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Hello all,
During my last gameplay session I summoned a crocodile and there were some questions about what appears to be a somewhat poorly worded ability called death roll.
Here's the text from the PRD version of the ability:
Death Roll (Ex) When grappling a foe of its size or smaller, a crocodile can perform a death roll upon making a successful grapple check. As it clings to its foe, it tucks in its legs and rolls rapidly, twisting and wrenching its victim. The crocodile inflicts its bite damage and knocks the creature prone. If successful, the crocodile maintains its grapple.
I've searched the forum, and although there were a few posts that were related to the ability none of them questioned the wording of it. Can someone give me a brief overview of how this ability is intended to work? I am familiar with the flavored intent of the ability, ie, how a crocodile uses a death roll to pull limbs and flesh off of its meal.
But how does that apply when using the ability, and what is the 'If successful' clause of this ability referring to, the knocking the target prone? The successful grapple? A successful bite?
The text 'knocks the target prone', does that mean I make a free trip attack, or is the trip attack automatically successful?
Thanks in advance for your help.
My initial take is that they want to allow the crocodile to make an attack as part of the check just to maintain the grapple. Which would then allow it to still use the Damage action listed in the Grapple Rules. So on its initiative count the croc rolls its CMD roll and if it's successful then it applies its bite damage as part of that roll, and applies the prone condition to the enemy in the grapple. After that it still has the availability of doing damage with its natural attack, as per the aforementioned Grapple Rules.
So in the end it rolls one CMD check and on a successful roll gets to apply it's bite damage (with what looks like some increased STR damage from the monster stat block), then bite again, as per the grapple rules, and at the end of the turn the creature it is grappling has just acquired the prone condition.
Pretty nice ability. Allowing for double bite damage, and applying the prone condition to an enemy.
It seems pretty realistic, since being in the death grip of a crocodile is not really a fun place to be.
Thanks for your post, the breakdown of actions is helpful. Since the crocodile has the grab ability when using its bite attack, is the following series of events possible?
Crocodile lands a bite attack and does its bite damage. As part of its bite attack it uses its grab attack, and is successful. Since grab allows a free grapple check, and the grapple was succesful, the crocodile knocks the creature prone and does bite damage as part of the death roll ability. Giving total damage of 2 bites.
I would submit that the following change to the wording of this ability would clarify it:
(original)
Death Roll (Ex) When grappling a foe of its size or smaller, a crocodile can perform a death roll upon making a successful grapple check. As it clings to its foe, it tucks in its legs and rolls rapidly, twisting and wrenching its victim. The crocodile inflicts its bite damage and knocks the creature prone. If successful, the crocodile maintains its grapple.
(proposed change)
Death Roll (Ex) When grappling a foe of its size or smaller, a crocodile can perform a death roll upon making a successful grapple check. As it clings to its foe, it tucks in its legs and rolls rapidly, twisting and wrenching its victim. The crocodile inflicts its bite damage and knocks the creature prone. The use of this ability does not end the grapple.
Why this change? Because when I first used this ability I thought the wording "the crocodile maintains its grapple" meant that it automatically succeeded on future grapple attempts used to maintain the grapple.
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Thanks for your post, the breakdown of actions is helpful. Since the crocodile has the grab ability when using its bite attack, is the following series of events possible?
Crocodile lands a bite attack and does its bite damage. As part of its bite attack it uses its grab attack, and is successful. Since grab allows a free grapple check, and the grapple was succesful, the crocodile knocks the creature prone and does bite damage as part of the death roll ability. Giving total damage of 2 bites.
Not how I see it.
I bite you and do bite damage. Free grapple from grab you are now grappled.
Death roll has to specifically start in a grapple and you have to make a successful grapple check. So while I may have made the free grapple check to grab you satisfying condition two I didn't start in a grapple, condition one.
So you can't do it until round two. Deathroll occurs on round two, I start in a grapple and can make a standard action to make a grapple check. You take bite damage, go prone, and the death roll continues ad infinitum as long as successful grapple checks are made each round.
Thanks for your post, the breakdown of actions is helpful. Since the crocodile has the grab ability when using its bite attack, is the following series of events possible?
Crocodile lands a bite attack and does its bite damage. As part of its bite attack it uses its grab attack, and is successful. Since grab allows a free grapple check, and the grapple was succesful, the crocodile knocks the creature prone and does bite damage as part of the death roll ability. Giving total damage of 2 bites.
Huh, now that I look at it, it seems like Death Roll isn't that great after all. Since the Grab rules say that each subsequent successful grapple check automatically applies the bite damage anyway, the only thing you're really getting out of the Death Roll is applying the prone condition.
Also, just based on my interpretation of the wording I wouldn't allow a death roll until the second round of grapple. The wording "when grappling" to me means after the initial grapple check. Like Alysia said.
So to clarify, my new interpretation is that the croc would normally get bite damage with any successful grapple check anyway, as per the Grab ability. With a Death Roll it gets a little bit of extra strength damage, and to apply the prone condition to the target. After that it still could use the Damage ability listed under Grapple to get another natural attack (in this case another bite).
Thanks for your post, the breakdown of actions is helpful. Since the crocodile has the grab ability when using its bite attack, is the following series of events possible?
Crocodile lands a bite attack and does its bite damage. As part of its bite attack it uses its grab attack, and is successful. Since grab allows a free grapple check, and the grapple was succesful, the crocodile knocks the creature prone and does bite damage as part of the death roll ability. Giving total damage of 2 bites.
Not how I see it.
I bite you and do bite damage. Free grapple from grab you are now grappled.
Death roll has to specifically start in a grapple and you have to make a successful grapple check. So while I may have made the free grapple check to grab you satisfying condition two I didn't start in a grapple, condition one.
So you can't do it until round two. Deathroll occurs on round two, I start in a grapple and can make a standard action to make a grapple check. You take bite damage, go prone, and the death roll continues ad infinitum as long as successful grapple checks are made each round.
This makes the most sense. I award you full points, and may the gods have mercy upon your soul.
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This makes the most sense. I award you full points, and may the gods have mercy upon your soul.Thanks for your post, the breakdown of actions is helpful. Since the crocodile has the grab ability when using its bite attack, is the following series of events possible?
Crocodile lands a bite attack and does its bite damage. As part of its bite attack it uses its grab attack, and is successful. Since grab allows a free grapple check, and the grapple was succesful, the crocodile knocks the creature prone and does bite damage as part of the death roll ability. Giving total damage of 2 bites.
Not how I see it.
I bite you and do bite damage. Free grapple from grab you are now grappled.
Death roll has to specifically start in a grapple and you have to make a successful grapple check. So while I may have made the free grapple check to grab you satisfying condition two I didn't start in a grapple, condition one.
So you can't do it until round two. Deathroll occurs on round two, I start in a grapple and can make a standard action to make a grapple check. You take bite damage, go prone, and the death roll continues ad infinitum as long as successful grapple checks are made each round.
Oooo is that sarcasm? I love sarcasm, delicous sarcasm.
Um trying to be helpful here cause ya crocodiles. Have a character who is one.The problem is in the timing. The deathroll doesn't make it clear. It should read "... upon making a successful grapple check (as a standard action)". But that's implied as grapple checks are usually standard actions. It is indeed confusing and I can see how it could go either way.
This makes the most sense. I award you full points, and may the gods have mercy upon your soul.Thanks for your post, the breakdown of actions is helpful. Since the crocodile has the grab ability when using its bite attack, is the following series of events possible?
Crocodile lands a bite attack and does its bite damage. As part of its bite attack it uses its grab attack, and is successful. Since grab allows a free grapple check, and the grapple was succesful, the crocodile knocks the creature prone and does bite damage as part of the death roll ability. Giving total damage of 2 bites.
Not how I see it.
I bite you and do bite damage. Free grapple from grab you are now grappled.
Death roll has to specifically start in a grapple and you have to make a successful grapple check. So while I may have made the free grapple check to grab you satisfying condition two I didn't start in a grapple, condition one.
So you can't do it until round two. Deathroll occurs on round two, I start in a grapple and can make a standard action to make a grapple check. You take bite damage, go prone, and the death roll continues ad infinitum as long as successful grapple checks are made each round.Oooo is that sarcasm? I love sarcasm, delicous sarcasm.
Um trying to be helpful here cause ya crocodiles. Have a character who is one.The problem is in the timing. The deathroll doesn't make it clear. It should read "... upon making a successful grapple check (as a standard action)". But that's implied as grapple checks are usually standard actions. It is indeed confusing and I can see how it could go either way.
I was not being sarcastic. I was just using a quote from the movie Billy Madison out of context. I honestly appreciate your help, and your answer does indeed make the most sense.
Death Roll is still pretty nasty. Even if the victim manages to break the grapple, they're prone and have only a move action. Options here are to stand up or crawl (to get out melee with a croc, which I think would be a high priority), provoking an AoO from the croc... and it can start all over again.
Or you use your move action for something other than movement, waiting till next round and get rolled all over again.
Crocs are scary... while other species needed to evolve to survive, or died off trying to adapt, the croc didn't. Instead, it has been a perfectly effective killer for tens millions of years.
Death Roll is still pretty nasty. Even if the victim manages to break the grapple, they're prone and have to stand up or crawl, provoking an AoO from the croc... and it can start all over again.
That is true. Especially if the croc uses the Death Roll to apply some bite damage, then the prone condition, and then uses the available Move ability listed under grapple to drag a PC into deeper water. Then the PC has to worry about drowning!
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The crocodile has grab.
The crocodile attacks with its bite.
If the bite hits the bite deals damage
The crocodile then makes a CMB check. *whistles innocently*
If the check is successful the target takes bite damage again and is knocked prone.
Its basically constrict but it applies the prone condition in addition to the normal constrict.
The only thing i can see as vague is whether or not a 4 legger or dwarf should have a bonus to their CMD against it. Its not technically a trip, but you are trying to trip them. I would probably say yes, the higher cmd applies.
I always read it as BNF described it also since constrict has similar wording.
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Death Roll is still pretty nasty. Even if the victim manages to break the grapple, they're prone and have to stand up or crawl, provoking an AoO from the croc... and it can start all over again.That is true. Especially if the croc uses the Death Roll to apply some bite damage, then the prone condition, and then uses the available Move ability listed under grapple to drag a PC into deeper water. Then the PC has to worry about drowning!
This is exactly how my druid lost her first animal companion...
This is exactly how my druid lost her first animal companion...Death Roll is still pretty nasty. Even if the victim manages to break the grapple, they're prone and have to stand up or crawl, provoking an AoO from the croc... and it can start all over again.That is true. Especially if the croc uses the Death Roll to apply some bite damage, then the prone condition, and then uses the available Move ability listed under grapple to drag a PC into deeper water. Then the PC has to worry about drowning!
That sucks! Death Roll really is a roll towards death.
Just to be clear, Wraith and BNF you're saying the croc could use the death roll on their very first turn in the initiative count if they are in the water? Roll attack, success = bite damage, roll CMD check as per the Grab ability, success = Death Roll special ability is enacted causing more bite damage and the grappled enemy to take the prone condition.
Being prone means a -4 to the CMD to break the grapple?
If the character successfully breaks the grapple are they still prone? In which case the move action of standing up provokes that AoO and the croc could, feasibly, get them all over again.
What if the character gets moved on a subsequent round? If they are prone under water do they make a CMD to break the grapple, then a move action to "stand up" (read: remove the prone condition), or can the move action be to swim to the surface?
Yikes I was thinking about sending a dire croc against one of my groups in the near future. This makes me want to reconsider that. I might just TPK them if things go poorly.
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Also, both the crocodile and it victim have to be in the water to use this ability.
I don't see that written anywhere.
Just to be clear, Wraith and BNF you're saying the croc could use the death roll on their very first turn in the initiative count if they are in the water? Roll attack, success = bite damage, roll CMD check as per the Grab ability, success = Death Roll special ability is enacted causing more bite damage and the grappled enemy to take the prone condition.
Yup. This is why you adventure with a party, and this is why the rogue does not scout alone outside of yelling range of the party.
Being prone means a -4 to the CMD to break the grapple?
I believe so
Prone: The character is lying on the ground. A prone attacker has a –4 penalty on melee attack rolls and cannot use a ranged weapon (except for a crossbow). A prone defender gains a +4 bonus to Armor Class against ranged attacks, but takes a –4 penalty to AC against melee attacks.
When you attempt to perform a combat maneuver, make an attack roll and add your CMB in place of your normal attack bonus.
If the character successfully breaks the grapple are they still prone?
Yes
In which case the move action of standing up provokes that AoO and the croc could, feasibly, get them all over again.
PROBABLY. The grab is technically a free action. I feel that the writers have been loose enough with out of turn free actions, and that there are unspecified free actions that can be performed out of turn, that you can assume free actions can be done out of turn. Some feel that since the croc technically can't perform free actions it can't use the grab ability outside of its turn.
What breaks it for me is that you're being biten by a damn crocodile, its going to hold onto you whether its your turn or not.
What if the character gets moved on a subsequent round? If they are prone under water do they make a CMD to break the grapple, then a move action to "stand up" (read: remove the prone condition), or can the move action be to swim to the surface?
I don't know if you CAN be prone under water...
Yikes I was thinking about sending a dire croc against one of my groups in the near future. This makes me want to reconsider that. I might just TPK them if things go poorly.
It shouldn't TPK. Your party should have enough damage to kill it before its done chomping on the second person.
Now I'm envisioning the Dire Croc getting a surprise attack. Just based off of nature videos like the one I linked earlier. A dire croc could conceivably get a surprise attack on a PC either on a rickety bridge, or at the edge of the water.
Does being under murky water provide Cover or Concealment? I can't find a good indicator.
If the croc were sitting, waiting, concealed (stealthed), at the edge of the water could it conceivably: surprise attack - grab - death roll - move (dragging the victim down 15 feet)? Or does the move have to happen in the next round after a successful check to maintain the grapple?
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The move would have to happen the next round. During a surprise round you only get a single standard action.
edit: oh andit would be concealment, it impairs vision but dosn't stop attacks. (I had the same question until I ran Rebel's Ransom and they spelled out concealment in murky water in the module.
Crocs are vicious and I want to throw them at some players now. I'm thinking two, with Set's death rays on their freaking heads for fun.
(Yes I miss the scarred lands setting)
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You can find some rule under the Environment section of the Core Rulebook (p. 432-433) or PRD.
Stealth and Detection Underwater: How far you can see underwater depends on the water's clarity. As a guideline, creatures can see 4d8 × 10 feet if the water is clear, and 1d8 × 10 feet if it's murky. Moving water is always murky, unless it's in a particularly large, slow-moving river.
It's hard to find cover or concealment to hide underwater (except along the sea floor).
I would actually allow a crocodile to be hidden while partially submerged (it is what they do in real life, after all), so I would partially disregard that last row of text.
edit: oh andit would be concealment, it impairs vision but dosn't stop attacks. (I had the same question until I ran Rebel's Ransom and they spelled out concealment in murky water in the module.
They would have a bit more than concealment if the attackers i outside the water:
Attacks from Land: Characters swimming, floating, or treading water on the surface, or wading in water at least chest deep, have improved cover (+8 bonus to AC, +4 bonus on Reflex saves) from opponents on land. Land-bound opponents who have freedom of movement effects ignore this cover when making melee attacks against targets in the water. A completely submerged creature has total cover against opponents on land unless those opponents have freedom of movement effects. Magical effects are unaffected except for those that require attack rolls (which are treated like any other effects) and fire effects.
An all the above can make a crocodile rally scary.
Does being under murky water provide Cover or Concealment? I can't find a good indicator.
*Sticks head in murky water. Tries to look around. can't see anything*
Concealment.
*sticks hand in murky water, hand goes through*
Not cover.
If the croc were sitting, waiting, concealed (stealthed), at the edge of the water could it conceivably: surprise attack - grab - death roll - move (dragging the victim down 15 feet)? Or does the move have to happen in the next round after a successful check to maintain the grapple?
1) Stealth check (it has bonuses) vs pc's perception. If successful surprise round
2) Surprise round 0 : Croc either partial charges or attacks if the party is within 10 feet of the water.
Bites.
CMB's to death roll. Either way the Crocs turn is done, it can't move because you only get a standard action in the surprise round.
3) Round 1, Croc uses the grappling option to move his foe. If it fails he looses his grip on the party member (because this is also the check to maintain the grapple) If he succeeds he deals bite damage and moves the party member half his speed, and probably places him away from himself in the deeper water.
I figured it as...
[Precombat]
Partially submerged, Stealth using water as concealment/cover.
Party approaches within 10'.
[surprise round]
Bite, grab. 5' step back (now fully submerged) as free action.
[round 1+]
Move into deeper water, and use death-roll.
Being deathrolled underwater would suck.
As to being prone underwater that would depend on how deep the water was. Most of the time(IRL) the water is not so deep that you can't stand up, and still be under water.
I almost had a player drown because he was tripped while fighting in 4 or 5 feet of water.
Bite, grab. 5' step back (now fully submerged) as free action.
You can't move while in a grapple without using the move grapple option as a standard action. The croc would have to take a -20 to not be considered grapple to make a 5 foot step while holding someone.
I post corrected.
Thanks to everyone for helpful rules applications here.
I'm looking at the Dire Crocodile for this future scenario.
Dire croc has a +8 to stealth in water, and a +30 to grapple attempts, so could it conceivably (assuming it was successful with a stealth check, and the PC was right at the water's edge) get that surprise attack, take that -20 to not be considered grappled itself, and then (again assuming success on the attack and grapple check)use the Death Roll ability to apply further bite damage, the prone condition, and move 15 feet into the water?
Or does that move action still need to take place in the second round?
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Resurrection!
Ok so I had the same question as the OP and reading multiple other threads the correct answer seemed vague... A lot of good points and interpretations were made to address this ability but one thing I found has me convinced on how it is intended to function.
"On a successful grapple check" is part of the phrasing that confuses most people. Grapple check is to maintain an established hold? Initiating the grapple is considered a check? They both are used for Death Roll. I am basing this off of the FAQ for Constrict...
When a creature with constrict grapples a foe, when does it deal constrict damage?
A creature with constrict deals this additional damage every time it makes a successful grapple check against a foe. This includes the first check to establish the grapple (such as when using the grab universal monster rule).
That being the case, Death Roll would work just like that.
Breakdown:
1. Croc hits with Bite-croc succeeds grapple check from Grab-croc uses Death Roll
2. Croc maintains grapple to move, damage or pin- croc uses Death Roll
No trip attempts, no triple bite damage(XD) and its not a trap. It is savagery meant to keep people afraid of getting bit by one of the most perfected predators and make these creatures as deadly as they should be.
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Necro post.. Is there a ruling on this yet? If it works like constrict, then there should be..
A creature with constrict deals this additional damage every time it makes a successful grapple check against a foe. This includes the first check to establish the grapple (such as when using the grab universal monster rule).
—Jason Bulmahn, 11/24/10
No there's nothing new on this ability. I view it as special option for grapple like options like pin, damage, move, crocs get deathroll added to that list.
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A grapple check is a grapple check. The roll to establish a grapple is a grapple check, as is the roll to maintain a grapple. Barring errata (which is unlikely at this point), death roll triggers on either of these so long as it's successful. Constrict has the same wording and has been FAQ-clarified to work exactly the same way--in fact, as mentioned above, the only difference between death roll and constrict is that the grapplee is also knocked prone.
TL;DR: Death roll is awesome, which makes up for the few creatures that have it being (mostly) unable to make multiple attacks in a round.