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Lets say, the character has a long sword, 30’ of movement and no special feats to do the trick, except that he can make the acrobatics (jump) check.
Situation - A harpy is flying 10’ away and 15’ high and the character charges and jumps to melee attack the harpy – What happens.
1) Is that even legal and if so…
2) Does the character hang in the air if she does not have enough movement to land?
3) Does the character continue moving until she reaches the ground even if she does not have enough movement left – (that would be spring attack without the three required feats.)
a. Does the character land directly below the creature like a player dunking a basket ball?
b. Does the momentum carry the character a distance away from the creature?
4) Does the character provoke an AoO
Is there a rule that clarifies what happens?
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It's a complex situation, and to the best of my knowledge, nothing in the rules specifically handles it. What I've done in the past for this (Because it does come up) is :
A) Treat it as a charge.
B) The character must make a running Jump check with a DC for 5ft off the ground (harpy is 10 ft, has 5ft reach, needs 5ft of height).
C) If the PC doesn't have sufficient movement to land, they provoke an attack of opportunity when they fall if they leave threatened space (which they will). Then they are also prone.
D) They can't do this if they can't charge (IE: Difficult terrain).
Because I'm using Charge, they don't provoke an attack from the target (unless they fall from lack of movement at the end and go prone) on the attack (but they would from any bystanders, per normal charging rules).
I would allow them to jump up and attack a creature flying low with some caveats.
Because the character in some ways would be doing a Spring Attack like effect (moving, attack, then moving again) I would make the character suffer appropriate falling damage after they make their attack as their move would be ended when they attack and since they are not on a solid surface they would fall to the ground.
Additionally I would allow the creature to make an attack of opportunity as the character leaves a threatened square when they fall away.
If the character has the Spring Attack feat I would just let them make the attack without falling damage (as they can move after the attack) or an attack of opportunity (part of Spring Attack).
Going strictly by RAW I would say they could not do it because the moment they stop moving by trying to make an attack they would start falling as that happens immediately when you are not standing on solid ground. By ending their move to attack they would be ending their jump not on solid ground which triggers falling.
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If the character can make the jump check, sure (and that's how I roll it). The hardest part, of course is the Acrobatics check. If the harpy is 15 feet above the ground, and a Medium/Small with 5 foot high wants to hit, it'd be a 5 ft. difference give or take, so a DC 20 Acrobatics check to make a single attack. And of course double that if the player doesn't have the 10 ft for a running start (higher leve monks not included).
2 & 3: That's up to the DM to decide, although if the player just jumped straight up (no running start), he/she would obviously land where he was. A running jump wound assume further movement, at least 5 ft. behind the foe he/she tried to jump at. Depending on the height jumped I'd also force an Acrobatics check to land safely.
4. The tricky part. In my games, I rule no AoO jumping to hit to this since this a full round action (basically the equivalent of a charge) but losing the momentum boost for the sake of pushing high enough to strike the target. That'll be a per DM decision (unless I missed some blatantly obvious rule on this).
Design Manager
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Also remember that the Acrobatics DC to High Jump is +4 per each foot that the character is trying to get off the ground, and double that if the character does not have a 10 running start. That means your character has a minimum DC of 20 (40 without a running start) to jump into an adjacent square he can attack a creature flying 10 feet off the ground from. In your scenario, he needs to jump 10 feet (or 2 squares) to enter a square adjacent to the harpy that he can legally attack from with his longsword. That means he has a minimum DC of 40 (since it was ten feet away he can count as having a running start). You could allow him to attack at the top of his arc as a standard action. He would then need to make a DC 15 Acrobatics check to avoid the fall damage from his 10 foot drop or take 1d10 of fall damage and end up prone.
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People can do this in real life. Level 1 commoners with no combat training. Why is this even a question?
Now, the tricky part here is paizo never re-printed the 3E vertical reach rules for creatures. d20pfsrd was kind enough to put these in the jump skill description, at least.
A typical human has an 8 ft vertical reach. If he has a reach weapon...add 5 to that. Easy peasy. Large creature has a 16 ft vertical reach. +10 if using a reach weapon. Still easy.
A high Jump has a DC equal to 4 times the height needed. And DCs double if you do not move 20 ft first. We'll assume the PC does move 20 ft first.
An enemy is 10 ft above the ground. Medium PC w/o a reach weapon needs a DC 8 jump check ([10-8]*4) to attack the foe. Foe decides to o up to 20 ft above ground. PC pulls out a reach weapon and now threatens 13 ft vertically. He now needs a DC 28 ([20-13]*4) jump check to be able to make an attack against the foe.
No falling damage. No need for spring attack. Just move up, jump, and strike. Basketball players seem to manage dunking just fine, and they're not exactly the brightest bunch. :p
As for if it should provoke an AoO... if on the way up, foe has superior reach, sure. Same as approaching the foe on the ground. But no AoO from the falling afterwards.
1. Flight is freaking awesome. Seriously guys, it doesn't need the help.
2. Generally, the rules for forced movement (which is what I'd classify gravity as) have it not provoke AoOs. In fact, there is some precedent for this specific situation in the Fly skill:
"Attacked While Flying
You are not considered flat-footed while flying. If you are flying using wings and you take damage while flying, you must make a DC 10 Fly check to avoid losing 10 feet of altitude. This descent does not provoke an attack of opportunity and does not count against a creature’s movement."
If losing altitude from flight while taking damage does not count against the creature's movement or provoke an AoO, why would landing from a jump do so for a jumping attacker?
I agree with SotS. Just have them jump and attack. The jumping would probably would provoke from people around him but certainly not the flying creature in question.
Just to clarify for people who may be wondering how it works.
Flying 10 feet off the ground means your in the square that is the third one up. That is, if you were looking at the field as a bunch of cubes, then the jumper is in the 1st cube on the ground, there's 5 ft of space above him, and the harpy is in the 3rd cube off the ground (10 ft off the ground).
A medium creature can attack in 3 dimensions, not just two. It's just that two is the usual dimension people deal with on maps. So, 5 feet left, 5 feet right, 5 feet ahead, 5 feet behind, 5 feet ahead and right, 5 feet ahead and left, 5 feet behind and right, 5 feet behind and left. That's 8 directions just for the 2-dimensional map. But you can also attack straight up (5 feet above), and 5 feet above and left, 5 feet above and right, 5 feet above and ahead, 5 feet above and behind, 5 feet above ahead right, 5 feet above ahead left, 5 feet above behind left, and 5 feet above behind right.
So to attack the harpy, you only have to run under it, and jump up 5 feet so that your sword is being thrust straight up through it's.. er.. unmentionable regions. :)
Edit : Edited to make me look like less of a dufus for not reading the original post I replied to clearly enough. :)
A human's natural vertical reach is greater than 5 ft, because it's ~3/4 of his body height + the extra distance his arms extend up from there. 3E listed it as 8 ft, which is close enough to realistic to satisfy me.
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O.K. This is getting too complicated - what I'm looking for is if the character does not have enough move left after a jumping charge what happens.
1) Does she hang in the air until next round.
2) Does she fall continuing her move even though she does not have the movement left.
Their are some problems with both.
Such as With #1 If character hangs in air after attacking and the Harpy does not fly away, the character would get a 2nd attack on the way down as part of his standard and be able to make a 2nd acrobatics check that would allow the character to land with out being prone.
And with #2 the character would have more movement (falling), but since she used her acrobatics check to jump, would she get another to land, to avoid falling prone and taking damage (I think anyone who can jump 15' off the ground, like a ninja, can likley land safely... maybe). Also, by continuing her move she would provoke an AoO.
I think you should be able to do this just what happens to the character - Hang in mid air or gain extra movement and fall to the ground?
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Design Manager
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O.K. This is getting too complicated - what I'm looking for is if the character does not have enough move left after a jumping charge what happens.
1) Does she hang in the air until next round.
2) Does she fall continuing her move even though she does not have the movement left.
Their are some problems with both.
Such as With #1 If character hangs in air after attacking and the Harpy does not fly away, the character would get a 2nd attack on the way down as part of his standard and be able to make a 2nd acrobatics check that would allow the character to land with out being prone.
And with #2 the character would have more movement (falling), but since she used her acrobatics check to jump, would she get another to land, to avoid falling prone and taking damage (I think anyone who can jump 15' off the ground, like a ninja, can likley land safely... maybe). Also, by continuing her move she would provoke an AoO.
I think you should be able to do this just what happens to the character - Hang in mid air or gain extra movement and fall to the ground?
She falls. It's not extra movement, it's falling. Straight down, has to make a DC 15 acrobatics check to avoid taking damage and falling prone. Your movement speed in no way impacts the effects of gravity unless you have flying.
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Dunking is something that takes enough practice to represent a feat or two. Particularly for anyone less than 6'6".
If this were NBA Jams: The Role-playing Game, I'd agree, however there's already way too many needless feats to do circumstantial things characters should probably be able to do on a case by case basis in a heroic fantasy RPG. Add to this that there is a viable skill pertaining to the action, there just needs to be a ruling on how the action is done, no additional cumbersome mechanics or feats required.
Additionally by rule once the person moves then attacks (Unless using a feat) their movement ends, so yes they just fall to the ground (Which is not movement). Normal falling rules apply.
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Additionally by rule once the person moves then attacks (Unless using a feat) their movement ends, so yes they just fall to the ground (Which is not movement). Normal falling rules apply.
Malach the Merciless, the character made an acrobatics check to jump, do they get a second acrobatics check in the same round to avoid the falling damage?
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Design Manager
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Additionally by rule once the person moves then attacks (Unless using a feat) their movement ends, so yes they just fall to the ground (Which is not movement). Normal falling rules apply.Malach the Merciless, the character made an acrobatics check to jump, do they get a second acrobatics check in the same round to avoid the falling damage?
Yes. The first Acrobatics check is made as part of their move action, the second is made as a reaction to an outside stimulus (the same way you automatically get a perception check to obvious things like the sound of battle, or being a dwarf and walking by a stone door hidden in a tunnel wall).
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I wouldn't require an extra acrobatics check. The acrobatics rules already have a statement regarding a failed vertical jump and falling prone.
"If you fail by 5 or more, you fail to make the jump and fall (or land prone, in the case of a vertical jump)."
They either made the jump (hit the DC or better). They get to attack, they do not fall prone. Or they failed the jump, but just barely (failed by 4 or less). They do not get to attack, but they do not fall prone. Or flat out failed (failed by 5 or more). They do not get to attack and they fall prone.
If they take damage from an AoO just prior, or mid jump, you could go for a new acrobatics roll if you wanted, DC based upon how much damage they took.
1) Does she hang in the air until next round.2) Does she fall continuing her move even though she does not have the movement left.
Their are some problems with both.
Such as With #1 If character hangs in air after attacking and the Harpy does not fly away, the character would get a 2nd attack on the way down as part of his standard and be able to make a 2nd acrobatics check that would allow the character to land with out being prone.
And with #2 the character would have more movement (falling), but since she used her acrobatics check to jump, would she get another to land, to avoid falling prone and taking damage (I think anyone who can jump 15' off the ground, like a ninja, can likley land safely... maybe). Also, by continuing her move she would provoke an AoO.
I think you should be able to do this just what happens to the character - Hang in mid air or gain extra movement and fall to the ground?
1 The character definitely does NOT hang in the air. An acrobatics check for a jump involves the jump and 'landing'. And the rules specifically state that you cannot jump a distance more than your total movement. So the character would have to have enough movement to run, jump and land, otherwise they cannot make the attempt. Which means you will land during your turn just as if u jumped a pit. Swinging a sword (or whatever) at an enemy in mid-air doesn't change this fact.
2. Also Since attacking during your move action is a no-no unless you have spring attack. The attack would have to be part of a charge action imposing all the appropriate bonuses and penalties.
3. You would immediately provoke an AoO when you leave the creatures threatened square as you land.
3a. It could be ruled that since you are in the air during the AoO you would take a -4 to your dex or be flatfooted as you can't properly defend yourself while "falling". But I'm not 100% sure on this.
Yes. The first Acrobatics check is made as part of their move action, the second is made as a reaction to an outside stimulus (the same way you automatically get a perception check to obvious things like the sound of battle, or being a dwarf and walking by a stone door hidden in a tunnel wall).Additionally by rule once the person moves then attacks (Unless using a feat) their movement ends, so yes they just fall to the ground (Which is not movement). Normal falling rules apply.Malach the Merciless, the character made an acrobatics check to jump, do they get a second acrobatics check in the same round to avoid the falling damage?
Ah yes Ssalarn is right. Since the atk happens at the end of a charge you immediately FALL, not LAND. Also meaning you could make the attempt without having the movement to Land as I stated the opposite above.
Which means the enemy gets to make an AoO and you are flatfooted during it. You would also get an acrobatics check as Malach mentions to not fall prone.
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Design Manager
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Ssalarn,
OK, I just was not sure if you got two skill checks in one round if you have used your move and standard actions. If a skill check was a free action the answer would be no right? You only get one free action per round... Right?
It is actually swift (and immediate) actions that are limited to once per round. Free actions are only limited by what the GM feels is reasonable.
We worked it as follows for a monk in my campaign.
1. Acrobatics Jump (Move Action)
2. Attack (Standard Action)
3. Fall (Free Action). Can't attack and keep moving as that is Spring Attack. This action also provokes as you leave a threatened square.
4. Acrobatics to get a conrtolled fall (Reaction)
It worked pretty well, my player thought it was cool. He then did a jump grapple. Good times. He later picked up spring attack, so now he just jump kicks flying things.
(With Spring Attack)
Full round action: Acrobatics Check for the Jump, Attack, Movement continues to landing.
Yes. The first Acrobatics check is made as part of their move action, the second is made as a reaction to an outside stimulus (the same way you automatically get a perception check to obvious things like the sound of battle, or being a dwarf and walking by a stone door hidden in a tunnel wall).Additionally by rule once the person moves then attacks (Unless using a feat) their movement ends, so yes they just fall to the ground (Which is not movement). Normal falling rules apply.Malach the Merciless, the character made an acrobatics check to jump, do they get a second acrobatics check in the same round to avoid the falling damage?
Agree, reaction to falling just as say you are in combat and you can get a reactive perception roll to notice something.
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I don't allow the jump into a mid-air melee attack. I find it outside the scope of the rules.
This was specifically excluded in 3.5, where the text was, "If you run out of movement mid-jump, your next action (either on this turn or, if necessary, on your next turn) must be a move action to complete the jump." People still wanted to jump and attack.
There are a couple of rules that relate to this and suggest that a mid-air attack should not be allowed.
1. It is a move-attack-move sequence.
2. The text that replaces the 3.5 language is: "No jump can allow you to exceed your maximum movement for the round." This isn't as clear as in 3.5, but points in the same direction. It isn't a particularly strong point. It is provided more to acknowledge that there is a change in text between the two.
3. From movement rules in the Combat chapter: "Accidentally Ending Movement in an Illegal Space: Sometimes a character ends its movement while moving through a space where it's not allowed to stop. When that happens, put your miniature in the last legal position you occupied, or the closest legal position, if there's a legal position that's closer."
A character that ends movement in mid-air has ended its movement in a space it cannot stop in, triggering the text in 3. This happens before the attack.
I have no problem with jump-attack for a character with Spring Attack.
I don't see any difference between Move/Attack and Jump-Move/Attack.
As long as you can jump high enough to reach the creature and have enough movement to reach it, that is fine, without spring attack you cannot continue the movement which is the key.
Like a move attack the jump attack (whether from below or above), the attacker moves to the space adjacent the target and the movement stops. There is then an attack. The attacker is now X feet in the air and now falls per falling rules. Again this is 6 second of time, and combat abstraction it is more than possible to do this. The Attacker should also be ruled flat footed during that move, receive a AoO if the attacker leaves the threatened area (Even by falling), and I wouldn't even have an issue with a circumstance penalty determined by the GM toward that type of attack.
You can even try to now. Grab a broomstick, run 10', jump and swipe the broom stick at the ceiling.
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People actually forbid a character to jump and attack in midair? Wtf...?
I can do it. YOU can do it. Any freaking commoner can do it! It's just "jump and attack"!
Let the fighter have some fun! If he has enough Strength to propel himself into the air and reach the opponent, let him do it!
By Odin's beard! It stuns me that people actually strive to limit the game in such ways. It's not like it's gonna make the sword and board fighter broken, or even great, against flying opponents... -.-'
I'm with StreamOfTheSky in this one, and support every word he wrote in this thread so far.
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People actually forbid a character to jump and attack in midair? Wtf...?
I can do it. YOU can do it. Any freaking commoner can do it! It's just "jump and attack"!
Let the fighter have some fun! If he has enough Strength to propel himself into the air and reach the opponent, let him do it!
By Odin's beard! It stuns me that people actually strive to limit the game in such ways. It's not like it's gonna make the sword and board fighter broken, or even great, against flying opponents... -.-'
I'm with StreamOfTheSky in this one, and support every word he wrote in this thread so far.
I would allow it, but I would use the rules to adjudicate it. What I would not allow is to have acrobatics act like Spring Attack which is exactly what you are doing if you just allow someone to jump up, attack, and then land all with no downside. If you allow someone to do that what about jumping over someone and attacking them as they pass over and then landing away from them? It is using the same set of rules that you are applying to jumping up to attack.
Going strictly by RAW it's not possible, but sometimes the GM needs to step in and rule sensibly, but at the same time you need to be aware of any precedent you are setting with your ruling. Spring Attack already has enough stacked against it that it doesn't need acrobatics stealing its thunder. Consistency is very important as a GM especially when it comes to applying the rules. If the character has Spring Attack then I would rule it as you are.
It really shouldn't be this hard guys.
Move Action: Jump. If someone is adjacent, then it would probably provoke since it's movement.
Standard Action: Attack
Land. No falling damage unless you failed your Jump check. Why would anyone apply falling damage when you succeed it? Makes no sense.
There. Finished. Simple as that. I have run this as is and it works well. It's not often players fight flying creatures and to be honest, depending on how far away the flying creature are, it may be better to use a bow.
It really shouldn't be this hard guys.
Move Action: Jump. If someone is adjacent, then it would probably provoke since it's movement.
Standard Action: Attack
Land. No falling damage unless you failed your Jump check. Why would anyone apply falling damage when you succeed it? Makes no sense.
There. Finished. Simple as that. I have run this as is and it works well. It's not often players fight flying creatures and to be honest, depending on how far away the flying creature are, it may be better to use a bow.
Because you didn't end your movement (the jump) in a legal square. What you are describing is move, attack, move which is what Spring Attack is for. Since you likely aren't jumping very high you can probably just make a DC 15 acrobatics check to negate the falling damage, but rules wise you should fall as you didn't land on the ground at the end of your move action.
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@Lemmy
I think you're also vastly overestimating the jumping power of... Well, everyone. You know anyone who can jump 10 feet vertically? Which is what the person in this scenario is trying to do by the way. If the GM feels like he wants to waive the DC 40 Acrobatics check to attain that height because it's cinematic, that's all well and good, but there needs to be balance to the action, such as the possibility of fall damage just like any normal 10 foot drop or the possibility of provoking an AoO for leaving a threatened square.
This is actually fairly was to do. The attacker declairs what square he is jumping to. If he makes the dc for the jump check, he then does his standard attack. At which point he does an uncontrolled fall.
To jump attack and land properly ( ie move attack move) woukd require spring attack.
So the attacker has to jump, end their move, do the standard action then fall.
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Design Manager
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@Lemmy
I think you're also vastly overestimating the jumping power of... Well, everyone. You know anyone who can jump 10 feet vertically? Which is what the person in this scenario is trying to do by the way. If the GM feels like he wants to waive the DC 40 Acrobatics check to attain that height because it's cinematic, that's all well and good, but there needs to be balance to the action, such as the possibility of fall damage just like any normal 10 foot drop or the possibility of provoking an AoO for leaving a threatened square.
You are really playing that card in this game?
All the other physics that's broken, and this is where you make your stand for realism?
No, we're in the rules forum so I'm pointing out what the rules say happens.
@Lemmy
I think you're also vastly overestimating the jumping power of... Well, everyone. You know anyone who can jump 10 feet vertically?
Nope. But I also don't know anyone with a Strength score of 18~20. Or anyone above... I dunno... 3rd level? Maybe there is one or 2 guys I know about who are 5th level (Stephen Hawking is probably a 5th level expert with high Intelligence score and Skill Focus).
I also don't know guys who can go invisible through the power of meditation. Or shoot fireballs because they are really smart. Or grow fangs and wings because they're really angry.
Jumping 10ft in the air should be pretty easy for someone who fights werewolves, trolls, zombies and dragons on a daily basis.
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OK here is how I see the rule...
Melee attacking flying creature:
Make acrobatics check as part of move action, success means you can reach the flying creature to attack it and failure means you cannot reach the flying creature.
If deemed you can reach the flying creature you may attack and land within the movement allowed (single movement if you do not have spring attack and if you can add long jumping distance to your overall high/long jump you may land beyond the flying creature).
If the distance required to land it greater than your allowed movement you immediately fall to the ground below the creature, which would require you to make a (free action) acrobatics check or fall prone and take appropriate damage.
In either case (unless you have spring attack), because you continue to move you would provoke an AoO. If you begin falling after attacking the flying creature the creature you would be flatfooted during the creatures attack.
If you charge the charge attack applies normally +2 to attack -2 to AC.
@Lemmy
I think you're also vastly overestimating the jumping power of... Well, everyone. You know anyone who can jump 10 feet vertically?
Nope. But I also don't know anyone with a Strength score of 18~20. Or anyone above... I dunno... 3rd level? Maybe there is one or 2 guys I know about who are 5th level (Stephen Hawking is probably a 5th level expert with high Intelligence score and Skill Focus).
I also don't know guys who can go invisible through the power of meditation. Or shoot fireballs because they are really smart. Or grow fangs and wings because they're really angry.
Jumping 10ft in the air should be pretty easy for someone who fights werewolves, trolls, zombies and dragons on a daily basis.
None of these points have any relevance to how to resolve the action in question. The game has rules which cover these situations, though not directly. How much or little you decide to use those rules is up to you. Some applications will impinge on other abilities (like Spring Attack) and some won't. In the end what happens in real life or the fact that there are dragons in the game doesn't have any impact on the current situation. The GM is free to do whatever he wants for whatever reason, but if he starts making inconsistent rulings the game will suffer for it.
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OK Here is how I see the rule...
Melee Attacking flying creature:
Make acrobatics check as part of move action, success means you can reach the flying creature to attack it and failure means you cannot reach the flying creature.
If deemed you can reach the flying creature you may attack and land within the movement allowed (single movement if you do not have spring attack and if you can add long jumping distance to your overall high/long jump you may land beyond the flying creature).
If the distance required to land it greater than your allowed movement you immediately fall to the ground below the creature, which would require you to make a (free action) acrobatics check or fall prone and take appropriate damage.
In either case (unless you have spring attack), because you continue to move you would provoke an AoO. If you begin falling after attacking the flying creature the creature you would be flatfooted during the creatures attack.
Charge applies normally +2 to attack -2 to AC.
That seems a very reasonable way to rule/run it STJ.
If it made the combat scene more exciting I would allow it, for sure. I encourage my players to do things like this. I'd probably give extra XP or an extra Hero Point for it, too.
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Part of movement is checking, at the end of movement, whether the character is in a legal space. Are you ok with a character air walking up through the center of a room without some means of doing so? If not, then why is it ok when followed by an attack? Sounds to me like the character ended his movement in an illegal space.
If he didn't end movement, but is merely making the attack there, it's a Spring Attack. Is anyone arguing that a character is more capable of doing this in three dimensions than in 2D? Would you let the character spring attack in 2D without the feat? If no, why do it in 3D, where the character has less control over his movement?
Gotta make a choice here: has the character ended movement or not?
Grabbing a broomstick and trying this in one's living room doesn't replicate the action at hand; waving a broomstick isn't the same thing as a considered attack through the defenses of the enemy.
The game provides various ways to attempt activities. These include 1) everyone can do it all the time, 2) everyone can attempt it, but may fail (skill), 3) only some people can attempt it (feat), and so on. People might disagree where something falls on this spectrum along with their perspective of what they want out of their game. That's cool.
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So, some are not comfortable unless they complicate this action, for the sake of complicating it?
Imagine it was not an attack, but some trying to jump in the air and grab a hanging rope, or dunk a basketball.
Would you not use the same rules?
Simply an Acrobatic(jump) check, followed by the desired action, followed by falling, with an Acrobatics check to not fall prone.
Seriously, if I said I wanted to dunk a basketball(or other similar sized object) and my DM looked at me and said no, I would be pissed.
None of these points have any relevance to how to resolve the action in question. The game has rules which cover these situations, though not directly. How much or little you decide to use those rules is up to you. Some applications will impinge on other abilities (like Spring Attack) and some won't. In the end what happens in real life or the fact that there are dragons in the game doesn't have any impact on the current situation. The GM is free to do whatever he wants for whatever reason, but if he starts making inconsistent rulings the game will suffer for it.@Lemmy
I think you're also vastly overestimating the jumping power of... Well, everyone. You know anyone who can jump 10 feet vertically?
Nope. But I also don't know anyone with a Strength score of 18~20. Or anyone above... I dunno... 3rd level? Maybe there is one or 2 guys I know about who are 5th level (Stephen Hawking is probably a 5th level expert with high Intelligence score and Skill Focus).
I also don't know guys who can go invisible through the power of meditation. Or shoot fireballs because they are really smart. Or grow fangs and wings because they're really angry.
Jumping 10ft in the air should be pretty easy for someone who fights werewolves, trolls, zombies and dragons on a daily basis.
Fair enough. But you see, I didn't argue the rules in that post, or how much one should adhere to them. He made a point about verisimilitude, so I did the same.
I was asked if I knew anyone who could jump 10ft vertically, I answered.
Falling is a free action, right? So jumping (move action), attacking (standard action), then falling (free action) should be possible.
I'd rule that the jumping guy roll Acrobatics to decide if he will provoke an attack of opportunity and/or take fall damage.
None of these points have any relevance to how to resolve the action in question. The game has rules which cover these situations, though not directly. How much or little you decide to use those rules is up to you. Some applications will impinge on other abilities (like Spring Attack) and some won't. In the end what happens in real life or the fact that there are dragons in the game doesn't have any impact on the current situation. The GM is free to do whatever he wants for whatever reason, but if he starts making inconsistent rulings the game will suffer for it.@Lemmy
I think you're also vastly overestimating the jumping power of... Well, everyone. You know anyone who can jump 10 feet vertically?
Nope. But I also don't know anyone with a Strength score of 18~20. Or anyone above... I dunno... 3rd level? Maybe there is one or 2 guys I know about who are 5th level (Stephen Hawking is probably a 5th level expert with high Intelligence score and Skill Focus).
I also don't know guys who can go invisible through the power of meditation. Or shoot fireballs because they are really smart. Or grow fangs and wings because they're really angry.
Jumping 10ft in the air should be pretty easy for someone who fights werewolves, trolls, zombies and dragons on a daily basis.
Fair enough. But you see, I didn't argue the rules in that post, or how much one should adhere to them. He made a point about verisimilitude, so I did the same.
I was asked if I knew anyone who could jump 10ft vertically, I answered.
Sorry I was referring to his post as well in the reply.
Simply an Acrobatic(jump) check, followed by the desired action, followed by falling, with an Acrobatics check to not fall prone.
This is exactly what I think the rules come up with and works for combat or dunking, except a creature may get an attack of opportunity and so would the hoop if it was animated first by the opposing coach. With a simple Acrobatics test you can negate the falling damage and not land prone.
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Lemmy,
This question came up in my game because we had a ninja with a base 30 jump and rolled high. He didn't have enough move to land so with no rules we just had him awkwardly hang in the air till next round.
In the future I think I will use...
Melee attacking flying creature:
Make acrobatics check as part of move action, success means you can reach the flying creature to attack it and failure means you cannot reach the flying creature.
If deemed you can reach the flying creature you may attack and land within the movement allowed (single movement if you do not have spring attack and if you can add long jumping distance to your overall high/long jump you may land beyond the flying creature).
If the distance required to land it greater than your allowed movement you immediately fall to the ground below the creature, which would require you to make a (free action) acrobatics check or fall prone and take appropriate damage.
In either case (unless you have spring attack), because you continue to move you would provoke an AoO. If you begin falling after attacking the flying creature the creature you would be flatfooted during the creatures attack.
If you charge the charge attack applies normally +2 to attack -2 to AC.
Unless a developer comes in makes an Errata or FAQ.
If this were NBA Jams: The Role-playing Game, I'd agree, however there's already way too many needless feats to do circumstantial things characters should probably be able to do on a case by case basis in a heroic fantasy RPG. Add to this that there is a viable skill pertaining to the action, there just needs to be a ruling on how the action is done, no additional cumbersome mechanics or feats required.
Dunking is something that takes enough practice to represent a feat or two. Particularly for anyone less than 6'6".
This ^^^^
While I'm a huge fan of feats and the options and whiz bang they offer to a character, there are several, IMHO, that just aren't needed. Common sense and anyone who has ever watched three minutes of a classic action adventure movie should know this. Don't over complicate things; like I said earlier, if it raises the cool/wow factor in a combat by a notch or more, do it. If you must, apply a penalty of some sort. Don't worry about charging and where you end up in a space or how many Acro checks you need to make. That just slows things down and becomes a fun drain.
Sorry I was referring to his post as well in the reply.
Ah, I see. My mistake.
Also, I edit-ninja'd you. ^^
I'd like to know the opinion of one of the devs on this question...
I'm assuming the most "RAW" answer is letting the character jump, but he'd provoke an AoO and probably take fall damage too. (Personally, I'd do away with the AoO and let Acrobatics decide if he took fall damage)
Would you let the character spring attack in 2D without the feat? If no, why do it in 3D, where the character has less control over his movement?
Because moving again would take a move action, something the character doesn't have anymore. Falling, OTOH, is a free action, and the character has plenty of those.
At least, that's how I see it.