Goblin Squad Member
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The problem isn't with the idea of roleplayed assassins acting IC so much as with the sort of people who will make a level 20 assassin just to hunt level 1 characters because it'll annoy their players.I get that. But remember, I'm asking for an immersive world. What the hell did your level 1 character do to bring on a level 20 assassin? Probably not a damn thing, and that would break the immersion as much as playing in a danger-from-NPC-only world. And what kind of assassin's guild, or self-respecting assassin, would go after a level 1 as a level 20? A level 1 payout wouldn't be enough to get that level 20 out of bed, or pay for the harlots who spent the night there with him.
How many 'griefers' will still enjoy it when hits are being taken out on them continuously? Or instead of an 'assassin' someone makes a griefer-hunter?
I had dysentery on my first tour in Iraq. I got better.
Immersion?
You know what's immersive?
Everybody has dysentery because it's medieval.
Everybody has diarrhea once every three days...
Because you had modern median and understanding of both what causes it and how to prevent it and keep you from dying.
I had dysentery on my first tour in Iraq. I got better.
Immersion?
You know what's immersive?
Everybody has dysentery because it's medieval.
Everybody has diarrhea once every three days...
DINGDINGDINGDINGDINGDINGDING!!!
Exactly!!!Now THAT'S just the IMMERSION we need!!!
Diarrhea from filthy water supply!!!
and worms.....lotsa tapeworms.
In fact,....I want to simulate the churning of my stomach after the first time I ate nothing but MRE's for a week, and the dump I finally took after four days of being clogged up.....the dump that would never end.
THAT is immersion.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Because you had modern median and understanding of both what causes it and how to prevent it and keep you from dying.I had dysentery on my first tour in Iraq. I got better.
Immersion?
You know what's immersive?
Everybody has dysentery because it's medieval.
Everybody has diarrhea once every three days...
What I didn't have? Healing magic from the clerics or other divine casters.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I had dysentery on my first tour in Iraq. I got better.
Immersion?
You know what's immersive?
Everybody has dysentery because it's medieval.
Everybody has diarrhea once every three days...DINGDINGDINGDINGDINGDINGDING!!!
Exactly!!!
Now THAT'S just the IMMERSION we need!!!Diarrhea from filthy water supply!!!
and worms.....lotsa tapeworms.
In fact,....I want to simulate the churning of my stomach after the first time I ate nothing but MRE's for a week, and the dump I finally took after four days of being clogged up.....the dump that would never end.
THAT is immersion.
And hurt like hell...
How many 'griefers' will still enjoy it when hits are being taken out on them continuously? Or instead of an 'assassin' someone makes a griefer-hunter?That is done in other games when it occurs. It still happens a lot. With the same offenders even. For some, it just amuses them.
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Just one response and I probably will be silent on this matter.
Personally, I don't like "getting people back". I don't like revenge. I don't like pvp. I am a very non-competitive person. I love team games and team work. I love working against an environment which has a strict code of conduct...
I totally get where you're coming from Terek. However, we're on opposite sides of the fence unfortunately.
I play WoW and quickly came to the realisation that if I choose to play on a "world-pvp" server, I need to better my game or put up with the ganking.
I stuck it out and now I enjoy playing in an environment that allows RP and PvP (I play on the Emerald Dream server that is focused on both). The added "realism" of being able to be attacked or attack another player myself makes the game a lot more interesting.
To make it better for different play styles, there should be servers that focus on that type of play. If you do not want PvP in your game, go a PvE focused environment. If you want it, go a PvP environment.
Players should be able to choose if they want it or not. However, it looks like it is on the cards for the game anyway.
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Apologies if the term 'carebear' has offended people. It is a term that is generally thrown about when discussing PvE servers on PvP ones (e.g. Server X is a carebear server). YMMV.
I have no opposition to people who desire to avoid PvP and choose to play in an environment that vastly reduces the chance of encountering it (usually only by choice then). However, it is highly annoying when a player chooses a World PvP server and the complains continuously about being ganked.
I would definitely like to see some way that people can choose between the two. Making one environment more focused on PvE and others on PvP.
IMO, PvE only gets old after awhile.
RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16
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What if the death penalties for a character that gets labled a criminal/murderer, etc that initiated unwanted PvP is permadeath? That might be enough of a deterent to stop people just random ambushing other player, but still allow the PvP elements that some players look for.
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You are going to get 'griefers' no matter what! I see 'griefers' as being able to exist in a PvE or a PvP environment (I do not see the term as being exclusively relating to PvP).
It will come down to either you are thick-skinned enough to deal with the occassional 'griefer' or 'troll' or you walk away from the game.
Nothing Paizo can do for Pathfinder Online will ensure that you will not having people ruin the game experience for you. If we can encounter people at tabletop games who do this, then guaranteed, as with other MMOs, we're going to get people doing it with this game.
/end rant.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Just about the only solution I managed to find, Chubbs, was having two entirely separate worlds, one for the serious players willing to risk their necks, and one for the casual players who are not willing.
The current plan to have 'safe' zones in and near civilization and 'wild' zones farther out is a half-way approach towards the solution I came up with, but many people have made very clear statements of not viewing that as satisfactory.
When you boil it all down, the truth is clear.
It's not at all fair for the players playing in the real game with the real risk and the real challenge to be playing alongside people who can just close their eyes and pretend the world is a safe place while they go about doing whatever it is they do.
These are two very distinct games with distinct styles of gameplay. I've come to the conclusion that it is, quite literally, IMPOSSIBLE to please the vast majority (75% of each side.)
To "real" game, with "real" risk?
That is some interesting word choice. If I spend 8-10 hours Putting together a house, and some jerk spends 10 seconds killing me and then squats in the house, whose "real" experience is valid? Or worse just takes all my stuff because I was working a real job?
Your word choice infantilizes and insults those of us who want to PLAY a game rather than LIVE in one. It is not appreciated.
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Goblin Squad Member
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That wasn't my intention Dude, and I'm sorry you felt that way about what I said.
Build your house in the civilized safe zone and you won't have to worry, anybody would be stupid to take your house (except through the courts if they were detailed enough and sleezy enough. That could be fun.)
It's cool, my English Major is showing. I did a lot of stuff on people using authenticity as a weapon so I tend to be prone to pointing it out. I can accept a difference in playstyles, and may even opt in to PVP butI'd like the option to enjoy the "theme park" content, without fear of getting ganked.
To me the main draw of a Pathfinder MMO is more the adventures set in Golarion, written or approved by the writers of the excellent AP and Modules lines.
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Goblin Squad Member
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On a larger scale, if I own/run a larger area of land and someone decides to raid it and overthrow my keep/stronghold while I am offline, do I have no other defenses besides basic stuff? If I am away for 2-3 days can all my acquired stuff be taken? How is this stuff handled....I played Evony online for a long while and people would probe your defenses to find out when you weren't around (sleeping or just not available) and then coordinate a series of attacks on your cities and take them. It gets frustrating dealing with a game that you can lose because you have a job or want to sleep....That's how EVE works. You need to have people on and able to defend your holdings in the event of attack. Many a system was lost to the Russians while certain US corps slept. With great power, etc. etc.
And it bring with it all the associated problems: you need to thrust other people you have only meet on the internet with your in game possessions. Possessions that can be sold on on e-Bay for for Real Life money.
I suspect that part of the problem in EVE is the sheer size of the game. A single shard universe with more than 300.000 accounts.
Even if the dedicated griefers are only 1 in 100, it men you have 3.000 of them and they will find each other.
So you have whole corporations (call them gilds) dedicated to destroying new corporations of very young players and a density of about 200 accounts for each existing solar system, an area that is relatively small.
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Goblin Squad Member
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So your goody two-shoes altruistic love-muffin is okay, but I'm not allowed to play my character? And that somehow negates my right, inclination, desires, or willingness to play MMOs? Maybe I'll use one of my other character slots to start up an NPC Rights organization...
As the goal of your character is to eliminate other player characters from the game, no it is not allowed.
I suggest again that you think about what you want: a character with teh ability to assassinate other player characters, possibly when theya re off line.
So, what will be the effect?
- Resurrection is easy: No effect from your actions, your character is broken
- Resurrection is problematic, it impact the resurrected character in a meaningful way. Your character is breaking mine.
- Permadeath. If you "touch" my character it is permanently broken.
I see a lot of broken and fun for only 1 player. The good of the many outweigh the good for a few.
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Goblin Squad Member
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How many 'griefers' will still enjoy it when hits are being taken out on them continuously? Or instead of an 'assassin' someone makes a griefer-hunter?That is done in other games when it occurs. It still happens a lot. With the same offenders even. For some, it just amuses them.
And those will be the people who do it no matter what you try to prevent it from happening. Removing it from the game as a whole won't make the game better, it'll make it's playerbase smaller. And if there are some penalties etc. on death/capture, especially for those known griefers, that are being discussed, then they may very well lose the ability to grief as well as they once had. Either they'll leave, or will try to work back up to it, and maybe encounter their own griefers while trying to get to a state where they can do it again.
*EDIT*-To fix quote blocking.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I get that. But remember, I'm asking for an immersive world. What the hell did your level 1 character do to bring on a level 20 assassin? Probably not a damn thing, and that would break the immersion as much as playing in a danger-from-NPC-only world. And what kind of assassin's guild, or self-respecting assassin, would go after a level 1 as a level 20? A level 1 payout wouldn't be enough to get that level 20 out of bed, or pay for the harlots who spent the night there with him.Do people stop playing Pathfinder if they're not given 50 point buy and +5 weapons to start the game?No, but I imagine a lot of people will quit a particular table where the DM keeps killing their low-level characters with a level 20 assassin tricked out with +5 weapons and armor while they're just trying to get to Thistletop.
That's the equivalent of what a lot of us are concerned about.
What has done the corp with 1 month old players to attract the attention of players with 5 years of experience in EVE?
They have mined the belts in the high security area.I.e. : they have been seen, they appear to be weak, they are easy to bully.
Start war declaration from people piloting battleships and advanced tech ships with maximal skill against characters that can barely know how the game work.
Then you can hunt them wherever they want. If they want to play they have the options of:
- losing what they have
- stay holed in a NPC station
- use another character and forget the previous one for a month.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I get that. But remember, I'm asking for an immersive world. What the hell did your level 1 character do to bring on a level 20 assassin? Probably not a damn thing, and that would break the immersion as much as playing in a danger-from-NPC-only world. And what kind of assassin's guild, or self-respecting assassin, would go after a level 1 as a level 20? A level 1 payout wouldn't be enough to get that level 20 out of bed, or pay for the harlots who spent the night there with him.Do people stop playing Pathfinder if they're not given 50 point buy and +5 weapons to start the game?No, but I imagine a lot of people will quit a particular table where the DM keeps killing their low-level characters with a level 20 assassin tricked out with +5 weapons and armor while they're just trying to get to Thistletop.
That's the equivalent of what a lot of us are concerned about.
What has done the corp with 1 month old players to attract the attention of players with 5 years of experience in EVE?
They have mined the belts in the high security area.I.e. : they have been seen, they appear to be weak, they are easy to bully.
Start war declaration from people piloting battleships and advanced tech ships with maximal skill against characters that can barely know how the game work.
Then you can hunt them wherever they want. If they want to play they have the options of:
- losing what they have
- stay holed in a NPC station
- use another character and forget the previous one for a month.
Another misrepresentation of my point. Character, not player. Immersion, not metagaming.
For all the pro PvPers, I have a few questions.
Are you saying that at your tables you have no problems if each of the players decide to consitently kill each other, and get revenge for it?
Do most of your campaigns revolve around fighting other PC's, or warring factions run by each player?
Do you like the type of 'immersion' where each player has free reign to kill anyone you come across, just to prove that you can, or that it can be done?
The reason I like Pathfinder is the world and stories, and I have yet to see one AP where the story revolved around running around killing other PC's. To me the TT game is about working as a group to follow a story and be the hero. I do not see how expansive PvP accomplishes this most basic groundwork of the game I have loved for so long.
I haven't played in any TT where PvP was common or glorified, and most that do are complained about as bad tables. So, why is it that as soon as the game goes electronic, PvP is expected to be the norm of it? Just because the other MMO's do it? Why don't we want to see an MMO become as close to PF as possible, instead of Golarion becoming as close to other MMO's as possible?
EDIT: and playing an Assassin in PF, is that PvP or PvE? Do you kill other PC's or story relevant NPC's?
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Goblin Squad Member
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Then the one month old players seek out the real enemies of the people who are attacking them, another clan with 5+ year experience. They make an alliance...then go instigate a war with the griefers. As the griefers move their forces to attack the new players, their new allies circle behind and destroy the structures in the griefers territory. Then without the defensive structures to fall back to, everyone attacks the griefers and splits their territory among the neighbor nations. Devs did not have to provide any of that content, welcome to the sandbox endgame.
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Goblin Squad Member
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| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Another misrepresentation of my point. Character, not player. Immersion, not metagaming.
I don't care if you will target only equal worth opponents and you will not metagame.
Your assassin idea will be usable to kill weak opponents and to metagame very easily.As the character concept is made for that kind of behaviour it is a broken concept.
You are campaigning for the right to assassinate other player characters. It will be used to harass weak characters.
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Goblin Squad Member
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For all the pro PvPers, I have a few questions.
Are you saying that at your tables you have no problems if each of the players decide to consitently kill each other, and get revenge for it?
Do most of your campaigns revolve around fighting other PC's, or warring factions run by each player?
Do you like the type of 'immersion' where each player has free reign to kill anyone you come across, just to prove that you can, or that it can be done?
The reason I like Pathfinder is the world and stories, and I have yet to see one AP where the story revolved around running around killing other PC's. To me the TT game is about working as a group to follow a story and be the hero. I do not see how expansive PvP accomplishes this most basic groundwork of the game I have loved for so long.
I haven't played in any TT where PvP was common or glorified, and most that do are complained about as bad tables. So, why is it that as soon as the game goes electronic, PvP is expected to be the norm of it? Just because the other MMO's do it? Why don't we want to see an MMO become as close to PF as possible, instead of Golarion becoming as close to other MMO's as possible?
I do not attempt to sit 1000+ people at my table, each with different ideas about what is fun. However, if I did sit 1000+ at my table, I would be advocating those who play alike team together and interact with the other groups. With limited resources, items, room, whatever...these interactions will not always be peaceful.
EDIT: And for the record, I am not Pro-PvP. I am pro-"realism". Yes I know this is a fantasy world, and a video game at that, but if I want to attack someone I should be able to. I do argue though that there should be "realistic" consequences for ones actions as well. I am all for life in jail or capital punishment perma-death. If you get thrown in jail you cannot use that character until it is freed or until you break it out. And as I mentioned, I would also support capital punishment for crimes resulting in perma-death. I am not sure how it would be implemented, but you would get no argument from me where they to do so.
Another misrepresentation of my point. Character, not player. Immersion, not metagaming.I don't care if you will target only equal worth opponents and you will not metagame.
Your assassin idea will be usable to kill weak opponents and to metagame very easily.
As the character concept is made for that kind of behaviour it is a broken concept.You are campaigning for the right to assassinate other player characters. It will be used to harass weak characters.
If you ask me, I don't even care if you intended to metagame or become immersed, playing an Assassin is still a stupid-as-hell idea in an MMO based on Pathfinder/Golarion. Unsurprisingly, PvP doesn't work at the table and only gets you angry players or frustrated DMs, and from my times playing World of Warcraft, I noticed that PvPers were consistently the biggest jerks on any servers, no matter if the server was a normal or a PvP one (PvP servers made a friend of mine hate both the Alliance and the Horde) so I wouldn't be surprised if Pathfinder Online PvPers would be as bad or even worse, given how so many people want to play an "Evil" character.
PvP and allowing Evil characters to be played realistically (from a Pathfinder point of view at least) will lead to one big damned mess like "Horde vs. Alliance" if you ask me. And if I even once hear "To hell with the good guys, let's go rape some more women!!", I would quit the game there and then.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Then the one month old players seek out the real enemies of the people who are attacking them, another clan with 5+ year experience. They make an alliance...then go instigate a war with the griefers. As the griefers move their forces to attack the new players, their new allies circle behind and destroy the structures in the griefers territory. Then without the defensive structures to fall back to, everyone attacks the griefers and splits their territory among the neighbor nations. Devs did not have to provide any of that content, welcome to the sandbox endgame.
And who are those enemies? The other guild of 1 month old players they destroyed last week? Most of them have quitted the game.
People playing that kind of game generally don't need to own structures. It can be taken for granted that when you log off your worn gear will disappear with you, so they will be practically invulnerable when off line.Sure one guild out of 10 will find the strength to endure and strike back strongly enough that they will leave them alone, but the majority will fold.
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Goblin Squad Member
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| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I haven't played in any TT where PvP was common or glorified, and most that do are complained about as bad tables. So, why is it that as soon as the game goes electronic, PvP is expected to be the norm of it? Just because the other MMO's do it? Why don't we want to see an MMO become as close to PF as possible, instead of Golarion becoming as close to other MMO's as possible?Um... I believe we're running into a terminology problem here. You keep saying "PvP this and PvP that" when you should be saying "Character vs character." A Character is a character is a character, whether it's played by the DM, by an AI, or by a Player. The only difference is in the amount of depth behind that character.
A player has a LOT more mental acumen to dedicate to a single character than a DM does who had to split it among the whole world, and is going to be a lot deeper and more 'real' than some AI program.
PvP is expected to be the norm, because Character vs Character is the norm. Every character has goals, dreams, and ambitions. Stand in the way of that at your peril.
No kyrt, PVP is very precise. The goal for that kind of player is to hurt the player, not the character. The character is an instrument for that kind of players, and that is part of the reason why it is so easy for them to grief. There is no real attachment to the character beyond his mechanical efficiency. So, as long as they get the goal of hurting the player, damaging their character is irrelevant as long as they can get replacement or mend it back.
Furthermore, yes, a PF assassin may (under certain rare circumstances) assassinate a party member. Most DM's would take control of the character from that point onward, but some (myself included) would let the Assassin character become an opponent under the control of the Assassin player to make his moves in the world, draw allies to himself, and seek his goals.
Please present some evidence of this, because I have only seen the examples of that which ended in the a****** PvPer getting banned from the table.
Actually, the last time I heard something like that happen, the guy who assassinated the rest of the party was kicked out, and a player who was really fond of his character almost beat the crap out of him. The PvPer was an Elf while the rest were humans and other beings that needed more sleep. He coup-de-graced them while they were asleep and tried to defend his case with "story reasons", which didn't work. One of those guys who got killed was my 3.5e / Pathfinder DM.
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Goblin Squad Member
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For all the pro PvPers, I have a few questions.
Are you saying that at your tables you have no problems if each of the players decide to consitently kill each other, and get revenge for it?
Do most of your campaigns revolve around fighting other PC's, or warring factions run by each player?
Do you like the type of 'immersion' where each player has free reign to kill anyone you come across, just to prove that you can, or that it can be done?
The reason I like Pathfinder is the world and stories, and I have yet to see one AP where the story revolved around running around killing other PC's. To me the TT game is about working as a group to follow a story and be the hero. I do not see how expansive PvP accomplishes this most basic groundwork of the game I have loved for so long.
I haven't played in any TT where PvP was common or glorified, and most that do are complained about as bad tables. So, why is it that as soon as the game goes electronic, PvP is expected to be the norm of it? Just because the other MMO's do it? Why don't we want to see an MMO become as close to PF as possible, instead of Golarion becoming as close to other MMO's as possible?
I do not attempt to sit 1000+ people at my table, each with different ideas about what is fun. However, if I did sit 1000+ at my table, I would be advocating those who play alike team together and interact with the other groups. With limited resources, items, room, whatever...these interactions will not always be peaceful.
EDIT: And for the record, I am not Pro-PvP. I am pro-"realism". Yes I know this is a fantasy world, and a video game at that, but if I want to attack someone I should be able to. I do argue though that there should be "realistic" consequences for ones actions as well. I am all for life in jail or capital punishment perma-death. If you get thrown in jail you cannot use that character until it is freed or until you break it out. And as I mentioned, I would also support capital punishment for...
Thank you. You responded how I was going to, especially the part about sitting around a table with thousands of people.
Side note, apparently, evil campaigns ARE all the rage.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Another misrepresentation of my point. Character, not player. Immersion, not metagaming.I don't care if you will target only equal worth opponents and you will not metagame.
Your assassin idea will be usable to kill weak opponents and to metagame very easily.
As the character concept is made for that kind of behaviour it is a broken concept.You are campaigning for the right to assassinate other player characters. It will be used to harass weak characters.
I'm campaigning for the right to go bowling without bumpers in the gutters.
Evil campaigns are over-rated, and technically most people playing them are doing it wrong, snapping off the most disgusting aspects and picking only the parts of being evil that are "kewl" from what I've seen. I'd still be happy with my Cleric of Sarenrae, and just because she's good-aligned doesn't mean she can't be cool with all them fire and light spells of hers.
Um... I believe we're running into a terminology problem here. You keep saying "PvP this and PvP that" when you should be saying "Character vs character." A Character is a character is a character, whether it's played by the DM, by an AI, or by a Player. The only difference is in the amount of depth behind that character.
No, because any NPC or Monster encounter in an MMO is part of the environment, or PvE. Just like at the table, an NPC may be a character, but because he is a Non-Player character, run by the DM, he is part of the Environment. Everything not controlled by another player, is Environment, PvE. Everything controlled by another player (of which the DM is not counted) is PvP.
Like someone else said, if your DM decided to attack the group with a single character 15 lvls above the party, because he was evil and nearby, frequently. WOuld that fulfill that 'Realism' for you, or would it get irritating.
Would you feel better about it if you had to go get your tougher friends to take them out "Gee, Elminster, this guy keeps attacking us for no reason. Could you do something about it while we stand back and watch?" I hear a lot of complaints about DMPC's dominating the game, how is having big brother come fight your battles for you any different now that it's online?
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Goblin Squad Member
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And who are those enemies? The other guild of 1 month old players they destroyed last week? Most of them have quitted the game.
People playing that kind of game generally don't need to own structures. It can be taken for granted that when you log off your worn gear will disappear with you, so they will be practically invulnerable when off line.Sure one guild out of 10 will find the strength to endure and strike back strongly enough that they will leave them alone, but the majority will fold.
Sorry, I missed the part that the clan of veteran players was composed of all the veteran players. I don't believe that is a realistic scenario. But, in a way I agree with you, the world needs to be big enough to move to a new region if you constantly find yourself fighting an unbeatable foe for resources. This to me is a bonus, not a negative. I must also disagree with you concerning the defensive structures, any established clan needs a place for storage or defense against even bigger clan or group of clans. These will always be vulnerable if a clan extends itself too far.
Would you make the devs remove a dragon from the game because your clan has decided to make a home at the opening to its cavern and you keep getting eaten? But it is griefing you...over and over...
I'm campaigning for the right to go bowling without bumpers in the gutters.
Sounds more like you are campaigning for the right to step on other people's toes just because some people want to do it to you. Some of those people who's toes you step on might not even want it themselves, so why should you do it in the first place?
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Goblin Squad Member
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If you ask me, I don't even care if you intended to metagame or become immersed, playing an Assassin is still a stupid-as-hell idea in an MMO based on Pathfinder/Golarion.Another misrepresentation of my point. Character, not player. Immersion, not metagaming.I don't care if you will target only equal worth opponents and you will not metagame.
Your assassin idea will be usable to kill weak opponents and to metagame very easily.
As the character concept is made for that kind of behaviour it is a broken concept.You are campaigning for the right to assassinate other player characters. It will be used to harass weak characters.
Red Mantis Assassins
Daggermark Assassin's Guild (River Kingdoms, btw)Daggermark Poisoner's Guild
Anaphexia
Side note, apparently, campaigns ARE all the rage.
Emphasis mine
Exactly my point. You agree that killing other characters is evil. Since a lot of gamers (most of the ones I've met) don't allow evil characters at their tables (as it disrupts the game, is the most common reason), why is it okay, nay requested, when it is a video game?
That doesn't even make sense. PC's kill other characters all the time. What do you think adventuring IS.
It DOES make sense. You kill faceless mooks for the most part, or do all your campaigns end with you killing your fellow player's characters without them even minding? Either you're delusional or you're really not getting the fact that this s*** will not fly in video games (for a lot of reasons) and those opposing these things might have a point or two.
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Goblin Squad Member
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| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
As for NPCs vs. PCs...I am with kyrt on this one. Ideally NPCs could pass the turing test too and other PCs would not be able to tell a player based character from a non-player based one. If you are really roleplaying, there is no difference between the people-ness of Joe the NPC bartender and Sally the PC Bard in my party; they both have dreams, sick days, the ability to act, etc.
If you treat them different due to NPC vs PC, then it is you who is meta-gaming.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I'm campaigning for the right to go bowling without bumpers in the gutters.Sounds more like you are campaigning for the right to step on other people's toes just because some people want to do it to you. Some of those people who's toes you step on might not even want it themselves, so why should you do it in the first place?
When did I say destroy all the bumpers so no one could bowl that way?
That's how PvP works in practice. You are grasping at the theory of it, but it doesn't work that way in the actual situation.
I know from actual PvP experiences in other MMO games, most of all from World of Warcraft. And from what I've heard, it's not any better in other games.