Hello everyone, I have been trying to make a legal build using the white haired witch hair + the prehensile hair but I've been running into difficulties.
First of all the hair isn't actually a hand so by the FAQ ruling you would need natural spell combat to use it.
Secondly I don't see how you could gain iterative attacks with it since it's a natural attack.
Last but not least I think that the white haired hair + prehensile hair is shady at best, and I'm not sure it would hold up in, say, a PFS game.
Ok, I'm not seeing why this hex would get iterative attacks with the hair at full BAB. Natural attacks don't normally get iterative attacks. What am I missing?
Prehensile Hair: I don't like the standard action to activate but this is a reach attack using your best ability score on a class that is wedded to one handed weapons. It is effectively an extra 'hand' that can hold a wand (so can a familiar though). Would be green but for the fact it can also get you out of trouble when tied up. When was the last time the enemy shaved your head/eyebrows when you were captured? The gravy is it's a PRIMARY NATURAL ATTACK so all your iterative attacks are at FULL BAB.They wouldn't. Anyone allowing iterative attacks with a primary natural attack at full BAB is applying the rule incorrectly. That is not how it works for any creature in the game because that is not how the rule works.
I made a hexcrafter magus to use as a arcanist's bodyguard.
What I like about the Hexcrafter:
The Evil Eye Hex used to set up the Arcanist save or suck/die spells is a nasty combination. One round of -2 to -4 on saves at a minimum followed up with an Arcanist boosted spell is going to be hard for any creature or class to save against, especially once the arcanist has Persistent Spell. It's a great combination for leadership for a caster.
The flight hex provides superior mobility and its usability in minutes per day is superior to the fly spell.
Hexes provide a low cost resource for constant use to preserve spells.
Brand gives you a cantrip to use with Spell Combat without having to take Close Range. It preserves a Magus Arcana at early levels, though you still might want to take this to use Disintegrate at higher levels.
I don't like the elf choice. -2 Con for a character that often engages in melee doesn't seem like a great choice. The three extra Magus Arcana seem like a nice boost. The reality is that action economy and a party environment will limit the number of hexes you will use. You might as well keep a tighter focus and take the extra hit points and fort save.
So that means you could get a maximum of 2 attacks per round even when hasted (3 with spellstrike) , not counting aoos, which seems a bit lackluster at higher levels. Am I missing something?
I've actually read the natural attack part of the prd and it doesn't say per se that you don't get iterative natural attacks if you've only got one.
The game is not going to account for every possibility. So you have to read the rules and apply it as intended:
1. No creature gets iterative attacks with natural weapons. Not even big 20 or 30 hit dice dragons with full BAB.
2. In this case I would allow you to take iterative attacks with your hair as though you were using a manufactured weapon if that is what you wanted to do.
As the rules go, iterative attacks and natural weapons do not mix.
The hair as weapon is a special circumstance that would take some figuring out by your DM like a judge deciding an unprecedented case using like cases.
Seems like we have some discerning readers here sniffing out some cheese. I too have doubts as to the pfs legality of this hex build.
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Although I know it has nothing to do with your thread I must say I was utterly confused reading your title. I thought you were implying that the guide was going to show me how to play a hexcrafter as a Strength based Ranger.
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Hello everyone, I have been trying to make a legal build using the white haired witch hair + the prehensile hair but I've been running into difficulties.
First of all the hair isn't actually a hand so by the FAQ ruling you would need natural spell combat to use it.
Secondly I don't see how you could gain iterative attacks with it since it's a natural attack.
Last but not least I think that the white haired hair + prehensile hair is shady at best, and I'm not sure it would hold up in, say, a PFS game.
You've misread the FAQ ruling on spellcombat. It doesn't say it has to be a hand it says it must be associated with that hand. The prehensile hair hex is called out as functioning like a hand and for all intents and purposes. We've even quoted where the devs have stated the hair hex is a valid means for spellcombat.
Also this is a reach build, and like all reach builds you focus on AoO's not iterative attacks. 10' or greater reach lets you control a huge amount of the battlefield giving you multiple AoO's every round doing massive amounts of damage or multiple combat maneuvers.
This is a strategic build not one where you stand there whacking at a target like you're trying to cut down a tree.
That makes more sense.
I've got another question, how does the melee transmogrift work early game exactly?
I have difficulties seeing why half elf is a good option for this build (I assume half orc is for the bite attack? )
How could a half elf get 3 attacks at level 4?
I've got another question, how does the melee transmogrift work early game exactly?
I have difficulties seeing why half elf is a good option for this build (I assume half orc is for the bite attack? )
How could a half elf get 3 attacks at level 4?
As stated in the guide, 1/2 Elf has a floating stat bonus (STR is where you want it), 1/2 orc has a STR bonus. I'm not even sure the guide mentions taking the bite attack as an orc as it would take one of your traits or feats to get. The STR bonus is what you are after with both (or Tiefling if you can get the alternate stat array, again as mentioned in the guide).
Shocking grasp & frostbite for the first 7 levels. Rimed Frostbite for when you will be killing multiple "little" guys as you have multiple uses of it. Shocking grasp for when you want to drop something fast (big hits). When you get Enforcer, Rimed Frostbites will entangle and debuff the opponents.
At 4th level, you can open with Slumber before closing into combat. If it works, at worst it wastes another of the opponents actions to wake them, at best free kill.
At 6th level, Misfortune everything you might want to slumber or that will possibly get a saving throw versus one of you/your ally's follow up attacks. And you can fly.
7th level is when you get the first Monstrous Physique spell. Gargoyle is mentioned. Your BAB allows for 2 attacks with a manufactured weapon and you can use your natural attacks as secondary for 2 more additional attacks (totaling 4 attacks).
Getting 3 attacks at 4th level, would probably be using Alter Self into some humanoid shape that grants 2 claws and a bite. You'd hold your sword in one hand(losing the claw) and you'd be able to use the second claw and bite as secondary attacks.
Or the 2nd build has Hex Magus: Prehensile Hair at 4th, Alter self into a shape that has 2 claw attacks, grow your hair for a 3rd natural attack. 3 attacks at 4th.
Both builds require finding shapes that give you access to multiple natural attacks, basically that is the "trick" to it.
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The reason that Half-Elf and Half-Orc are the best choices for the transmog build (the 2nd one not the first) is strictly for the arcana. Half-elf racial gets you several free arcana's while the half-orc gives you extra arcane pool points. That's really the only thing that puts them at the top of the list.
As written in the guide a properly played Transmorgifist should spend as much time as possible in a shape different then his own and make sure it's a form that gives natural attacks.
Build #2 is all about number of attacks, we don't really care about the amount of damage those attacks do. The goal is to deliver as many charges from your touch spells as you can each round since that is where the lions share of your damage comes from.
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Hi All,
Big thanks to STR Ranger and Mathwei for such great guides. They are such inspirations. I’m very new to pathfinder and all the rules are a little new and foggy. I have a few questions about some of the fundamental of the Hexcrafter Magus guide. I’ve spent a lot of time trying to research some of this but have still not been able to wrap my head around a few things. The questions I have will be simple no-brainers to most of you so please forgive me, like I said I’m a newb. Thanks in advance.
1. Magical Lineage + frostbite+Rime combo:
At the end of the day what level of spell does frost bite end up being a -- 0 level cantrip or a 1st level spell?
2. Wayang spellhunter + Shocking grasp. Same question what level does the spell end up being? 0 level cantrip?
The rules on metamagic alteration state you can never reduce a spell below it's normal casting level. So no matter what you do a 1st level spell will go no lower than 1st level.
3. Frostbite+Rime+Enforcer
If I hit an opponent and make my intimidate roll, does that mean my opponent has the following debuff:
-6 on Dex ( from -4 entangle, -2 fatigue)
-2 on Str (from -2 fatigue)
-4 on attack rolls (-2 entangle, -2 from shaken)If I hit the person a second time and make my intimidate roll does it have a cumulative affect meaning the person is now at a -12 on Dex, -4 on str, -8 on attack rolls? And it increases on every hit?
Same type effects do not stack so you can only suffer the effect once. The only exception is the shaken but that has special rules stating extra uses extend the duration not the penalty.
4. At level 4 the magus can cast alter self. So I turn into a troglodyte. Troglodytes gets 3 natural attacks. I’m holding my sword.
-I get 1 sword attack at full BAB +3
-I get one claw attack at -5 (because it is considered a secondary attack)
-I get one bite attack at -5 (Because it is considered a secondary attack)
Is that correct? Are the secondary attacks -5 or are they -5 from your BAB score (which is 3) which would make them -2? So when you roll the d20 do I subtract 5 or 2 from the total?
First, put the sword away. using it at the same time as the claws is a net loss of damage. Second you are mostly correct but the secondary penalties are a flat -5 from your normal attack bonus.
5. Similar scenario, but I cast a spell. So I’m in combat as a troglodyte. Troglodytes gets 3 natural attacks. I’m holding my sword. I cast a spell using the spellcombat magus feat and then I spell strike. So my attacks would look like this.
1 normal sword attack at +1 BAB (-2 penalty from using spell combat)
1 spellstrike sword attack at a +1 BAB(-2 penalty from using spell combat)
1 claw attack at a -7 (-2 penalty from using spell combat, -5 penalty from being a secondary weapon)
1 bite attack at a -7 (-2 penalty from using spell combat, -5 penalty from being a secondary weapon)Thanks again for all the help and explanations.
Correct but as you can see it's far more efficient to get rid of the sword attack completely from this routine so you will look like this:
1 normal claw attack at +2 (-2 penalty from using spell combat, +1 strength boost from Alter Self)1 spellstrike claw attack at a +2 (-2 penalty from using spell combat+1 strength boost from Alter Self)
1 claw attack at a +2 (-2 penalty from using spell combat+1 strength boost from Alter Self)
1 bite attack at a +2 (-2 penalty from using spell combat+1 strength boost from Alter Self)
Doing it this way massively increases your chance to hit and inflict more damage.
Do not forget that secondary attacks also drop your strength bonus to damage by 50%.
Mixing natural attacks and iterative attacks is usually just a bad idea UNLESS you have a source of high static damage to offset the strength loss.
Other than a circlet of persuasion, what other items are good for increasing ones intimidate skill seeing how is going to start with a negative in charisma!
Didn't see it mentioned already on this thread, but the bruising intellect trait allows you to apply intelligence instead of charisma to your intimidate skill. Kind of a must have for a magus planning on using the enforcer feat.
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Other than a circlet of persuasion, what other items are good for increasing ones intimidate skill seeing how is going to start with a negative in charisma!Didn't see it mentioned already on this thread, but the bruising intellect trait allows you to apply intelligence instead of charisma to your intimidate skill. Kind of a must have for a magus planning on using the enforcer feat.
Just remember that Bruising Intellect and circlets of persuasion are incompatible.
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Hey guys another question. So using the above example, when I'm in troglodyte form with two claws and a bite, if i use a point for my arcane pool to add a +1 enhancement to my weapon what gets the +1. Just one claw, or both claws because they are the same type of weapon? Both claws and the bite because they are all natural weapons?
I'm a little confused because it looks like the rules say you can only enhance one weapon at a time.
Thanks again for your help
Yup, just 1 of your natural attacks. It's not a big deal since you will be using arcane accuracy/accurate strike to make sure your attacks hit and an Amulet of Mighty Fists to add the extra's.
Sorry to be so dense, but I want to make sure I'm doing this right. When you say 1 nature attack do you mean one type of natural attack or just one natural attack. Meaning if I select the claws to be enhanced with my arcane pool does that mean just one claw ( say the left claw) is enhanced for a the duration or both claws are enhanced for the duration because they are the same type of natural weapon.
Same example at higher level with the calikang would the arcane pool enhance just one arm or all six
Thanks again.
A single claw would gain the benefit.
You should consider buying first level pearls of power.
For 1000g, you will be able to cast one more first level spell, and you can buy as many as you want, 2-3 seems like a good number to me.
Glad to see this still being used. I have pretty much stopped gaming, but do check back when I find a quiet moment...
Stopped gaming? What happened?
So maybe it is explained in an earlier post and I didn't find it, or maybe i'm using wands wrong, but the guide talks a lot about getting a farie dragon and having it use a wand of ill omen without having to use UMD. But ill omen is a witch spell, and the faire dragon is a sorcerer, so it doesn't have that spell, so it still has to use UMD correct?
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So maybe it is explained in an earlier post and I didn't find it, or maybe i'm using wands wrong, but the guide talks a lot about getting a farie dragon and having it use a wand of ill omen without having to use UMD. But ill omen is a witch spell, and the faire dragon is a sorcerer, so it doesn't have that spell, so it still has to use UMD correct?
Ill Omen is also on the Sorceror/Wizard spell list so the Faierie Dragon can use it freely (it casts as a sorceror).
You wouldn't happen to have a book and page number that says that, or a link to an official paizo listing online would you? I can't officially find it in my books, and my GM will want proof that it is before he lets me user this.
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Ill Omen is also on the Sorceror/Wizard spell list so the Faierie Dragon can use it freely (it casts as a sorceror).So maybe it is explained in an earlier post and I didn't find it, or maybe i'm using wands wrong, but the guide talks a lot about getting a farie dragon and having it use a wand of ill omen without having to use UMD. But ill omen is a witch spell, and the faire dragon is a sorcerer, so it doesn't have that spell, so it still has to use UMD correct?
Not according to the PRD.
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Not according to the PRD.Ill Omen is also on the Sorceror/Wizard spell list so the Faierie Dragon can use it freely (it casts as a sorceror).So maybe it is explained in an earlier post and I didn't find it, or maybe i'm using wands wrong, but the guide talks a lot about getting a farie dragon and having it use a wand of ill omen without having to use UMD. But ill omen is a witch spell, and the faire dragon is a sorcerer, so it doesn't have that spell, so it still has to use UMD correct?
True, is what I get for not pulling out the books before answering.
now I can say I never endorse that idea so don't look at me. :)
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To be clear. Does the white-haired witch archetype's hair stack with Prehensile hair? Will your reach attack be considered secondary and not benefit from WHW bonuses like the free grapple check and use of constrict?
It doesn't really matter.
Worst thing that happens is you don't get your grapple until the second attack in a full attack or you have to take a 5' step to start the combat. That's it, whether they stack or not is a non issue.
I was looking over some spell combinations.
I'm having trouble picking many hexes. Generally the kill rate is so fast that wasting a standard action hexing seems like a poor use of my actions. I'm not sure I want to pick up too many effect hexes. I'm grouped with an Arcanist and a Bloodrager. They are both quite effective at bringing the hammer.
I'm doing a frostbite and Rime Spell build. That will require a commitment to a single spell active for a few rounds which would reduce the use of Spell Combat and the extra attack. So I'm thinking of using haste more often.
I'm also thinking of focusing on the tactical acumen spell. This spell with the Flight Hex can give a hefty to hit bonus that stacks with heroism once I pick it up with Spell Blending.
I'm also thinking of focusing on vampiric touch with Empower Spell (which with the new ruling can be used with frostbite).
I'll call this my Icy Vampire Hexcrafter build. I'm going to give it a shot and see how it works. I'll update the build and its effectiveness as I build it. Should be interesting.
You could pick the wand wielder arcana so you can cast spells from wands which will let you keep your frostbite charges
As to the white haired witch / prehensile hair combo, you will only use one type of attack so whether it is primary or secondary doesn't change anything since you will get full BAB and 1.5 int modifier on it.
I still think natural combat is required to make this build fully legit, I have seen Reynolds' answer but he does not 100% seem like he knows what he's talking about
They screwed the Magus with wands. Wand Wielder and Wand Mastery do not allow the Magus to cast spells from wands using his level. Either of those Magus Arcana would be far more useful if one of them allowed you to cast the spell at your caster level. I won't spend the money on a wand to get it to a higher caster level. The advantage of frostbite is no level cap on the extra damage, which now functions with Empower Spell. At level 10 your Empowered frostbite will do 1d6+10 x 1.5 (average 19 per hit). If I use a wand, they'll do 1d6+1 unless I spend the dough to boost the CL.
I'd much rather spend my coin on permanent magic items. If either of those arcana allowed CL casting, they would be very worth it. Buy a lvl 1 wand to cast your favorite spell 50 times would be great. I imagine that is why they didn't allow it.
I was not thinking of using wands for level dependant spells.
But things like a wand of true strike, shield or bladed dash can become very useful.
It's become close to overpowered in my hair witch build where I use true strike to get a guaranteed trip even on quadrupeds with entangled and fatigued. Accurate strike then allows me to make a cmb + 6 grapple check vs target's diminished cmd.
Sounds like you're playing a debuff build to set up other party members. Our kill speed is very fast. I don't want to waste time tripping and grappling.
I played with STR Ranger's hexcrafter in another group. The only Hex that proved particularly useful was the Flight Hex. Between the paladin, inquisitor of Gorum, and the Magus, everything died so quickly that utilizing a hex was a relative waste of time. Better to choose spells that improve kill speed and finish everything fast.
This is also my experience running the Magus a few times. Death happens so quickly in most encounters that any actions not spent killing are wasting time.
Our group tends to power through the lower levels. I want a build that focuses on bringing the hammer at lvls 10 to 15. I won't be using wands in those instances. I'll hammer with harder spells.
The Icy Vampire build will focus on bringing the pain with a little hit point buffer for the occasional hit that makes it through. Magus has pretty good defenses at higher level against all enemies that don't have true seeing.
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Sounds like you're playing a debuff build to set up other party members. Our kill speed is very fast. I don't want to waste time tripping and grappling.
I played with STR Ranger's hexcrafter in another group. The only Hex that proved particularly useful was the Flight Hex. Between the paladin, inquisitor of Gorum, and the Magus, everything died so quickly that utilizing a hex was a relative waste of time. Better to choose spells that improve kill speed and finish everything fast.
This is also my experience running the Magus a few times. Death happens so quickly in most encounters that any actions not spent killing are wasting time.
Our group tends to power through the lower levels. I want a build that focuses on bringing the hammer at lvls 10 to 15. I won't be using wands in those instances. I'll hammer with harder spells.
The Icy Vampire build will focus on bringing the pain with a little hit point buffer for the occasional hit that makes it through. Magus has pretty good defenses at higher level against all enemies that don't have true seeing.
You're Icy Vampire build intrigues me. I see the potential but would love to see you're actual build. Most of my designs have been focused on getting the build running as soon as possible so haven't worked out anything for a higher level starting point yet.
To be clear. Does the white-haired witch archetype's hair stack with Prehensile hair? Will your reach attack be considered secondary and not benefit from WHW bonuses like the free grapple check and use of constrict?It doesn't really matter.
Worst thing that happens is you don't get your grapple until the second attack in a full attack or you have to take a 5' step to start the combat. That's it, whether they stack or not is a non issue.
Isn't prehensile hair where your INT to attack comes from? WHW states INT to damage, not attack so how are you using INT to hit?
Also
Can one combat mano really qualify you to use a second with the same attack - trip/grab ?
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To be clear. Does the white-haired witch archetype's hair stack with Prehensile hair? Will your reach attack be considered secondary and not benefit from WHW bonuses like the free grapple check and use of constrict?It doesn't really matter.
Worst thing that happens is you don't get your grapple until the second attack in a full attack or you have to take a 5' step to start the combat. That's it, whether they stack or not is a non issue.
Isn't prehensile hair where your INT to attack comes from? WHW states INT to damage, not attack so how are you using INT to hit?
Also
Can one combat mano really qualify you to use a second with the same attack - trip/grab ?
We never said use your int for any of this strictly that you use the hair to initiate the attack to get the free grapple. Remember we are powering all this with arcane accuracy/Accurate Strike giving a massive bonus to all attack attempts (all combat maneuvers are attacks so benefit from these buffs) pretty much making these attacks connect.
B. Yes.
OK.
So before 4th level you are attacking via a Str of 13. And then you get INT to attack via prehensile hair thereafter baring in mind it only works for one minute per level. This is assuming you can combine the 2 hair abilities - can't see why they can't combine mind but just saying.
Plus the arcana give you an enhancement bonus to attack based on level and INT to attack a second time for one round.
It's a lot of pluses 4th onward but levels 1-3 you suck!
From the guide...
How it works:
This build hinges around using your Hair natural attack for ALL your attack actions. As your only natural attack it is always at Full Bab and does 1-1/2 times your Strength bonus on damage rolls. Since you use your Intelligence bonus in place of strength every time you boost your Int you boost your melee to-hit and damage.
That does say INT to hit.
Sounds like you're playing a debuff build to set up other party members. Our kill speed is very fast. I don't want to waste time tripping and grappling.
I played with STR Ranger's hexcrafter in another group. The only Hex that proved particularly useful was the Flight Hex. Between the paladin, inquisitor of Gorum, and the Magus, everything died so quickly that utilizing a hex was a relative waste of time. Better to choose spells that improve kill speed and finish everything fast.
This is also my experience running the Magus a few times. Death happens so quickly in most encounters that any actions not spent killing are wasting time.
Our group tends to power through the lower levels. I want a build that focuses on bringing the hammer at lvls 10 to 15. I won't be using wands in those instances. I'll hammer with harder spells.
The Icy Vampire build will focus on bringing the pain with a little hit point buffer for the occasional hit that makes it through. Magus has pretty good defenses at higher level against all enemies that don't have true seeing.
You're Icy Vampire build intrigues me. I see the potential but would love to see you're actual build. Most of my designs have been focused on getting the build running as soon as possible so haven't worked out anything for a higher level starting point yet.
I'll post an update around lvl 12. I'm lvl 5 right now. Let you know how it is going. Hopefully it will be effective and fun.
Is it possible to use weapon finesse with the hair?
If so, you could half dump Str and have a higher dex to help out in the early levels hitting and all the other bonuses for having a high dex score.
Is it possible to use weapon finesse with the hair?
Yes:
Benefit: With a light weapon, elven curve blade, rapier, whip, or spiked chain made for a creature of your size category, you may use your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier on attack rolls. If you carry a shield, its armor check penalty applies to your attack rolls.
Special: Natural weapons are considered light weapons.
If so, you could half dump Str and have a higher dex to help out in the early levels hitting and all the other bonuses for having a high dex score.
You could, but I don't see the point: hairs use int instead of str, and you anyway need a high int to be effective with prehensile hairs. You basically reduce MAD if you use the defiler or similar build, but unless you want to go with dervish dancer build, weapon finesse is totally useless. Sure, it could help at low levs, when you don't have hairs, but the to it shouldn't be a problem, if you use arcane accuracy to add int to hit. So at early levels you you can use arcane accurasy, and in the mid to later levs, weapon finesse would be a waste of space, at least in the defiler-like build. And, on top of that, you anyway need str 13 to get power attack.
I honestly don't see why arcane accuracy can solve this problem. First of all at low levels you will have limited arcane points so it is totally out of the question to use arcane accuracy on each attack.
More importantly arcane accuracy uses a swift action, which will prevent you from using constrict on your target on the same turn, thus severely reducing action economy.