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Two Weapon Fighting Using Spells


Rules Questions


New to the board so please forgive me if this sounds ridiculous, and please bear with me on the long explanation. I am currently making a goblin with the Fire Elemental Bloodline for a play the "We Be Goblins" module. And I had a question about casting two spells as a full round action. Using the Core Rulebook, here’s what I’ve found:

“Bloodline Arcana: Whenever you cast a spell that deals energy damage, you can change the type of damage to match the type of your bloodline. This also changes the spell’s type to match the type of your bloodline.”

“Cantrips: Sorcerers learn a number of cantrips, or 0-level spells, as noted on Table 3–15 under “Spells Known.” These spells are cast like any other spell, but they do not consume any slots and may be used again.”

So by using this information I would be able to cast, say acid splash, as many times a day as needed. The spells element would be changed to fire because of the Bloodline Arcana, and would only take one standard action to cast and a free action would be needed to make the ranged touch attack.

Now here’s the actual question: If I take the Two-Weapon Fighting feat, would I be able to us a full round action to cast Acid Splash twice, taking the -2 to both ranged attacks.

Before we jump to the conclusion that Two-Weapon Fighting requires the use of a physical weapon, I quote the book again:

“Touch Attacks: Touching an opponent with a touch spell is considered to be an armed attack and therefore does not provoke attacks of opportunity.”

I look at the fact that they are armed attacks it would be similar to a monk using flurry of blows. So if this would be the case could my goblin choose to negate his move action and instead throw two standard action spells as a full round action using this feat?

Andoran

No, you can give up a standard action to gain a move action but you can not give up a move action to gain a standard action.

An important thing to keep in mind, feats only ever allow you to do what they say you can do. You can't extrapolate from that.

Andoran

The limiting factor here is that casting each spell is a standard action.

If you have a touch spell that allows multiple attacks once cast, such as chill touch, then you can make multiple touch attacks as part of a full-round attack. But, there is not an option for casting two standard action spells as a full round action, much less a full round attack, without an additional rules resource such as a feat or class ability.


Okay well maybe I've been interpretating the Two-Weapon Fighting feat incorrectly. If you are fighting with, say two short swords, if you wanted to attack with both of them, it would be a full round action right?

Or have I read it wrong and you get both attacks but they only count as one standard action, thus you still get your move action?


Fear of Mind wrote:
If you are fighting with, say two short swords, if you wanted to attack with both of them, it would be a full round action right?

Correct, but the specific full round action is the full attack action.

Two-Weapon Fighting, by it's nature, requires the use of the full attack action, which is a full-round action.


So a full attack action (if you only had one BAB), via Two-Weapon Fighting, is basically a standard action with one hand/weapon and then a second standard action with the other head/weapon. No move action, still can use a five fore step, though.

Andoran

No, it is not two standard actions. It is a full round action. In a given round, you can make a full round action, or you can make a combination of a move and standard action. Some attacks are standard actions in themselves. Such attacks cannot be used as part of a full round attack.


No full round actions are not two standard actions. It is its own action that allows you to certain things that combinations of lesser actions would not allow.

An example is the charging. If you move up to someone, and then hit them you don't get a +2 to attack, but if you charge then you do. Charging also allows to move up to double your speed and still attack also.

If you try to mentally break it down into smaller actions you might end up trying to do things the rules don't allow.


So I guess, I'll expand my question.

If a standard action melee attack becomes a full attack action using the two-weapon fighting feat, and a standard action ranged attacked becomes a full attack action using the rapid shot feat, why isn't there a feat for making standard action spells (and only ones that can be cast in a standard action) become a full attack action?

Thanks for all your quy's help!

Shadow Lodge

Back in DND 3.0 they realized that more than one spell a turn (by way of 3.0 Haste spell) was way too overpowered without using up a much higher spell slot (via the Quicken metamagic feat).


You've got it wrong, FoM, using the feats doesn't change the actions, changing the actions allows use of the feats. To use the two-weapon-fighting and rapid-shot feats, you need to use a full attack action, instead of just your normal standard action attack or spell.

Complicated Spell 2WF:
If you wanted to do two weapon fighting with spells, you could use a multi-charge touch spell like Frostbite or ChillTouch. Once you're high enough level to have 3 or more touches available, you could use a standard action to cast it (and make one free action touch attack), then next round take your full attack action to two weapon fight with your remaining charges. Using touch spells to deliver sneak attacks against touch AC is one of the many reasons all rogues should be UMD rogues.

Osirion

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If you are very interested in spells and melee combat at once, check out Magus.
Otherwise, it's a no-go. As Eric Clingenpeel said, two spells a round is EXTREMELY POWERFUL. Even at low/mid levels that would lead to some devastating results, which is why Quicken boosts it by 4 (so no class could do that to even a 0 lvl spell until 7th.)


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

@Fear of Mind:
Magic, unlike mundane attacks, do not have a readily available way to do more than one a round. At higher level you can use the Quickened Spell metamagic feat to cast a spell as a swift action, and then still cast a spell as a standard action.

Alternatively, you can play a magus, who gets to use spells and do attacks (but still not two spells) in the same round.

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