Design Manager
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I've FAQ'd your post in the hopes they'll take a look at it since I wasn't able to find an official ruling either.
I believe Rage does continue to increase in duration regardless of what class you're leveling in, you just don't gain any of the other class-given benefits associated with it. With the cleric, since it notes that it's any "prepared" spell that is not an orison or domain spell, it would seem that the only stipulation is that it be a prepared spell of the appropriate level. So you couldn't mix this with another spontaneous casting class, but as written wizard spells would be viable burns to power the ability.
You can't drop spells from other class to fuel cure spells and summons. You can drop spells druid spells for summons or cleric spells in order to cure people though.
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Design Manager
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You can't drop spells from other class to fuel cure spells and summons. You can drop spells druid spells for summons or cleric spells in order to cure people though.
His concern was that there does not appear to be anything, anywhere, that specifies this. In the same way that some of the sorcerer bloodline abilities affect all spells of the appropriate type regardless of source(the Aberrant Bloodline arcana for example, which affects any spell of the polymorph subschool), these abilities would seem to share that wording as well. Do you have any links or FAQ's that back up your assertion?
I have always been under the impression that if it is under the heading of the class, it is specific to THAT class. Thus the line, "...The exception to this is class abilities, most of which are
based on the total number of class levels that a character
possesses of that particular class."
For example:
"Mighty Rage (Ex): At 20th level, when a barbarian enters rage, the morale bonus to her Strength and Constitution increases to +8 and the morale bonus on her Will saves increases to +4."
Mighty rage is a class ability. It doesn't specifically say 20 levels of barbarian, but I don't think there is really any other way to read it that makes sense. The same goes for clerics spontaneous casting. It is a cleric ability that affects the characters other cleric ability - spell casting.
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Design Manager
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I have always been under the impression that if it is under the heading of the class, it is specific to THAT class. Thus the line, "...The exception to this is class abilities, most of which are
based on the total number of class levels that a character
possesses of that particular class."For example:
"Mighty Rage (Ex): At 20th level, when a barbarian enters rage, the morale bonus to her Strength and Constitution increases to +8 and the morale bonus on her Will saves increases to +4."Mighty rage is a class ability. It doesn't specifically say 20 levels of barbarian, but I don't think there is really any other way to read it that makes sense. The same goes for clerics spontaneous casting. It is a cleric ability that affects the characters other cleric ability - spell casting.
Yes, but Mighty Rage is a class granted ability, granted by the 20th level of Barbarian, not an ability gained at a lower level that scales or stacks as you level up, so maybe not the best example to use. Your quote on the exception being class abilities might be a solid lead for resolution though, what is the rest of that quote and where did you pull it from?
Your quote on the exception being class abilities might be a solid lead for resolution though, what is the rest of that quote and where did you pull it from?
See original post...
See where you're going with that but, that begs the question.
Is a class feature a class ability?
Yes.
Feature is just a positive word for ability.
Your quote on the exception being class abilities might be a solid lead for resolution though, what is the rest of that quote and where did you pull it from?See original post...
See where you're going with that but, that begs the question.
Is a class feature a class ability?
Yes.
Feature is just a positive word for ability.
But, they have different definitions, similar yet different.
That's why I need an official answer on this. Heck, that's why I posted on the boards, my gaming group has being going in circles on this one.
Kinda matters since I'll be joining Society games soon as a Barbarian / 2H Fighter. If I only get rage per character level that's fine as there's always the extra rage feat. Just don't want to use the feat if I get rage per class level.
You only get additional rage when you take lvs in a class that gives you rage (such as the barbarian), you take the extra rage feat, or you raise your con mod, which must last at least 24 hours before it give you any extra rage (so using bears endurance won't give you any extra rage). If you're still skeptical, tell me why taking lvs in fighter (or just about any other class) should give you additional rage.
See original post. from op:
"At each level after 1st, she can rage for 2 additional rounds."
It does not specify Barbarian level, Just level.
Which is why I need the official ruling. Because no matter what anyone says it just goes right back to that.
Granted they are not always as clear as they should be. But in this case I think the intent is clear. A class ability only applies to that class. If fighters were ment to give you rage they would have the rage ability. Class abilities are based on your lv in that class, not your total character lv (not counting any prestige classes).
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Design Manager
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Ah, sorry Fergie, probably should have paid a little more attention there. Anyways, many abilities specifically call out if they're class specific or character level dependent, but in doing a little retcon of the classes, I've changed my stance a bit here in looking over the wording of the other classes. Allowing the barbarian rage to increase with other levels means that the same argument would lead to classes with one level of bard gaining extra rounds and uses of bardic performance, a one level dip in monk eventually giving you the benefits of the whole two weapon fighting tree, etc.
While devs have chimed in that class features cover all applicable features, even if gained from other classes (specifically in regards to sorcerers and the effects of their bloodline abilities as mentioned earlier) it's pretty clearly not RAI and debatably not RAW for class features like Rage, Flurry, Bardic Performance and others that don't specifically make mention of class level to scale by character level. I'm still on the fence about spontaneous casting working with spells from other classes, but I'm joining the posters in the stance that Rage rounds increase by Barbarian level, not character level.
True, it usually is better staying with 1 class. Sometimes people dip in another class for a couple lvs to gain certain abilities or proficiencies (or bonus feats) from other classes.
The designers want you to stick to a single class and level up in it, rather than multiclassing.
For that reason- things that you get from one class don't level up or gain in power by taking levels in other classes unless they explicitly say so.
things such as clerics channeling, paladin channeling, life oracle channeling- they don't stack.
Rage: if you take levels in aclass that say they stack then they do. Otherwise, they don't. so Barbarian1/ClassX will get you rage as Barb1 not as a total character level.
As a general rule of construction:
If it doesn't explictly say it clearly that abilities derived from two different classes stack then they do not stack or level up with each other.
So no extra fighter feats for being a fighter/barb and no extra barb rage for being a barb/fighter.. Just like sorcs/wizards don't combine for spellcaster level or SR checks and the like.
-S
It means class level, because otherwise level dipping becomes VERY powerful. Say... fighter bonus feats. Paladin smite evil. Bardic performance.
There are a LOT of examples where it makes little sense to read it the other way, because you'd be gaining a ton of benefits for very little class investment.
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Class ability is the same as class feature within the context of the game.
Rage and other class abilities / class features only increase bases on the number of levels in that class. Even when not specifically spelled out in a given class feature, it is the assumed rule.
In fact, if a class ability IS to improve based on the character's total level or hit dice, the ability will specifically state that
I think some people strongly want to read things their way and assign a meaning to words despite the RAI being extremely clear for everyone.
Class features increase in power (or interact with other abilities of the class, as in the case of spontaneous casting) only when you gain levels of the class that granted them.
The only exception being if the ability itself (or an ability of another class/prestige class you gain levels in) specifies that it stacks/increases with other classes who grant a similar (or better, the same) thing.
Or do we want to go so far that a Cleric 1/Wizard 8 would be able to spontaneously cast Cure Critical Wounds by channeling one of its 4th level Wizard spells while she can only cast 1st level Cleric spells?
Take further, Astral. Under that interpretation, a character that is Fighter 1/Wizard1/Cleric 1/Rogue 1/Bard 1 has the spellcasting abilities of a Cleric 5/Wizard 5/Bard 5, 3d6 sneak attack, 3 fighter bonus feats plus two from the wizard side, rogue talents, 3d6 channel energy...why be single classed, if you can be the uber ultimate gestalt instead?
[Edited due to post removal]
Interestingly:
Note that there are a number of effects and prerequisites that rely on a character's level or Hit Dice. Such effects are always based on the total number of levels or Hit Dice a character possesses, not just those from one class. The exception to this is class abilities, most of which are based on the total number of class levels that a character possesses of that particular class.
I challenge anyone to find a core class in the game that has "class abilities". They all have "class features". The way most of us are reading this rule, class ability = class feature. If you do not equate the two, single-level dipping into as many classes as possible gives a character an insane number of "class features", all of which stack, as has been said above.
