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I'm going to play a Gnome Gunslinger in an upcoming game. I know Gnomes aren't really the most awesome gunslingers, but the race won't change, so don't bother trying to convince me.
Now Gnomes have a Charisma bonus so naturally I was looking at the Mysterious Stranger archetype. But I'm simply not convinced. So I need another perspective on things to see if I'm simply biased and don't see it, or if its really not there.
1) Why or in what areas is a Mysterious Stranger actually better than a Musket Master/Pistolero? And do you think that outweights the things where it's worse?
2) The GM may allow to take both Mysterious Stranger and Pistolero at the same time (since by RAW Pistol training doesn't replace Gun Training, and hasn't been erettad or FAQ'd yet). Would that change things?
Well... Here is my humble opinion:
Mysterious Stranger is a cool archetype, but it's very weak, mostly due to its loss of Gun Training and need to spend Grit to use its equivalent ability.
Pistolero fix that. It makes a subpar archetype into a viable one. If you can't combine the archetypes, Mysterious Stranger is just a guy with a very expensive crossbow 'til at least 11th level, when he can take the "Signature Trick" feat and apply it to add Cha to damage every time.
So that's 11 levels of sucking. Grit is pretty limited, since it's only Wisdom(or Charisma) modifier instead of Wis/Cha + 1/2 level or even Wis/Cha+3.
The "Mysterious Pistolero" is a fun character to play. It can be combined with 2~5 of Paladin for an awesome Sheriff kind of character.
It's not OP either, as it still suffers from the usual Gunslinger weaknesses (limited range, expensive weapons and ammo, long reloading time, poor will saves, misfires, etc)
Mysterious Strangers are great Party Faces and can have a decent UMD score, which is always useful. If you like playing those roles, you'll have lots of fun with the class archetype. But really, it's only worth it if you can mix Stranger and Pistolero.
Mysterious Strangers are also good if you want to multi-class with Cha based classes, obviously.
Take the gnome archetype experimental Gunsmith, it is both awesome and fun. My only wish is that it wasn't a gnome only archetype but you won't have that problem
Take the gnome archetype experimental Gunsmith, it is both awesome and fun. My only wish is that it wasn't a gnome only archetype but you won't have that problem
I thought about it, and while it does seem fun, it also seems to be rather bad.
- Replaces Gunsmithing. You get a castrated version that only works with your starting firearm. Depending on how you interpret it, that means you can't even make your own ammunitions anymore.
- Innovations replace Gun Training. Now lets see what you get in return:
-- Expanded Capacity: Once you can reload as a free action that becomes uterly useless, and even before its really only good on the first round, because with early firearms you have to reload each barrel seperately. Also I can just take a double barreled pistol/musket in the first place, does exactly the same.
-- Expanded Chamber: Yay a +1 damage... the Gun Training you gave up most likely gives you more, assuming you have 12 or more Dex, which I hope you do. Also costs twice as much black powder, which might mean you can't make alchemical cartridges for it. Maybe you can, dunno. Also it explodes even the first time you misfire. Not a good trade either.
-- Grapple Launcher: Ok at least something unique. Reduces range by 50% though which is really bad (this might only apply though wehn actually firing a grappling hook)
-- Recoilless: Ok +10 ft range and when it breaks it doesn't make the gun worse than it would be without it. This is actually decent, but still think Gun Training beats it.
-- Vial Launcher: The range isn't great with a pistol not better than just throwing it. Get any bonus from the firearm to it though, and the save DC is calculated differently, which may be a nice thing later on. If you misfire it blows up in your face, which is not so great.
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Mysterious Stranger gets awesome at 7th level with the Dead Shot deed. No other archetype gets to multiply its damage bonus with each successful "hit" while using this deed. Mysterious Stranger does. Also, being able to ignore misfires several times per day at level 5 is not to be underestimated, particularly when you're at the point of making multiple iterative attacks.
Also something to consider:
Lucky. You aren't going to have as great a wisdom as a regular gunslinger, and heaven forbid: a Dominated gunslinger would just rip up a party.
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Also something to consider:
Lucky. You aren't going to have as great a wisdom as a regular gunslinger, and heaven forbid: a Dominated gunslinger would just rip up a party.
Shouldn't you have a great wisdom as a regular gunslinger? Isn't it the second best stat?
Greg
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Mysterious Stranger is not a dex based class. It is entirely Cha based.
Whereas the standard slinger and the main archetypes add their To-Hit stat to damage a la Str for a melee fighter, the Stranger adds their Grit stat to damage.
This means you will want LOTS of grit. Max your Cha. It's not useless, it's your damage stat.
One thing the Stranger can do that the others can't do is COMPLETELY IGNORE a misfire. Guess which stat matters for that? That's right, it's also your damage and grit stat. The un-misfire ability isn't Grit dependent. While that means you won't be able to reclaim grit to recharge it, it also means you've got to use them wisely.
This makes the Dead Shot deed all the more appealing. You minimize your misfires on a deadshot by a long way.
Having a high charisma makes UMD much more worth your while. Pick up a wand of one of those fancy Firearms based spells. Jury-Rig can also be useful if you intend to stretch yourself thin. Clever use of the reloading spells can allow you to Dead shot with a musket.
How would you like to full attack with Burning Hands? With a Mysterious Stranger, you can. Just use a Dragon Pistol and use Dragonsbreath Alchemical rounds. Normally these would misfire just under 1/3rd of the time, but you don't care, because you ignore misfires. This is the only class that can use Dragonsbreath rounds with any degree of reliability. I recommend this on a Flaming weapon, some other similar burst.
You don't have a single bad save. Your bonus to AC changes to a Will save bonus. You become tailor made to take out casters. Though it won't grow at exactly the same rate, they eventually even out rather well.
As a Gnome, you should take the race trait that allows you to reroll 1's for the purposes of ignoring misfires. You get your Charisma boon, which you NEED, and a Con Boon. Given that your AC doesn't get any boosts, some additional HP will help cushion the blows.
A note on ignoring misfires: Considering you aim on touch AC, you'll get to the point where a 2 will be all you need to hit. If you ignore the misfire, you will hit and only actually miss on a 1. At 11th level, you do half-damage on a miss. This makes the Mysterious Stranger the never-miss class. Considering you can just ignore misfires, you can keep making your full attack as opposed to every other gunslinger who must stop a full-round attack in order to use the quick clear deed.
Max out your Charisma, and take Dex and Con as your next two most important stats. Dragon Pistol and the Pepperbox will be your friends. The Deft Shootist Deed feat will be very important.
I'm not terribly fond of the Gnome favoured class bonus ability; The Gunsmithing feat takes 5 minutes less time, and the best you get at 10th level makes it the equivalent of a Mending spell. If any other member of the party has Mending you'd be better off with that.
Thanks Pharmalade. But let me counter a few things:
Is it really Cha based? Infact its Dex and Cha based. You need Dex to hit and Cha for damage. While normal Gunslinger (when I say Gunslinger in this post I generally mean the baseclass and Pistolero or Musket Master) only need Dex from level 5 on for both.
And they get that plus damage for free, without needing to spend Grit on it.
However it's true the Cha gets multiplied by Dead Shot, which the Dex bonus doesn't. I think.
Yes, she can completely ignore a misfire which is really cool. But for other classes a misfire isn't a disaster either. They have the quick clear deed, which Mysterious Strangers lack. Granted they don't have that much need for it, but once you've gone through your free misfires on an unlucky day that can ruin yours. (I admit outright ignoring it is better though)
However once the other classes reach level 7 the chance for a misfire reduces dramatically if they use Dead Shot. Also at level 13 the Pistolero and Musket Master become immune to it forever. Not just x/day, but always.
Also there's the Reliable and Greater Reliable weapon enchantment, even though it's not cheap.
UMD... ok, I'm not really sure, are there that many that affect Gunslingers. There's Abundant Ammunitions, which may help save some money, would have to make the math to see how many shots you have to fire to get your money worth. Also I guess just getting a magic pouch with that on it is easier in the long run. Any other?
The Dragon's Breath weapon seems like a nice trick, but 2d6 soon becomes irrelevant and I'm not really sure you add all that Cha bonus and weapon damage and whatever else you ahve to that attack or if its just 2d6. Also super expensive.
Alright the Will save is good, can't argue that.
I admit it has some good points, thank you for your post.
I will have to research some of the Gunslinger friendly spells to see if UMD is worth it.
I thought Mysterious Stranger/Pistolero would fit nicely with Arcane Duellist Bard.
Mysterious Stranger? Gnome? Here you go.
Banned in Germany because of the soundtrack. :(
Also just got word from the GM, Mysterious Pistolero is allowed, so actually alot of the Stranger's disadvantages aren't that terrible anymore.
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So that's 11 levels of sucking. Grit is pretty limited, since it's only Wisdom(or Charisma) modifier instead of Wis/Cha + 1/2 level or even Wis/Cha+3.
where is the wis/cha +1/2 level coming from? I have seen other mention of it, but cant find the rules about gaining grit with level... is it new? favored class bonus? have I completely missed something?
thanks!
No it's just Wis. Other classes have some of their limited resources at Wis+3 or Wis+1/2 level, that's what he was refering to. That Gunslingers don't get that.
Theres also always the Extra Grit feat I guess, but the first few levels are filled with other stuff, before i'll think about that.
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No it's just Wis. Other classes have some of their limited resources at Wis+3 or Wis+1/2 level, that's what he was refering to. That Gunslingers don't get that.
Theres also always the Extra Grit feat I guess, but the first few levels are filled with other stuff, before i'll think about that.
ok, thanks!
So that's 11 levels of sucking. Grit is pretty limited, since it's only Wisdom(or Charisma) modifier instead of Wis/Cha + 1/2 level or even Wis/Cha+3.
where is the wis/cha +1/2 level coming from? I have seen other mention of it, but cant find the rules about gaining grit with level... is it new? favored class bonus? have I completely missed something?
thanks!
Ah, what I meant is that it's only equal to Wis/Cha modifier, not Wis/Cha + 1/2 level or even +3, as it usually is the case for point-based limited resources (like a Magus' Arcana or a Ninja's Ki)
I play a mysterious stranger and by level 11 you can make the focus shot a signature deed . and the ignoring a misfire is worth it. I dont think you will notice a huge difference. if you are makign a god gunslinger you will spend a grit point to add charisma damage drop your enemy and get your grit right back. it is basically the opposite ignore misfires for free and add damage for grit. versus add damage for free and ignore misfires for grit.
my dm still complains about my mysterious stranger paladin doign way to much damage if that helps.
Yup, you do add your nonFeat bonuses to scatter weapon damage, even if it's something odd like Dragon's Breath carts. If you have a Cha of, say, 6 (Cha 18 plus race bonus, +2 headband) and Rapid Shot with a BAB of 6 or greater, you deal 6d6+18 with three reflex saves. You ignore cover a cone would ignore and you ignore concealment. This should only be used on two or more baddies.
You could also just use regular scatter shot, which in this case would deal 1d4+Cha+weapon dmg on touch AC per shot, not ignoring cover but still ignoring concealment. Jury's out on the range and possibly the crit-threat (the misprint was reprinted in UE), but as long as you are aiming at multiple critters, your misfire chance is reduced.
Of course a straight (misprinted) Pistolero would deal 1d4+2xDex+ weapon damage when using pellets assuming you specialize in Dragon Pistol. If the misprint stands, I would advise you against taking Mysterious Stranger. Max out your Pistolero's Dexterity, take at least 12 Wisdom, and choose your Gun Training gun wisely and you'll do twice your dex mod on damage. My GM won't allow this as it's quite obviously an error. If you have the option to do it, I don't see why you wouldn't. Getting Cha AND Dex to damage doesn't compare.
(I also suspect the 11th level grit ability of the Mysterious Stranger replaces something, but this is much, much more vague as to what it could possibly be replacing or if it genuinely is a bonus ability.)
I'm actually playing a Mysterious Stranger in my current campaign, so here's my take. Yes, grit is limited compared to Ninja, Monks or Magi; however grit recharges during the day, not just in the morning. Yes, the AC loss hurt, but I had a Will save second only to our Paladin. I found that at early levels I could match our Ranger, after lvl 5 it started to taper off due to reloading and not getting any bonuses to damage without spending grit. The trick is that at that point, you get targeting, which has a couple 1 round debuffs with no save, or a free trip with no roll against CMD. At lvl 11, my GM let me make a revolver; that, Signature Deed, and three crits let me kill a Purrodaemon nearly solo at lvl 11.
I just wanted to say thank you to you all. I'm starting to see that the Mysterious Stranger has its own strengths, that might be different from Pistolero or Musket Master but they're there.
What kinda bothers me though is this:
They trade out Quick Clear and only get their ignore misfire ability at level 5.
And the early levels are when you can't really afford a backup firearm because they cost alot, so how do you deal with Misfires early in the game?
Misfires in the early game are indeed crippling. You need to have a spellcaster use Mending outside of combat. Also, you can avoid more misfires by not using alchemical cartridges. Your damage output is cut in half, but you don't become automatically useless unless you're REALLY unlucky.
As a Gnome, you do have the race-trait that allows you to reroll a 1 once per day. Save it for your misfire or a save or die.
Your alternative would be to use a bow and shoot some arrows until you can safely Gunsmith. It's like the wizard running out of spells, it happens. Granted, it happens randomly, but it does happen.
If you are going the every-other-round route, you may as well use a Musket as your battered weapon. It's a greataxe you swing at range and a d12 makes a lot of difference at early levels. You can also get your Cha to damage whereas a proper gunslinger cannot. Assuming a Cha mod of 4 or 5, you're hitting like a Barbarian every other round without putting yourself in harm's way.
Yes, I think I will avoid alchemical cartridges the first few levels (only using them if I have to).
If I take Rapid Reload I can reload the normal way as move action, thats fine as long as I only have 1 attack.
But that also means taking Rapid Shot before 5th level is not that useful.
But you're right having some sort of backup weapon is probably mandatory.