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Personally I am not for PVP online thanks to Penny Arcade's Internet [Jerk] Theory (I got the second word wrong on purpose to make it cleaner). It describes how anonymity makes a normal person a complete jerk.
Normal Person + Anonymity + Audience = Complete Jerk (edited again for content issues).
I imagine a lot of these people are "jerks" already and the anonymity element simply makes them more inclined to revel in their "jerkdom". I understand this does not make the game anymore enjoyable though.
However, PvE or PvP, these guys are going to be jerks no matter what. At least with PvP you get a chance to stomp them back.
May be different types of servers can be accessed emphasising only the necessary elements of PvP, while letting us PvPers enjoy "world PvP" on another.
Jerks and PvP do not bother me. Its a game and the competition is fun. I just ignore the BS and go on my merry way. Forcing everyone into a "Care Bear" environment kills it for some players.
Goonfleet's primary goal was, for the time that I was following their actions, the elimination of BoB and its associated vassal corps. It would surprise me to learn that their stated goal was ruining the game for everyone else.Can I say Goonswarm?
When you have one of the largest Alliances that claim that its goal is to run the game for all other players
What is everyone's problem with us goons? We don't want to ruin games we just want to have fun like you guys. Its EvE's fault for exiling us and calling us trash.
Goblin Squad Member
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2) WoW really isn't an MMO in the strictest sense. WoW allows for a completely solo game experience if you want it. It's more like a single player game with raids at the end.
I don't think you can claim that. If your definition of MMO is you have to be directly involved with other people either on your side or as your opponents, there are precious few MMOs out there (and the MMORPG tag can basically be applied to zero games).
The accepted definition for MMO is simply any online game world shared by a large number of players.
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Goblin Squad Member
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What is everyone's problem with us goons? We don't want to ruin games we just want to have fun like you guys. Its EvE's fault for exiling us and calling us trash.Goonfleet's primary goal was, for the time that I was following their actions, the elimination of BoB and its associated vassal corps. It would surprise me to learn that their stated goal was ruining the game for everyone else.Can I say Goonswarm?
When you have one of the largest Alliances that claim that its goal is to run the game for all other players
I never had a problem with Goonfleet. In fact, catching weekly war effort updates was some solid entertainment. I think a lot of people got the wrong impression as far as what they were all about.
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Goblin Squad Member
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See, this is where part of my concern over audience lies: the Pathfinder base strikes me, frankly, as having a level of tolerance for open-world PvP that is less than the level of tolerance of your typical MMORPG audience.
Yes, open-world PvP is functionally little different than encountering a random high level monster (or pack of monsters). Yes, the same people who claim to hate level-scaling will also claim to hate open-world PvP. But it puts in place a system whereby your average player will lose roughly half the time (even if that loss just means a quick respawn and no significant loss of progress), and I think a lot of the people here are imagining that they will be less - or significantly less - awesome than your average player.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Well thats pretty much killed of any intest me or any of my friends would have had in this game.
Are you sure you're speaking for all of your friends, here? It would be pretty remarkable if none of your friends had any interest in non-consensual PvP.
I mean, everyone's got their kinks.
Scott i remember it being called over corp chat that a rifter had single handedly killed a megathron in a battle. I fell out of my seat with laughter.
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Goblin Squad Member
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If the PVP aspect is anything like EVE I am in.
For those of you who don't want to PVP, that's ok too.
Take a look at the Eve Political Map.
See the big dark region in the center? That's the zone where you are safe. That's the established, computer controlled kingdom. If you try to start something there, the guards will destroy you. I am certain there will be plenty of developer designed content within safe zone to keep the PvE only players happy. There has to be enough there to make James Jacobs happy. I think you will be fine.
Not look at the colored sections around the map. That's the wilderness. The wilderness will quickly be conquered as PCs build nations. Nations and alliances will shift. I've played EVE in the goon swarm. I can tell you, living in Goon controlled territory as a Goon or a Goon ally? 99.999% safe. Because they organize patrols to hunt for intruders.
So when I wanted to PVE, I hung out doing my own thing in Goon territory. As safe as anyone in the computer controlled region could be.
When I wanted to PVP I could join one of the hunting patrols or raiding parties or if I was really lucky I happened to be free during the siege of a major system.
I could do either freely as I desired. It was awesome.
An open PVP system doesn't mean lawless anarchy. An open PVP system where players can build castles and towns and stores and whatever means the players will make the laws. As long as there is enough territory to go around that any one faction can't conquer it all, there will be places to visit.
And if I learned anything from the goons, its that even the newest player can make a difference. If you and another 1000 Paizonians here decide to band together and make the kingdom of shiny paladins, land of safety, you can make that happen. Hell, you can count on my sword.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Can I say Goonswarm?
When you have one of the largest Alliances that claim that its goal is to run the game for all other players
Goonfleet's primary goal was, for the time that I was following their actions, the elimination of BoB and its associated vassal corps. It would surprise me to learn that their stated goal was ruining the game for everyone else.
What is everyone's problem with us goons? We don't want to ruin games we just want to have fun like you guys. Its EvE's fault for exiling us and calling us trash.
I haven't played in a long while, but when I played, being a goon was great. We had a list of allies (French and Russian alliances mostly). We had a list of enemies (BoB and friends). We treated our allies well. We were constantly at war with our enemies. We sometimes even converted those enemies into friends. Those were good times.
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Goblin Squad Member
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See the big dark region in the center? That's the zone where you are safe. That's the established, computer controlled kingdom. If you try to start something there, the guards will destroy you. I am certain there will be plenty of developer designed content within safe zone to keep the PvE only players happy. There has to be enough there to make James Jacobs happy. I think you will be fine.
Safe-ish please. You can easily lose your ship in high sec and/or get your stuff stolen by a corp thief.
I doubt that the guy that yesterday has lost a Itty 3 with 17 billions in sister probes (about 500 $ if converted in game time) to a suicide ganker will be so happy to have been avenged by CONCORD.Sure, a loss that big is rare, but people losing stuff worth 1-2 billions to a suicide gankers are everyday event.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I haven't played in a long while, but when I played, being a goon was great. We had a list of allies (French and Russian alliances mostly). We had a list of enemies (BoB and friends). We treated our allies well. We were constantly at war with our enemies. We sometimes even converted those enemies into friends. Those were good times.
Cool, that's much more in-line with my understanding of how it all went.
If the PVP aspect is anything like EVE I am in.
For those of you who don't want to PVP, that's ok too.
Take a look at the Eve Political Map.
See the big dark region in the center? That's the zone where you are safe. That's the established, computer controlled kingdom. If you try to start something there, the guards will destroy you. I am certain there will be plenty of developer designed content within safe zone to keep the PvE only players happy. There has to be enough there to make James Jacobs happy. I think you will be fine.
Not look at the colored sections around the map. That's the wilderness. The wilderness will quickly be conquered as PCs build nations. Nations and alliances will shift. I've played EVE in the goon swarm. I can tell you, living in Goon controlled territory as a Goon or a Goon ally? 99.999% safe. Because they organize patrols to hunt for intruders.
So when I wanted to PVE, I hung out doing my own thing in Goon territory. As safe as anyone in the computer controlled region could be.
When I wanted to PVP I could join one of the hunting patrols or raiding parties or if I was really lucky I happened to be free during the siege of a major system.
I could do either freely as I desired. It was awesome.
An open PVP system doesn't mean lawless anarchy. An open PVP system where players can build castles and towns and stores and whatever means the players will make the laws. As long as there is enough territory to go around that any one faction can't conquer it all, there will be places to visit.
And if I learned anything from the goons, its that even the newest player can make a difference. If you and another 1000 Paizonians here decide to band together and make the kingdom of shiny paladins, land of safety, you can make that happen. Hell, you can count on my sword.
~whistles~ DAMN!!! Now you are making me want to play EVE Online. ~cries~ I have only so many hours in a day! Why must you torment me so? why?
~grins~ Ok. You have a good point. Another of my concerns is, how are explorers and wanderers handled? I like to go off the beaten path at times to see what if over that hill there. I do not plan on hurting anyone unless they fight me first. That is something to think about.
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Goblin Squad Member
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And if I learned anything from the goons, its that even the newest player can make a difference. If you and another 1000 Paizonians here decide to band together and make the kingdom of shiny paladins, land of safety, you can make that happen. Hell, you can count on my sword.
Now recruiting dragon-tacklers! No, we don't have stasis webifiers, but we do have plenty of oven mitts and fly paper!
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Goblin Squad Member
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~whistles~ DAMN!!! Now you are making me want to play EVE Online. ~cries~ I have only so many hours in a day! Why must you torment me so? why?
~grins~ Ok. You have a good point. Another of my concerns is, how are explorers and wanderers handled? I like to go off the beaten path at times to see what if over that hill there. I do not plan on hurting anyone unless they fight me first. That is something to think about.
If you plan on wandering the wilderness, you need to be prepared to defend yourself (or be very good at running away). This holds true in EVE and I expect it will hold true in Pathfinder Online.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I have played on a PVP server in both WOW and WARHAMMER ONLINE-even though I don't like pvp in general. I joined because my friends were there. I prefer to solo; yet still I developed high level characters in both games. If I ran into a dedicated griefer I basically had four options: 1)switch to another of my characters for awhile 2) port back to my home inn if I hadn't blown the 1 hr cooldown 3) rez at a graveyard and pay the 10% durability cost or, 4) retrieve my body and run. All these with 'find something else to do' added on. In a large and detailed world this should not be difficult. I sometimes enjoyed the various battlegrounds and arena because I could take it or leave it. Some of the posts seem to ignore that there will be consequences for player-killing; it depends on where you want to take your character. Giving the player the option of resetting his/her respawn point at will, regardless of whatever other penalties there are for death would alleviate a lot of concerns. Just as in real life, if you venture too far out into the wild w/o the requisite prepardness or strength, you will be Blair Witched. Where the Blair Witch faultlines lie is up to the developer.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Ryan, does that mean that if you're a player who doesn't want PvP (most notibly, doesn't want to deal with other players attacking them) and you head off to the deep wilderness, far from towns, laws, etc, then you're simply SOL if someone attacks you? If so, then that is unfortunate.Yes, that is what it means. You need to think about other players as being a part of the world just like wandering monsters. They're predators, and if you venture out alone you're the prey.
Sorry. No longer interested.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I much prefer the open world FFA PVP even with harsh death penalties like full loot or permadeath but I'm a sucker for difficulty and the rush.
In UO I was a PKKer (Player Killer Killer). I like the way communities form and truly depend on one another for support and the camaraderie is real. Its not about phat lewts.
I like these risky and open PVP not because I grief or PK, I like playing the good guy. >;+)
"Z"
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Goblin Squad Member
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Sorry. No longer interested.Ryan, does that mean that if you're a player who doesn't want PvP (most notibly, doesn't want to deal with other players attacking them) and you head off to the deep wilderness, far from towns, laws, etc, then you're simply SOL if someone attacks you? If so, then that is unfortunate.Yes, that is what it means. You need to think about other players as being a part of the world just like wandering monsters. They're predators, and if you venture out alone you're the prey.
What about this, exactly, eliminated your interest?
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Goblin Squad Member
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Well thats pretty much killed of any intest me or any of my friends would have had in this game.Are you sure you're speaking for all of your friends, here? It would be pretty remarkable if none of your friends had any interest in non-consensual PvP.
I mean, everyone's got their kinks.
I think I know my friends somewhat better than you do.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I have played on a PVP server in both WOW and WARHAMMER ONLINE-even though I don't like pvp in general. I joined because my friends were there. I prefer to solo; yet still I developed high level characters in both games. If I ran into a dedicated griefer I basically had four options: 1)switch to another of my characters for awhile 2) port back to my home inn if I hadn't blown the 1 hr cooldown 3) rez at a graveyard and pay the 10% durability cost or, 4) retrieve my body and run.
5) Summon a couple guildmates to stomp the griefer if he tries to ambush your corpse retrieval.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I think I know my friends somewhat better than you do.Well thats pretty much killed of any intest me or any of my friends would have had in this game.Are you sure you're speaking for all of your friends, here? It would be pretty remarkable if none of your friends had any interest in non-consensual PvP.
I mean, everyone's got their kinks.
Actually, I'm positive that you know your friends better than I know your friends.
What I'm skeptical of is your ability to know all of your friends so well that you can definitively speak on their behalf about a mode of play that is enjoyed by some significant percentage of the overall population. It stretches believability that none of them have any interest in open-world PvP unless the number of friends is very limited.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I think I know my friends somewhat better than you do.Well thats pretty much killed of any intest me or any of my friends would have had in this game.Are you sure you're speaking for all of your friends, here? It would be pretty remarkable if none of your friends had any interest in non-consensual PvP.
I mean, everyone's got their kinks.
Actually, I'm positive that you know your friends better than I know your friends.
What I'm skeptical of is your ability to know all of your friends so well that you can definitively speak on their behalf about a mode of play that is enjoyed by some significant percentage of the overall population. It stretches believability that none of them have any interest in open-world PvP unless the number of friends is very limited.
Number of friends interested in any form of MMO = 3. Amount interested in Pvp = 0
+1 to that. I tend to solo a lot, especially since I am busy with RL stuff and have little time to play. That makes finding groups harder than I like. PVP should be relagated to specific areas / servers. Having an Arena that alows PVP would be cool. But I prefer PVE, either solo or in a group.Well thats pretty much killed of any intest me or any of my friends would have had in this game.I have to admit that answer was a bit of a turn-off for me, too.
+1 from me as well. I enjoy solo and PvE, but dislike PvP greatly. Making the game more or less only PvP kills my interest in the whole thing.
What's more sophisticated than a 'real' gaming environment with 'real' choices and 'real' consequences?I agree these 'nut job kids' are unfortunate, but I have faith in the established staff's ability to minimize that issue.
I'll wait and see. Just the thought of it turns me off a bit though. Hence the harshing my zen comment.
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Goblin Squad Member
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+1 from me as well. I enjoy solo and PvE, but dislike PvP greatly. Making the game more or less only PvP kills my interest in the whole thing.Can you explain that position Seeker? How do you enjoy PvE and dislike PvP so much? The only difference is who's on the other end. (And frankly enemy PC's tend to be smarter and more organized than enemy Monsters.)
Honestly I tend to think of it ALL as PvE (anything that's not you or part of your crew is part of your environment)
The game is designed in such a way that you are supposed to beat monsters most of the time. PvP, by its very nature, is not designed that way. Two equally-skilled individuals will, on average, lose 50% of the time they fight one another. Furthermore, in open-world PvP the aggressor is typically someone who both enjoys and is good at PvP, so the chances of the person being attacked winning the fight drops to below 50% on average.
In other words, in order to tolerate open-world PvP you have to either be good at the game and/or have the patience and emotional maturity to handle the occasional defeat. A lot of people are terrible at games, and a lot of people want to win all the time.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I have to agree with kyrt-rider. Although I also agree with many of the objections on here about how anonymity brings out the worst in people. One solution to this would be to make the NPC authorities in a region respond to people's alignment and make the alignment entirely determined by ones actions (maybe you choose the starting point, but it shifts as you play a certain way). Likewise, limit the access to instant travel and players are forced to either deal daily with the same people (removing anonymity) or move elsewhere (which only starts the process over...and if you do not go far enough, your negative reputation may precede you.
Hmmm, that is an interesting notion too...maybe it is possible to have not only an alignment, but a reputation which is the "sum" of how other players rate their interactions with you. The more "powerful" and the number of players who you interact with determine the strength of your reputation (determining how far it travels). Alignment is universal, reputation is both regional and fades in time.
I find RP and the lack of free PvP to be irreconcilable.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I strongly prefer the solo and PvE experience - I've eschewed PvP servers for years now. That said, I trust that any venture the Paizo folks are involved with will yield a fun, engaging and innovative end product. If that new venture includes a strong PvP element, then I will give it a shot with an open mind, and prepare for Paizo to once again wow me. After all, there was a time I didn't think I'd ever enjoy running adventure paths :-).
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Kyrt-ryder (this is my opinion but is similar to seekers stance)
Open world PvP also leads to griefing, and can make a player PvP when they really have no desire to.
If you have 1 hour to kill before work, and log in to finish this quest you had been working on, you can have that time completely wasted because some guy you don't know with better gear/levels/whathaveyou randomly comes along and decides to punk your behind. Then out of whim he stays in the area and does it a few more times. You end up with no progress, no chance to win, and a completely wasted playtime window in addition to personal aggrivation/stress/frustration.
Hope that helps see some of the 'other side' perspective on that view.
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Goblin Squad Member
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That's an interesting solution Kyrt-Ryder, and one logically explained. As a player kills more neutral/good players, their alignment shifts toward evil meaning they have to deal with evil gods (who play an active part in this world) when they die. TO be rezzed I can see the evil gods asking for more than the good gods in return for the "favor".
(Although I would hope alignment is not quit so simple.)
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Goblin Squad Member
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+1 from me as well. I enjoy solo and PvE, but dislike PvP greatly. Making the game more or less only PvP kills my interest in the whole thing.Can you explain that position Seeker? How do you enjoy PvE and dislike PvP so much? The only difference is who's on the other end. (And frankly enemy PC's tend to be smarter and more organized than enemy Monsters.)
Honestly I tend to think of it ALL as PvE (anything that's not you or part of your crew is part of your environment)
Not seeker, but:
Most of the time the goal of the guy that start PVP is to hurt the player, not the character. You can get plenty of confirmations from the post that kind of character make in the relevant forums, gloating about the reactions of their targets.
You can go to the EVE forum a read a few threads in the crime and punishment section, I think you will see what I mean.
I have a noticeable distaste for that kind of behaviour. A game that support it should have plenty of positive aspects to make me overcome that distaste.
As I will not be the one to start the PVP I will always be at a disadvantage, leaving the initiative to the guy that thrive in PVP and letting him chose the terms of the battle. That mean that he will be always in a advantageous position.
so if PVP is sufficiently prevalent I will be cut off from pieces of the game. It seem a reasonable motivation for a reduced enthusiasm for what could be a great game.
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Goblin Squad Member
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If you have 1 hour to kill before work, and log in to finish this quest you had been working on, you can have that time completely wasted because some guy you don't know with better gear/levels/whathaveyou randomly comes along and decides to punk your behind. Then out of whim he stays in the area and does it a few more times. You end up with no progress, no chance to win, and a completely wasted playtime window in addition to personal aggrivation/stress/frustration.
I agree, which is why quests shouldn't lead to the demillitrized zones. As long as the PvE quests are in the "safe" areas, you don't have to worry about the quests being interrupted by griefing.
I have faith that the Paizo crew will be able to find a good balance.
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Wow... PvE is designed to win almost all the time? I'm certainly grateful the developers are going with a risk vs reward game design so the carebears (I only just learned that term after reading this thread and googling it by the way, amusing terminology that) don't just slack off, play on the kiddie slopes, and accomplish the same things at the same rate as those of us out there risking our necks for the sake of a dream.
The risk of possibly dying and the challenge is a huge part of the reason I play games. If it's too easy I find it rather meaningless. I'm rather looking forward to seeing just what we can build in this game and how the region evolves in play.
Another thing that's meaningless is when my brand-new 1st-level character is repeatedly stomped by a maxed-out built-for-PVP character, without being able to accomplish anything. That's what happened the last time I tried a game where PVP was allowed, and I've stayed clear of all games that include PVP-elements since (10 years and counting).
I prefer exploring on my own terms and at my own pace. That doesn't mean I want everything handed to me on a silver platter, and risk of death should definitely be a part of the game. Just not meaningless, unavoidable death.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Wow... PvE is designed to win almost all the time? I'm certainly grateful the developers are going with a risk vs reward game design so the carebears (I only just learned that term after reading this thread and googling it by the way, amusing terminology that) don't just slack off, play on the kiddie slopes, and accomplish the same things at the same rate as those of us out there risking our necks for the sake of a dream.
The risk of possibly dying and the challenge is a huge part of the reason I play games. If it's too easy I find it rather meaningless. I'm rather looking forward to seeing just what we can build in this game and how the region evolves in play.
It is not about dying and losing to the computer or losing equipment.
It is about losing and dying to someone that then will gloat while looting your corpse, display the remains on the forum, make a kill board with the ranks of who he has killed and the looted stuff and care about killing other players characters instead of reaching the game goals.
Hell, to take it one step farther, Pathfinder Online could keep track of one's aggressive attacks (the times they assault another PC without being in War against them) and have them accumulate to a greater penalty when that PC eventually does die.In that way, 'griefers' would have things much more difficult. Sooner or later they will bite off more than they can chew, and they will pay the time for every crime.
Oh yes, the dreaded "I have a negative security status, I can't enter a city as the guards will kill me".
Followed by: "Oh well, I will send my second character Jamie the Bland to the nearest city to buy what I need."I guess I get what you're saying Diego, though having a built in Perception vs Stealth mechanic and warning signs go off to alert you of someone creeping around, and an initiative mechanic if both combatants are aware when the fight is initiated could go some ways to mitigating the problem of which you speak.
Perhaps I'm looking at this scenario with rose-colored glasses, but I'm really excited by the immersion of it all. By how open-ended it is, the danger, the risk, the reward, the communal story.
Personally, I'm not a huge PvP person either. I have a tendency to want to master my abilities and be capable of kicking ass, but my primary purpose is interaction with the world (including people in it) and development of the plot.
I am looking it through 6 years of EVE tinted lens :P
It teach you a lot of ways to be a griefer, even when you are simply interested in avoiding them.After a point it is self perpetrating. "Everyone that enter our territory is a potential spy or griefer, so we should kill him on sight" (NBSI policy;: Not Blue Shoot It). It is perfectly logic.
In the end all the kingdoms will be LE: everyone that is not one of us is against us and should be killed or enslaved.
Goblinworks Founder
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If the PVP aspect is anything like EVE I am in.
For those of you who don't want to PVP, that's ok too.
Take a look at the Eve Political Map.
See the big dark region in the center? That's the zone where you are safe. That's the established, computer controlled kingdom. If you try to start something there, the guards will destroy you. I am certain there will be plenty of developer designed content within safe zone to keep the PvE only players happy. There has to be enough there to make James Jacobs happy. I think you will be fine.
Not look at the colored sections around the map. That's the wilderness. The wilderness will quickly be conquered as PCs build nations. Nations and alliances will shift. I've played EVE in the goon swarm. I can tell you, living in Goon controlled territory as a Goon or a Goon ally? 99.999% safe. Because they organize patrols to hunt for intruders.
So when I wanted to PVE, I hung out doing my own thing in Goon territory. As safe as anyone in the computer controlled region could be.
When I wanted to PVP I could join one of the hunting patrols or raiding parties or if I was really lucky I happened to be free during the siege of a major system.
I could do either freely as I desired. It was awesome.
An open PVP system doesn't mean lawless anarchy. An open PVP system where players can build castles and towns and stores and whatever means the players will make the laws. As long as there is enough territory to go around that any one faction can't conquer it all, there will be places to visit.
And if I learned anything from the goons, its that even the newest player can make a difference. If you and another 1000 Paizonians here decide to band together and make the kingdom of shiny paladins, land of safety, you can make that happen. Hell, you can count on my sword.
This is a great explanation of how sandbox PvP should work. Thanks Deinol.
I for one am really hoping that the high sec/low sec style of EvE is what Goblinworks are going for.
Can you explain that position Seeker? How do you enjoy PvE and dislike PvP so much? The only difference is who's on the other end.
Not at all. I like to win most of my battles in a video game. If I were winning most of my battles in PvP, I'd feel like I was picking on people.
(And frankly enemy PC's tend to be smarter and more organized than enemy Monsters.)
Exactly. I don't want to fight a small number of enemies as tough as I am. I want to fight lots of enemies weaker than me (without feeling guilty).
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Goblin Squad Member
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What about this, exactly, eliminated your interest?Sorry. No longer interested.
As a casual gamer who doesn't have the time to dedicate to making my character a super combat monster, I'm primarily interested in roleplaying, and exploration to the limits of my character's abilities. If I overestimate myself and get nailed by the scripted hazards, that's my own fault and just the breaks. That's the kind of game I personally enjoy.
When you bring non-consenting PvP into it, instead of playing the game I'm interested in, I'm now forced to play the game which someone else wants, but I don't. They have the skills, time, and practice to get good at their game. Which isn't the same as mine.
So having to play a game where someone else can attack me on their terms if I go somewhere 'not safe' simply isn't what I'm interested in. Having unconsenting PvP is a no-go for me.
As you might guess, I generally stick to single player games. But until Mr Dancy's explanation I was prepared to look closer at this. Now I'm still likely to keep an eye on things on the forum out of general interest, but no more than that.
And I agree that would suck, which is why the current plan is safe zones where PvP is foolish.
Yes, and it'll be interesting to find out how they're going to make it work. Paizo might bring me into the MMO fold if they do this aspect right :)