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I am working up a samurai for my next PFS character and went with the Katana as the weapon of choice. I looked through the two-handed Asian weapons in the UC and I looked through the two-handed exotic weapons only to find it in the one-handed exotic weapon list. Now like most american's my understanding of Japan's culture comes from the movies in which the Katana is almost always wielded two-handed (yes I have seen the original Seven Samurai). Still movies are not the most reliable sources of information, so, I did several internet searches over the last few days. It was quite amazing the vast amount of information available on samurai and the katana. However, no where did I find that the katana is used one-handed. So, who decided it would be one-handed and (more importantly) can it still be wielded with two-hands?
Its a two handed martial weapon if you have exotic it can be used one handed.
Also any OneHanded weapon can be weilded in two hands for the extra damage and power attack bonus.
So, who decided it would be one-handed and (more importantly) can it still be wielded with two-hands?
Miyamoto Musashi decided it in the 16th century, but you can wield it two handed.
Yes exactly, you can wield it either way.
As for the historical katanas, they were sometimes used one-handed with a wakizashi in the offhand who then were called daishō together. Apperently it was the symbol of the samurai so guess it was not uncommon to use the katana one-handed back then, but I actually don't really know.
Okay, I was planning on wielding it two-handed anyway. Since samurai are considered proficient with the katana (as well as the naginata and wakizashi)as a class feature, does that mean I have the choice of one- or two-handed?
That means you have the feat and may use it one handed, but you always have the option of using it two handed.
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Historically, dang near everybody used the katana two handed. Then Musashi figured out a way to fight with the katana in one hand and the wakizashi in the other hand, and he kicked the s@%% out of everybody, lived to old age, and wrote the Book of Five Rings, and got a train station in Miyamoto named after him with an epic statue and everything.
Musashi documentary on Youtube
I like this; it's kinda on the long side though.
Yes exactly, you can wield it either way.
As for the historical katanas, they were sometimes used one-handed with a wakizashi in the offhand who then were called daishō together. Apperently it was the symbol of the samurai so guess it was not uncommon to use the katana one-handed back then, but I actually don't really know.
No. The katana was almost never used two handed. Musashi was unique in that he actually fought with two blades. It's what made him famous.
In reality, the average man cannot use a katana one-handed effectively. It is too heavy a sword...he'll be slow, unable to parry effectively, or slash with appropriate force.
Most swords used in one hand are fairly light, and all weapon sets used effectively in RL are pretty light (main gauche fencing, for example).
And BTW, proficiency in the katana is not EXOTIC WEAPON PROF in the katana. YOu still need to blow the feat to use it one handed. The samurai is just proficient with them, despite them not being on the default martial weapons list.
==Aelryinth
Then why call it out if its just two handed use that would be like saying you have all simple and martial and you also have bastard sword prof.
And BTW, proficiency in the katana is not EXOTIC WEAPON PROF in the katana. YOu still need to blow the feat to use it one handed. The samurai is just proficient with them, despite them not being on the default martial weapons list.
To elaborate a little on what Talonhawke and Kyrt-ryder said, there is no such thing as "the default martial weapons list". If you have martial weapon proficiency then you are proficient in ALL martial weapons regardless of whether they appear in the Core Rulebook or not.
To elaborate a little on what Talonhawke and Kyrt-ryder said, there is no such thing as "the default martial weapons list". If you have martial weapon proficiency then you are proficient in ALL martial weapons regardless of whether they appear in the Core Rulebook or not.
And BTW, proficiency in the katana is not EXOTIC WEAPON PROF in the katana. YOu still need to blow the feat to use it one handed. The samurai is just proficient with them, despite them not being on the default martial weapons list.
ANd the katana is an exotic one handed weapon, and thus is not a martial weapon. Yet they can wield it. But it doesn't give them exotic weapon prof with it.
Pretty sure that to use a katana one-handed you need to blow a feat, EXACTLY like the bastard sword it is the counterpart of.==Aelryinth
Like the bastard sword there is no such animal as " martial proficiency Katana". If you are proficient in its use you can use it one handed. If you are not, but can use all martial weapons, then like the bastard sword you can use it two handed.
The point being is that Katana is listed under the list of Exotic 1-Handed Weapons.
If you are proficient, you can use it as is designed to be used by proficient users (1H).
Anybody with ALL Martial Weapon Proficiencies can use it as a 2H Martial Weapon,
but if you are SPECIFICALLY proficient in Katana, you should be able to use it as 1H, as it is normally classified.
Classes don't have to call out that they are granting proficiency in Exotic Weapons, look at Classes that grant Whip.
...This is part of what I don't like about the Samurai/Ninja, that they are granting free Exotic Proficiencies like this (ESPECIALLY Ninja getting Katana proficiency like this), and am prone to house-rule remove these proficiences... Then again, I'm prone to not allow the 'Asian' weapon stats period and just use the Core weapon stats, e.g. Bastard Sword for Katana, and nobody gets 1-Handed Exotic Proficiency for free - Musashi was a unique swordsman pushing the bounds after all, even if it was possible most Samurai couldn't actually fight that way effectively... Wakizashi were for other uses, like killing yourself :-)
...This is part of what I don't like about the Samurai/Ninja, that they are granting free Exotic Proficiencies like this (ESPECIALLY Ninja getting Katana proficiency like this), and am prone to house-rule remove these proficiences... Then again, I'm prone to not allow the 'Asian' weapon stats period and just use the Core weapon stats, e.g. Bastard Sword for Katana, and nobody gets 1-Handed Exotic Proficiency for free - Musashi was a unique swordsman pushing the bounds after all, even if it was possible most Samurai couldn't actually fight that way effectively... Wakizashi were for other uses, like killing yourself :-)
There is much about those two archetypes that does not sit well with me. The weapons would be one of them. I plan to use Kirths weapon rules for my next game. A short sword is a short sword, a long blade is a long blade and so on. The name it has does not matter.
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I will concede the point, but not the spirit. At least I am not alone in disapproving the giving away of EWP. By the same logic, Cavaliars should get EWP falcata or Bastard sword or Curve Blade or Dwarven Waraxe. Eesh.
Taking EWP in katana should be a choice of the samurai's style, not a default.
==+Aelryinth
Ok those that don't like the Katana fee EWP see it like this:
By default the Katana is a martial 2-handed weapon and everyone that gets "all martial weapons" can use it that way.
If you want to use it one-handed you need the EWP for it, which some classes gain automatically. It's a perk of the class, just like "elves treat all weapons with elven in it as martial".
Yes, I guess theoretically you could take Martial Weapon Proficiency (Katana) if you don't get "all martial weapons" already, but why the heck would you, if you can take EWP for the same price, so it was never included as a choice, because it would be a silly choice.
For those in the on free EWP camp how do you feel about Dwarves who start with 3 free EWP if they gain all martial prof with their class?
For those in the on free EWP camp how do you feel about Dwarves who start with 3 free EWP if they gain all martial prof with their class?
They probably banned dwarves long ago :)
For those in the on free EWP camp how do you feel about Dwarves who start with 3 free EWP if they gain all martial prof with their class?They probably banned dwarves long ago :)
Well no, but I do hate halflings and my homebrew has no small races and dwarvs don't get the axe( they do not use axes) and elves don't get the longswords or longbows. Ya know if that makes you feel better.
@TH> I don't see that as equivalent here, Samurai is a Cavalier reskin, who don't get any exotic proficiencies, and Samurai aren't giving anything up to gain these. Same thing for Ninjas. If Cavaliers got some Exotic Proficiency, and Samurai just changed what it was (to Katana) I wouldn't care (besides the fact that I just prefer to use Bastasrd Sword or Longsword or Scimatar stats anyways).
On the other hand, I AM empathetic to the view re Dwarves (and other races), and find it appropriate and undisruptive if Humans and Half-Elves had a similar option... Bastard Sword seems an appropriate generic one, possibly modifiable by culture. But the racial weapons are usually not actually the most optimized exotic weapons out there to begin with, and many Dwarves use other weapons anyways...
I just think Samurai and Ninja class design is flawed in that aspect compared to their base class.
If you were armed with a katana and fighting from horseback, then you were probably wielding it one handed. But that's a rarity, most mounted combat involved archery. They still have yabusame tournaments.
...and EVERYBODY proficient in all martial weapons can use a Katana just great with 2 hands, like they were usually used in swordsmanship. Rogues aren't normally, but Ninjas get full Exotic Proficiency in Katanas. I guess since Paizo decided their old approach of reskinning Bastard Swords as Katanas was so horribly deficient in the brave new world of gee-whiz new, even more mix-maxable stats for Asian-esque weapons and armor, they needed new stats for the Katana as well, but of course using the exact same dual Martial/Exotic 2H/1H Bastard Sword rules.
*blink*
@TH> I don't see that as equivalent here, Samurai is a Cavalier reskin, who don't get any exotic proficiencies, and Samurai aren't giving anything up to gain these. Same thing for Ninjas. If Cavaliers got some Exotic Proficiency, and Samurai just changed what it was (to Katana) I wouldn't care (besides the fact that I just prefer to use Bastasrd Sword or Longsword or Scimatar stats anyways).
I don't follow your argument. The Samurai loses tactician, charge, mounted archery, etc. He gains resolve, extra proficiencies, honorable stand, etc. Of particular note he gains weapon expertise, which builds on those extra proficiencies. How can you claim that because the Cavalier doesn't have those proficiencies the Samurai shouldn't either, but accept that the Samurai gains resolve and so forth which the Cavalier lacks? Are you saying that the extra weapon proficiencies tip the scale into unreasonableness? If so why them and not resolve or expertise or any other ability, and what evidence do you have that the Samurai is significantly unbalanced relative to the Cavalier thanks to those proficiencies?
Ninja? Wakazashi sure, Katana? You could house rule it out for them.
Why? For TWF ninjas the katana is a stupid choice anyway. a) can't be finessed and b) you'd need all the weapon focus etc feats twice. So they'll just use 2 wakizashis anyway.
And ninjas that use a single katana two-handed aren't that uncommon either in hollywood history. (let's face it, those classes are more shaped after western culture sees them than how they actually have been)
Hmmm, using a katana one-handed, sans the EWP, is not prohibited, just penalized.
The Rokughan game I played in was modified to reflect early warfare (lots of running hither and thither) and we were at hideous penalties trying to hit each other as the GM refused to allow proper two handed attacks without certain feats. As a Ratling, I was forbidden Katana and had to fight with Wakisashi, but I remember the Lion Clan sucking at the running fight.
I don't think its been added to the thread yet: 'A Katana can cut a Tank in half! It's true! I saw it on the internet!'
It is the default, it's the iconic item that defines a samurai, just as preparing and casting spells defines a wizard. It was so iconic, that in historical Japan, if you were holding a katana and were not of the samurai caste, any samurai would be within his rights to cut you down where you stood.I will concede the point, but not the spirit. At least I am not alone in disapproving the giving away of EWP. By the same logic, Cavaliars should get EWP falcata or Bastard sword or Curve Blade or Dwarven Waraxe. Eesh.
Taking EWP in katana should be a choice of the samurai's style, not a default.
==+Aelryinth
Uh, what?
EWP. Wielding a katana as a fighting instrument in one hand has nothing to do with cultural bias. Katanas are traditionally used two handed. It is not at all cultural for EWP to be endemic to all samurai...very few of them had the ability, and for good reason.
We're talking about class equality, not Race Equality. I am indeed annoyed that humans don't have any racial/cultural weapons, but it's a different argument. And don't argue that the katana is a cultural weapon for humans...elven samurai get the same benefit. It's a class perk, not racial, even though 'samurai' is a human derivation, the same way 'cavaliar' is.
From a class equality standpoint, handing out EWP's is handing out free feats, and furthermore, it doesn't fit the class. Let them make the choice to use it one-handed. IT's a bastard sword equiv, and should be treated like it.
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You found Lion CLan sucking at a running fight? Someone wasn't taking enough Way of the LIon feats! :) Nobody in OA brought the damage as reliably as Lions do! That stacking +2 to hit gets real nice when you've got 4 of them...Power attack +16 dmg for free and all!
==Aelryinth
I don't think its been added to the thread yet: 'A Katana can cut a Tank in half! It's true! I saw it on the internet!'
No, One I have had someone tell me was " A katana can punch though plate mail with ease. I saw it on deadlist warrior" Then when I pointed out it really couldn't I got hit with " Why don't you just admit you hate anything Asian."....sigh
We're talking about class equality, not Race Equality.
Being allowed to use what is effectively a scimitar which deals one higher average damage makes a Samurai superior to a Cavalier? That's the smallest change between the two classes, and it's a pretty weak ability (EWP katana certainly wouldn't be worth spending a feat on except for flavour).
Would you be complaining if instead of bonus EWP the Samurai had gotten a first level class ability such as "Scimitar Master: When wielding a scimitar the Samurai gains a +1 bonus to damage"?
Wow!!! they gain a free EWP feat? Generally one of the crappiest feats you can take? The horror, the horror! Now who can save us? Think of the little children!
No. The katana was almost never used two handed. Musashi was unique in that he actually fought with two blades. It's what made him famous.I'm sure that fighting (and surviving) a crap ton of duels helped as well. :) And there was that little piece of authorship as well.
One thing leads to the other. :)
As for EWP being a crap feat..I'm totally cool with giving all human fighters, paladins and barbarians EWP bastard sword from an equality standpoint. Be just like 1E! :) No?
If not, then no. The scimitar argument falls flat...I could make the same claim to fighters gaining auto +1 dmg with longswords. Shock! Horror! Oh, wait, they don't get it unless they spend a CLASS ABILITY to up their sword damage. Gotcha.
Samurai need to spend that option, not get it handed to them.
===Aelyrinth
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Don't you know? The katana is a death star in a sword form, it should take two feats just to be able to hold on to one. A class that allows such ease of use with such a weapon is so broken that it compares to star wars d20 jedi. The ability to wield the deity of blades allows one to become death incarnate. The use of a katana should a feature of a prestige class only.
Yeah, I know, but this is what I hear.
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Samurai are proficient with all simple and martial weapons,...
Samurai can use the katana with two hands.
.. plus the katana, naginata, and wakizashi.
First: Martial weapons (includes the katana as 2HW) plus the katana .. there must be something special with the katana, nagi and waki or why are there additional informations?
Second: The wakizashi is an exotic one handed weapon and you need EWP to use it.Compared with the fighter and bastard sword
A fighter is proficient with all simple and martial weapons and with all armor (heavy, light, and medium) and shields (including tower shields).
No additional informations, no special inclusion etc.
Fighters must learn EWP Bastard sword to use it one handed but they can do it very easily because they get a huge amount of feats ..
samurai get EWP katana, nagi and waki for free as part of their class.
I use my kitana to split atoms. While blindfolded.
As for EWP being a crap feat..I'm totally cool with giving all human fighters, paladins and barbarians EWP bastard sword from an equality standpoint.
These sorts of things are what the human bonus feat was designed to take care of.
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You see, my extensive knowledge of this mythical weapon well describes the immense phallic sense of superiority that I hold over all that would dream to defy it's god-like existence amongst men. I bear this without fear of dethronement, for it is the enemies of it astute awesomeness that reveal themselves as racist, for though no true blood ties me, I am of the purest blood, and thus infallible. I, amongst the gods that birthed such weapons of mass destruction, should be of the few who dare speak of it, and even then, of the even fewer who speak the name of the world crusher, the god slayer, the heavens piercer, the... katana.