I'm pretty sure I know the answer to this already, but would appreciate an official response.
If I find a link to the actual PDF for Pathfinder Chronicles: Guide to the River Kingdoms somewhere on the internet, is that pirated, or does Paizo actually consent to this information being publicly available.
For the record, I just received my physical copy of that book in the mail yesterday, thanks!
Thanks Gorb, but I would really like an official response, for educational purposes...
CEO
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Thanks Gorb, but I would really like an official response, for educational purposes...
The only official way to get Paizo PDFs is through paizo.com. We haven't given anybody permission to sell PDFs outside of paizo.com and we most definitely do NOT condone anybody giving away our PDFs on various torrents and pirate websites.
-Lisa
Thank you, Lisa.
Removed a post. Please don't discuss methods of pirating on our forums.
Avast! Them dirty pirates need to be keelhauled! Arrrrr!!!
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Senior Software Developer
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Pretty much any description of how our watermarking system works, or how watermarks might hypothetically have been removed, is off-limits here.
Also note that the rule of thumb is not, as you said, "If you find yourself in possession of a Pathfinder PDF that does not contain your Paizo website username and email address embedded in the header and footer of each page of the PDF (a watermark) you have a pirated PDF."
Rather it is: "If you find yourself in possession of a Paizo PDF that you did not download yourself from paizo.com you have a pirated PDF." Not all of our PDFs have watermarks, but all are copyrighted, and none are licensed for downloading from any other website.
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Chief Technical Officer
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I will note that we very occasionally provide specially-made product preview PDFs to press outlets, such as the 4-page preview of the Beginner Box that was made available from Game Trade Magazine's site. *Complete* products in PDF form, though, are only available from paizo.com.
(We also sell ePub—but not PDF—editions of our Pathfinder Tales products through Apple's iBookstore.)
I found myself with a question the other day that regarded PDF's and usage. When I purchase a physical book, I can send it home with a member of my playgroup to be returned, but when it comes to PDF's, as I understand the license, I can not do this, as they might make a copy. Am I correct on this?
I'm pretty sure I know the answer to this already, but would appreciate an official response.
If I find a link to the actual PDF for Pathfinder Chronicles: Guide to the River Kingdoms somewhere on the internet, is that pirated, or does Paizo actually consent to this information being publicly available.
For the record, I just received my physical copy of that book in the mail yesterday, thanks!
I have a couple questions related to this:
If I have the PDF which I purchased from Paizo and I upload it to my webspace for use in the cloud (such as with my tablet which has limited HD space...but I use it were there is unlimited internet access), personally accessing those from anywhere is not piracy, correct?
And hypothetically, if my webspace is shared (without encouraging the copying or distribution of physical or digital copies)...how is that any different than having a physical book several friends can look it (as long as they do not save it to their HD)? If the shared webspace is illegal, is it not also illegal to allow someone to share your physical book?
Finally, a group of us who are excited about Pathfinder Online have been discussing making a wiki (we will RP it as a library) and a guild of scribes focused on building it. I know in academia, even significantly rewritten passages can be considered plagiarism if the idea and flow remains the same. Is it even legal for us to make a wiki concerning the Golarion world? Since everything we do will just be a modification of what has been published and copyrighted by Paizo?
To clarify, I am asking these questions to try to stay legal...we have not done anything yet (this was just our plan). Until Nihimon brought up the concern, I had not considered any of what I just asked to be illegal or a problem...but now, upon consideration, it seems everything might be against the law.
Any advice (PM is welcome too) would be welcome so we know if we should not move forward with our intent...thanks much!
I have a related question. One of my players showed me a Paizo pdf with someone else's watermark. When I asked about it he said he got it in trade for something else. Is that on the up and up?
Only if the previous owner didn't keep any copies of the traded book. However, if I understand method the Paizo shop is working the previous owner still technically has access to the file from the shop itself. So to comply with the requirement of not keeping a copy for oneself in case of resale of digital files he should inform Paizo of the transaction so they could remove the file from his downloads as he has no longer the right to it. Also, because the item of transaction is watermarked a written contract between the traders would be a good thing.
If the file was a free bonus to printed edition as a part of subscription it probably could not be traded separately of the physical book.At least that how it should work in theory in Europe, in US it could work differently.
I found myself with a question the other day that regarded PDF's and usage. When I purchase a physical book, I can send it home with a member of my playgroup to be returned, but when it comes to PDF's, as I understand the license, I can not do this, as they might make a copy. Am I correct on this?
Gray area about being allowed to do so - it still might falls under fair use (more or less in Europe it might be considered such) as long as you do not use it yourself at the same time. For sure you would be held responsible if he would make a copy as it is your obligation to take a reasonable steps to prevent unlawful distribution of material you purchased.
it is your obligation to take a reasonable steps to prevent unlawful distribution of material you purchased.
Can you describe what you think this would entail? If I have a shared living arrangement, do I have this same obligation for my physical books?
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Chief Technical Officer
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Copyright law as it pertains to this sort of issue is still being tested in the courts, as I understand it, but the US Copyright Office point of view (again, as I understand it) is, in essence, that there's a key distinction between loaning a book and loaning a PDF: in order to loan a PDF, you generally have to make a copy of it; that's obviously not true of a book. And copyright, after all, is all about who has the right to make copies of a work.
Our policy is that we sell PDFs for personal use only. Placing them anywhere where anyone can get at them is definitely *not* ok, and that can get your ability to buy PDFs from us taken away.
The OP seems unaware of what pirating or watermarking is or what it means.
Not even remotely true. Not only am I well aware of what pirating is, I am extremely opposed to it. I will not have anything to do with pirated content of any kind, and I will step forward and take action if it's even remotely related to a company I want to succeed.
I simply saw something I was uncomfortable with and asked for a bright line answer before I took action to remove it.
I have a couple questions related to this:
If I have the PDF which I purchased from Paizo and I upload it to my webspace for use in the cloud (such as with my tablet which has limited HD space...but I use it were there is unlimited internet access), personally accessing those from anywhere is not piracy, correct?
And hypothetically, if my webspace is shared (without encouraging the copying or distribution of physical or digital copies)...how is that any different than having a physical book several friends can look it (as long as they do not save it to their HD)? If the shared webspace is illegal, is it not also illegal to allow someone to share your physical book?
Finally, a group of us who are excited about Pathfinder Online have been discussing making a wiki (we will RP it as a library) and a guild of scribes focused on building it. I know in academia, even significantly rewritten passages can be considered plagiarism if the idea and flow remains the same. Is it even legal for us to make a wiki concerning the Golarion world? Since everything we do will just be a modification of what has been published and copyrighted by Paizo?
To clarify, I am asking these questions to try to stay legal...we have not done anything yet (this was just our plan). Until Nihimon brought up the concern, I had not considered any of what I just asked to be illegal or a problem...but now, upon consideration, it seems everything might be against the law.
Any advice (PM is welcome too) would be welcome...
KitNyx, I would point out that a Pathfinder/Golarion wiki already exists here, and yes, you're prohibited from lifting text whole cloth from the source material. (PathfinderWiki operates under the Community Use Policy.) If you're looking at building a wiki more focused on what Pathfinder Online is revealing, I would wait to see what kind of community use policies Goblinworks chooses to enact, as well as familiarize yourself with our existing Community Use Policy.
If I have the PDF which I purchased from Paizo and I upload it to my webspace for use in the cloud (such as with my tablet which has limited HD space...but I use it were there is unlimited internet access), personally accessing those from anywhere is not piracy, correct?And hypothetically, if my webspace is shared (without encouraging the copying or distribution of physical or digital copies)...how is that any different than having a physical book several friends can look it (as long as they do not save it to their HD)? If the shared webspace is illegal, is it not also illegal to allow someone to share your physical book?
This falls under the same problem that causes netflix to increase it's online streaming price every year and a half or so as their library increases.
It's perfectly legal to buy anything and loan it to other people, and even charge a fee, this is granted under the "First-Sale Doctrine". But the First Sale Doctrine doesn't apply to licensed software or non-physical entities. I'm not sure if it's illegal to use a cloud drive that only you have access to, but i know it is illegal to put copyrighted content on a cloud drive that other people have access to.
Interesting side-note, if you ever see "not for resale" printed on something handed to you(assuming you are in the united states, it's not a illegal copy, and not digitally licensed media). You can actually sell it and be well within the law. So you can walk out of McDonalds with a bucket of ketchup packets, empty them into bottles, and sell them to people.
...is it really a surprise people are pirating the books?
I haven't seen anyone doing so in my group, thankfully, though I was perplexed at the fact that the player who showed the least interest in Pathfinder went and bought the Advanced Player Guide when it came out. Then again, he has no computer, so he couldn't have pirated it in any case.
Are you comparing Pathfinder with a steaming diaper?
Really have to ask that.
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Since Gary has an almost 3 week old at home, that might explain the comparison.
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And so long as the comparions is in Paizo's favour, I don't see a problem. ;)
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I'd like to take this opportunity to thank Paizo for their open content, especially the PRD. Given the situation with piracy, it's incredibly wise and helpful of them to make it possible to play the game legally without any purchase at all, and I hope that decision pays dividends for them.
Well said Evil Lincoln, i can join this.
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I have been curious about how piracy laws apply to play by post though. If I'm DM and a player wants to use a feat I don't have access to (say in a book I don't have and isn't on d20pfsrd.com or prd) is it legal for him to copy and paste the text of the feat and send it to me in a pm?
Another interesting question is what happens to someones paizo account (or RPGnow, or DDi, or itunes, or amazon accounts) if they die - can they gift their pdfs/ebooks/music to their heirs?
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@Toadkiller Dog - Actually, it is not an idiotic question.
I am almost 65, and it is time my wife and I redo our wills. In NY state, if you don't do it every 5(?) years or so, the rules change and then the estate gets screwed by NY.
I was actually going to send an email to customer service, or perhaps Vic, and ask that exact question. Both my son and grandson play Pathfinder, and I would want them to have access to all my PDFs.
-- david
Papa.DRB
Send that email, and I hope it sets an awesome precedent.
Erm, leave your account name and login together with all your "Last Will" stuff, once the inheritor logs he/she can change personal details and addresses?
Which does bring up a rather interesting question: can one trade his/her Paizo.com account?
I guess not because Paizo.com acount seems to be ongoing service to the user, not his property. This would also prevent inheritance of the account. Rights to specific books in pdf form should be inheritable, however.
EDIT:
I was actually going to send an email to customer service, or perhaps Vic, and ask that exact question. Both my son and grandson play Pathfinder, and I would want them to have access to all my PDFs.
-- david
Papa.DRB
I would not be surprised if Paizo asked you to name a single owner for each book in pdf format instead of giving the shared ownership of your collection to avoid problems that shared ownership would create with digital materials (i.e. creation of multiple copies for use by multiple owners). At least that's my guess.
Removed a post and replies to it. Calling people idiots is rude.
In all seriousness, if you have a relevant question and are considering sending an email, please do! For something like this, you can send it to webmaster@paizo.com.
Can we get the Paizo stance on inheritance of bought pdfs once the matter is clarified? Of course it may take a lot of time, acquiring legal counsel and all that.
...is it really a surprise people are pirating the books?
I guess that depends on the society you live in. From what I know, piracy is more liberally used in Europe than in States (which makes sense, since biggest torrent trackers are European-based).
Where I come from, piracy is not only NOT frowned upon by people, it is seen as a normal way to get stuff from internet. I buy my books from Paizo (more accurately, from Book Depository), but I do that because I support the company, not because I think piracy is wrong.
Out of 12-15 people I know that are playing Pathfinder, three people (myself included) actually buy books.
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I guess that depends on the society you live in. From what I know, piracy is more liberally used in Europe than in States (which makes sense, since biggest torrent trackers are European-based).
The European numbers vary significantly by country - it's significantly more common in much of Scandinavia, Southern Europe (Spain's Europe's worst offender), Central and Eastern Europe than it is in Western/Northern Europe.
The US and parts of East Asia have some of the lowest piracy rates - mainly due to legal reasons. Piracy (of digital media of all types, not just books) is most prevalent in China, Russia, much of South America, and parts of South and Shoutheast Asia.
Aside from legal reasons (high/low disincentive), the availability/cost (high/low incentive) of legitimate material is a key component in creating a culture of piracy. A study last year by the US's Social Science Research Council found that legit DVDs of mainstream Hollywood blockbusters were retailing at the equivalent (PPP) of over USD70 in Russia and over USD600 in India. Once a piracy community is established around something that is either unavailable or widely perceived as unaffordable (usually either music or movies) it then expands to include other material that is generally available & affordable (typically TV shows & books).
I buy my books from Paizo (more accurately, from Book Depository)
Not your FLGS? Shame on you! ;)
Aside from legal reasons (high/low disincentive), the availability/cost (high/low incentive) of legitimate material is a key component in creating a culture of piracy.
I agree. Here (Serbia), there's no legal ratifications AT ALL. Everybody's free to download what they want. That's one of the reasons there are a whole bunch of protests around Europe against the ACTA.
Not your FLGS? Shame on you! ;)
Our FLGSs don't sell Pathfinder, I'm afraid. Or at least not enough. Warhammer and board games are all the rage here. Even those that do sell RPG books, stock up on 4e D&D, World of Darkness, etc... I think I saw a few core books (at about 30% more expensive price than BD), but there's no market for Pathfinder in Belgrade.
Not your FLGS? Shame on you! ;)
I don't HAVE a local FLGS, so nyah. I get my Paizo stuff (and my used 3E/3.5 stuff) off Amazon.
I did buy my Pathfinder Core Rulebook and Bestiary 1 at a FLGS, but then they went out of business. I got my Advanced Players Guide at Barnes and Noble. Everything else, I got online.