Texas Republicans want to make kids dumber


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I wish I was making this up.

2012 Texas Republican Party Platform wrote:
We oppose the teaching of Higher Order Thinking Skills (HOTS) (values clarification), critical thinking skills and similar programs that are simply a relabeling of Outcome-Based Education (OBE) (mastery learning) which focus on behavior modification and have the purpose of challenging the student’s fixed beliefs and undermining parental authority

link


Ah, Texas...


"503 Service Unavailable"

Shadow Lodge

No see they just want the schools to put the right information into the children's heads.


I believe that they're opposed to a specific program called Higher Order Thinking Skills - not the skills themselves.

That said, I have no idea what this program actually teaches and take no position whether or not it's a program worthy of opposition.

The Exchange

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Let me google that for you.


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DM Barcas, if you want to go all Giuliani time on CJ, I won't say anything.


Doodlebug Anklebiter wrote:
DM Barcas, if you want to go all Giuliani time on CJ, I won't say anything.

Giuliani time?

Oh...


I certainly don't agree that H.O.T.S. should be part of an official education. Oh ... you weren't talking about that H.O.T.S. Nevermind.


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pres man wrote:
I certainly don't agree that H.O.T.S. should be part of an official education.

You're a stooge of the plutocracy!


Comrade Anklebiter wrote:
pres man wrote:
I certainly don't agree that H.O.T.S. should be part of an official education.
You're a stooge of the plutocracy!

Nope, just old, LOL.


It's 1978. Danny Bonaduce has just come back from a viewing of Animal House and thinks to himself, how could I make that better?

Playboy bunnies, of course.

But it didn't work. :(


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Animal house was a fine educational film. Delta house used HOTS to solve their problems. The clever "eat me" cake concealed the death car, which disrupted the parade and won the day!

Now that's some critical thinking!


Well duh...

"We oppose teaching people to see through our blatant lies!" is just in their self interests.


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They won't be happy until she's governor.


BigNorseWolf wrote:

Well duh...

"We oppose teaching people to see through our blatant lies!" is just in their self interests.

Yes, but they are willing to tell people that up front now.


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GM Goblin King wrote:
They won't be happy until she's governor.

Ok, so we got Mammy cast for the live action Rise of the Runelords movie, who next?


Caineach wrote:
BigNorseWolf wrote:

Well duh...

"We oppose teaching people to see through our blatant lies!" is just in their self interests.

Yes, but they are willing to tell people that up front now.

They're victims of their own success: they've simply run out of people educated enough to phrase the deception in a subtle fashion.


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Caineach wrote:

I wish I was making this up.

2012 Texas Republican Party Platform wrote:
We oppose the teaching of Higher Order Thinking Skills (HOTS) (values clarification), critical thinking skills and similar programs that are simply a relabeling of Outcome-Based Education (OBE) (mastery learning) which focus on behavior modification and have the purpose of challenging the student’s fixed beliefs and undermining parental authority
link

They are opposed to challenging students' fixed beliefs? Then why have schools? Any baboon can teach rote memorization, and that's all that's left if you get rid of HOTS.

I'm reminded of the first sentence of the orc god Bahgtru's dogma: "Think not clever thoughts."


Samnell wrote:
Any baboon can teach rote memorization

That sounds suspiciously like evolution... quick! get the tar and feathers!


Y'all might want to back up a bit and do some self-study on Outcome Based
Education. It ramped up in the 80's/90's (with both Democratic and Republican supporters) but has taken significant criticism around the world in the last several years. It's a very complex issue, and one that many people take a stand on (see the numerous debates around Goals 2000, No Child Left Behind, etc.).

P.S. I educated myself on the subject as we tried to settle on an educational style for our son. He's been at a private Montessori school for 4 years now (with a 3-month brain-numbing slip into public education in the middle--literally, he lost the ability to read and do math after just 3 months) if that helps inform anyone on my stance...


erian_7 wrote:

Y'all might want to back up a bit and do some self-study on Outcome Based

Education. It ramped up in the 80's/90's (with both Democratic and Republican supporters) but has taken significant criticism around the world in the last several years. It's a very complex issue, and one that many people take a stand on (see the numerous debates around Goals 2000, No Child Left Behind, etc.).

Except HOTS isn't necessarily an extention of OBE. OBE is a way of measuring performance. HOTS is a way of teaching skills that focus on critical thinking and less on memorizing facts. In fact, from what I can tell OBE and HOTS are opposed to eachother on many levels, to the point where HOTS need to specifically controlled for in order to prevent them from being lost by OBE. In fact, one of the most common criticisms I see of No Child Left Behind, the most major national OBE initiative, is its lack of emphasis on HOTS in favor of rote memorization.


Another funny bit: the objection to teaching as behavior modification.

Learning is behavior modification. Seeing behavior change is how we know people have learned stuff. They are literally saying that they want children prevented from learning.


I wouldn't say the two are opposed to one another, although in some implementations they can be contradictory. Getting into an actual discussion about forms of education could actually be a useful conversation. What I'm hoping folks can do is step back and not jump on some catch-phrase 'look, Republicans hate edumacation!" without understanding what that plank actually says. Having reasonable conversation is a good thing. Attacking broad groups of people, especially out of ignorance, is not so useful.

After doing some quick reading outside of reactionary political blogs, it looks like the "critical thinking skills" section of the plank is being called a mistake by the Texas GOP, but they can't fix it until 2014 apparently due to some procedural issues. Now that is dumb...


Refreshingly honest.


In recent elections, polling data is showing that people with a 4 year degree or more are leaning more and more democrat. Maybe if we can prevent kids from qualifying for college, they'll be more likely to vote republican?


If that's the case, then you'd actually agree with the Texas Republicans in opposing HOTS and OBE...from most data, it's more difficult for minorities, people with disabilities, etc. to graduate and thus qualify for college under these styles of education in public schools. That's one of the reasons we went private school--no public implementation of these methods showed as successful.

Please folks. Step back. Understand what you are reading. You are not, at present, showing that Democrats are in some way more enlightened than Republicans. As a pointer, the "values clarification" in parentheses is far more important to the Republican stance as they are focused on parental authority in moral development of children.


erian_7 wrote:

I wouldn't say the two are opposed to one another, although in some implementations they can be contradictory. Getting into an actual discussion about forms of education could actually be a useful conversation. What I'm hoping folks can do is step back and not jump on some catch-phrase 'look, Republicans hate edumacation!" without understanding what that plank actually says. Having reasonable conversation is a good thing. Attacking broad groups of people, especially out of ignorance, is not so useful.

After doing some quick reading outside of reactionary political blogs, it looks like the "critical thinking skills" section of the plank is being called a mistake by the Texas GOP, but they can't fix it until 2014 apparently due to some procedural issues. Now that is dumb...

I did come accross the republican commentary while looking into your last past. My problem with that is HOTS is defined as teaching critical thinking skills, and they are still intentionally misleading the statement by falsely associating the 2 terms.

Also, annother gem from their document

Quote:
We urge that the Voter Rights Act of 1965 codified and updated in 1973 be repealed and not reauthorized.

So removing the laws that try to prevent states from preventing minorities from voting.


Quote:

Knowledge-Based Education – We oppose the teaching of Higher Order Thinking Skills (HOTS) (values clarification), critical thinking skills and similar programs that are simply a relabeling of Outcome-Based Education (OBE) (mastery learning) which focus on behavior modification and have the purpose of challenging the student’s fixed beliefs and undermining parental authority.

Educational Entitlement – We encourage legislation that prohibits enrollment in free public schools of non-citizens unlawfully present in the United States.

Quote:

Voter Rights Act – We urge that the Voter Rights Act of 1965 codified and updated in 1973 be repealed and not reauthorized.

Full platform here

When good people remain silent bad things happen. Lets not confuse some jargon the party picked up with what they clearly mean in context.


Yes, I believe their statement is needlessly complicated and thus loses its actual meaning when most people read it. They don't really even care about HOTS, but about the values-clarification method of teaching moprality. They would have been far better off, in my opinion with a simple "we support parents in their right to teach their children morals" and, if they really wanted to say something about education styles, come up with a completely separate statement for that.

I haven't read the section on the Voter Rights Act, but as a note for any non-Southerners (I'm in Alabama), that law specifically calls out several southern states and imposes requirements that are not applied to other states. It's again an area with a lot of history, discussion, and debate that folks outside the South may not even realize exists.


erian_7 wrote:

If that's the case, then you'd actually agree with the Texas Republicans in opposing HOTS and OBE...from most data, it's more difficult for minorities, people with disabilities, etc. to graduate and thus qualify for college under these styles of education in public schools. That's one of the reasons we went private school--no public implementation of these methods showed as successful.

Please folks. Step back. Understand what you are reading. You are not, at present, showing that Democrats are in some way more enlightened than Republicans. As a pointer, the "values clarification" in parentheses is far more important to the Republican stance as they are focused on parental authority in moral development of children.

I agree with the Texas party opposing OBE, in the way OBE is currently being nationally implemented. Unfortunately, HOTS is something completely different than OBE, and they are saying they are the same thing with a different label. In fact, OBE doesn't do anything remotely like what they are complaining about. And HOTS, which does do what they are complaining about only as an after-effect, is probably the most important thing a student can learn from school.


I think Texas should teach kids to be gay atheist communist Muslims who question authority.

It's what the people want.


erian_7 wrote:
I haven't read the section on the Voter Rights Act, but as a note for any non-Southerners (I'm in Alabama), that law specifically calls out several southern states and imposes requirements that are not applied to other states. It's again an area with a lot of history, discussion, and debate that folks outside the South may not even realize exists.

It does call out some Southern states. It does so in response to historic racial discrimination in voting.

If they want the law repealed, perhaps they should stop discriminating. Several states have been fighting, and I believe some have already lost, lawsuits under the Act based on last year's redistricting.


erian_7 wrote:
Please folks. Step back. Understand what you are reading. You are not, at present, showing that Democrats are in some way more enlightened than Republicans.

Erian, have you read the rest of the platform? It's got every benighted fever-dream the fundies here could cook up. The Texas Republican plank, as a whole, is like an overt demand for something along the lines of the old robber barons being in charge of the Spanish Inquisition*.

Not that the Dems are any better -- they just lie about it more.

* Disclaimer: There are a total of two (2) things on there that don't make my eyes boggle:
1. Call for lobbying reform; and
2. Call for review and removal of parts of the Patriot Act.


Frankly if critical thinking was so much better than just rote memorization, then shouldn't critical thinkers do better on tests that merely test rote memorization? So why be upset about the tests?


Kirth Gersen wrote:
Not that the Dems are any better -- they just lie about it more.

I'm not an American, so my knowledge of the particulars is probably not as good as some you in this thread. That said, I'm wondering what evidence there is to support this claim that the Democrats are seeking similar magnitude "every benighted fever-dream the fundies could cook up". I see the phrase that "both sides are the same", but what I've observed really doesn't seem to support that claim.


pres man wrote:
Frankly if critical thinking was so much better than just rote memorization, then shouldn't critical thinkers do better on tests that merely test rote memorization? So why be upset about the tests?

Tests are typically written to evaluate rote memorization skills and not critical thinking skills. You can design a test to evaluate critical thinking skills, but these aren't typically used for your typical standardized testing.


I'm not advocating support of the Texas platform. I'm advocating that we can all be better people by having reasoned conversation about actual facts rather than throwing labels on one another and letting the attacks fly...Of course, Kirth, you and I always have reasoned conversations when we talk!

thejeff, for the Voting Rights Act do you think that California, Montana, or Vermont are better at handling discrimination than, say, Georgia and Florida, to the point that the latter states require extra scrutiny while the rest of the country does not? That's the core question for a lot of folks on the preclearance issue. I think that is both giving other states too much credit for having no discriminatory folks while failing to acknowledge any progress in the South. I've personally encountered much more discrimination in places like Michigan than I ever encounter in Alabama.


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Caedwyr wrote:
I'm not an American, so my knowledge of the particulars is probably not as good as some you in this thread. That said, I'm wondering what evidence there is to support this claim that the Democrats are seeking similar magnitude "every benighted fever-dream the fundies could cook up". I see the phrase that "both sides are the same", but what I've observed really doesn't seem to support that claim.

Look at Obama's actual policies -- not what he SAID he'd do in speeches, but what he's ACTUALLY encouraged or allowed to pass since he's been in office:

  • The National Defense Authorization Act passes with a lame comment of "Well, I know this makes me a virtual dictator in contravention of the entire Constitution, but I probably won't use most of it." But Guantanamo Bay is still open, and the use of drones by the president to assassinate U.S. citizens goes unremarked.
  • Funneling of tax dollars to banks and other large corporations continues to increase, at the expense of the middle class.
  • Funding for faith-based initiatives continues to increase exponentially, while the war against female reproductive freedom continues to ramp up.
  • The "War on Drugs" -- a transparent ploy to fuel the for-profit prison insustry with more "clients" -- is pushed as relentlessly by Democrats as it ever has been by Republicans: e.g..

    Do I really need to go on?


  • erian_7 wrote:
    thejeff, for the Voting Rights Act do you think that California, Montana, or Vermont are better at handling discrimination than, say, Georgia and Florida, to the point that the latter states require extra scrutiny while the rest of the country does not? That's the core question for a lot of folks on the preclearance issue. I think that is both giving other states too much credit for having no discriminatory folks while failing to acknowledge any progress in the South. I've personally encountered much more discrimination in places like Michigan than I ever encounter in Alabama.

    In voting rights? Yes. Absolutely.

    There is certainly racism everywhere in this country. It takes different forms in different places.

    If I understand correctly, only the preclearance part applies to only the original Southern Jurisdiction. It should be easy to compare states.


    Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

    Aww gee whiz Kirth. Quit givin' em the business.


    Caedwyr wrote:
    pres man wrote:
    Frankly if critical thinking was so much better than just rote memorization, then shouldn't critical thinkers do better on tests that merely test rote memorization? So why be upset about the tests?
    Tests are typically written to evaluate rote memorization skills and not critical thinking skills. You can design a test to evaluate critical thinking skills, but these aren't typically used for your typical standardized testing.

    Right ... but if critical thinking is BETTER than just rote memorization, shouldn't students trained in critical thinking score better on rote memorization tests than students that only have rote memorization training?

    Basically if I learn A and B, and you only learn B, then shouldn't I still do better on a test that only measures B than you, by the fact that I am more knowledgeable (or critical thinking)?


    Just to be clear it was an accident.

    Perhaps they simply didn't apply the critical thinking skills they were supposed to be learning in school... instead copying and pasting something from ALEC?

    Rote versus critical thinking skills exhibit 'A'.

    Spoiler:
    No I do not know that this actually came from ALEC, and yes I am completely making it up... but it would sure be delicious to find out it was and that this stands.


    pres man wrote:

    Right ... but if critical thinking is BETTER than just rote memorization, shouldn't students trained in critical thinking score better on rote memorization tests than students that only have rote memorization training?

    Basically if I learn A and B, and you only learn B, then shouldn't I still do better on a test that only measures B than you, by the fact that I am more knowledgeable (or critical thinking)?

    Anecdotally, you are correct. When I taught high school earth science, rather than teach lists of facts, I always tried to focus on open-ended critical thinking exercises with no obvious "right" answer. Many of the students found it frustrating, but then went on to score near the top of the state (93rd percentile) on the year-end Standards of Learning test.

    Some things, you just have to memorize; but putting together those isolated facts into a working education requires critical thought.


    As a behavior analyst, working in public schools in Indiana, I believe that teaching higher order critical thinking skills is sorely lacking in this state. The teachers are so hamstrung by being forced to teach children to pass standardized tests. One 5th grade science teacher complained to me that he couldn't teach his kids about scientific methodology because it wasn't covered in the standardized tests. So, his kids didn't learn how to apply what they were learning... Amazing.
    On the issue of behavior management and the teaching of morality, it is a silly argument. The problem behaviors identified by educational teams (which must include the parents) in the case of an individual child, are addressed to help the child function more appropriately and efficiently so that they better succeed. What is more moral than that? The worry about parents not controlling the overall moral tenets of their child's education is rediculous. The parents must agree to any behavioral plan that is put in place to help their child. If by behavior management, the Texas GOP means, generalized behavioral modification in the classroom, again there is no issue. Teachers ALL use behavior modification in the classroom. Always have. Example: if a classroom acts poorly, they lose recess. That is a form of behavior management that teaches students that thei behavior influences the consequences that are provided: true operant (negative punishment) behaviorism. Whether I agree or disagree with the approach does not mean I question the "morality" of the intervention or of the desired result (a more managable classroom), It only means I question the effectiveness of the intervention.


    Kirth Gersen wrote:
    Caedwyr wrote:
    I'm not an American, so my knowledge of the particulars is probably not as good as some you in this thread. That said, I'm wondering what evidence there is to support this claim that the Democrats are seeking similar magnitude "every benighted fever-dream the fundies could cook up". I see the phrase that "both sides are the same", but what I've observed really doesn't seem to support that claim.

    Look at Obama's actual policies -- not what he SAID he'd do in speeches, but what he's ACTUALLY encouraged or allowed to pass since he's been in office:

  • The National Defense Authorization Act passes with a lame comment of "Well, I know this makes me a virtual dictator in contravention of the entire Constitution, but I probably won't use most of it." But Guantanamo Bay is still open, and the use of drones by the president to assassinate U.S. citizens goes unremarked.
  • Funneling of tax dollars to banks and other large corporations continues to increase, at the expense of the middle class.
  • Funding for faith-based initiatives continues to increase exponentially, while the war against female reproductive freedom continues to ramp up.
  • The "War on Drugs" -- a transparent ploy to fuel the for-profit prison insustry with more "clients" -- is pushed as relentlessly by Democrats as it ever has been by Republicans: e.g..

    Do I really need to go on?

  • Yes, you should. You stopped short at the why it's panned out that way. That's the tricky part, innit?

    But, by all means, throw up your hands or vote for Ron Paul.


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    boldstar wrote:
    As a behavior analyst, working in public schools in Indiana, I believe that teaching higher order critical thinking skills is sorely lacking in this state. The teachers are so hamstrung by being forced to teach children to pass standardized tests. One 5th grade science teacher complained to me that he couldn't teach his kids about scientific methodology because it wasn't covered in the standardized tests. So, his kids didn't learn how to apply what they were learning... Amazing.

    *facepalm*

    boldstar wrote:
    On the issue of behavior management and the teaching of morality, it is a silly argument. The problem behaviors identified by educational teams (which must include the parents) in the case of an individual child, are addressed to help the child function more appropriately and efficiently so that they better succeed. What is more moral than that? The worry about parents not controlling the overall moral tenets of their child's education is rediculous. The parents must agree to any behavioral plan that is put in place to help their child. If by behavior management, the Texas GOP means, generalized behavioral modification in the classroom, again there is no issue. Teachers ALL use behavior modification in the classroom. Always have. Example: if a classroom acts poorly, they lose recess. That is a form of behavior management that teaches students that thei behavior influences the consequences that are provided: true operant (negative punishment) behaviorism. Whether I agree or disagree with the approach does not mean I question the "morality" of the intervention or of the desired result (a more managable classroom), It only means I question the effectiveness of the intervention.

    That's not what they're opposing. They're opposing the kids finding out that gays are nice people too (heck, maybe even that they exist) and that not everyone agrees with their superior Christian "morals."

    It really seems to boil down to that.


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    Maybe slightly off-point here, but the best thing I ever heard a teacher say was that "It is a child's responsibility to test boundaries and it is our responsibility, as adults, to show them how.". It feels like too many school systems are so politically hamstrung that they can't teach student that it is okay to think and question what they learn.


    boldstar wrote:
    Maybe slightly off-point here, but the best thing I ever heard a teacher say was that "It is a child's responsibility to test boundaries and it is our responsibility, as adults, to show them how.". It feels like too many school systems are so politically hamstrung that they can't teach student that it is okay to think and question what they learn.

    Quite true. The earth is 6000 years old and this country was founded by devout Christians.

    Anything else is a lie! I must not think bad thoughts!

    Paizo Employee Chief Creative Officer, Publisher

    The Seattle International Film Festival featured a documentary on this subject called "The Revisionaries" this year. It's very even-handed, and also very, well, I dunno. I found it really unsettling, but maybe you think it's a great thing.

    Anyway, the movie is very much worth watching regardless of your politics. This is a very, very interesting issue, and this movie does a great job capturing the various sides of the issue, and profiling the various key players involved.

    Here's a link to the trailer.

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