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Let's say a Paladin uses his Detect Evil spell-like ability (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/paladin#TOC-Detect-Evil-Sp-), focusing on a target Commoner. The Commoner has 1 HD, and is Neutral Evil.
The Paladin's Detect Evil Spell-Like ability states "At will, a paladin can use detect evil, as the spell. A paladin can, as a move action, concentrate on a single item or individual within 60 feet and determine if it is evil, learning the strength of its aura as if having studied it for 3 rounds. While focusing on one individual or object, the paladin does not detect evil in any other object or individual within range."
However, according to the actual spell (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/d/detect-evil), creatures with 5 or less HD and are not Outsiders, Undead, [Anti]Paladins, or Clerics will not have an Aura of Evil. However, the spell itself does allow the caster to detect the "Presence or absence of evil" with no reference to auras.
So basically, here's what I want to know. If a Paladin targets a Neutral Evil Level 1 Commoner with 1 HD, does the Paladin see the Commoner is evil or not?
So basically, here's what I want to know. If a Paladin targets a Neutral Evil Level 1 Commoner with 1 HD, does the Paladin see the Commoner is evil or not?
The problem with your question is the Paladin can't target the Commoner. She can Detect Evil, and in the first round she will detect the presence of evil in a 60ft cone. In the second round she can identify the number of evil auras and determine the power of the most potent evil aura present. In the third round she can pinpoint location and power for each aura.
If the Commoner is the only thing in the 60 ft cone, she will be able to identify the Commoner as evil with reasonable certainty. Otherwise, she'll know there's evil afoot, but be unable to pinpoint it.
I think the consensus on this is that it wouldn't be a level 1 ability if it weren't intended to work on CR appropriate foes. The interpretation I've heard most is that the Paladin is able to determine if the target is evil, then determine the strength of their aura. A 1HD commoner would show as evil, no aura.
I don't think sub-6HD creature's who don't have an aura (e.g. are not outsiders, undead, clerics, etc) are meant to register in any way for either the spell or the paladin ability. 1HD Neutral Evil Commoners are just misunderstood, not Nuke-On-Sight :-)
I hit FAQ.
"Hey God, I'm getting attacked. Can I Smite him?"
"...I'm not sure..."
Doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me.
Normal people who are less than the required HD simply do not register as evil. The paladin is not there to destroy ALL evil. He is there to destroy the great evils, like dragons, undead, fiends and other direct servants of pure evil, like clerics and antipaladins (I houserule that his x2 smite works on those too, since they are pure evil).
A lv1 commoner simply isn't "evil enough" to detect. And this is a good thing, in my book. As it ensures that when the paladin DOES detect evil, he knows it is a potent force, removing the "but he could just be a greedy pickpocket child, disillusioned by the world and blah blah blah" in place of "This is a person who is either a force of evil, or someone who has been doing evil long enough to grow strong through evil means" (lv6+).
And you can smite anyone who is evil, does not matter if they detect or not. Just means you have to gamble.
And you can smite anyone who is evil, does not matter if they detect or not. Just means you have to gamble.
So...why would you give this ability at level 1, then? From a design standpoint, that is. Black armor with skulls, spikes, and a Mr. Yuck tabard are more than enough to tell me that the antipaladin is evil. A simple Kn: Religion check (DC 10 or 15) could identify most enemy clerics. A DC 10 Kn: Arcana can tell you about the basic differences between chromatic and metallic dragons (ask your local Arcane caster). You know that virtually anything skeletal, ghostly or rotting is fair game with a DC 10 Kn: Religion, as well.
If the ability isn't functional against humanoids until level 6, why isn't it a level 5 or 6 ability?
Normal people who are less than the required HD simply do not register as evil. The paladin is not there to destroy ALL evil. He is there to destroy the great evils, like dragons, undead, fiends and other direct servants of pure evil, like clerics and antipaladins (I houserule that his x2 smite works on those too, since they are pure evil).
A lv1 commoner simply isn't "evil enough" to detect. And this is a good thing, in my book. As it ensures that when the paladin DOES detect evil, he knows it is a potent force, removing the "but he could just be a greedy pickpocket child, disillusioned by the world and blah blah blah" in place of "This is a person who is either a force of evil, or someone who has been doing evil long enough to grow strong through evil means" (lv6+).
And you can smite anyone who is evil, does not matter if they detect or not. Just means you have to gamble.
+1
I don't think the 1st level commoner has done any truly EVIL acts... nothing evil evough to stain his soul to the point that a paladin would notice.
If he DID do that level of evil... he should have gotten xp for it and would be higher level. ;)
1st level is evil is still easily redemable, and should make the paladin think before entering combat... relying on sense motives and perceptions before targeting.
And you can smite anyone who is evil, does not matter if they detect or not. Just means you have to gamble.So...why would you give this ability at level 1, then? From a design standpoint, that is. Black armor with skulls, spikes, and a Mr. Yuck tabard are more than enough to tell me that the antipaladin is evil. A simple Kn: Religion check (DC 10 or 15) could identify most enemy clerics. A DC 10 Kn: Arcana can tell you about the basic differences between chromatic and metallic dragons (ask your local Arcane caster). You know that virtually anything skeletal, ghostly or rotting is fair game with a DC 10 Kn: Religion, as well.
If the ability isn't functional against humanoids until level 6, why isn't it a level 5 or 6 ability?
Because evil temples, swords, and items still detect... So it still has SOME use ;)
And you can smite anyone who is evil, does not matter if they detect or not. Just means you have to gamble.So...why would you give this ability at level 1, then? From a design standpoint, that is. Black armor with skulls, spikes, and a Mr. Yuck tabard are more than enough to tell me that the antipaladin is evil. A simple Kn: Religion check (DC 10 or 15) could identify most enemy clerics. A DC 10 Kn: Arcana can tell you about the basic differences between chromatic and metallic dragons (ask your local Arcane caster). You know that virtually anything skeletal, ghostly or rotting is fair game with a DC 10 Kn: Religion, as well.
If the ability isn't functional against humanoids until level 6, why isn't it a level 5 or 6 ability?
The antipaladin, like the evil cleric, has an aura of evil from lv1. And you can encounter these, as well as undead, on lv1, and pick them out from the regular cronies that wear black and are painted to honor their dark gods.
I can think of a dozen situations where being able to detect the real evil is a good thing to have from early on.
I'll spend a move action looking at this guy...nope, not evil...
Next move action...crap, still not evil...
Next move action...man, he's not evil either!
Another move action...AHHHHHHH MY FACE!
Paladins don't get the cone from the spell. They target individuals or objects.
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Paladins don't get the cone from the spell. They target individuals or objects.
Just where did you get that from?
At will, a paladin can use detect evil, as the spell. A paladin can, as a move action, concentrate on a single item or individual within 60 feet and determine if it is evil, learning the strength of its aura as if having studied it for 3 rounds. While focusing on one individual or object, the paladin does not detect evil in any other object or individual within range.
Everything past the first sentence indicates an option the Pally has. He needn't narrow his ability down to a single target if he doesn't want to.
As a side note: An evil Cleric (or even an Antipaladin) does not register from Level 1. A Cleric (or such) of an evil deity does.
So, a third level CE cleric of Gorum (or the occasional low-level Calistrian Antipaladin) will not register.
Your friendly LN Asmodean priest, however, will ping evil from level 1 straight.
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You learn the strength of its aura, which is that it doesn't have any kind of aura of evil. If you want to see if the creature has an evil alignment and aren't willing to say investigate its intents and actions, perhaps through role-playing and use of the sense motive skill, you could always try to smite it and see if it dies more quickly.
I agree with Midnight Angel. The paladin has detect evil at will and the additional option to focus and quickly scan a targets aura.
Detect evil will work fine to point out there IS evil SOMEWHERE in the presence of an evil commoner, even though the commoner has no evil aura until fifth level.
1st Round: Presence or absence of evil.
I tire of people trying to keep the paladin from using his gods's given abilities to find and SMITE evil. A paladin should not be expected to suffer the wicked to live.
A paladin should not be expected to suffer the wicked to live.
Careful with that. In 3.5, St. Cuthbert (whose motto was something akin to 'Do not suffer the wicked to live') was LN instead of LG for a reason...
This having been said, in my (not so) humble opinion, your evil first level commoner simply is not evil enough to even register as 'evil in the area'. No aura equals no reaction from the spell, period.
Plus, if you need to go smiting on a lowly commoner, you are doing something wrong.
A lv1 commoner simply isn't "evil enough" to detect.
That's the biggest load of dung I've ever heard.
Mort, the lv 6 accountant who cheats on his taxes and kicks puppies is super evil, but Bob the lv 2 serial killer who has a coat made out of human flesh just isn't that evil.
Mort, the lv 6 accountant who cheats on his taxes and kicks puppies is super evil
Actually, he's just faintly evil, as far as his evil aura is concerned.
Bob the lv 2 serial killer who has a coat made out of human flesh just isn't that evil.
See? This is what you get when using a system where the HD (aka level) of a creature are the be-all-and-end-all to categorize everything.
Mechanically, being evil is a completely binary entry, and will detect if you are powerful enough. Just how evil you are is utterly irrelevant in comparison to your HD.
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Why is the douchebag paladin trying to smite a 1st level commoner? Go find someone worth smiting, not some dude that consistantly cheats at cards. Having an Evil alignment isn't a crime. If your paladin goes around killing everyone that pings as evil, he isn't a champion of good, he's a g+&*+#n serial killer. And he's also seriously compromising the "Lawful" portion of his alignment.
Detect evil wont pick up the NE Commoner.
Sorry, but it just doesn't - the commoner doesn't have an Aura to detect.
The Paladin is free to use the rest of his abilities to work out the nature of the commoner though; through observation of deed and possibly the sense motive skill, but in this case his '100% proof detector' isn't going to help him.
Detect Evil and Detect Magic are already cheezy enough Radar Systems as is.
Why is the douchebag paladin trying to smite a 1st level commoner? Go find someone worth smiting, not some dude that consistantly cheats at cards. Having an Evil alignment isn't a crime. If your paladin goes around killing everyone that pings as evil, he isn't a champion of good, he's a g#~$@%n serial killer. And he's also seriously compromising the "Lawful" portion of his alignment.
*laughs* Like I wrote...
Plus, if you need to go smiting on a lowly commoner, you are doing something wrong.
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However...Detect evil wont pick up the NE Commoner.
Actually, if said NE Commoner happens to be level 5 or above, it will. *ducks for cover*
You want to determine whether someone is evil? Get your hands on some means to use See Alignment!
Actually, if said NE Commoner happens to be level 5 or above, it will. *ducks for cover*
No ducks required, I agree with you, as its RAW :)
A lv1 commoner simply isn't "evil enough" to detect.That's the biggest load of dung I've ever heard.
Mort, the lv 6 accountant who cheats on his taxes and kicks puppies is super evil, but Bob the lv 2 serial killer who has a coat made out of human flesh just isn't that evil.
First: Cheating on taxes is not evil.
Second: How did the accountant get to lv6 by kicking puppies?And how does Bob remain a successful serial killer at lv2?
Why is the douchebag paladin trying to smite a 1st level commoner? Go find someone worth smiting, not some dude that consistantly cheats at cards. Having an Evil alignment isn't a crime. If your paladin goes around killing everyone that pings as evil, he isn't a champion of good, he's a g+~!~!n serial killer. And he's also seriously compromising the "Lawful" portion of his alignment.
Fine. Make that Bob the 4th lv Fighter with a whole wardrobe now. Exact same situation. And if a 1st level Pally wants a prayer of winning, he has to smite.
A lv1 commoner simply isn't "evil enough" to detect.That's the biggest load of dung I've ever heard.
Mort, the lv 6 accountant who cheats on his taxes and kicks puppies is super evil, but Bob the lv 2 serial killer who has a coat made out of human flesh just isn't that evil.
First: Cheating on taxes is not evil.
Second: How did the accountant get to lv6 by kicking puppies?
Good point. At 6th level, Mort is the premiere accountant of the land. That means Detect Evil won't work on 95% of the population.
And how does Bob remain a successful serial killer at lv2?
What level do you think most cops are?
Besides everyone was lv 2 some time. Must successful serial killers start out as insurance salesmen until they hit lv 6?
You'd also be able to tell if Terry the Fighter is evil even though he is a level 1 Tiefling disguised as a human
I am not seeing a rules, or balance issue here.
What am I missing?
"At will, a paladin can use detect evil, as the spell.
A paladin can, as a move action, concentrate on a single item or individual within 60 feet and determine if it is evil, learning the strength of its aura as if having studied it for 3 rounds."Does this mean:
(a) The paladin can cast 'detect evil' at will. A paladin can also, as a move action, determine if an individual within 60 feet is evil.
Or:
(b) A paladin has an ability resembling Detect Evil, except it only works on a single item or individual at a time, and takes a move action instead of 3 rounds.
Or something else?
It'd be great if maybe an employee or someone could answer this... I really just want the answer for Pathfinder Society games which always play RAW.The power clearly states that there is no aura if under level 5 for a normal person of the non undead or Outsider or cleric/paladin/antipaladin type.
So it does.
The spell also states:
You can sense the presence of evil. The amount of information revealed depends on how long you study a particular area or subject.
1st Round: Presence or absence of evil.
Presence of absence of "evil", not "evil auras." So this will detect the presence of evil characters regardless of level.
Also, as the OP pointed out, the Paladin power does not specify "evil aura" for its move action ability, so it also will tell if a creature is evil regardless of level.
Fine. Make that Bob the 4th lv Fighter with a whole wardrobe now. Exact same situation. And if a 1st level Pally wants a prayer of winning, he has to smite.
Well, if Pally finds himself in a melee fight with Bob the Serial Killer who wears a coat of human flesh, I think the Pally is in his right to try out smiting, without anyone accusing him of metagaming...
And how does Bob remain a successful serial killer at lv2?
Actually the correct question is: How does Bob, a succesful serial killer, remain at lvl 2?
You can sense the presence of evil. The amount of information revealed depends on how long you study a particular area or subject.
1st Round: Presence or absence of evil.
Presence of absence of "evil", not "evil auras." So this will detect the presence of evil characters regardless of level.
Also, as the OP pointed out, the Paladin power does not specify "evil aura" for its move action ability, so it also will tell if a creature is evil regardless of level.
Well, if we can expect any kind of consistancy in the rules, it is very likely that the 1st round ability (as well as the paladin specials) refer to the rest of the spell.
"Presence or absense of evil" meaning "presence or absense of evil auras, which is the kind of evil that this spell detects".
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You can sense the presence of evil. The amount of information revealed depends on how long you study a particular area or subject.
1st Round: Presence or absence of evil.
Presence of absence of "evil", not "evil auras." So this will detect the presence of evil characters regardless of level.
Also, as the OP pointed out, the Paladin power does not specify "evil aura" for its move action ability, so it also will tell if a creature is evil regardless of level.
Well, if we can expect any kind of consistancy in the rules, it is very likely that the 1st round ability (as well as the paladin specials) refer to the rest of the spell.
"Presence or absense of evil" meaning "presence or absense of evil auras, which is the kind of evil that this spell detects".
+1
That is exactly how I interpret it. The detection of evil is the "Aura" so under 5th no aura no detection, seems pretty simple.
The paladin can then rely on
sense motive
the player roleplay the scene
to find that bobs action show him to be a danger to society
I have a cleric of asmodeus in PFS, its always quite fun to baith the paladin as i glowlike a beacon of darkness....and then point out its the inquisitor and oracle of asmodeus he should be looking out for as our master has blessed then with no aura!!!
roll of PF2 when the rules get dumped and we start agin from scratch. different thread?
HMM. re-reading the RAW does it mean you can be detected as evil, but have no aura? interesting, never read it that way before?
You can sense the presence of evil. The amount of information revealed depends on how long you study a particular area or subject.
1st Round: Presence or absence of evil.
Presence of absence of "evil", not "evil auras." So this will detect the presence of evil characters regardless of level.
Also, as the OP pointed out, the Paladin power does not specify "evil aura" for its move action ability, so it also will tell if a creature is evil regardless of level.
Well, if we can expect any kind of consistancy in the rules, it is very likely that the 1st round ability (as well as the paladin specials) refer to the rest of the spell.
"Presence or absense of evil" meaning "presence or absense of evil auras, which is the kind of evil that this spell detects".
You can sense the presence of evil. The amount of information revealed depends on how long you study a particular area or subject.
The spell allows you to sense the presence of evil. period.
If creatures without evil auras are not evil, then a Paladin cannot smite them.
What should be consider as well, is that this has been changed from 3.5 to Pathfinder.
In 3.5 every evil creature had a aura of evil (HD 1-10 = faint aura).
Since the part about a minimum HD was added in Pathfinder, it seem deliberate that creatures below it should not detect by the spell in any way.
seems pretty simple.
Unless you are set on trying to read slected portions of the description in isolation to 'selectively interpret' as opposed to reading the full description which is rather clear :P
If we accepted for a moment that it simply detected the presence or lack of evil in the first round, imagine the confusion for the Paladin when he either continued to scan the area for the number of Auras or simply targetted the villager.
A lone villager stands next to the well, you swear he was looking at a puppy funny.
OK I Detect Evil on the Area.
OK you know there is Evil there.
Sweet I concentrate another round, how many Auras?
None.
So whats Evil in the area?
You don't actually know, but there's some there, you just can't find any for love nor money.
OK I Detect Evil on the Area.
OK you know there is Evil there.
Cool, I target the guy, how bad is his Evil Aura?
Not at all.
But he's the only person there?
Yup
But he has no Evil aura at all?
Nope.
Nothing?
Nada.
Hilarity ensues.
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I tire of people trying to keep the paladin from using his gods's given abilities to find and SMITE evil. A paladin should not be expected to suffer the wicked to live.
The Paladin that slaughters a non-agressivie commoner on the basis of "He detected as evil" is very quickly going be a non-paladin and an outlaw.
1. That LE merchant may have been an $%&&, but he never broke the law. Not his fault the orphanage fell behind on rent. He followed due legal process.
2. You are now guilty of murdering a law abiding and respected businessman in cold blood.
Simply put the Pathfinder detect evil does not detect evil of low power, the 3.5 one detects evil of any power. It's a deliberate and unambiguous change that Pathfinder made for various reasons that has various ripple effects.
Caught me by surprise being a 2nd ed refugee, was ALL back then too!
But was also a 1st Level spell for most people and actually involved having to select and cast a spell as opposed to an at will Orison.
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seems pretty simple.Unless you are set on trying to read slected portions of the description in isolation to 'selectively interpret' as opposed to reading the full description which is rather clear :P
If we accepted for a moment that it simply detected the presence or lack of evil in the first round, imagine the confusion for the Paladin when he either continued to scan the area for the number of Auras or simply targetted the villager.
A lone villager stands next to the well, you swear he was looking at a puppy funny.
OK I Detect Evil on the Area.
OK you know there is Evil there.
Sweet I concentrate another round, how many Auras?
None.
So whats Evil in the area?
You don't actually know, but there's some there, you just can't find any for love nor money.OK I Detect Evil on the Area.
OK you know there is Evil there.
Cool, I target the guy, how bad is his Evil Aura?
Not at all.
But he's the only person there?
Yup
But he has no Evil aura at all?
Nope.
Nothing?
Nada.Hilarity ensues.
I read the entire description, we just interpret it differently.
I am pretty sure the detect the evil in the area means evil auras.So if they have no aura there is no evil in the area.
Once again, it seems rather simple and to the point.
seems pretty simple.Unless you are set on trying to read slected portions of the description in isolation to 'selectively interpret' as opposed to reading the full description which is rather clear :P
If we accepted for a moment that it simply detected the presence or lack of evil in the first round, imagine the confusion for the Paladin when he either continued to scan the area for the number of Auras or simply targetted the villager.
A lone villager stands next to the well, you swear he was looking at a puppy funny.
OK I Detect Evil on the Area.
OK you know there is Evil there.
Sweet I concentrate another round, how many Auras?
None.
So whats Evil in the area?
You don't actually know, but there's some there, you just can't find any for love nor money.OK I Detect Evil on the Area.
OK you know there is Evil there.
Cool, I target the guy, how bad is his Evil Aura?
Not at all.
But he's the only person there?
Yup
But he has no Evil aura at all?
Nope.
Nothing?
Nada.Hilarity ensues.
Equally confusing is the Ex-Cleric who is eating babies. Not only does he not ping evil, he pings good.
The exception of course being the baby eating Assimar, who will ping moderately evil due to his celestial heritage.
But was also a 1st Level spell for most people and actually involved having to select and cast a spell as opposed to an at will Orison.
Detect evil still is 1st level spell. It's just that Paladins and Inquisitors get it as a spell-like ability usable at will.
Equally confusing is the Ex-Cleric who is eating babies. Not only does he not ping evil, he pings good.
Well actually he will not ping at all. As an ex-cleric he has lost his class features, Aura being one of them...
Well actually he will not ping at all. As an ex-cleric he has lost his class features, Aura being one of them...
Equally confusing is the Ex-Cleric who is eating babies. Not only does he not ping evil, he pings good.
Sorry, I should have specified recently Ex-Cleric. His good aura will linger for 1d6 minutes.