Well, I believe we are almost done with the Haunting of Harrowstone (totally metagaming, we've got one boss ghost left we think).
I don't know if it changed by our GM, but holy carp!!! I have never come so close to saying we should intentionally throw the match (at least with good characters). I've never seen a published adventure since clear back to 1st Ed that the victims you are trying to save were such a collection of misogynistic, prejudiced, hateful, neo-natzis wannabes (I may be exaggerating slightly because I'm irritated, but not much).
Even our dwarf paladin can't hardly stand the folk of this town and he is the only one they like. The LG paladin and the NG cleric were actually discussing IC if it would be better to let the spooks wipeout the town rather than keeping trying to work with these flea bites.
The only reason we didn't is because we were afraid the spooks and local Wispering Way would gain to much power for us to eliminate if allowed to take over the good ghost and town.
So far we have met exactly 5 people in this town that seem worth the air they breath. And we were unable to keep 3 of them alive.
Anyway, don't SPOIL the rest of the AP for me, but I'm hoping it gets better.
/end rant
deep calming breath...
ok I feel a little better.
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Without actually spoiling anything remember this is Ustalav. It's generally a NE country.
The problem you have is that it's hardwired into the polpulation of the country that trusting anyone you don't know is risky because that person could be something horrible in disguise. Remember this is a dark campaign and populations have every reason not to trust outsiders so you are likely to get repeated choruses of "We don't like your kind round ere..!"
There's more I could say but that might spoiler things.
Without actually spoiling anything remember this is Ustalav. It's generally a NE country...
That I did not know. I will look through the players guide again. If it's in there, I missed it.
... The problem you have is that it's hardwired into the polpulation of the country that trusting anyone you don't know is risky because that person could be something horrible in disguise. Remember this is a dark campaign and populations have every reason not to trust outsiders so you are likely to get repeated choruses of "We don't like your kind round ere..!" ...
Some of that is not too surprising. But I'm currently expecting to get cheated on the job pay. And it won't surprise me if we get run out of town by a mob after we do save them.
... There's more I could say but that might spoiler things.
Thanks
It sounds like your GM is just playing everyone like they're, uh, a complete jackass.
I don't know why this keeps happening in Carrion Crown. I had people not like the PCs and be xenophobic, but the PCs were fine, and they warmed up to them. I don't know why anyone would try to antagonize their PCs by making the people they're trying to help insult and belittle and be annoying to the PCs.
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I think the problem is the Trust mechanic that's listed in the adventure. If things go the way they would be expected to go in the adventure (using average rolls, anticipating playere's reactions, etc.), the group quickly falls behind the curve in trust points, the town becomes an unpleasant group of ingrates, and the party starts to wonder why they are making any effort to save them.
My recommendation to your GM is ditch the trust rules entirely, and have the town react to the group organically, logically, using common sense. In my HoH campaign, the group senses that the overall mood of the town is growing darker, but they know that it's not because of any failure on the group's part; something wicked is slowly infecting the town. It has allowed me to get the players invested in saving Ravengro, rather than burning it down themselves.
...My recommendation to your GM is ditch the trust rules entirely, and have the town react to the group organically, logically, using common sense...
... The existing Diplomacy rules work just fine, the trust mechanic should just be ignored.
I think the GM was also a little surprised at how ticked off we are getting with the townies.
Well, I think we are about done with this mission. So I think we'll just let it drop.
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Yeah, it sounds as though your GM played up the hostility a little too much. I'm sure he underestimated the degree to which it would annoy his players.
Hey, maybe he'll fix it by having something fittingly bad happen to the townspeople if they remain too ungrateful, even after the PCs win...perhaps Vessorianna is not quite as benign as she seems?
When I GM'd it, I didn't ditch the trust mechanic, but I definitely handed out WAY more positive trust points than the module specified. It was good; it made the players feel like they were doing something good every day, however small.
Its easy to save people you like. True heroes save their enemies and antagonists ;).
That sounds more like a saint than a hero.
And I ain't no saint!
... One, it's Ustalav, so playing them as paranoid and *mildly* xenophobic would be perfectly correct. ...Second, the module does contain a mechanism -- the trust point system -- that is likely to make them even worse....That said, if you're almost done, then finish the job and shake the dust of Harrowstone off your boots...
I think the GM was maybe a bit unsure how much to play up the paranoid and xenophobic to make sure we noticed it. So he went a little over board and went too extreme.
We actually had some very diplomatic characters and made some good choices. At points we were nearly maxed on the trust points. But he was still playing them in really annoying. That's part of why I think he accindentially went too far.
We finished it up last night. We are going to assist the 2 or 3 decent people in setting up in another town so they won't have to live through the known Harrowstone.
1. Talk to your GM, let him know that the way Rovengo was portrayed made the whole town much less sympathetic to help, this is important for the upcomming Arc, and a couple of the later adventures.
2. Never "drop" an issue w/ your GM in the sense that if something is bothering you, let him know. It's important to give feed back so they can modify the adventure to fit the party.
In response to Ustalav being NE, The town of Rovengo is NG in the Adventure splat book. They're a gossipy rumor-mongering town, but not anywhere near xenophobic as people might portray them. At least, I didn't portray them that way.
Its easy to save people you like. True heroes save their enemies and antagonists ;).That sounds more like a saint than a hero.
And I ain't no saint!
You aren't a saint. Your paladin characters probably are, though. To the point they can heal people laying hands on them. :)
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First off this is a problem with both players and GMs. Players for the most part know they are better than any commoner, aristocrat, or expert in sheer levels of personal power. I find players expect NPCs to worship the ground they walk on or fear them completely. Players aren't afraid of assaulting the city watch or breaking laws as few NPCs have the juice in a typical setting to enforce any punishment on them.
Take a look at any western. Notice how the townsfolk react around dangerous gunmen. This is exactly how PCs expect NPCs to treat them because in all honesty Adventurers are dangerous folk!
So Kydeem, here's the long and short of it... are you a hero or are you a mercenary?
Carrion Crown really does play better with classic hero types. Virtuous Paladins, Pious Clerics, Protective Rangers, Noble Cavaliers, etc, etc...
A hero respects or tolerates the townsfolks fears and prejudices even if they disagree with them and are patient enough to try diplomacy first.
A mercenary lacks patience with menial commoners and expects people to do what they tell them and uses intimidation first.
--Vrocky Horror
Note that there was a known editorial error in the trust mechanic that your GM was probably not aware of.
So if your GM is using the RAW trust mechanic, that would explain a lot. Thankfully, I read the forums before I ran HoH and corrected for it, otherwise things would likely have ended up a lot the same for my group.
..So Kydeem, here's the long and short of it... are you a hero or are you a mercenary?
Carrion Crown really does play better with classic hero types. Virtuous Paladins, Pious Clerics, Protective Rangers, Noble Cavaliers, etc, etc...
A hero respects or tolerates the townsfolks fears and prejudices even if they disagree with them and are patient enough to try diplomacy first.
A mercenary lacks patience with menial commoners and expects people to do what they tell them and uses intimidation first...
Some of our parties have been very mercenary by that definition, but not this one. We only used intimidation twice. And that wasn't until after diplomacy had clearly failed to stop the lynch mobs going after the couple of good folks in town.
Note that there was a known editorial error in the trust mechanic that your GM was probably not aware of.
So if your GM is using the RAW trust mechanic, that would explain a lot. Thankfully, I read the forums before I ran HoH and corrected for it, otherwise things would likely have ended up a lot the same for my group.
My GM is almost never online, so I can almost guarantee he did not know about that.
If you read some of the earlier posts, he probably also exaggerated the prejudice and xenophobia too much. He did back off on that the last couple of sessions.
If you read some of the earlier posts, he probably also exaggerated the prejudice and xenophobia too much. He did back off on that the last couple of sessions.
I don't think so.
If I recall properly, as RAW, within about a week the town would seriously dislike the PCs, and within about two weeks they'd be ready to string 'em up.
So I think the poor guy may have been trying to run it as written, not taking into account that as written it's not really very fun :)
Harrowstone is a fantastic adventure, among my all time favorites, yet it does require some modification to run optimally. Either the trust system needs to be scrapped entirely, additional side adventures must be incorporated allowing the pc's to accrue additional trust points, or you need to award bonus trust throughout the adventure as written.
Our group has played together for many years, and they like a sandbox style, so I fleshed out Ravengro with several side adventures which allowed for additonal trust point allocation. If your group is fine with taking the "slow" exp path, as mine is, then you can really add a lot in without worry of blowing the curve of the adventure path. This works for me as I like to use the AP's as a landscape on which to build a campaign.
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I don't think so.If I recall properly, as RAW, within about a week the town would seriously dislike the PCs, and within about two weeks they'd be ready to string 'em up.
So I think the poor guy may have been trying to run it as written, not taking into account that as written it's not really very fun :)
He said we were maxxed on trust points. I think it was 31 or something. And there were still the lynch mobs to deal with and the town trying to run out the only 2 good and capable NPC that could have helped them.
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2. Never "drop" an issue w/ your GM in the sense that if something is bothering you, let him know. It's important to give feed back so they can modify the adventure to fit the party.
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I understand what you are saying here. And I kinda agree.
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Wisdom.
I just wanted to throw my two cents in on top of what Jeranimus said - which I totally agree with (and is factually correct).
The people of Ravengro are meant to be the victims in this and its my recollection that the article covering the town tries to make them sympathetic - though superstitious and wary of exotic peoples. I can see how an insular, provincial community can easily take the step into unwelcoming, but the people are meant to be largely good and in need. Even if the GM has taken a less than welcoming approach presenting them, try warming up to them a bit - chop some wood for them, give a kid a toy, help an old lady across the street - and they should come across as gracious.
Also, as far as the country being NE goes, consider that a quick, two-letter snapshot of the way the government of the nation works, not the alignment of the majority of the populace. Ustalav is a country with a backward, bloated government filled with grasping nobles, but the people you meet on the street are little different then those you'd meet anywhere else - though, perhaps a bit more suspicious. They've seen a lot, after all.
Best of luck and hope all this hasn't cut into your enjoyment of the campaign too much!
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I didn't use the trust point system but I stuck to the general concept. The townsfolk were generally unfriendly to all outsiders. Some were jerky and others they made friends with early. The first few sessions they didn't care much for the town or its people, but thanks to a good tie to the church and desire to solve the mystery, the townsfolk warmed up to them and the players warmed up to them too. There were still a few folks they didn't care for. In the end, the Paladin was named the "Hero of Ravengro" and they made a statue in his honor near the well. It was pretty funny. They were still very happy to leave the town in the end after all that had happened.
Wisdom.Best of luck and hope all this hasn't cut into your enjoyment of the campaign too much!
From our own experience, the mechanic did not stymie enjoyment so much as it served as a creative impetus for additional story and plot development. Rather than scrapping the system or tweaking point awards, I simply added in additional storylines with trust point rewards. A few of these side plots developed and recurred throughout the campaign which I used to expand the story and smooth some of the narrative transitions.
Carrion Crown was our first AP, and in fact our first campaign since the twilight of 2E. Everyone enjoyed it so much that I'm now taking time to develop and expand upon the excellent material from Rule of Fear pursuant to Ustalav replacing Ravenloft as our persistent campaign home of choice.
Presently, I am working on developing the rival noble houses and political economy and social intrigue aspect of the land. If there are any related ideas you had that did not make it into Rule of Fear due to space or editing concerns you would like to share it would be very much appreciated.
Rather than scrapping the system or tweaking point awards, I simply added in additional storylines with trust point rewards. A few of these side plots developed and recurred throughout the campaign which I used to expand the story and smooth some of the narrative transitions.
My kind of GM right here! Long time readers will have heard this a thousand times before, but running pre-made adventures is really so much a group effort between the original author, the developer, and the GM, and they don't work unless each is dedicated to presenting the players with an awesome experience. Unflappable, creative GMs are the only ones worthy of the title in my opinion. Good show!
Carrion Crown was our first AP, and in fact our first campaign since the twilight of 2E. Everyone enjoyed it so much that I'm now taking time to develop and expand upon the excellent material from Rule of Fear pursuant to Ustalav replacing Ravenloft as our persistent campaign home of choice.
As a long, long time Ravenloft fan, you have no idea how delighted and flattered that last sentence makes me. So, so, so glad you guys are digging the AP and the nation. :)
Presently, I am working on developing the rival noble houses and political economy and social intrigue aspect of the land. If there are any related ideas you had that did not make it into Rule of Fear due to space or editing concerns you would like to share it would be very much appreciated.
Oh, dude, you've got to come to Paizocon or Gen Con and hit me up for this, I could go on for hours. I have plenty of opportunities to leak this and that here and there, but heck, I could do a whole book on just the nobility of Ustalav.
If you have anything specific, though, start up a new thread and I'll answer all I can - probably at greater length than I should since I can't help myself. ;P
(As an aside, you can really tell Carrion Crown players and GMs are the coolest just by looking at the avatars in the related threads.) ;)
Oh, dude, you've got to come to Paizocon or Gen Con and hit me up for this, I could go on for hours. I have plenty of opportunities to leak this and that here and there, but heck, I could do a whole book on just the nobility of Ustalav.If you have anything specific, though, start up a new thread and I'll answer all I can - probably at greater length than I should since I can't help myself. ;P
Without going into a surfeit of detail in this thread, I can tell you that I'm using the Long War (1591-1604 the Habsburg Monarchy (Austria, Royal Hungary, Croatia, and Bohemia), Transylvania, Wallachia and Moldavia opposing the Ottoman Empire) and the War of the Roses as historical inspiration for the internecine strife and political intrigue of the Ustalavian nobility. Concurrent with this I envision an economy in the throes of a feudal to mercantilist evolutuion with all of the exigent implications and crises of such. (again drawing from history here such as land confiscation, dispossession, forced emigration et al)
... I can tell you that I'm using the Long War (1591-1604 the Habsburg Monarchy (Austria, Royal Hungary, Croatia, and Bohemia), Transylvania, Wallachia and Moldavia opposing the Ottoman Empire) and the War of the Roses as historical inspiration for the internecine strife and political intrigue of the Ustalavian nobility. Concurrent with this I envision an economy in the throes of a feudal to mercantilist evolutuion with all of the exigent implications and crises of such. (again drawing from history here such as land confiscation, dispossession, forced emigration et al)
Some people have way too much time on their hands ;)
I wish I had that kinda of time to devote to this hobby.
... I can tell you that I'm using the Long War (1591-1604 the Habsburg Monarchy (Austria, Royal Hungary, Croatia, and Bohemia), Transylvania, Wallachia and Moldavia opposing the Ottoman Empire) and the War of the Roses as historical inspiration for the internecine strife and political intrigue of the Ustalavian nobility. Concurrent with this I envision an economy in the throes of a feudal to mercantilist evolutuion with all of the exigent implications and crises of such. (again drawing from history here such as land confiscation, dispossession, forced emigration et al)Some people have way too much time on their hands ;)
I wish I had that kinda of time to devote to this hobby.
Actually between the wife and the career not nearly as much time as I wish I had. Hence it is developing in 1-2 hour increments here and there, with some thought on the matter in between, mostly on the way to and from work while listening to a good muse like Coltrane or Parker. I'm under no delusion that all of this will be ready by our next campaign, but it will be a persistent work in progress added to Ustalav as finalized.
I didn't use the Trust point system, but instead tried to present the townsfolk as suspicious because they all had secrets of their own. I figured the PCs would enjoy unearthing secrets while researching the growing menace from outside the town.
My plan backfired; the more they learned about the NPCs, the more convinced they were that they all deserved to die. An unfortunate rock-throwing incident made it almost impossible for the party to recover any trust, so I decided to take drastic measures, and let the PCs wander up to Lepistadt a little bit early (they made one foray into Harrowstone and ran away screaming, convinced they weren't powerful enough yet).
When they returned to Ravengro, they found the town overrun with zombies. Most of the NPCs they hated the most had either been turned or gone insane, while the few sympathetic NPCs were holed up in the temple. This drastic change allowed the PCs to slaughter the Ravengrans without guilt, and to be big damn heroes for the NPCs they liked.
This makes it seem as if the PCs failed to protect the town, but they reacted as if the zombie attack was all part of the adventure path, and cleaned up as best they could.
When they returned to Ravengro, they found the town overrun with zombies.
This makes it seem as if the PCs failed to protect the town, but they reacted as if the zombie attack was all part of the adventure path, and cleaned up as best they could.
I love this! And would hold this up as an awesome option for any GM with a group less than interested in helping out this insular community. It's not a punishment, but it shows that the PCs' deeds have ramifications and, sometimes, grisly ones. Good show!
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I didn't use the Trust point system, but instead tried to present the townsfolk as suspicious because they all had secrets of their own. I figured the PCs would enjoy unearthing secrets while researching the growing menace from outside the town.
My plan backfired; the more they learned about the NPCs, the more convinced they were that they all deserved to die. An unfortunate rock-throwing incident made it almost impossible for the party to recover any trust, so I decided to take drastic measures, and let the PCs wander up to Lepistadt a little bit early (they made one foray into Harrowstone and ran away screaming, convinced they weren't powerful enough yet).
When they returned to Ravengro, they found the town overrun with zombies. Most of the NPCs they hated the most had either been turned or gone insane, while the few sympathetic NPCs were holed up in the temple. This drastic change allowed the PCs to slaughter the Ravengrans without guilt, and to be big damn heroes for the NPCs they liked.
This makes it seem as if the PCs failed to protect the town, but they reacted as if the zombie attack was all part of the adventure path, and cleaned up as best they could.
That is a pretty awesome solution!
Enjoying the AP though only just getting around to finishing HoH after a long break. Hopefully, we'll be continuing on. As for Ravengro, I too tossed the trust points out the window. I like the idea but just looking at them in the book and from discussion on the msg board it seemed that it was very difficult for groups to gain enough trust to be helpful and by not reaching that goal it would more likely breed resentment.
I did change the town background a bit indicating that it was essentially run by a triumvurate of an elder councilman, a sanctimonious hypocrite, and the Sheriff. I set things up so that if the party earned the approval or trust of two of the three that they would be at least treated with respect if not admiration. They helped the Sheriff unravel the
I found that by using these three NPCs as the barometer for trust it simplified the situation
I've never seen a published adventure since clear back to 1st Ed that the victims you are trying to save were such a collection of misogynistic, prejudiced, hateful, neo-natzis wannabes
Your DM has to be careful in RPing the locals. I've got NPCs that clearly hate certain players (my Father Grimburrow absolutely despises our PC Dr. Volokhov who performs autopsies on the dead) while he absolutely loves the PC Priest of Pharasma. Other townsfolk are all smiles and hugs to to the PCs one day. Then a week or so later the NPC is looking at the PCs as if they kicked her dog.
There are reasons why the NPCs hate the PCs so much. My PCs have gotten off lucky in that they've ensured the population is fairly neutral towards them. They've had brief moments where they were Liked. They've also had brief moments where they were disliked. Overall they've stayed within Neutral.
Most of my PCs took my warnings to heart and have made a purely human party :D Things would have been worse had they played some of the more exotic races like "elves" ;)
I think the problem is the Trust mechanic that's listed in the adventure. If things go the way they would be expected to go in the adventure (using average rolls, anticipating playere's reactions, etc.), the group quickly falls behind the curve in trust points, the town becomes an unpleasant group of ingrates, and the party starts to wonder why they are making any effort to save them.
I added in extra ways for the PCs to gain trust points. I also added in extra ways for the PCs to lose trust points. My PCs have made an effort to act well towards the PCs and have for the most part benefited from this.
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My players won over the populace of Ravengro quite handily, and become quite attached to many of the Characters, including Quess, Pevrin, Jominda, and the Sheriff. I played them all as essentially decent but mistrusting folk, who were won over by the incredible diplomacy of the characters plus all the heroics they pulled off.
Without saying too much, there is actually very little RP info on the townsfolk in the module, so it sounds like your DM just enjoyed playing up the suspicious, mean locals.
...Without saying too much, there is actually very little RP info on the townsfolk in the module, so it sounds like your DM just enjoyed playing up the suspicious, mean locals.
Yeah, that matches with whatt most of the other posters thought. It says for them to be unfriendly and xenophobic and he went too far that direction.
Yeah, that matches with whatt most of the other posters thought. It says for them to be unfriendly and xenophobic and he went too far that direction....Without saying too much, there is actually very little RP info on the townsfolk in the module, so it sounds like your DM just enjoyed playing up the suspicious, mean locals.
I'll add my own voice to that.
I started with suspicion and distrust but allowed the PCs to overcome it. That seems part and parcel with heroics, good deeds, and good intentions.
In a way, its like any obstacle PCs struggle to overcome. There's not a CR attached to "the villagers don't trust us" but like anything else, there's a way to deal it. And rewards for doing so.
Harrowstone went great for me, and the gang is bugging me to start Chapter Two.
Well, I believe we are almost done with the Haunting of Harrowstone (totally metagaming, we've got one boss ghost left we think).
I don't know if it changed by our GM, but holy carp!!! I have never come so close to saying we should intentionally throw the match (at least with good characters). I've never seen a published adventure since clear back to 1st Ed that the victims you are trying to save were such a collection of misogynistic, prejudiced, hateful, neo-natzis wannabes (I may be exaggerating slightly because I'm irritated, but not much).
Even our dwarf paladin can't hardly stand the folk of this town and he is the only one they like. The LG paladin and the NG cleric were actually discussing IC if it would be better to let the spooks wipeout the town rather than keeping trying to work with these flea bites.
Agree with Nathonicus. I don't recall a whole lot of misogyny written in the module, except for one certain person.
The nazi thing seems a bit harsh, too--I think the text supports more of a jumpy, anxious, insular townsfolk kind of vibe. As opposed to a hate-them-because-they're-different vibe.
Even allowing for the misunderstanding with the trust points, I suspect your GM may have gone a slightly different direction with his game.