You know the move, you've seen it in countless movies where someone delivers an awesome punch, backhand, what have you... and the guy that gets hit gets thrown back and lands on their back, or crashes into a wall and slumps down.
Why was this never part of the basic design of 3rd edition? They added in several other combat maneuvers. Bull Rush does the shoving, Overrun or Trip can make people prone, but why wasn't this well known trope part of the core dynamic of the game?
Sure, we've had feats and monsters over the years that sprinkle this effect in, and I'm sure with the copious amounts of powers in 4E that some kind of effect like this is present now, but I'm just scratching my head why there wasn't something to the effect of:
You hit target hard, they fly back 1+ squares and are prone.
It wouldn't be an easy thing to do, and Pathfinder might not have been able to handle it with their streamlined system, but in the world of sub-systems that was 3.0/3.5 it just seems like this ought to have been baked into the system.
Actually I've houseruled Knock "Down" into my game, which is detailed in Monte Cook's Experimental Might - it's a great CMB, check it out for something similar.
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Hitting people hard enough to teach them flying.
Of course, Monster Feat, 25 Str, Large, etc ... but sidestepping Awesome Blow would be kind of hard.
(Does anybody else dream about a "Juggle" feat that allows to launch the opponent in the air and have everybody take free hits at him ? Yeah, too much Street Fighter, but still :)
The group I'm in just has the victim of the Bull Rush attack make a reflex save to keep upright, DC equal to the attack roll.
Sure, we've had feats and monsters over the years that sprinkle this effect in, and I'm sure with the copious amounts of powers in 4E that some kind of effect like this is present now, but I'm just scratching my head why there wasn't something to the effect of:
You hit target hard, they fly back 1+ squares and are prone.
It wouldn't be an easy thing to do, and Pathfinder might not have been able to handle it with their streamlined system, but in the world of sub-systems that was 3.0/3.5 it just seems like this ought to have been baked into the system.
Probably because it did too many things to allow it as a standard combat option.
Let's see what you are proposing:I don't think many people would feel comfortable with allowing that for "free" (as opposed to say a feat purchase).
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I have a "Knock-back" manuever in my homebrew rules that I've added.
It allows the combatant to knock a struck opponent one square back (but not prone), provided the square is vacant; via a CMB success.
This comes in really handy is the person attacking wants to then move away - since he's no longer threatened. That's primarily the purpose, or to simply move the creature into a more strategic location.
It's only available if you take the feat (which is on the Power Attack tree), and it has the same caveats as the CMB maneuvers in the PF Core rules in regards to being moved into a very dangerous spot (like over the edge of a bridge/cliff).
Robert
I have a "Knock-back" manuever in my homebrew rules that I've added.
It allows the combatant to knock a struck opponent one square back (but not prone), provided the square is vacant; via a CMB success.
This comes in really handy is the person attacking wants to then move away - since he's no longer threatened. That's primarily the purpose, or to simply move the creature into a more strategic location.
It's only available if you take the feat (which is on the Power Attack tree), and it has the same caveats as the CMB maneuvers in the PF Core rules in regards to being moved into a very dangerous spot (like over the edge of a bridge/cliff).
Robert
What I would suggest is applying a knock-back by comparing the damage of a single hit and the constitution or strength. If dammage - [con or str] > x[threshold you decide] then you have a knock-back. Knock-back distance = 5 feets for every 5 point that supercede the threshold.
For example : 31 dam - 10 con > 20[the threshols I decided] then a knock-back occurs for a distance of 1 feet, round up to 5 feets.
We included Knockback as a combat option in Lands of the Jade Oath. It's fun. After using it in some games though, I recommend limiting it to 15 feet max. This isn't Champions. ;)
...Probably because it did too many things to allow it as a standard combat option.
Exactly.
And just because "you've seen it in countless movies where someone delivers an awesome punch, backhand, what have you..." doesn't mean this should be a default option available to everybody. Those action-movie heroes you're referencing would probably be best represented as uniquely superior combatants in a 3.x game-rules scenario.
And PRPG now has the lovely Barbarian Rage Power called... KNOCKBACK achieving this exact effect.
Just take 2 levels of Barbarian and you're good to go.
Also look at Shield Slam: "Opponents who cannot move back due to a wall or other surface are knocked prone after moving the maximum possible distance." Mostly, bull rush maneuvers handle "knock back" capabilities.
And if you use the Critical Hit deck, it has some knockback abilities as well, as the poor dwarven cleric of Irori learned two sessions ago.
SHORYUKEN!!!!
And if you use the Critical Hit deck, it has some knockback abilities as well, as the poor dwarven cleric of Irori learned two sessions ago.
Were is that Critical Hit deck ? oO
Also, there's a feat in 3.X called Pushback or Push Back. I think it was in the Complete Warrior or Complete Adventurer, I don't remember. It needed Power Attack and Bullrush and didn't make the opponent prone, but it's close enough to what you described.
We've also got the "Bull Rush Strike" feat in the APG, triggering a bull rush on a crit.
We included Knockback as a combat option in Lands of the Jade Oath. It's fun. After using it in some games though, I recommend limiting it to 15 feet max. This isn't Champions. ;)Or Fantasy HERO, for that matter. But it could be...
...But it is a game about playing as fantasy heroes, such as Gilgamesh who wrestled a god or Beowulf who ripped off Grendel's arm :|
...But it is a game about playing as fantasy heroes, such as Gilgamesh who wrestled a god or Beowulf who ripped off Grendel's arm :|
It's true. And the sad thing is, because of the huge prerequisites, even a ogre or a mighty troll cannot take Awesome Blow. Remember that scene in LotR were the cave troll punch Boromir (I think it was Boromir) and send him flying agaisnt a stone pillar ? Well, it's not going to happen in D&D or PF. Nothing shorter than a hill giant can kick a kobold in the sky, and he still have to take a feat to be able to do that... :\
...But it is a game about playing as fantasy heroes, such as Gilgamesh who wrestled a god or Beowulf who ripped off Grendel's arm :|
It's true. And the sad thing is, because of the huge prerequisites, even a ogre or a mighty troll cannot take Awesome Blow. Remember that scene in LotR were the cave troll punch Boromir (I think it was Boromir) and send him flying agaisnt a stone pillar ? Well, it's not going to happen in D&D or PF. Nothing shorter than a hill giant can kick a kobold in the sky, and he still have to take a feat to be able to do that... :\
Well, if you give two levels of barbarian to your cave troll it work... ;)
Same for Gilgamesh or Beowulf (well they are barbarian anyway... :p )
*shrug* It's been in my games off and on through the various editions / houseruled systems I've used. There's nothing quite like knocking someone back into a pit or off a cliff :D Besides, with a book called Ultimate Combat (iirc) coming further down the road it might be in the cards (again).
I ask: couldn't a Barbaian with knockback and knockdown do the job? Use them with the same blow and it's done :)
Instead of creating complicated house rules, you could simply use a shield :
Shield Slam (Combat)
In the right position, your shield can be used to send opponents flying.
Prerequisites: Improved Shield Bash, Shield Proficiency, Two-Weapon Fighting, base attack bonus +6.
Benefit: Any opponents hit by your shield bash are also hit with a free bull rush attack, substituting your attack roll for the combat maneuver check (see Combat). This bull rush does not provoke an attack of opportunity. Opponents who cannot move back due to a wall or other surface are knocked prone after moving the maximum possible distance. You may choose to move with your target if you are able to take a 5-foot step or to spend an action to move this turn.
Stuff.
Does that mean that you HAVE to move with your target if you want it to fly more than 5 ft. away ?
Does that mean that you HAVE to move with your target if you want it to fly more than 5 ft. away ?
Nope it's in the bull rush rules, you can throw your opponent more than 5 feet away depending on the dices result... If you beat the CMD by "x" (can't rememeber how many ;) ) you push your opponent 5 feet further by each "x" step...
Well... Don't know if I'm clear here... :p
Does that mean that you HAVE to move with your target if you want it to fly more than 5 ft. away ?Nope it's in the bull rush rules, you can throw your opponent more than 5 feet away depending on the dices result... If you beat the CMD by "x" (can't rememeber how many ;) ) you push your opponent 5 feet further by each "x" step...
Well... Don't know if I'm clear here... :p
Ok, but I'm quite confuse, because in 3.x you had to move with the target all the way. If you push im 5 ft. back, you need to move 5 ft. with him. If you push im 10 ft. back, you need to move 10 ft. with him. If you push im X ft. back, you need to move X ft. with him. I guess you get the picture: you had to always remain adjacent with your target.
Are you saying that, with bull rush in PF, I can stay were I am (after the initial collision) and watch my opponent fly away ? That would be... AWESOME! (;
Ok, but I'm quite confuse, because in 3.x you had to move with the target all the way. If you push im 5 ft. back, you need to move 5 ft. with him. If you push im 10 ft. back, you need to move 10 ft. with him. If you push im X ft. back, you need to move X ft. with him. I guess you get the picture: you had to always remain adjacent with your target.
Are you saying that, with bull rush in PF, I can stay were I am (after the initial collision) and watch my opponent fly away ? That would be... AWESOME! (;
PF bull rush pushes an opponent 5 feet + 5 feet for every 5 points that the check exceeds the opponent's CMD. You can choose to move with the opponent, but you do not have to. Additionally, you can domino effect multiple targets by bull rushing one creature into another.
Stuff.Does that mean that you HAVE to move with your target if you want it to fly more than 5 ft. away ?
No. You use the standard bull-rush rules to determine how far you move your target.
The phrase "You may choose to move with your target if you are able to take a 5-foot step or to spend an action to move this turn." just means that if you didn't move earlier in your turn, you can follow your target (to end your full attack or threaten it on its next turn).
That's great, thanx ! :D
That's great, thanx ! :D
And with the Bull Rush Strike feat I mentioned above... Yes, your weapons could conceivably knock an opponent about in a similar manner.
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As it appears in the PRD, by RAW a Bull Rush no longer requires you to move with the target to push them further than 5ft. Not sure if that was intended or not but I quite like that.
Anyone else agree on this reading of Bull Rush?
As it appears in the PRD, by RAW a Bull Rush no longer requires you to move with the target to push them FURTHER THAN FIVE FT. Not sure if that was intended or not but I quite like that.
Anyone else agree on this reading of Bull Rush?
Does that mean that you have to move with the target AT LEAST 5 ft when doing a bull rush ?
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As it appears in the PRD, by RAW a Bull Rush no longer requires you to move with the target to push them further than 5ft. Not sure if that was intended or not but I quite like that.
Anyone else agree on this reading of Bull Rush?
That is the way I read it.
You can move with the target if you wish
but you must have the available movement to do so.
Seems fairly straightforward.
Does that mean that you have to move with the target AT LEAST 5 ft when doing a bull rush ?
I would say no.
WotC's Miniature's Handbook, take the Pushback feat, requires Strength 17, Power Attack, Improved Bull Rush; allows you to push a foe back 5 ft. after an attack.
Enjoy.
And if you want to use Pushing Assault with a punch, I've got just the thing for you!
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I find it interesting that Overrun has knock-down built in (just have to succeed by 5 or more), but Bull Rush does not. It does, however, make the movement provoke from allies if you have the Greater feat. You could bull-rush an opponent towards allies who AoO trip the poor sucker.
It wouldn't be an unreasonable feat option, IMO, as it's a stretch that it doesn't occur automatically.
I've done a "bull rush" type of attack before, and got almost no distance out of it (they weight ~25% more than I did), but they still fell down. I do vaguely remember pushing "up" just as much as out though, so I may have to call that a "trip" in PF rules. (PS: I'm no fighter, it was just a one-off occurrence.)
-Cliffs
-pits
-spiked pits
-water & people wearing plate
-pits with gelatinous cubes at the bottom
-Lava pits
-Holes to other dimensions
-Blade barriers
-Stinking clouds
-Cloudkills