andersen's page

BigNorseWolf wrote:

Mithral counts as one category lighter, so it won't slow you down.

Indeed. Mithril Kikko armor has three drawbacks:

• Arcane spell failure: 10% (ignored by bard and magus, overcome by Arcane Armor Training)
  
• The fact that it's armor at all (for monks)
  
• It costs 4,030gp
  

If those aren't enough to chase you off, it's the best light armor around.

I have darkleaf studded armor

3 armor max dex is 7 no ac and 775gp

and your wearing crazy leaves and twigs and whatnot

the main feats you want are

point blank shot
rapid reload
precise shot
deadly aim
rapid shot

the order is up to you, but the first should be point blank shot and either precise or deadly aim or rapid reload.

rapid shot is likely 4th or 5th. if you are going to get a double pistol then wait on rapid reload as that is per gun type so wont work with your starter pistol (and I think it is 3rd level at the earliest that you will have the fame for a double pistol).

I took precise shot last as it was situational. not sure if I would do this again, as even against touch ac I would still miss a lot when firing into melee.

after this there are good feats to take (extra grit being a good one), but none that are as "essential" as these first five

I think they aren't officially clarified as light weapons anywhere, but yeah, you can dual wield pistols

two weapon fighting helps with the penalties and all that..

I think like others are saying, gunslinger doesnt work well as a backup class. you'd probably be better off with a wand of magic missile then one lvl of gunslinger (then you'd be a missile slinger).
5 levels of gunslinger however would go very well with a wizard. having dex to damage and the most important/pertinent feats. but this would be more focused on the gunslinger part.
but if this isnt what you want, it isnt what you want.
if you want one level of gunslinger I'd go mysterious stranger, especially if you switched from wizard to sorcerer as mysterious stranger uses charisma instead of dex. and their 1st level ability adds charisma modifier to damage which is more useful if your gun isnt your primary weapon (you can do this only as much as your charisma modifier).

1. you must take rapid reload for double musket (axe musket, etc.), this is different then the rapid reload for the single-barreled musket that you start with.

2. the lower range seems a typo, though to the best of my knowledge it hasnt been errate'd yet...

Caderyn wrote:

Both shots are simultaneous, which means you get the 1 misfire + 1 hit (and the misfire chance is not raised for this 2nd shot), however remember if you get 2 misfires your weapon explodes (and this would apply instantly to a double barrelled weapon if both shots misfired)

Because "Both Barrels" are fired in the same action, even if you roll two 1's the gun will not explode, the misfire penalty does not have the opportunity to stack with the other shot. It gains the broken condition (misfire +2) for the next attack. If the next shot falls in the misfire value and it still has the broken condition then the gun would explode.

I always assumed that two misfires would explode the gun and that the penalty stacks as well. but I suppose that doesnt make sense as it is two separate barrels, so why would one being broken cause the other, which isnt broken, to go straight to exploding.

I am wondering if there is an official pfs ruling on this scenario:
I fire both barrels of my double pistol, one misfires and the other hits-- do I still get to roll damage for the hit or does the misfire automatically negate both attacks?

This may sound dumb, but uh...never start any fight loaded with paper cartridges. Load normal ammo for your first shots per barrel, everytime.

I dont think this is dumb at all!

I think the "penalties stack" is referring to deadly aim stacking with twf stacking with double pistol, etc. the reference to "do not have a type" is alluding to the bonus types (like competence bonus) and how they dont stack, so it is clarifying that the penalties do. but I dont think this means that they would increase in anyway.

the devs. explination to the first question is very confusing, but I think he is saying that double pistol shot is one of the attacks, as in "an attack that is a part of the full-attack" i.e. in a full attack round you get (say) three attacks, 1st bab, 2nd bab, and rapid shot, the "double tap", referring to the original question, is one of those attacks, as in the 1st bab, but this does not mean that the other attacks being made couldnt also be attacks made with both barrels. in other words, your first attack could be both barrels with the -4 to hit for both, your 2nd bab could be a single barrel shot and your rapid shot attack could be single barrel as well. or they could all be double barrel shots. again, this isnt totally clear, but if you look to his response to the 3rd question, which is about an all out attack with twf and double pistols at 20th lvl, I think he clarifies his answer:

firing all but 8 bullets (four attacks, 8 attack rolls) with the double pistol (at base attack plus double barrel pistol penalties at +12/+7/+2/-3 for each)

four attacks but 8 rolls-- double pistol means two rolls per attack. the +12/+7/+2/-3 is the bab at 20th lvl -4 for twf and -4 for double pistol.

to get the off-handed weapon attacks (two at +12 and two at +7, just counting base attack and penalties for two-weapon fighting and the double barrel pistol)

again the +12 and the +7 are the babs and there are two because of the double pistol

you need the two weapon fighting feat and then it is -4, -4

Since almost every gunslinger build I've seen on these forums end up like this, I am starting to understand why GM's keep on banning gunslinger... Why is no one ever happy with one gun? Why is there no love for muskets?

I am curious to get to 7th lvl and get the targeting shot deed, seems like it could be very useful and super fun. could be a good signature deed for a musket master, especially nice with that extra range. on the other hand 20% misfires would be a drag...

andersen wrote:

I mean I like rolling d10s and d12s because of their shape, d4s are just too weird, you dont roll a d4, you drop it onto the table. even d6, its too much like monopoly. this is why I dont like greatswords.

I have my Great-Grandfather's Ivory D6, so I love using them.

They are so nicotine stained, that they got nicknamed my "smoke dice".

dice with a history are definitely cool,

I mean I like rolling d10s and d12s because of their shape, d4s are just too weird, you dont roll a d4, you drop it onto the table. even d6, its too much like monopoly. this is why I dont like greatswords.

A highly regarded expert wrote:

'Cuz rolling 2d10 on a crit with one hand is just cool.

Why is it cooler than rolling 2d8? Or rolling 2d6 50% more often?

I agree, rolling a d10 is so nice, or a d12 is even better. I'd never want a falchion, even though it is the uber crit weapon, just becuase rolling 2d4 seems like such a drag. even d6s seem kinda rough...

the price you pay for being so awesome....

I love this idea, way to go!

better initiative, surprise round attacks, wands-- amazing

and there is no real 12th lvl gunslinger ability that you would be missing.

also, to get even more initiative there is a good ioun stone (dusty rose cracked) that is +1

deadly aim does work with guns.

you might want to stay gunslinger to at least 13th level where you no longer misfire. if you are twf using double barrel pistol misfires will probably be more common then you'd like.

also signature deed at 11th level.

edit: valmoon got me!

Why is Str not a problem? Because your Dex will be so high you'll only need leather armor. At level 8 you should have 20 Dex and a +4 stat belt. +7 Dex armor bonus = Leather. Also, because you're playing a gunslinger gunslinger style you don't need any melee weapons.

darkleaf cloth studded leather is max dex +7, no armor penalty, ac +3, 10 lbs, 775gp, and counts as masterwork if you want to add to it later..

yeah, no need to be a switch hitter. and it isnt really one trick pony, there is a lot of tactical decisions to make, to position yourself well and move as little as possible, all pretty close to melee. I looked into zen archer, but in the end it seemed pretty boring, just sit in the back and unload. gunslingers are a bit more on their toes, which is fun.

yeah, and the double musket would be 1-4, with the possibility of an explosion, which wont happen with a normal musket.

one trick to do, once you have 3rd lvl, and reloading with alchemical shots is a free action, reload your weapon at the beginning of your turn. this way when the combat/encounter is over you can reload with a normal shot/gunpowder, this saves money and also helps with the misfire range on the next shot you make.

yeah, so in effect, you dont get the free rapid reload at 1st level if you want to go double musket.

but this isnt all that terrible, or even you could not go double musket.

rapid shot is very good-- not too expensive, but dont take this until 3rd level as you wont be able to take advantage of it until you get fast musket.
point blank is good and a prereq for other stuff.
precise shot is good too, as is deadly aim. the order you take these is based more on how you see your pluses and minuses to to hit and to damage. keep in mind you are touch ac, so it isnt that hard to hit. I took deadly aim early on because I liked the inconsistency of hitting but with higher damage. I wonder too if being musket master with better range then pistol you will be able to take guys out before they even enter melee...

if you are going to multi-class, at least get to 5th level so you can add dex to damage.

and get a double-barreled musket whenever you have enough fame to afford (usually in 3rd level at some point). it is a -4 to hit, and adds a misfire, but doubles the damage. try to get a +1 on that asap as well, if not when you buy it-- if a non-magic gun explodes you're out the gold, but a magic weapon you can "make whole" for 60gp..

one question I have, is rapid reload and the issue of it being for a gun type (like muskets) or a specific gun (like either musket or double barreled musket). discussion on the boards seem to be that they are for specific guns. though in musket master archetype it mentions you get a bonus feat lvl1 rapid reload (muskets), plural, implying it is for all muskets. this makes sense to me as it is just two musket barrels, but with pfs it seems prudent to be very conservative... does anyone have any thoughts on this? has there been an official ruling?

if it is wrecked you can get a "make whole" spell for 60gp in pfs. the rules mention using gunsmithing feat to fix a wrecked firearm as well:

Early Firearms: If an early firearm with the broken condition misfires again, it explodes. When a nonmagical firearm explodes, the weapon is destroyed. Magical firearms are wrecked, which means they can't fire until they are fully restored (which requires either the make whole spell or the Gunsmithing feat).

though gunsmithing feat doesn't clarify this, and I am not sure how this would work in pfs-- anyone know if this was ever ruled on? though 60gp is cheap so maybe it doesnt matter...

but yeah, double pistol explosion before you can get the +1 to it seems a real bummer...

there are some nice ioun stones you can get as well that are listed in the seekers of secrets pathfinders chronicles book.

for instance for 2 prestige points you could get:

dark blue cracked: +2 to perception and sense motive checks
dusty rose cracked: +1 to initiative
also, a bunch that add to other skills...

Sorry to burst the bubble on this one (I've got two gunslingers myself)

Additional Resources wrote:

No character may purchase a firearm unless she possesses the Gunsmithing feat and firearms are never considered Always Available; a character must possess enough Fame to purchase any firearm not found on a Chronicle sheet or granted by a class feature

Got to have enough fame for the gun you're buying. And you can't get it free as an arcane bond either.

ah, yep, straight from the additional resources pdf you can download.... well, I guess I wasnt crazy after all!

@andersen: I am so glad I am not the only one who has moments like that.

they happen all too often :)

andersen wrote:

though with fame, it isn't until 1/3 into third level that you have the fame to make the double pistol purchase (and this is assuming you are getting 2 pp every game). in pfs you dont get the half cost craft firearms.

Reread the section regarding fame. Double Pistols are always available so long as you have the cash, so is mithril or adamantium armor.

omg, you are totally right, what was I thinking??? it must have gotten into my head somewhere that double pistols were outside of "always available"... though ironically, the whole impetus for my comments in this thread was to suggest not taking rapid reload, but now that I dont have it, I cant take full advantage of a double pistol! but thanks, glad I found this out..

Hmm, I really need to read about PFS some more.

yeah, so many little rule variations to remember! and you have to be so RAW since the idea of pfs is that you can play anywhere and so need to maintain an objective as possible understanding of the rules. thus the annoying rapid reload for double pistol being different then the starter pistol. but it is fun and makes sense that as a pathfinder you would work/adventure with multiple different adventurers...

andersen wrote:

kaisc006:I am curious as to why you take rapid reload so early on.

Sorry I took so long to reply was at U Con today but looks like people explained it :) Some other considerations:

Movement: You mentioned that a gunslinger needs to get used to not moving, but a gunslinger actually moves a lot. You must move within that first range increment so movement becomes key. Also, you may not be able to afford alchemical charges so early in the game so sticking with normal bullets means you can fire every round. I envision the gunslinger like a melee reach fighter that doesn't threaten and in many ways handles like a whip fighter.

Double Pistol: I play pfs too so didn't begin with a double pistol. However, in society play you should get one at 2nd level. With rapid reload, you now can fire twice every standard action. This is the only time I use double shot unless in an emergency to avoid a potential explosion (plus rolling so many attacks gets obnoxious lol). Also you'll be dealing fantastic DPR so double shotting all the time isn't necessary.

yeah, I guess I have been lucky thus far with encounters, moving into place in the that first round, and then reloading the beginning of each following round, the 5ft step being enough to do any repositioning. in one instance I stealthed into position before the melee started. it didnt quite work, I was busted at the last moment, so was in position, but rest of the party wasnt in the room when it all started. it was fun to try!

though with fame, it isn't until 1/3 into third level that you have the fame to make the double pistol purchase (and this is assuming you are getting 2 pp every game). in pfs you dont get the half cost craft firearms.

If you want to 2WF then I recommend 2 levels in Alchemist. Gets you the arm needed to reload 2 pistols, gets you Extracts (Shield is my favorite), and you can buff that Dexterity up with your Mutagen. Bombs are kind of a lame bonus but at least you can snag some Stingchucks for free and add Int to their damage...I typically do for swarms although it doesn't make sense how Stingchucks would damage a swarm...

hasnt it been concluded that using weapon cords allows for two weapon shooting? cheesey yes, but rule-wise totally legal?

well spell slinger is a lame duck of a archetype anyhow, despite the cool artwork with it!

the only advantage the fighter has is in weapon training really, I'd actually see a fighter out performing early, but falling quickly behind at lvl 5+

I love that picture too...

I seem to have been playing it wrong... my gunslinger player isn't going to be happy...

No more starting with a Battered Double Barrel that she can sell later on to get her Pepperbox. Though I like the crafting and upgrading method.

Hmm, Now how does their free gun work with advanced firearms?

double barreled pistol is probably the best gun you can get, just because every time you fire a shot you actually fire two. there could be some argument made for using a pepper box (or an advanced firearm for that matter-- I play pfs so never really think about them) and never getting rapid reload, but I dont think it would be a convincing one...

and glad you like my avatar :)

To be able to move and fire in every turn.

yeah, using alchemical shots to reload as a move action makes movement a bit more difficult in firing, but a) it is good to learn to move as little as possible and b) if your gun is loaded you can shoot and move in a round, and the next round reload and shoot. (I am almost 3rd lvl and only a couple times have not been able to make a shot because of needing to move two rounds in a row). so is it just a matter or preference between a bit extra damage and more flexibility with moving then?

for the record, this would be my feat build (with a double pistol)

1 point blank shot, deadly aim
3 rapid reload
4 rapid shot
5 maybe precise shot or twf depending on how tough hitting targets is at that point with the double pistol and rapid shot

maybe another thing to consider is that rapid reload for double pistol is different then normal pistol. this rule gets waived often, but I am in pfs where the rule is a reality, and you cant get a double pistol until after 3rd level...

Because reloading firearms as fast as possible is a bigger damage increase than deadly aim is.

at low levels you wont have rapid shot/extraBAB/twf, so reloading as a free action is unnecessary. I mean, I am saying you take rapid reload at 3rd level and then rapid shot at 4th. but I am just wondering if there is any other reason to take rapid reload at 1st level...

kaisc006:
I enjoy your posts in general, and think I will take two weapon fighting at a later level after reading your last one, but I am curious as to why you take rapid reload so early on. the only reason I could see to do this would be to save money, which, granted, is a good reason, and moving and shooting is a bit easier as well, but to me it makes sense to take deadly aim for more damage. or even precise shot if you were concerned about your to hit at low levels.

oh right, duh. the first table in the whole book...

thanks!

1 for level, 1 for Int, one specialist school spell and 1 for arcane bond.

maybe I am totally missing something here, but doesnt Int bonus give +4 for 18, +5 for 20?

unfortunately gunsmithing gives no half off discount to buy a new gun in PFS. and like big norse wolf says-- in the first few levels at least, even tougher then having the actual money is having enough fame to actually be able to spend it.

Bracers of the falcon aim are simply unbelievable, more so because someone at paizo looked at the lesser bracers of archery and thought: man, archers sure have it rough this days, better make them more powerful!"

catman123456 wrote:

IMO for the gunslinger,a gunman's duster.

+4 ac can add full dex bonus :)
+2 ac for fire arms(kind of meh for me)
+1 to grit up to max if amateur gunslinger or gunslinger

only 36,000gp

This could be the first trap of the lot.

+4 ac is worth 16k gp.
+2 ac against fire arms is kind of meh, a gunslinger will hit you anyway.
+1 to grit is not bad but not worth me 20k gp more.

also, concerning that grit, it says "this extra point does not increase her maximum grit total" so I am assuming this means, well, I have no idea what it means, except for that you aren't getting any extra grit, except in the case that you go to sleep with less grit then maximum you will get an extra in the morning... which seems utterly pointless...

No it's just Wis. Other classes have some of their limited resources at Wis+3 or Wis+1/2 level, that's what he was refering to. That Gunslingers don't get that.

Theres also always the Extra Grit feat I guess, but the first few levels are filled with other stuff, before i'll think about that.

ok, thanks!

So that's 11 levels of sucking. Grit is pretty limited, since it's only Wisdom(or Charisma) modifier instead of Wis/Cha + 1/2 level or even Wis/Cha+3.

where is the wis/cha +1/2 level coming from? I have seen other mention of it, but cant find the rules about gaining grit with level... is it new? favored class bonus? have I completely missed something?

thanks!

andersen wrote:

you would need to take rapid reload double barrel musket if you plan on going the double barrel musket route. it is different then the rapid reload you get as a musket master as a free feat. maybe gm would let you start with double-barrel though instead of the normal...

I disagree.

Musket Master gives you "Rapid Reload(Muskets)" and the firearms are listed as "Musket, Blank" and in the discription they all say "this Musket..." so to me it seems like they are all muskets.

believe me, I wish it werent so, and I'd be happy to be proven wrong, but if you search for rapid reload double pistol it brings up multiple posts like this one:

http://paizo.com/forums/dmtz50ly?Another-Rapid-Reload-question#1

it does seem like something that gms might over look, but I think PFS-wise, that is the way it is...

truth be told, for pistoleros at least, it isnt that big a deal, if you take it at 3rd lvl you should be fine (even 5th level is maybe fine...). you aren't going to be doing multiple attacks first two levels anyway. it gets a bit crunchy with moving and shooting two rounds in a row, but it is doable, and if anything builds good practice with learning to move as little as possible for when you do have more attacks and want to take a full round attacking..

as for musketeers, it is maybe tougher, and again, I dont know how you'd deal with starting off with rapid reload feat. I play a pistolero so...

you would need to take rapid reload double barrel musket if you plan on going the double barrel musket route. it is different then the rapid reload you get as a musket master as a free feat. maybe gm would let you start with double-barrel though instead of the normal...

Emil Refn wrote:

Michael Brock wrote:

Weapon cords do not prevent reloading.

Ahh thank you!

The argument over two-weapon fighting order of attacks was clarified by Jason Bulhman HERE.

Also, I keep seeing people state a gunslinger expending 100+gp in a round. In PFS, alchemical cartridges cost 50% base price (6gp per shot). Yes it's still expensive but not unmanageable.

also, it is good to still have gunpowder and shots with you as well, no need to reload using alchemical cartridges after an encounter.

and if you've taken rapid reload you can use gunpowder and shots as a move action (with pistols at least) so if you are positioned well-- and dont need to move, you can shoot and reload the old fashioned way in your turn. of course, this only works well at lower levels...