| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
Well, we all know how much I like making new campaign settings and hearing myself talk. ()
()
So, this thread got me thinking, what would happen to Golarion if it went through what amounts to a Time of Troubles-like event? Somehow, in some way, someone managed to weaponize all WMD-like whatever was done to Aroden, but in doing so it lessened it's power and instead of destroying the gods it dropped them to mortality: what happens now?
Discuss. And let's look forward to a new and <brighter/darker [choose appropriate]> Golarion!
(Edited to add the actual links, deerrrrrp to me)
I am so sad that this got nothing. :(
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
A lot of angry or confused epic level people running about. Now without the fear of godly warfare to keep them from direct action.
Also, without the gods the natural and super natural order starts getting out of control. Starting small at first but getting continually larger and more dangerous.
Additionally, there would be a rash of assassinations as some folks think there gods aren't worthy anymore (Say Asmodeus).
Now that I think about it there would also be a mad rush to the star stone.
I'm so happy! :D
Also, will comment more when I have time.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
There will be rumblings from the planet itself. After a while, a mortal and very pissed, and excessively hungry, Rovagug will emerge now that his bonds are weakened.
Cayden Caylian will wake up in a temple of his with a massive bender, shrug and decide on something fun to do now that he is mortal again.
Aroden will decide to stop serving as a servitor and go for the Starstone.
Cayden made me laugh. I do think he'd begin a number of epic projects (and leave them to others to finish) to get reinstated into divinity/destroy evil deities.
I like the idea of assassins everywhere. I'm pretty sure that this will take six, very specific forms (amongst others):
1) Norgberger will be busy (rival gods ain't gonna assassinate themselves, you know)
2) Asmodeus will be busy (generally also working to stave off number 1 from happening)
3) Nocticula will be busy (generally also to undermine one and two)
4) Razmir will be busy (generally to undermine all of them)
5) The Kingdom of Man will be very, very busy... on the offensive, this time
6) The Red Mantis will be busy (countering number one, two, three, four, and five, while prohibiting the deaths of one and two)
I actually hadn't considered the implications on Rovagug's imprisonment.
I'm actually curious about Echo of Divinity Lost, as it claims not to be Aroden. Still, I'd expect that said entity does, one way or the other, head toward the starstone to take the test (or does some sort of similar epic feats of tremendousness).
I totally agree that there'd be more than one mad rush for the starstone, however.
As for the slow unraveling of the natural order... it's curious but the druids might undergo a massive crisis of faith, and may work feverishly to reinstall deities in their "rightful place" to fix the balance. That's an interesting hook with all of this madness.
Curiously, I'd say that Urgathoa might have the upper hand in such a situation. She lost her divinity sure... but she's still "immortal" (ish), what with being an undead and all.
Hm. Sarenrae too, as she's an angel prior to her apotheosis. Asmodeus too, considering. I wonder what Desna would revert to?
OR (I'm curious to see what you guys think): do you think they'd lose that status, too? Would they drop into truly mortal incarnations, forced into temporary, aging flesh? Curious thoughts that just occurred.
> Drop the divinity, keep the rest
(ex: even though they're not "gods" anymore, Cayden et. al. are still functionally immortal on a limited scale, but able to be killed, Asmodeus is still a super-special ultra-unique devil)
Revert to a kind of "pre-divine"/"sub-divine" state
(ex: Asmodeus -> Devil; Serenrae -> Angel, Cayden -> human, etc)
Devolve into a truly mortal "shell" (probably focused by the centers of their greatest worship/their perceived self)
(ex: Serenrae is now a strawberry-blonde Kelishite, Calistria is now an actual elf, Asmodeus is now a "devilishly"* handsome Chelaxian, etc)
*
Actually become new, entirely mortal Incarnations of themselves, born to mortal (if devout) parents
(ex: Iomedae literally reborn as an infant from parents, probably taking part in the Shining Crusade)
Some combination thereof
(ex: Asmodeus -> devil, Cayden -> human, Torag -> dwarf, Pharasma -> newborn babe)
Something else I haven't thought of or listed here
(ex: I don't know, I haven't thought of it!)
Would this effect demon lords? Archdukes of hell? The Eldest?
EDIT: changed a few "*" to "" because I thought it worked better.
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Hmmm...
I think, like FR's "Time of Troubles" you'd probably have one Deity that would stay a Deity-- y'know, in this case: Pharasma.
Because 'Fate' is likely to stay 'Fate', THE Gatekeeper of Death still has a job to do, and if it happens at all... Pharasma is probably either involved, or somehow aware of it and having a role in watching it unfold. On the other hand, Pharasma is unlikely to directly interfere in any of it-- and being 'fate', also to keep things fair, may stop granting spells to her Clerics also.
The rest of it sounds... interesting. I didn't like "Time of Troubles" much, the way it was done in FR-- but that was more about poor execution, not poor idea.
A campaign I'd like to see that kind of touches upon the edges of this (for all I know it's already been done) would be one right at-around the time of Aroden's "Death", dealing with the immediate repercussions of that.
I agree with the ToT execution rather than idea.
I was thinking "Groteus" would be a rather appropo deity-to-remain-so.
Also, it would be interesting if Pharasma was, too, stripped of her divinity, but was more along the lines of a Reincarnating Druid archetype. That would function pretty well in both ways.
Alternatively, her Aeons would probably still be keeping on the keepin' on, even while she was "down below". Still, I'm not opposed to her remaining. I kind of like it the more I think of it, really.
Hm. To clarify, 'cause I totally wasn't clear:
I like the idea of the Time of Troubles far more than I like the execution. I was agreeing with Finn on that. Wow, my sentence above looks like exactly the opposite of my position. Whoooooooops!
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
> Devolve into a truly mortal "shell" (probably focused by the centers of their greatest worship/their perceived self)
(ex: Serenrae is now a strawberry-blonde Kelishite, Calistria is now an actual elf, Asmodeus is now a "devilishly"* handsome Chelaxian, etc)
I like this idea the best. But I think you gotta figure out HOW they got into this position in the first place. Destruction of Starstone? Whatever killed Aroden finally got to the others? One of the other gods do it? And then what I'd do as a world-creater GM once I figure it out....don't tell anyone how it happened, just go with it. But then do the mortals of the world know? If so, there's a thousand theories floating around as to what happened.....And when you do your campaign for this, it'll be your players that have to figure this out...
|
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
Were I Norgorber, I would set up myself and my agents all around the Starstone (ooh, how convenient, I already have a lot of followers in Absalom!) and assassinate the hell out of any now-mortal deities headed in to get a power-up.
Achaekek might have one of two scary ideas;
1) He sets up camp, along with hundreds of Red Mantis Assassins, at the Starstone itself, defending any ex-gods who show up to reclaim their divinity, and end up in a shadow war with Norgorber's servants (who have to identify and kill ex-gods before they reach the safety of Achaekek-held territory, making all of Absalom into an ever-shifting maze of 'safe zones' and 'death traps' and 'total war zones' as they exchange territory and strike against each other, leaving the average Abalomi citizen terrified to leave their house.
2) Same, but he intends to destroy any ex-gods who show up. They aren't gods anymore, so he's got *zero* loyalty to helping them become that way again...
Nethys, Irori and Urgathoa have all stepped up the ladder the hard way, and might have no interest in the stupid Starstone anyway. Urgathoa could *possibly* set up shop in Geb, but Arazni does not seem to me like a terribly friendly hostess to a rival undead death-goddess type. Nethys could similarly turn to Nex, and attempt to secure arcane patronage in his attempt to reclaim divinity. Irori could just go meditate on Jalmeray, attempting to perfect himself by avoiding the distractions of all this Starstone-fighting and whatnot.
Asmodeus and Lamashtu are going to have far bigger fish to fry. Lamashtu losing power is only going to make Nocticula, Pazuzu, etc. regard her with hungry eyes, and Asmodeus suffering a demotion is going to put big smiles (that hide knives) on the faces of every Arch-Devil below him. My money is on Mephistopheles being the first to move, although he'll manipulate someone else into making the first *overt* move, only to be stymied by Dispater, who, inexplicably, *defends* the weakened Asmodeus (strange sort of arch-devil, Dispater. His loyalty might even be greater than his ambition!).
Zon-Kuthon has an entire nation of worshippers, and might attempt to take shelter there. He might find an unpleasant surprise, as his high priests expect him to enjoy receiving the gift of suffering as much as they do, and strap him down to decipher holy lessons from the screams of their god... If not, he'll probably attempt to kill his sister, during the confusion. Alternately, being unpredictable, he might attempt to shield his sister from other attempts to kill her (for inexplicable reasons that could be as simple as 'nobody gets to kill her but me!'). He's whacky like that.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
The fall to mortality might actually balance Zon-Kuthon out and might give a clue to what turned him.
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Hmmmm.....these are all interesting ideas that are making me realize just how cool the Golarian deities actually are. For awhile i've been 'meh' on them, but thinking about it, having a cool story/campaign that involved them more would really get me more interested in them. Set's idea for Zon-Kuthon is a really neat plot. Having players realize that he knows whats going on and they have to bust into Nidal and rescue him from his own priests....do they get there in time to save his recently restored sanity? very interesting....
That's one of the reasons I like doing this kind of thought-exercise, actually. We know what the world is now (more or less), but it also helps us get more of a grip on our own understandings of it.
As in, I'd not have seen Zon go off and try to murder Shelyn - I'd be much more inclined to suspect that he'd try to protect her from all the other monstrously evil gods that attempt to kill her. (I agree with virtually everything else Set says, however.) I've always seen his protection of his sister as that one, last, perverted spark of goodness in him. Somehow his law aspect demands that he respect one, single bond of loyalty and she was it. It combines with a sense of self-shame, and self-loathing (For truly - why would he torture himself so, if he didn't, on some level, loath himself?), and so on to prohibit him from violating the one sacred bond he violated already (the quarrel that cause him to leave to become Zon-Kuthon in the first place). Add that to his probably twisted senses, where he convinces himself that "she feels more pain this way" (and he might be right), he works to keep himself in the maddened state away from her by using his own nature against himself.
I've also always imagined Dou-Bral in some sort of spiritual "holding cell" - like a spirit inside a demiplane inside the god Zon-Kuthon (), through which he can do little but watch and speak to himself. Literally he's his only conscience as he witnesses all the tragedy and attempts to guide the madness that's truly behind the wheel the only way he can.
I find your concept interesting, NPC - the restoration of Zon-Kuthon. It links his divinity to his evil, which in itself is an interesting conceit. sirmattdusty, you idea is also fascinating.
Set: Urgathoa setting up shop in Geb would be fascinating. I could see that. Equally interesting would be Nex's response to a (now suddenly sane, maybe?) Nethys. Both (from what I can tell) Osirioni people setting up south of Osirion in two countries that seem tailor made for them.
Upon thinking on it... Irori might not be touched, if this is an Inner Sea thing! He might be fine, kickin' it back in Vudra.
So, hey, what about that Gozreh, eh?
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I got nuthin' on Gozreh.
[tangent]
Hey, wouldn't it be funkadelic if the Eye of Abendago were a reaction to the Worldwound's existence, a sign of the painful itchy wound that is the Worldwound festering on the 'body' of Gozreh? Nature (and the god thereof) itself recoiling at the intrusion of the Abyss into the mortal plane by going absolutely nuts (kind of like a systemic allergic reaction, which can occur someone total unexpected).
Alternately, or, perhaps, additionally, perhaps the planes exist in some sort of precarious state of equilibrium, and the intrusion of the Abyss into Golarion is causing a section of Golarion to intrude into the Abyss, with the Eye of Abendago being the symptom, a massive storm system that isn't just ravaging some coastal nations in this world, but also crossing planes and wreaking havoc on a layer of the Abyss? [/tangent]
Anywho, the reason for that tangent is my wondering what sort of things could go kerflooey if the gods aren't 'at their posts.' Pharasma being mortalized could end up going in a 'Death takes a holiday' sort of direction, with people not dying the way they should, and Urgathoa is likely the 'subject zero' to every disease *ever,* and would leave plagues in her wake if she went for a walk. Erastil taking a break could cause all sorts of community / family related wonkiness, as could Abadar and banking / trade, not merely regulated by his priests and countinghouses, but also by his direct intervention, from time to time.
Gozreh was just the first to occur to me, as animals, plants, weather, etc. could behave unusually when s/he is 'AWOL.'
Silence from Torag could lead to entire dwarven communities locking their doors and attempting to 'ride it out,' fearing the sort of breakdown that followed the death of Aroden. Ruthless Toragite 'inquisitors' could roam the halls of stone, seeking out any sign that dwarves are turning to demon lords or archdevils or whatever, during this time, fearing the Five Kingdoms turning into the new Cheliax (and, in their zeal, perhaps driving frightened dwarves right into the hands of diabolatry!). Nobody expects the Dwarven Inquisition!
Silence from Calistria could lead to some very long-lived and grudge-holding elven ex-clerics who feel jilted that she dumped them like last weeks porridge coming out of the woodwork for a chance to take vengeance on the goddess thereof and 'give her a taste of her own medicine.'
My biggest thematic quibble with the Time of Troubles, overall, is that it made the gods feel very transitory. An elf in that setting could very well have been old enough to have outlived *three* gods of magic. That's just silly. Can you imagine being an elven cleric, and accepting as part of your religious / history training that there's a better than average chance that you'll not only outlive your god, but probably her successor as well? By 'going big' as they did with the Time of Troubles, it felt like they instead just made everything small instead. A deity felt more like a corporate executive, who might stay on for a two year term, and then get replaced, who you might as well not make friend with, since he'll be gone soon enough, instead of a vast and awe-inspiring figure who may have overseen the creation of the world and be around to turn off the lights when it all ends.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
What if Dou-Bral was returned to his former self when stripped of divinity and now tries to prevent return of divinity to gods to avoid becoming Zon-Kuthon again? And with his sister teared between helping her brother remain self (and thus keeping all other deities mortal) and helping return gods to divinity?
Or maybe she would be the accidental cause for the loss of divinity when he found a way to cure her brother - which was also off switch for divine power?
|
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
I think if you're going to run this as a campaign, I'd probably just pick a few of the deities you know you want to involve in the grand scheme of the campaign itself and just have the other deities listed as a little side note. Unless you want your players to deal with all 20 core ex-deities of course.
If i remember the time of troubles novels correctly, other than magic going haywire, which was a BIG deal, i don't think the universe went too far out of whack. I mean it did in the case of magic, but i don't remember hurricanes everywhere or animals going insane, or the earth being torn asunder ect. And I can't remember if mortals that were killed couldn't die or if they went to the Plane of the Dead and stood around till Cyric took over.
This is how i would see a couple of things:
First, all the deities would be 20th level NPCs with class levels appropriate to what they were as deities - Nethys a 20lvl wizard for example. They would look like whatever nationality/race most associated with - Sarenrae/Qadiran, Torag/dwarf, Irori/Vudran, Asmodeus/tiefling, ect. I think with the exception of divine casters no longer receiving spells, I'm not sure how else this would physically manifest in the world. Unlike Mystra, does Nethys keep magic under control? Would the shadow over Nidal disappear? Does Gozreh keep Nature's balance or isn't that part of the Green Faith?
Asmodeus, being all 'i'm the best devil of the bunch' informs the Queen of Cheliax that he's in charge now and she serves him. only question is would all the other devils still follow him like the strict heirarchy hell is supposed to be or try to take his place and become the new lord of hell?
I think the idea of Zon-Kuthon being captured by his priests and tortured is a compelling idea. Shelyn is hellbent on getting him out of there. I think it would be a good plot if this whole thing were her fault to begin with in an effort to reclaim her brother's sanity.
Cayden probably would become depressed...afterall, he's practically lost the ultimate 'buzz' and there's not enough ale or drugs in the world to get it back. How ironic would it be for the players to stumble upon the ex-god of parties & booze only to find him all emo about everything now.....that or he's a raging alchoholic....
Gorum...mercenary.
Nethys...schizophrenic and in Nex trying to figure out what happened.
Sarenrae would have alot of enemies from alot of bad guys....and Taldor. Her biggest issue i think would be to track down Rovagug and kill him while he's mortal. Maybe the whole thing is her fault - she realized Rovagug was close to escaping and figured out how to make him mortal and kill him once and for all, but it backfired in a way not even she comprehends?
Calistria.....people would think she's in a brothel somewhere, but I think she'd be the deity most intent on solving what happened, if nothing more than to find and kill the fool that put her in this situation in the first place. Chick fight between Calistria & Shelyn?
See, okay, here's the thing: unlike my other two worlds (go add to them, people, links're in my first post!) I'm not entirely certain I'm going to run this as a campaign, on the whole. But I might. I also might just run parts of it.
That said, I think coming together and determining this stuff...
a) ... helps all of us get a handle on the actual campaign setting as is... at least as it is to us. (kind of like how you, sirmattdusty, realized just how cool the deities can be.)
b) ... allows for an interesting series of thought experiments which may, yet, result in an actual campaign ("Unexplored Realms: Alternate Prime Materials" or "Boundless Worlds: Golarion's Twighlight" or whatever).
c) ... allows us to come up with really awesome ideas that can be put in a campaign at some point (either in part or entire) - such as that super-compelling Zon-Kuthon thing, and also that amazing tangent on the possible realities of the Eye of Abendigo.
d) ... brings up interesting questions on the nature of Golarion:
>>> are the base functions of the universe tied to their divine masters (unlike Faerun, save for the Weave)?
>>> are the gods' worshipers or history a more important association (for example: would they manifest like their worshipers or what they were before)?
>>> who decides (and how) what happens in the world?
>>> would Asmodeus' contracts continue to function if he was undone?
>>> what would happen if Pharasma was taken down from her throne? (although you guys questioning this made me reconsider: what if Pharasma was the only one that didn't come down... she might have more than a few suspicious enemies after her...)
>>> etc
All these points are quite solid. Figuring out the gods' personalities is pretty amazing, too. And actually, I entirely agree with your assessment of Calistria (and peoples' presumptions about her) - she'd totally use lust however she could in order to take her sweet, sweet revenge against whoever it is that wronged her, but she's not actually the goddess of over-indulgence... that's Urgathoa.
Three way "chick-fight" between Calistria, Seranrae, and Shelyn. OR they might team up with Desna to form a "power quatro" and murderize Rovagug, Asmodeus, and Lamashtu (if Pazuzu didn't beat them to it)... an alliance which would break apart once Zon-Kuthon (and/or Urgathoa?) came into the mix. One interesting idea (cribbed entirely from Y: The Last Man) is that each of them did something that could have caused this, but none of them know for sure who's fault it "really is". This could lead to some very interesting investigations.
So yeah, this is very possibly a potential campaign to run, but it's also for all of you guys more than just me. I want us all to think together and come up with new questions and new answers to those questions.
|
|
My biggest thematic quibble with the Time of Troubles, overall, is that it made the gods feel very transitory. An elf in that setting could very well have been old enough to have outlived *three* gods of magic. That's just silly. Can you imagine being an elven cleric, and accepting as part of your religious / history training that there's a better than average chance that you'll not only outlive your god, but probably her successor as well? By 'going big' as they did with the Time of Troubles, it felt like they instead just made everything small instead. A deity felt more like a corporate executive, who might stay on for a two year term, and then get replaced, who you might as well not make friend with, since he'll be gone soon enough, instead of a vast and awe-inspiring figure who may have overseen the creation of the world and be around to turn off the lights when it all ends.
Already said my piece on not liking the way FR did 'Time of Troubles'. (then again, my opinion on FR in general: "Forgotten Realms? They should have stayed forgotten!"
However... transitory Gods? Ummm.... yeah. Aroden died. I get the feeling he's not the only God who's expired so far-- he's just the most recent one. Several Gods are hopped-up former mortals (Cayden, Norgorber, Iomedae, Urgathoa, and I think I'm forgetting at least one or two others. Sarenrae was an Angel who became a Deity; Asmodeus a Devil who rose up himelf-- pretty sure there's a few others who, while they weren't mortal to start with, still attained Deity-hood from some lesser status.
So, transitory Gods in Golarion? Why, yes, most of them in some sense are. I don't think some episode that shook up the list of current Gods would be as big a shock or as much of a problem to Golarion as it was in FR, especially if it were handled better than that other situation was.
BTW-- lovin' the rest of your post, Set.
|
|
Does Gozreh keep Nature's balance or isn't that part of the Green Faith?
I think Nature keeps itself going, without needing the personification of Gozreh to stay in balance (a la 'the Green Faith')-- not only that, but I think Druids keep their powers and spells, since they draw power directly from nature, not from a Deity.
Regarding what happens to (arcane) magic? Keeps running, doesn't actually need a deity to continue functioning like Deity-granted magic does.
Regarding what happens to Death? I stand by my plot-point, that out of all the Gods... Pharasma (Fate/Death) is the one who remains a Deity and keeps the place running... Either that, or we find out that while Pharasma is the personified Deity of Death & Fate, that Death itself is a power above and beyond that personification, impersonal, unreachable, beyond mortal knowledge-- and it's still there, keeping the place running while Pharasma (the personified deity) is taking a mortal spell (voluntarily or involuntarily).
For that matter, anyone else read Neil Gaiman's "Death: the High Cost of Living" miniseries? Maybe this is all happening because Pharasma has to spend a little time as a mortal so that she can experience life as the mortals she must judge do... and for some reason, all the rest of the deities got dragged down into mortal form right along with her. Even if that's not the case, if Pharasma becomes a mortal too, "High Cost of Living" is not a bad take on what Pharasma's mortal spell is like.
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
One interesting idea (cribbed entirely from Y: The Last Man) is that each of them did something that could have caused this, but none of them know for sure who's fault it "really is". This could lead to some very interesting investigations.
I'm really liking a lot of the ideas I'm seeing on this thread, both as thought experiments and as possible threads for an actual campaign. But, I especially this idea of Tacticslion-- that it's not just one Deity's fault this event occurred, but rather is the fault of many Deities. The scenario that Calistria, Sarenrae, and Shelyn-- each trying to do something wonderful, but in unknowing conjuction creating something catastrophic-- suggested by Tacticslion, et al., is a really nifty way to do it.
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Were I Norgorber, I would set up myself and my agents all around the Starstone (ooh, how convenient, I already have a lot of followers in Absalom!) and assassinate the hell out of any now-mortal deities headed in to get a power-up.
Achaekek might have one of two scary ideas;
1) He sets up camp, along with hundreds of Red Mantis Assassins, at the Starstone itself, defending any ex-gods who show up to reclaim their divinity, and end up in a shadow war with Norgorber's servants (who have to identify and kill ex-gods before they reach the safety of Achaekek-held territory, making all of Absalom into an ever-shifting maze of 'safe zones' and 'death traps' and 'total war zones' as they exchange territory and strike against each other, leaving the average Abalomi citizen terrified to leave their house.
I want this as a sandbox videogame like right now.
Escort missions would probably even be bearable considering the escortees would be Super Joan of Arc and Tim Curry.
Although protecting Mr. "HURT ME MORE!" and a possible drunken Leeroy Jenkins might be a bit tricky...
Regarding what happens to Death? I stand by my plot-point, that out of all the Gods... Pharasma (Fate/Death) is the one who remains a Deity and keeps the place running... Either that, or we find out that while Pharasma is the personified Deity of Death & Fate, that Death itself is a power above and beyond that personification, impersonal, unreachable, beyond mortal knowledge-- and it's still there, keeping the place running while Pharasma (the personified deity) is taking a mortal spell (voluntarily or involuntarily).
For that matter, anyone else read Neil Gaiman's "Death: the High Cost of Living" miniseries? Maybe this is all happening because Pharasma has to spend a little time as a mortal so that she can experience life as the mortals she must judge do... and for some reason, all the rest of the deities got dragged down into mortal form right along with her. Even if that's not the case, if Pharasma becomes a mortal too, "High Cost of Living" is not a bad take on what Pharasma's mortal spell is like.
At bolded sentence I started thinking about "the High Cost Of Living" and Pharasma's mortality being the source/side-effect of deities mortality.
Maybe someone want's to get rid of the very concept of death from the universe and this makes all the deities into living entities?
Another Sandman-related idea: maybe Asmodeus has enough of his job and quits leaving the hell open. However, as he is signer of the compact that created and maintained Order in the universe (according to at least one myth, or maybe was it 4th edition Asmodeus myth?) his absence causes the whole pantheon crash down when Divine Laws are no longer in effect. And here starts the great quest to find Asmodeus and either convince him to take back his mantle or assign lawful scion.
(Asmodeus becomes a big pub owner in Absalom? now I think about mortal Cayden coming there and trying to convince blased Asmodeus to return to being deity of Hard Unforgiving Order - while at the same time being pained by thought that Asmodeus is acting according to Cayden's religious recommendations).
|
|
are the base functions of the universe tied to their divine masters (unlike Faerun, save for the Weave)?
I say no. I can't find any reference anywhere that they are. Plus if they fall, it prevents the headache of additional complications like magic going nuts, ect.
>>> are the gods' worshipers or history a more important association (for example: would they manifest like their worshipers or what they were before)?
I say worshippers. For one this puts them all on the same playing field. Otherwise you got Sarenrae still an angel, Asmodeus still a devil, Lamashtu a demon....
>>> who decides (and how) what happens in the world?
Nobody save for those that live in it.
>>> would Asmodeus' contracts continue to function if he was undone?
I would assume that Asmodeus was smart enough to add a clause to all his contracts that state his contracts remain in effective in the case his divinity is lost. Have you SEEN a government contract? that's what I do IRL....
>>> what would happen if Pharasma was taken down from her throne? (although you guys questioning this made me reconsider: what if Pharasma was the only one that didn't come down... she might have more than a few suspicious enemies after her...)
I think Pharasma should fall as well. But maybe she cheated a little bit, being able to forsee what's about to happen and appointed one of her servitors acting in her place until she returns? This'll keep the line of dead flowing along.
|
|
Also...would clerics stop receiving spells since there are no deities to grant them....or could they still draw upon the power of faith and, like the Core Rulebook allows, not need a deity for awhile? IF this were to become a campaign, this is what I would do so as to still allow for cleric, paladin, oracle PCs.
As written, no, clerics definitively draw from gods, while all other divine spellcasters wouldn't.
EDIT: by "as written" I mean, "Golarion as a published campaign setting (minor discrepancies aside)".
That said, the gods aren't gone: they're just in mortal shells somewhere. In the case of FR's time of troubles, their divinities weren't even truly lost, they were just "motralized" deities.
Now, to respond point by point (I'm not arguing, so much as debating... point being, I'm not opposed to any answer, but bringing up the opposite side to consider):
are the base functions of the universe tied to their divine masters (unlike Faerun, save for the Weave)?
I say no. I can't find any reference anywhere that they are. Plus if they fall, it prevents the headache of additional complications like magic going nuts, ect.
Similarly, however, I can't find any reference anywhere that they aren't. Some can be implied/presumed not to be - booze existed before Cayden and paladins before Iomedae, for example - but by the same token, there's very clear problems when a deity is no longer present. Look at Aroden's death as a perfect example of that. What happened when his divinity was violated/he was no longer a god?
1) Storms wracked the world, and a permanent hurricane formed2) Prophecy ended
3) the Abyss and Hell each gained a distinct foothold
Whether or not mankind's fortunes have waxed or waned is something up for debate. After all, the elves have returned and are making a resurgence, and dwarves are certainly on the rise, while gnomes are becoming more prevalent and halflings successfully breaking free of their bonds of servitude (to humans). Plus, he was only a deity for a (comparatively) short while - he wasn't one of those that was around at the beginning. What happens when the most ancient of them goes?
>>> are the gods' worshipers or history a more important association (for example: would they manifest like their worshipers or what they were before)?I say worshippers. For one this puts them all on the same playing field. Otherwise you got Sarenrae still an angel, Asmodeus still a devil, Lamashtu a demon....
Sure, this puts them on an even playing field... but who cares about an even playing field? That paladin goddess maybe. Sarenrae certainly doesn't, and Asmodeus is known for his chicanery! Lamashtu being a demon makes a certain amount of sense, considering her worshipers...
>>> who decides (and how) what happens in the world?Nobody save for those that live in it.
And why is that? HOW is that? Presupposing the laws remain constant, certainly those within a world have some say, but if the laws are dependent on divinity (and they well may be) then those within the world get to decide approximately nada.
>>> would Asmodeus' contracts continue to function if he was undone?I would assume that Asmodeus was smart enough to add a clause to all his contracts that state his contracts remain in effective in the case his divinity is lost. Have you SEEN a government contract? that's what I do IRL....
I've seen government contracts (though not many), and certainly they can be comprehensive. However, Asmodeus has been known to act like the first two letters of his name plus an "s" more than once: not the least of which is when he created the key that helped Sarenrae seal away Rovagug, just so he could be the one to decide the end of the world. Seriously - he made it so if he was displeased, he could literally unleash THE END whenever he wanted. I'd say there might be some important rider clauses that people haven't been considering.
>>> what would happen if Pharasma was taken down from her throne? (although you guys questioning this made me reconsider: what if Pharasma was the only one that didn't come down... she might have more than a few suspicious enemies after her...)I think Pharasma should fall as well. But maybe she cheated a little bit, being able to forsee what's about to happen and appointed one of her servitors acting in her place until she returns? This'll keep the line of dead flowing along.
The line of dead-judged-by-servitor is something I mentioned above: I think it's a neat concept, and certainly something that makes sense, if she's fallen. The question is, could they do it? Pharasma's literally been around since approximately forever, which means she's tied into the fundamental fabric of the universe, even if she isn't, technically, "necessary".
Anyway, I like your ideas! I'm not actually against them, despite taking the other side for this, because I'm interested in getting more feedback and seeing responses on both sides. :)
Also, something that just occurred to me: this kind of chaos is right up Proteans' allies. It seems like something they'd do, if only to blot out the false "divinities" that so claim such a position.
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16, 2011 Top 32
|
I would imagine that the concepts of Good, Evil and Neutrality espoused by the people's belief would still power the clerical spells.
In the case of Cayden Cailean, I would imagine that being mortal again would be a wonderful challenge and that he wouldn't be in such a hurry to re-divine up. In Pharasma's case, she should fall, but her bureaucracy would still keep everything going.
Of course, Rovagug may still become mortal as well, which would be the perfect opportunity to kill him off once and for all, which I imagine most of the gods of Good and some of Evil would make their primary mission during this situation.
|
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
I've seen government contracts (though not many), and certainly they can be comprehensive. However, Asmodeus has been known to act like the first two letters of his name plus an "s" more than once: not the least of which is when he created the key that helped Sarenrae seal away Rovagug, just so he could be the one to decide the end of the world. Seriously - he made it so if he was displeased, he could literally unleash THE END whenever he wanted. I'd say there might be some important rider clauses that people haven't been considering.
And here we have a scary part. Asmodeus the not-a-god still has that key, and if stuff gets dicey, he'd cheerily release not-a-god, but-probably-still-tougher-than-his-Tarrasque-kid Rovagug in a cold second, if that gave him some sort of advantage (or use that option as a threat to keep other not-a-gods or archdevils from taking advantage of his weakened state!).
A fight between a weakened not-divine Rovagug and weakened not-divine other gods would be a 'once more, with feeling' sort of situation, as everyone knows that permanant death is on the table, in this fight...
And if Rovagug dies at the hands of Sarenrae, Torag, Iomedae, Erastil, Desna, Gorum, Abadar, etc., etc. that might actually be part of Asmodeus' greater plan, as he's already made an infernal contract with one of his underlings that will bind the soul and power of the dying 'god' of destruction into himself, which, he hopes, will bootstrap him right back to divinity. (And if some of the good 'gods' get ganked off during the fray? So much the better...) If it works, Rovagug will be dead, one or more of the good ex-gods will be dead as well, and Asmodeus will be the only one of the ex-gods to have recaptured his power, which will set the stage for him to remake the world in his own image...
The plan has its risks, obviously. Asmodeus is going to have to make an infernal compact with a powerful underling Duke of Hell type, who may attempt some shenanigans of his own. Asmodeus is also going to attempt to internalize the soul and power of Rovagug, which could result in some digestion issues, starting with occasional bouts of un-lawful destructive behavior and perhaps culminating with Asmodeus' chest bursting open to reveal that Rovagug didn't 'go down easy.' Cue soundtrack to Aliens, with Calistria and Cayden in the roles of Vasquez and Hicks.
|
|
As written, no, clerics definitively draw from gods, while all other divine spellcasters wouldn't.
EDIT: by "as written" I mean, "Golarion as a published campaign setting (minor discrepancies aside)".That said, the gods aren't gone: they're just in mortal shells somewhere. In the case of FR's time of troubles, their divinities weren't even truly lost, they were just "motralized" deities.
Maybe just a certain class of clerics retain their powers...those that weren't so zealously devoted to the god itself but more towards the ideals of what that god represented. So a cleric of Sarenrae who was actually more concerned with the healing of the sick than appeasing Sarenrae would probably get to keep her powers, but those clerics that just stayed in the temple all day, taking care of it, doing sermons about how great Sarenrae is, ect. probably won't? I don't have a copy of the APG in front of me, but did it say that Oracles actually get their powers from deities? I don't remember...
So, just a little bit of clarity what I meant.
People would have no inherent way of knowing, but a cleric's reliance upon divinity has been discussed for the last two years (give or take a month).
Short version: published Golarion, all clerics and all cleric archetypes require a single deity of their choice to be their patron, and that is the one from whence they gain spells. No other divine class requires this. HOWEVER, feel free to use whatever you like in your home campaign.
There, I just saved you all from reading 713+ posts, a number of which are from me, which, as we all know, can be terrifying. :)
Also, I have NO PROBLEM leaving this concept behind for the purpose of this discussion, but I wanted people to be aware of the way things functioned in published Golarion.
Anyway, I bring that up to say: I can totally see the reverence and honor of a cleric continuing to function, if they're devoted enough, even to the deity in question. That would be an interesting concept as well... the clerics who are the most devoted to and most in line with their gods might still be able to commune with the "divinity that was" (like a cosmic echo or something) and still hold onto/receive their spells.
However, because NO ONE ELSE IN THEIR CHURCH can cast spells, clearly, obviously (to the desperate, now-disenfranchised worshipers), these still-casting clerics are heretics. Certainly this is the reason the god(s) chose to cut off their divine followers... to reveal those who weren't following them! And perhaps, if they could simply purge the heretics, they'll restore their deity to his/her/its proper status...
As far as Oracles' and their sources... you don't remember because it's clearly obfuscated! Basically, the short version is "no body knows"/"it varies from oracle to oracle". The slightly longer version is that an oracle is chosen by "divine forces" of an undetermined type (probably various ranging from deity, to demon, to angel, to ancestor spirits, to other) which "agree with their philosophy" (or vice versa) and imbued with divine power.
Similarly, inquisitors are granted autonomy to not need a single patron, though they require a belief structure of some kind, I believe, as written.
Paladins just have to be lawful good and follow the code.
Druids revere nature (or some aspect or god of nature) and must maintain some amount of moral or ethical "balance" (hence the neutral aspect).
Rangers must... um... hey look, a distraction!
So, yeah, that's pretty much how things break down for divine classes.
I'd totally agree that Cayden may well just take this as the most epic of awesomes and do some serious partying. It's too bad that'll make him a perfect target for Norgberger (and/or a now non-divine Aechekek!)
And Pharasma's aeons might be able to keep things moving... or they might flip out (having been disconnected from the Monad) and might suddenly fall into chaos, unraveling the world. It may very well be that the universe continues to function purely because the aeons maintain it, and they maintain it only because of their connection to the Monad via Pharasma. That would explain why things would start coming unraveled without any deities...
And Set: oooooh, your take on Asmodeus is ridiculously perfect in its cold evil and chilling sleights of hand (mixed with apparent overt plans). Truly, big A runs Xanatos gambits by the bucketloads. 'Course, it would be interesting to guess if Assy made a contingency for "if Rovagug bursts out of me after I eat him..." (and I love the image you made, there - hilarious!).
EDIT: also, question to throw out there - can Asmo actually use the shadow key now that he's a not-god? He certainly wouldn't let anyone know that he couldn't, but if he lost his divinity, could he still wield the key that required his... unique touch, when he was a god?
|
|
yeah, i was just seeing this through a future campaign adventure lens and trying to keep cleric & oracle PC's viable. But if this is just a thinking exercise then I totally agree that clerics lose all access to their spells.
Speaking of Rovagug....how would he end up on the mortal end of business? Still chained up in the Pit but mortal? I'd think that the chains wouldn't work anymore since they were created for a god-like Rovagug, not mortal Rovagug. And how would he appear as a mortal? Some huge barbarian-like human or orc or would he be a giant bug, but killable? Could he be an actual CR 20 Animal-type creature?
I see alot revolving around the rough beast's prison.
I think that certain gods would take it better than others. I see Iori and Cayen taking mortality better than Iomedae or Norgober.
In fact Iori is unique in that not only did he go from mortal to god without assistance, but he would know exactly how to do it again.
|
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16, 2011 Top 32
|
I see alot revolving around the rough beast's prison.
I think that certain gods would take it better than others. I see Iori and Cayen taking mortality better than Iomedae or Norgober.
In fact Iori is unique in that not only did he go from mortal to god without assistance, but he would know exactly how to do it again.
Irori did, but would he do it again? And when is the question. I see Irori realizing that the fulcrum of affairs in on the mortal plane and therefore forgoing his immediate return to divinity to act as a mortal in the struggle to come.
One idea that occurs to me is that the gods become mortal except for the gods who themselves were once mortal.
I'm having trouble imagining Pharasma and Asmodeus being affected by this.
They're not just Golarion's gods, they're phenomena. Pharasma is THE Judge of the Dead for the entire Inner and Outer Sphere, and Asmodeus is older than the Material Plane and has assigned every single inhabited world in that plane its own malebranche devil general to coordinate Hell's efforts to conquer that particular world. Some quirk of divine mischance on one little planet on the rim of an average spiral galaxy isn't going to make either of them blink; Pharasma will just be conducting business as usual, and by the time Hell's bureaucracy manages to notify Asmodeus that something interesting is happening on this particular speck of dust, the crisis may have been brought to some kind of end...
|
|
Asmodeus is older than the Material Plane and has assigned every single inhabited world in that plane its own malebranche devil general to coordinate Hell's efforts to conquer that particular world.
And yet, the big A is a total nobody on the majority of Golarion, not even being known by reputation in the Dragon Empires or Casmaron or Arcadia, just *fairly recently* becoming kind of hot stuff in one middling sized country in the Inner Sea region.
See, here's the thing with Asmodeus.
Asmodeus lies.
|
|
Pharasma--
As far as I'm concerned, the only way Pharasma comes down and becomes mortal herself, is if she's just the personification of Death/Fate, not Death/Fate itself.
And that, might be one of the big reveals-- that there is some big, powerful, terrifying (though not evil in and of itself), probably impersonal force-- of which Pharasma is a part, but of which she is only the face/personality, the part that you can see, that might talk to you, that you can kind of understand and interact with... but that's still just a small slice/shadow of the whole of what Death/Fate is.
That, and as noted earlier-- if Pharasma does come down, it's gonna be one of those Neil Gaiman episodes. IF Pharasma comes down...
If Pharasma herself really is Death/Fate, not just the 'face' of it for mortal eyes-- I don't think she becomes mortal: I don't think there's another power in the (game) universe that can actually undo Death/Fate itself like that. But she's the only one I see getting a 'get out of mortality free card' like that. Which still brings back the point that a lot of other deities, when they realize Pharasma isn't down there with them, are going to be very suspicious of her role in all this, and will be angry with her (perhaps), and even more scared of her than maybe they already were (since she's still Death & Fate, while they're mortal... tells ya something about the real power among the Deities if it goes down that way).
Pharasma is more likely the personification because even she says that one day she will take her place in line.
|
I'm not so sure that the Prime Material plane is anywhere near as "young" as it's sometimes portrayed. Physically, it's at the very center of the multiverse...this alone would seem to indicate that it's the oldest of alal the planes...the seed from which all the other sprang. Plus, it has the Outer Gods. Are we really supposed to believe that Azathoth is a relative newcomer compared to a cheesy human-looking devil like Asmodeus? Nuh-uh, not buying it. All the Outer Plane residents are way too convinced of their own superiority, which leads them to continually lie, both to others and to themselves...for in fact THEY are the Johnny-come-lately oof the multiverse.
|
|
All the Sandman references made me think of Hell and keys.
Asmodeus holds the key to Rovagug's prison. There could be issues.
If Rovagug isn't part of this depowering party, is that key tied in enough with Asmodeus' identity that it would stay with him as a mortal? Or would it remain in Hell?
If the former, Asmodeus becomes the highest priority target for worshippers of the Rough Beast in history if they catch wind of what's going on. For Asmodeus that thing becomes his biggest bargaining chip and liability. It certainly makes his appeals to Team Good for protection("For the good of all of us, of course") carry more weight. Or, if the key is something that can be removed from him, he might be forced to keep quiet and play his cards close to his chest, because almost everyone is going to have people wanting to take that key because they're sure they can keep it safer and be more trusted with it than mortal=Asmodeus or even god-Asmodeus.
If the latter, can he really trust his subordinates to keep that thing safe? Or to not misuse it themselves? He'd probably better hurry home and get his house back in order...
A point that has been missed so far I believe is gear.
If the gods arrive with truly godly gear, they will get robbed and murdered within hours.
If they arrive without gear, well it will be tough to get that money together.
Also there will be a long line of clerics who want to kick their god in the nuts because they are basicly commoners now. And wizards should still have their spells, right?
I believe nomatter what, the former gods will die quickly or be constantly on the run.
|
|
A point that has been missed so far I believe is gear.
If the gods arrive with truly godly gear, they will get robbed and murdered within hours.If they arrive without gear, well it will be tough to get that money together.
Also there will be a long line of clerics who want to kick their god in the nuts because they are basicly commoners now. And wizards should still have their spells, right?
I believe nomatter what, the former gods will die quickly or be constantly on the run.
I think they would be considered amongst the more powerful mortals on Golarion. Their deityhood gets stripped, but a tinsy-tiny sliver of power remained.....basically making them 20th level or higher. I think that the FR version of the time of troubles did have a few things right. Even though clerics didn't have their spells anymore, didn't the now mortal gods get the royal treatment by their worshippers? - at least the good ones and a few of the bad ones.
You know I didn't even think about the Cthulu element. If there's any bad guys out there that could pull this off, it would be those of the Dark Tapestry....Cthulu, Azathoth, ect.
Cause it does seem like all of the reasons for this happening is due to a good deity trying to do good but screwing up somehow. We're obviously not giving the bad gods enough credit here.
We are forgetting the size of the godly population here. What about the elder gods becoming mortal?
We are forgetting the size of the godly population here. What about the elder gods becoming mortal?
I doubt that it would be even a remotely possible. I think that they are as alien to gods as they are alien to mortals and naming them deities is just a convention and not them being metaphysically anyhow similar to understandable deities.
|
|
We are forgetting the size of the godly population here. What about the elder gods becoming mortal?I doubt that it would be even a remotely possible. I think that they are as alien to gods as they are alien to mortals and naming them deities is just a convention and not them being metaphysically anyhow similar to understandable deities.
The Material Plane is not only the oldest of all the panes, it's also the most wrong. Places like Golarion's system are small pockets of sanity awash in a sea of blasphemous madness.
|
I think in irori's case, it would play out similar to the scene in The Watchmen, where the blue fella gets atomized by Ozzy, and then puts himself back together.
"this was the first trick I learned, before I was a god."
Poof. He's a god again as soon as he takes the time to regain that meditative mental position.
The Material Plane is not only the oldest of all the panes, it's also the most wrong. Places like Golarion's system are small pockets of denial about the true nature of the existence awash in a real universe.
*cough* Outer planes are just shadows cast by those erroneous pockets.
|
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
|
interesting.
I think loss of divinity = loss of clerical power. Which, amusingly might also coincide with an uptick in undead, as the boneyard closes shop.
Also I see three factions that aren't mentioned above.
1) Daemons. Everyone is talking about the long knives being out for Asmodaeus. Imagine the Daemons having a chance at consuming a (formerly/shadowed) divinity?
2) Rhadoun(sp) I can see several "I told you so" going on. Either go and hunt down the gods, or show how they can prosper because they didn't rely on divine magic.
3) Razmeir. He's looking for immortality. What better subject to study than the fallen gods that gained divinity.
NICE! Thanks, Matt! I knew we were forgetting something...