heritage. You can be half angel, half human, half orc and then throw an infernal bloodline in the mix. Explain that background to the GM. Man-Bear-Pig doesnt have anything on us :)

Dark Archive

Half-elves are human, elf, half-elf and can count as drow and another humanoid race through feats.


Make sure that any character derived from anything mentioned in this thread is named "John Everyman" everyone got that?


I think if a Human or Aasimar took Racial Heritage and chose Half-Elf they would qualify for any feat/trait/spell/favored class option that required them to be Half-Elf but they would not have the half elven racial trait "Elf Blood" that allows them to count as elves/humans.


Jayder22 wrote:
I think if a Human or Aasimar took Racial Heritage and chose Half-Elf they would qualify for any feat/trait/spell/favored class option that required them to be Half-Elf but they would not have the half elven racial trait "Elf Blood" that allows them to count as elves/humans.

Racial Heritage doesnt use the term elf blood but does say they count as half elf for all effects related to race... if being a half-elf means you count as an elf... but that is a racial trait and not witin the currently understood scope of the feat... Oww, my head!


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Torbyne wrote:
Racial Heritage doesnt use the term elf blood but does say they count as half elf for all effects related to race... if being a half-elf means you count as an elf... but that is a racial trait and not witin the currently understood scope of the feat... Oww, my head!

It seems counter intuitive, but from what I can see, "being a half-elf means you count as an elf" is an untrue statement. Just being a half-elf doesn't cause this, it is a specific racial trait that grants you this boon/curse. If you qualify as a half-elf and for some reason don't have that trait, you wouldn't get those benefits.


Elf Blood doesn't exist. It's a shorthand for Humanoid(Elf, Human). Same with Prerequisite: Half-Elf. It's a shorthand for Prerequisite: Humanoid with Human and Elf subtypes. If you have Humanoid(Human) by any means (Scion of Humanity, core Human, custom-made race with Humanoid(Human), etc.) and you took Racial Heritage(Elf), then you are considered Humanoid(Human, Elf); same as a Half-Elf. Furthermore, if you are from Human stock and have an Elf ancestor, then you have a Half-Elf ancestor exactly one generation closer to you. Now, if by some means you were able to take Racial Heritage while bypassing the prerequisites, that would be a different story. But all racial prerequisites for rules elements concerning Humanoid races are governed by the Type(Subtype) rules.

Grand Lodge

Kazaan wrote:
Elf Blood doesn't exist.

The core rulebook and Paizo stat blocks disagree. I'm looking at a published stat block for a half-elf. It's a humanoid (elf, human) and has the SQ elf blood.

A half-elf has both the elf and human subtypes as a separate quality of the monster race "half-elf", besides having the Elf Blood racial trait. In theory a half-elf could swap out Elf Blood, if someone were to publish a half-elf alternate racial trait that did so, and would still have both subtypes but count as neither elf nor human for certain game effects (it seems pointlessly hypothetical to speculate what those would be and no doubt the debate would be lengthy). Other game elements that allow a character to count as an elf, specifically Racial Heritage, don't give the character the elf subtype.


Starglim wrote:
Kazaan wrote:
Elf Blood doesn't exist.

The core rulebook and Paizo stat blocks disagree. I'm looking at a published stat block for a half-elf. It's a humanoid (elf, human) and has the SQ elf blood.

A half-elf has both the elf and human subtypes as a separate trait of all half-elves, besides having the Elf Blood racial trait. In theory a half-elf could swap out Elf Blood, if someone were to publish a half-elf alternate racial trait that did so, and would still have both subtypes but count as neither elf nor human for certain game effects (it seems pointlessly hypothetical to speculate what those would be and no doubt the debate would be lengthy). Other game elements that allow a character to count as an elf, specifically Racial Heritage, don't give the character the elf subtype.

But if the elf sub type is an effect of being a half elf than racial heritage doesn't grant you that but you do "count as" having the elf sub type. In another thread we have been talking about the feat racial heritage giving you an invisible sub type because of that wording.

Grand Lodge

Torbyne wrote:
But if the elf sub type is an effect of being a half elf than racial heritage doesn't grant you that but you do "count as" having the elf sub type. In another thread we have been talking about the feat racial heritage giving you an invisible sub type because of that wording.

Racial Heritage doesn't say you count as having any subtype, it says you count as that race. A character could, for example, have Racial Heritage (drow). He would count as both a human and a drow and could take feats with Prerequisite: Drow. He would not have the elf subtype and would not meet Prerequisite: Elf.


Starglim wrote:
Torbyne wrote:
But if the elf sub type is an effect of being a half elf than racial heritage doesn't grant you that but you do "count as" having the elf sub type. In another thread we have been talking about the feat racial heritage giving you an invisible sub type because of that wording.
Racial Heritage doesn't say you count as having any subtype, it says you count as a member of that race. A character could, for example, have Racial Heritage (drow). He would count as both a human and a drow and could take feats with Prerequisite: Drow. He would not have the elf subtype and would not meet Prerequisite: Elf.

But there was another ruling about racial heritage making you subject to favored enemy which only looks at types and subtype. So it has to make you count as a new subtype of humanoid for that to work.

Grand Lodge

Torbyne wrote:
Starglim wrote:
Torbyne wrote:
But if the elf sub type is an effect of being a half elf than racial heritage doesn't grant you that but you do "count as" having the elf sub type. In another thread we have been talking about the feat racial heritage giving you an invisible sub type because of that wording.
Racial Heritage doesn't say you count as having any subtype, it says you count as a member of that race. A character could, for example, have Racial Heritage (drow). He would count as both a human and a drow and could take feats with Prerequisite: Drow. He would not have the elf subtype and would not meet Prerequisite: Elf.
But there was another ruling about racial heritage making you subject to favored enemy which only looks at types and subtype. So it has to make you count as a new subtype of humanoid for that to work.

I'm comfortable saying that favored enemy interacts with Racial Heritage, as the FAQ specifically says it does, by looking at the subtypes the character would have if he was of the race that he counts as being. It doesn't have to extend further.


Starglim wrote:
Torbyne wrote:
Starglim wrote:
Torbyne wrote:
But if the elf sub type is an effect of being a half elf than racial heritage doesn't grant you that but you do "count as" having the elf sub type. In another thread we have been talking about the feat racial heritage giving you an invisible sub type because of that wording.
Racial Heritage doesn't say you count as having any subtype, it says you count as a member of that race. A character could, for example, have Racial Heritage (drow). He would count as both a human and a drow and could take feats with Prerequisite: Drow. He would not have the elf subtype and would not meet Prerequisite: Elf.
But there was another ruling about racial heritage making you subject to favored enemy which only looks at types and subtype. So it has to make you count as a new subtype of humanoid for that to work.
I'm comfortable saying that favored enemy interacts with Racial Heritage, as the FAQ specifically says it does, by looking at the subtypes the character would have if he was of the race that he counts as being. It doesn't have to extend further.

It has to for the rule to be consistent, if you count as having the sub type for favored enemy than you count as having the sub type for all purposes, hence the invisible sub type.


Tell me, Starglim, if I wanted to use the Race Builder to make a race that had the Elf Blood racial trait, which list is it on? When you look at the Sample Races which break down how each of the Core races would be re-created using the Race Builder, is Elf-Blood listed under Half-Elves?

You may be comfortable with saying that favored enemy interacts with Racial Heritage just because the FAQ says so, but for the rest of us, we need something a little more intellectual and self-consistent. Those qualities are provided by broadening one's mind and avoiding taking too narrow of a view; realizing that sometimes, they write things for the layman when they don't feel people would understand more technical statements. It doesn't need to be spelled out explicitly for us to understand how and why it works; we can (and are expected to, where necessary) read between the lines.

Grand Lodge

Kazaan wrote:
Tell me, Starglim, if I wanted to use the Race Builder to make a race that had the Elf Blood racial trait, which list is it on? When you look at the Sample Races which break down how each of the Core races would be re-created using the Race Builder, is Elf-Blood listed under Half-Elves?

I haven't used the published version of the Race Builder. However, when I look at the sample build for half-elves, indeed it doesn't have Elf Blood. Nor can I see anything there that acts as Elf Blood. The sample is therefore imperfect: the Race Builder hasn't replicated the CRB half-elf exactly, nor must it, since the core half-elf wasn't designed and doesn't run using this optional system.

Kazaan wrote:
You may be comfortable with saying that favored enemy interacts with Racial Heritage just because the FAQ says so, but for the rest of us, we need something a little more intellectual and self-consistent.

I think that's achievable. I need not to be addressed in the tone of this paragraph, so I'll leave it there.


Starglim wrote:
I haven't used the published version of the Race Builder. However, when I look at the sample build for half-elves, indeed it doesn't have Elf Blood. Nor can I see anything there that acts as Elf Blood. The sample is therefore imperfect: the Race Builder hasn't replicated the CRB half-elf exactly, nor must it, since the core half-elf wasn't designed and doesn't run using this optional system.

Try here. A system that lacks consistency is no system. And, as we all know, this is the Pathfinder Roleplaying System. Ergo, it requires internal consistency; otherwise it's useless.

Starglim wrote:

I think that's achievable. I need not to be addressed in the tone of this paragraph, so I'll leave it there.

Your surrender to logic and reason is accepted and appreciated.

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