MJ has been following PFO blogs and looking towards it when it comes to funding and interaction with the community at least.
Goblin Squad Member
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@Aunt Tony
I agree, Necromancy spells that can manipulate or control peoples death is the best way to make sure death isn't just an inconvenience.
This is more a question of how hardcore the game will be instead of emergent game play. But I feel for anyone who has to try to come up with an answer to death penalties that no one will be happy with.
And I will say that when death is an inconvenience, battlefields turn into an endless tug of war of recently respawned players rushing back to the front line. It gets boring and feels meaningless.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I am still a fan of this death penalty.
Pretty cool idea, the problem is for those that don't have a deity. In lore, Pharasma feeds their souls to Groetus to keep him away from the boneyard.
Although I favor a death penalty that urges players to try not to die, meaning more of a penalty then in "easy mode" games, the problem I see with the DP you detail is that if players are dieting a lot, you could quickly rake up a sizable amount of things you need to do before having it lifted. In a battle that would be a real PIA!
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Goblin Squad Member
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Regardless of what penalty exists, I hope the mechanics make it either difficult or ineffective to immediately return to the battle.
Also, keep in mind that many of the battles that are fought in PFO will have a very significant impact on the losers, so there's already a "meaningful death penalty" of sorts.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I wouldn't mind something comparable to the temporary negative level that most spells in tabletop PF give, as long as it's temporary. Make it last one in-game day, that's still a couple hours realtime, and enough to stack to attrition in the case of a protracted large-scale battle.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Regardless of what penalty exists, I hope the mechanics make it either difficult or ineffective to immediately return to the battle.
Also, keep in mind that many of the battles that are fought in PFO will have a very significant impact on the losers, so there's already a "meaningful death penalty" of sorts.
True. The Assassin pvp flag will make it so that your closest respawn point is not usable, making you res farther away. This ability can become devastating if used in a battle to defend a settlement. There really doesn't need to be much of a penalty beyond that.
True. The Assassin pvp flag will make it so that your closest respawn point is not usable, making you res farther away. This ability can become devastating if used in a battle to defend a settlement. There really doesn't need to be much of a penalty beyond that.Regardless of what penalty exists, I hope the mechanics make it either difficult or ineffective to immediately return to the battle.
Also, keep in mind that many of the battles that are fought in PFO will have a very significant impact on the losers, so there's already a "meaningful death penalty" of sorts.
Heh, that would be devastating to take out the commanders during a major battle, dumping them well back in their territory as their soldiers falter and fall apart without leadership in the battle! ;)
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Goblin Squad Member
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I am still a fan of this death penalty.Pretty cool idea, the problem is for those that don't have a deity. In lore, Pharasma feeds their souls to Groetus to keep him away from the boneyard.
So make Pharasma or even Groetus the default deity one must work off dp for...for those who choose not to choose another.
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Goblin Squad Member
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So make Pharasma or even Groetus the default deity one must work off dp for...for those who choose not to choose another.I am still a fan of this death penalty.Pretty cool idea, the problem is for those that don't have a deity. In lore, Pharasma feeds their souls to Groetus to keep him away from the boneyard.
Doesn't being forced to advance an NPC's agenda sort of run contrary to the intent of a player-created world? Not to mention requiring that the devs create more themepark content. And really, how many can they create before all the respawn quests become nauseatingly familiar?
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Goblin Squad Member
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Doesn't being forced to advance an NPC's agenda sort of run contrary to the intent of a player-created world? Not to mention requiring that the devs create more themepark content. And really, how many can they create before all the respawn quests become nauseatingly familiar?So make Pharasma or even Groetus the default deity one must work off dp for...for those who choose not to choose another.I am still a fan of this death penalty.Pretty cool idea, the problem is for those that don't have a deity. In lore, Pharasma feeds their souls to Groetus to keep him away from the boneyard.
I am not sure what NPC agenda you are referring to, the gods of the world you "live" in?...and as for nauseating missions...I thought the goal was death deterrent (that is the only reason I would add dp).
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Goblin Squad Member
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I am not sure what NPC agenda you are referring to, the gods of the world you "live" in?...and as for nauseating missions...I thought the goal was death deterrent (that is the only reason I would add dp).
Yes, I'm referring to the gods. Advancing the cause of a god is fine for a divine character like a cleric or paladin. It makes far less sense for a character like fighter or rogue who may worship the gods whose portfolio impacts their lives, but they're still not devotees or servants of that god. For some it does, but for the vast majority it's just advancing an NPCs agenda that I may or may not support.
And "annoying repetition" is not the kind of death deterrant that benefits a game. Particularly one where death is expected to be fairly common (as they have said it is anticipated to be in PFO).
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Goblin Squad Member
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Yes, I'm referring to the gods. Advancing the cause of a god is fine for a divine character like a cleric or paladin. It makes far less sense for a character like fighter or rogue who may worship the gods whose portfolio impacts their lives, but they're still not devotees or servants of that god. For some it does, but for the vast majority it's just advancing an NPCs agenda that I may or may not support.
Well I think you are projecting you knowledge of our world upon the residents of a world in which the gods are the very fabric of the universe. Alignment for instance is a very real effect in the world and is determined entirely by the whims of those gods, there is no escaping it. Saying one does not worship gods in Golarion and therefore refuse to be impacted by and work the agenda of is like someone on Earth stating they do not believe in gravity and therefore refuse to be impacted by and work the agenda of. Ummm, okay. Point being, everything done in Golarion effects some deities agenda.
The gods are not NPCs, they are the physics.
And "annoying repetition" is not the kind of death deterrant that benefits a game. Particularly one where death is expected to be fairly common (as they have said it is anticipated to be in PFO).
I will concede this, back when we were discussing the topic I linked, many of us were still hoping life would not be so cheap in PfO and a good death penalty could be used to deter stupid/ruthless behaviour. Perhaps it is a pointless discussion to have now.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Well I think you are projecting you knowledge of our world upon the residents of a world in which the gods are the very fabric of the universe. Alignment for instance is a very real effect in the world and is determined entirely by the whims of those gods, there is no escaping it. Saying one does not worship gods in Golarion and therefore refuse to be impacted by and work the agenda of is like someone on Earth stating they do not believe in gravity and therefore refuse to be impacted by and work the agenda of. Ummm, okay. Point being, everything done in Golarion effects some deities agenda.
The gods are not NPCs, they are the physics.
ruthless behaviour. Perhaps it is a pointless discussion to have now.
The part I was referring to was in the original proposal you linked:
To enforce this, make the player rez with -5% stats per death, until they complete the mission for the deity...at which time the deity fully restores them. Die 3 times without doing missions and your stats are at 85.7% (100-5%-5%-5%) and you have 3 times the missions to do until you are fully restored.The missions would be related to the goals of your chosen deity...
Physics doesn't have goals, intelligent agents have goals, if they're agents, the gods are acting as NPCs. In effect, you are suggesting I should have to undertake actions at the behest of non-player entity or suffer permanent, stacking debuffs to my character. Binding players to be the servants of NPC agency is antithetical to creating a world defined by player choices and actions.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Well I think you are projecting you knowledge of our world upon the residents of a world in which the gods are the very fabric of the universe. Alignment for instance is a very real effect in the world and is determined entirely by the whims of those gods, there is no escaping it. Saying one does not worship gods in Golarion and therefore refuse to be impacted by and work the agenda of is like someone on Earth stating they do not believe in gravity and therefore refuse to be impacted by and work the agenda of. Ummm, okay. Point being, everything done in Golarion effects some deities agenda.
The gods are not NPCs, they are the physics.
ruthless behaviour. Perhaps it is a pointless discussion to have now.The part I was referring to was in the original proposal you linked:
Physics doesn't have goals, intelligent agents have goals, if they're agents, the gods are acting as NPCs. In effect, you are suggesting I should have to undertake actions at the behest of non-player entity or suffer permanent, stacking debuffs to my character. Binding players to be the servants of NPC agency is antithetical to creating a world defined by player choices and actions.
To enforce this, make the player rez with -5% stats per death, until they complete the mission for the deity...at which time the deity fully restores them. Die 3 times without doing missions and your stats are at 85.7% (100-5%-5%-5%) and you have 3 times the missions to do until you are fully restored.The missions would be related to the goals of your chosen deity...
No, I am saying you should pay them back for the honour of having them restore your soul to your body. They will withhold some of your "lifeforce" until you do. It has nothing to do with working someone elses agenda, it has to do with paying for the service you just used. You could always decide not to repay them...no one will make you do anything you do not want to do.
As for goals and intelligence...Since they are the foundation of your argument, if you want to define them for me, I would be happy to have that discussion.
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Goblin Squad Member
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No, I am saying you should pay them back for the honour of having them restore your soul to your body.
How will you pay them back? It seems perfectly fair to me to say that "completing missions for a deity" is similar enough to "advancing the deity's agenda" to warrant being used interchangeably.
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Goblin Squad Member
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So, if a merchant is evil and I buy goods/services from them, I am furthering their agenda and therefore should take an alignment hit?
If you were a Paladin and you knew they were evil, then I would rule that as associating with evil characters if I were running a PnP game. You wouldn't take an alignment hit, but you would lose Paladin abilities until you atone. For your ordinary non-paladin types, no alignment hit at all.
It probably wont mean anything in PFO.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Actually, I think if I make a lot of direct trades with a Low Reputation character in PFO, my own Reputation is likely to decrease. I think there are a variety of interactions where their Reputation will rub off on me. I think that's as it should be, too.
Absolutely. Reputation should have much more impact a character's options than Alignment.
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Goblin Squad Member
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So, if a merchant is evil and I buy goods/services from them, I am furthering their agenda and therefore should take an alignment hit?Yes, and maybe.
If they were paying you to complete missions for them, I would say certainly.
Padan Fain was an evil SOB in the Wheel of Time series, but if I needed a sword, and he was selling a sword and there was no one else around, I'd buy the sword. Yeah, he was an evil ass, but I needed a sword. I couldn't wait three weeks for another peddler to wander by. Should I take a hit cause the only guy that had a sword nearby for sale was an evil jackass?
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Goblin Squad Member
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what if a kobold kills you, he should take your gear and get XP, it'd just be funny to see that once in a great while npc with epic gear that should be level 2, but has just lived long enough to be as potent as an elder dragon.
It would be kinda cool to see the >DING!< animation on the Kobold and his happy dance while still hovering over your husk prior to release.
Padan Fain was an evil SOB in the Wheel of Time series, but if I needed a sword, and he was selling a sword and there was no one else around, I'd buy the sword. Yeah, he was an evil ass, but I needed a sword. I couldn't wait three weeks for another peddler to wander by. Should I take a hit cause the only guy that had a sword nearby for sale was an evil jackass?So, if a merchant is evil and I buy goods/services from them, I am furthering their agenda and therefore should take an alignment hit?Yes, and maybe.
If they were paying you to complete missions for them, I would say certainly.
Perhaps they could have a set amount of time, where once you pass a specific mark you would begin taking by small alignment bumps when you trade with them. Prior to reaching the mark, no alignment hit. It could be explained as if your around them for that long, things they do and say would give their alignment away. Unless their Int (or maybe Wis?) was higher then yours, then it could be rationed that they see their actions and understand they need to hide it from you. Perhaps the characters Int, or Wis, should factor into how long it takes to recognize their alignment?
Just a thought..
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Goblin Squad Member
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Regardless of what penalty exists, I hope the mechanics make it either difficult or ineffective to immediately return to the battle.
Also, keep in mind that many of the battles that are fought in PFO will have a very significant impact on the losers, so there's already a "meaningful death penalty" of sorts.
A common victory ratio in military miniatures is the general rule of thumb that you do not assault an entrenched position until favored 2:1, and a fortified position until favored 3:1.
It may be that to simulate this effectively the defeated should NOT be delayed in resurrecting, but that the resurrected of the attacker will have to quicktime all the way from their home territory to rejoin the fight whereas the defending settlement can ressurect in the settlement, significantly increasing the effective strength of the defense.
If at any given time a third of the attacker's force is still trying to hoof it back to the battleground it should help balance the odds in favor of a defending settlement significantly.
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Goblin Squad Member
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It would be kinda cool to see the >DING!< animation on the Kobold and his happy dance while still hovering over your husk prior to release....
what if a kobold kills you, he should take your gear and get XP, it'd just be funny to see that once in a great while npc with epic gear that should be level 2, but has just lived long enough to be as potent as an elder dragon.
This just makes me think of the Defenders of the Shard in Asheron's Call. And laugh. Now I've got the mental image of replacing the shard with a kobold, and that just makes it funnier. And we shall call him... Pun-pun.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Padan Fain was an evil SOB in the Wheel of Time series, but if I needed a sword, and he was selling a sword and there was no one else around, I'd buy the sword. Yeah, he was an evil ass, but I needed a sword. I couldn't wait three weeks for another peddler to wander by. Should I take a hit cause the only guy that had a sword nearby for sale was an evil jackass?So, if a merchant is evil and I buy goods/services from them, I am furthering their agenda and therefore should take an alignment hit?Yes, and maybe.
If they were paying you to complete missions for them, I would say certainly.
If you knew he was a darkfriend and was working with the trollocs about to attack your village, yes. If you only know him as the peddler who comes to town every spring, no. When Fain was working as a trader, no one knew who he was. If you don't know, you don't get an alignment hit.
I am still a fan of this death penalty.
Anyone familiar with EQ1's mechanic of using "bind points"? Spellcasters can cast a spell to "bind your soul" to a particular location in the game world, and thereafter, when you die, you respawn at that location (until you have it changed).
Restricting the locations where your soul can be bound can adjust the practical penalty for death.
So, if you want death to be meaningful while fighting over a player-owned keep, then restrict players' bind points to NPC cities which are then guaranteed to be a minimum distance away (because the devs know where all the PC-owned towns can be located).
In EQ1 of course you had the infamous "corpse run". Your body stayed where it was slain, including all the inventory and equipment it had on it. You respawn naked. And yes, this can potentially make the retrieval of your corpse quite difficult if you died at the feet of, say, a raid boss... Of course Necromancers were capable of summoning a targeted character's corpse if they had an expensive spell reagent on hand -- so players buy the gem and give it to a Necromancer who then summons your corpse for you. Usually for a tip unless they're friends with you.
EQ1 also used the XP-loss to "double-whammy" you for death. Not only did you lose your corpse, you lost XP which could potentially cause you to lose a level. Clerics could cast Resurrection spells on your corpse to lessen this XP loss, recovering some (potentially almost all) of the lost XP.
So if you wanted the minimal penalty for death, you needed two different characters working together to lessen the penalty.
To this day, I think this system makes the most sense. MMOs have lost sight of the philosophy behind game design in their "race to the bottom". They're all somehow too afraid of frustrating or inconveniencing their players, even when the players do stupid s$&#.
Consequences. Penalties. Punishments. Without pain, choices have no meaning or merit. Without choices, you aren't actually playing a game, you're just masturbating.
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@Aunty Tony: it sounds like a version of the bind points concept is in the current design, and with some interesting tweaks. Such as, for example, assassins being able to disrupt a victim's bind point so they end up resurrecting further away. If I was Nihimon I'd link to the relevant discussion. Ah well.
To this day, I think this system makes the most sense. MMOs have lost sight of the philosophy behind game design in their "race to the bottom". They're all somehow too afraid of frustrating or inconveniencing their players, even when the players do stupid s+@&.Consequences....
I agree. Easy mode has taken over. And that's fine, some like that sort of game. My problem is that's all that's being made. I'd like a game where reaching a certain level means more then you slogged through raids for a week. Where people look at a experienced character and know that person put out some effort to reach that point.
I played EQ for about 2 1/2 years. Had some fun memorable times there.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I for one think that there should be item destruction upon death. The more deaths you rack up the greater chance of you getting something destroyed. So maybe you start out with a 10% chance to have an item destroyed. If you die again before x amount of time its 20%, then 30%...etc. If a non threaded item gets picked then its gone, maybe able to get scavanged for some raw materials, if a threaded item gets picked there is a 1-3% chance it will get destroyed (say based on tier, T1 is 3%, 2 is 2%, 3 is 1%).
Also remember that you will need threads to bind to locations to get revived. So if you are far out in the wilderness unless you spend some threads to bind nearby you might end up going back to a bind point half way across the world.
Im not sure if XP loss is something that would work well for PfO, only because it seems like PfO is build more on pvp and death is expected unless you never venture out of safe zones. Perhaps though a temp reduction in XP? So you "lose" 100 xp points for 1 hour, so you can pick a skill to not be avalible for that time, if you dont pick the game picks for you. If you die again you lose 200 xp worth of points for 2 hours. Allow this to be offset by some sort of revitalizing drink that is a bit expensive to make. Blue drink allows you to regain 100 xp and red drink allows you to knock off 1 hour of time.
Anyway hardcore can mean many things. Making skill choices that you cannot changed unless there are major mechanical changes in the game. taking 2.5 years to reach the cap in a single archtype. Being one of the only 300 gatherer/crafter. taking the time to farm all the very rare mats for items like a holy avenger.
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Goblin Squad Member
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If its not looted its not destroyed in PfO its on your corpse and you have to run to get it. Someone taking the item from you is not the same as item destruction as the item is still in the game, even though you may not own the item.
I personally think that sandbox games should have item destruction and/or item repair. However if GW thinks they can provide enough demand to keep gatherers/crafters in business using temp items then thats fine. I just dont think there will be that much demand for those.
Item destruction/repair provide demand for goods, thus keeping gatherers/crafters an important part of the game. I understand that GW is going to try to do this through having your items stolen and through temp buff items, but i hesitate to think that will provide enough demand. Im sure at the start of the game it will not be an issue, however 5 years down the line when there has been an abundance of items created what will crafters do?
People will go buy an already existing sword rather than one from a crafter.
It's gonna be interesting how much salvaging will be used and how much of an impact it will have on the economy. I can picture looted weapon/armor being salvaged right away in the field, to avoid encumbrance.
I agree. ... I'd like a game where reaching a certain level means more then you slogged through raids for a week. Where people look at a experienced character and know that person put out some effort to reach that point.
Some would say that "slogging through" raids for a week is a bit of effort. Maybe you just have a different expectation of "how much" effort should be required. Remember, if you have to work at something, you should be getting paid for your efforts or you're a g+&*~$n idiot. Is PFO not a game? Is it not entertainment? I admire and respect EVE, but couldn't find enjoyment in playing it. There's surely a middle ground between Spreadsheets Online and World of Boringfarm.
How to reward effort in a way that allows new players to "catch up" to older accounts is still very much an open problem in game design.
Easy mode has taken over. And that's fine, some like that sort of game. My problem is that's all that's being made.
Publishers are risk averse. It's their money, they want a good promise of a return on it. The only way to give them that is to point to successful examples.
There in a paragraph you've got the entire problem in industry.
But real life has a way of providing solutions: there is a margin within which innovation can be profitable. PFO looks to be aiming specifically at that margin -- that is, target audience. surely 250k-odd people is a small enough margin that PFO can find a place in the world.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Actually, I think if I make a lot of direct trades with a Low Reputation character in PFO, my own Reputation is likely to decrease. I think there are a variety of interactions where their Reputation will rub off on me. I think that's as it should be, too.
I am just curious if PfO is just going to show everyones alignment or are you people really going to have your pocket wizard cast "detect alignment" before every purchase...or are only casters going to be Good in the long-term because everyone else is susceptible to the slow creep to the darkside by association...
As for your question Nihimon...not necessarily. The quests are intended to be a deterrent. The default quest might be to sit in the temple in contemplation for 5 minutes...how does that further an deity's agenda?
I am just curious if PfO is just going to show everyones alignment or are you people really going to have your pocket wizard cast "detect alignment" before every purchase...or are only casters going to be Good in the long-term because everyone else is susceptible to the slow creep to the darkside by association...
Unless it changes, alignment won't be displayed on the character info screen that others have access to. The various means for detecting alignment, spells, items and such will be in demand I imagine. But we also haven access to a characters reputation, which if handled correctly would allow someone to make an educated guess as to a players alignment.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Aunty Tony: it sounds like a version of the bind points concept is in the current design, and with some interesting tweaks. Such as, for example, assassins being able to disrupt a victim's bind point so they end up resurrecting further away. If I was Nihimon I'd link to the relevant discussion. Ah well.
From I Shot a Man in Reno Just To Watch Him Die:
Attacks by an Assassin have a chance to sever a link to one of the target's respawn bind spots, meaning they may have not have access to their preferred respawn point if killed. Targets killed by an Assassin have a dramatically higher chance of this happening. So assassinating someone may take them out of the action for a while as they work their way back to their original location over a longer distance.
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Actually, I think if I make a lot of direct trades with a Low Reputation character in PFO, my own Reputation is likely to decrease. I think there are a variety of interactions where their Reputation will rub off on me. I think that's as it should be, too.I am just curious if PfO is just going to show everyones alignment or are you people really going to have your pocket wizard cast "detect alignment" before every purchase...
First, I was clearly talking about Reputation, not Alignment.
From Screaming for Vengeance:
A player's reputation is clearly visible to others, while alignment is harder to determine at a glance.
As for your question Nihimon...not necessarily. The quests are intended to be a deterrent. The default quest might be to sit in the temple in contemplation for 5 minutes...how does that further an deity's agenda?
If the deity is asking me to do it, then I can assume that it is somehow furthering that deity's agenda, even if I don't exactly understand how.
Is this just the way they worded it, I just noticed this when I read the above post....
From I Shot a Man in Reno Just To Watch Him Die:
Quote:
Attacks by an Assassin have a chance to sever a link to one of the target's respawn bind spots, meaning they may have not have access to their preferred respawn point if killed. Targets killed by an Assassin have a dramatically higher chance of this happening. So assassinating someone may take them out of the action for a while as they work their way back to their original location over a longer distance.
The part I bolded seems to suggest that another type of attack could trigger the bind point thread snap they mention. Or perhaps attacks by other classes could cause this? Or it could just be the way they worded it...?
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Goblin Squad Member
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Actually, I think if I make a lot of direct trades with a Low Reputation character in PFO, my own Reputation is likely to decrease. I think there are a variety of interactions where their Reputation will rub off on me. I think that's as it should be, too.I am just curious if PfO is just going to show everyones alignment or are you people really going to have your pocket wizard cast "detect alignment" before every purchase...First, I was clearly talking about Reputation, not Alignment.
From Screaming for Vengeance:
A player's reputation is clearly visible to others, while alignment is harder to determine at a glance.
Oops, sorry. misread. You dope-a-roped me because you are arguing with a point I made...but I never mentioned reputation. I was discussing alignment. YOu make your point with reputation then when I defend myself with the original topic, alignment...I am no longer relevant. Sneaky Nihimon...
As for your question Nihimon...not necessarily. The quests are intended to be a deterrent. The default quest might be to sit in the temple in contemplation for 5 minutes...how does that further an deity's agenda?If the deity is asking me to do it, then I can assume that it is somehow furthering...
Again, if I, a random wandering salesperson, sell you goods or a service, when I ask you to give me the money you owe me...you will be concerned about furthering my agenda at that point? You can always refuse the service, being rezzed, delete your character and make another.
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From I Shot a Man in Reno Just To Watch Him Die:
Quote:
Attacks by an Assassin have a chance to sever a link to one of the target's respawn bind spots... Targets killed by an Assassin have a dramatically higher chance of this happening.
This doesn't seem that oddly worded to me. It seems very straightforward. If you are attacked by an assassin, you may have your bind point severed. If you are killed by one, expect it to happen.
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Goblin Squad Member
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... when I ask you to give me the money you owe me...you will be concerned about furthering my agenda at that point?
This is why I asked you "How will you pay them back?" That's a very important question. The only answer I have gotten from you is from the suggestion you linked where you suggest you will "pay them back" via "completing missions" for them.
If I give an Evil Salesman 100 coins in exchange for a Dagger, then no, I wouldn't think I'm furthering that Evil Salesman's agenda.
If I deliver a similar Dagger to an Evil Assassin in exchange for my Dagger, it's a little murkier.
If I have to assassinate a local shopkeeper in exchange for my Dagger, then it's pretty clear that I'm not only furthering that Evil Salesman's agenda, but I'm also doing something that clearly should make me slide towards Evil.
So, I ask again, "How will you pay them back?" If the answer is "by completing missions for them", then I think it's reasonable to characterize that as "furthering their agenda".
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Goblin Squad Member
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This doesn't seem that oddly worded to me. It seems very straightforward. If you are attacked by an assassin, you may have your bind point severed. If you are killed by one, expect it to happen.From I Shot a Man in Reno Just To Watch Him Die:
Quote:
Attacks by an Assassin have a chance to sever a link to one of the target's respawn bind spots... Targets killed by an Assassin have a dramatically higher chance of this happening.
You're absolutely right. I was obviously misreading it. It's clear as day.