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Dragons, as we all know, have a lot of wealth at their disposal. Can they not use it to equip themselves? Whenever a dm runs a dragon, should it be equipped with stat boosting items and cloaks of resistance ETC, or can Dragons not use such things?
I equipped a Dragon for one of my encounters with a small portion of its loot, and found that its CR had jumped enormously. I like my gaming world to be logically consistent, so if they can use these items they will in my world.
Wishing for inherent bonuses at higher ages presents the same problem. Should all the cr ~20 dragons have plus 5 str, con and cha?
I guess my question is what items can dragons use, and when you run them do they utilize said items?
Try an item that most players won't use (except your monk): an amulet of mighty fists. Bonuses on attack and damage rolls with natural weapons. You don't make it harder to hit, or give it more hit points, but while the dragon is up, it is hitting easier and causing more damage across the board. To make it really interesting give it a +1 Unholy Shocking Burst AoMF (if the party is good aligned).
Unless you have a monk, the party probably can't use it (maybe a paladin's mount or ranger/druid animal companion or a sorcerer/wizard familiar, but is the party gonna let an animal have a 125,000 gp item?), and so will have to sell it off for half value.
Master Arminas
One more thought: I have always believed that at least 75% of a dragon's hoard should be coins, jewels, works of art, statuary, etc., etc. These big guys aren't like greedy players, they like all forms of wealth; magic items they can use are just icing on the cake.
MA
For all intelligent creatures with treasure, I equip them according to their preferences. My Dragons usually have some magical items, but I also make sure to leave them a good stack of coins and gems to sleep on back in their lair.
I don't increase a creature's CR unless I equip them with more treasure than they should have.
If a creature has gained inherent bonuses to multiple ability scores, either through wish or the relevant books, I'll increase CR by 1.
This is fine way to run the encounter without any problems, but my question is more of "Why doesn't the dragon use better items?" He could use 1/4 of his wealth (hell even 1/10) and boost his saves and damage enormously. Unless there's a reason they can't do it, I feel like they will, as I try to play a consistent and logical world.
The question is, are you a gamist, simulationist, or narrativist.
If you're a simulationist, the answer is, ABSOLUTELY YES---anything as smart as a dragonw ould equip whatever he had that could be useful in his treasure and he'd probably skew his treasure towards useful stuff also (perhaps shopping at ye old magick market in human form or through intermediates). Simulationists don't give a damn about CR in general, their party will go up against said dragon if and only if they think they can take him.
This is essentially the conclusion I came to. Unless I invent a reason Dragons lack many slots due to their inherently magically powerful nature.
Personally I see it as an ego thing -- you're a freaking dragon, do you want to be the one seen as if you were actually afraid of those adventurers?
However I usually have a ring, amulet or crown on dragons -- those are decorations and dragons love decorations... even better if they just happen to have some side uses. If the dragon is actually expecting trouble and has the time he'll get his barding on too. I'm fairly fond of them having wands for the convenience (much like have a tv remote -- you don't need it but my how much nicer it is to have one).
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Ah, but you have to think like a dragon. On the subject of hoards, dragons are not just obsessive, they are completely pathological. I mean, steal one copper from a red, and you have got an enemy for life: and your children, and their children, and so-on-and-so-forth.
Dragon's don't want to spend their hoards. The want to savor them, and keep them safe, and always, always increase them. If the dragon has items in the hoard that can aid him, he will use them. But he will never, ever send part of his hoard away to purchase an item. If he really, really wants something that badly, an evil or chaotic dragon is more likely to simply land in the city in the dead of night, knock down a few blocks, scoop up the items and leave.
Even good dragons are notoriously spendthrift with their hoards, and really dislike seeing it shrink (even for a couple of days).
Just some thoughts.
Master Arminas
Ah, but you have to think like a dragon. On the subject of hoards, dragons are not just obsessive, they are completely pathological. I mean, steal one copper from a red, and you have got an enemy for life: and your children, and their children, and so-on-and-so-forth.
Dragon's don't want to spend their hoards. The want to savor them, and keep them safe, and always, always increase them. If the dragon has items in the hoard that can aid him, he will use them. But the will never, ever send part of his hoard away to purchase an item. If he really, really wants something that badly, an evil or chaotic dragon is more likely to simply land in the city in the dead of night, knock down a few blocks, scoop up the items and leave.
Even good dragons are notoriously spendthrift with their hoards, and really dislike seeing it shrink (even for a couple of days).
Just some thoughts.
Master Arminas
Generally true I suppose, especially for a CE, but do you think a noble gold facing down a lich to protect countless innocents would avoid spending 20k gold out of his 400k+?
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You know I'm not seeing anything under the treasure heading or rewards section that says the creatures won't use what they have.
Just a side note -- one GM to another:
If the treasure I'm planning to give out has consumable components I'll let the creature use them... and never mark the usage off. Yeah the wand might have only 25 charges in it but it will have the same 25 charges if it got used 10 times in the fight as it would if it didn't get used at all in the fight.
The 25 charges are part of the 'treasure' value I'm giving to the players. Since the players have no means of knowing just how many charges were there at the start of the fight they have no means of knowing how many should be left -- just like they generally won't have any clue just how many potions of cure light wounds or scrolls of mage armor the guy might have had before they met him.
Generally true I suppose, especially for a CE, but do you think a noble gold facing down a lich to protect countless innocents would avoid spending 20k gold out of his 400k+?
He might cry about it and secretly hope the innocents will see fit to give he a reward for his 'sacrifice' -- I generally treat dragons the same as most people view the top 1% of income earners in America -- that money is they HP as far as they are concerned and if they bleed for you then you should respect that and reward them with more money of course.
(Please note this is a 'perception' not a reality -- I'm not trying to make honest claims of motives or the like, just pointing out a how I act with dragons as a GM)
Yes. If the gold thinks he can take the lich without spending that money. However, that same gold is likely to inform a local order of paladins about the liches plan, and have them take care of the problem--which doesn't risk its own hide or deplete its hoard. Heck, he might even agree to use his alternate form to provide backup spell support--in return for 50% of the treasure found. Just because a gold dragon is lawful good doesn't mean he isn't a dragon first and foremost.
Master Arminas
You know I'm not seeing anything under the treasure heading or rewards section that says the creatures won't use what they have.
Exactly.
IMO, the default CR for a creature already includes its treasure-value. While some monsters may keep all of their treasure lying forgotten in their lairs, other monsters (particularly intelligent monsters) will use parts of their treasure.
For me, individual dragons might part with a portion of their hoard for a useful piece of gear, if it was extremely critical to their current plans. Then again, I often run dragons as adventurer patrons, giving the location of an un-plundered ruin in exchange for a specific item from it, the rest is fair game. So it is far more likely the dragon exchanges an intangible like knowledge for the item, or simply goes and procures the item on its own, with a potential level of violence appropriate to the dragon's nature and the nature of the item's current owner.
The way I see it, dragons don't view their money as money, they view it as a possession. Humans view money as a means to acquire a possession, or as a means to acquire more money, and thus more possessions. But a dragon just sees the money itself as the possession.
Would you trade a significant portion of your mini collection for a specific mini that would be useful in your next session? Or would you rather acquire it with an alternate method (human: purchase. dragon: steal or persuade)? Or simply make do without the mini?
That and draconic arrogance. If I were a biological Abrahms tank with unlimited ammo that could fly, I would be mortified at the thought a human might challenge me so much I need to put human defenses upon myself. Add in the rest of a host of neat tricks like stealth, illusion, mind control, terrain reshaping, burrow or swim speeds, and lets not forget better spellcasting the bigger you are, and there really is no reason to even consider using paltry magic items, unless one happens to fall into your lap thanks to a foolish adventurer.
But to consider actually parting with a portion of your hoard, the physical sum of your life's deeds, your comfort blanket, your master bedroom, your hobby, your life's work? To buy a trinket that might give you an edge, that carries with it the implication that you NEED an edge?
That would be the most loathsome of blasphemies.
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I agree that the vast majority of Dragons wouldn't dream of actually going out to purchase an item unless it was essential to their plans.
But, most Dragons already have a number of magic items as part of their hoards. Those items are fair game.
The way I usually do it (when it comes to Dragons), is to pre-generate their hoard randomly (apart from items that may be there for story reasons, such as "Dragonslayer", the mighty sword of Elvira the Brave). Any useful items among those the Dragon could use, it will use.
Dragons, as we all know, have a lot of wealth at their disposal. Can they not use it to equip themselves? Whenever a dm runs a dragon, should it be equipped with stat boosting items and cloaks of resistance ETC, or can Dragons not use such things?
I equipped a Dragon for one of my encounters with a small portion of its loot, and found that its CR had jumped enormously. I like my gaming world to be logically consistent, so if they can use these items they will in my world.
Wishing for inherent bonuses at higher ages presents the same problem. Should all the cr ~20 dragons have plus 5 str, con and cha?
I guess my question is what items can dragons use, and when you run them do they utilize said items?
The game assumes no gear, but if your player are really optimized it might be neccesary.
It may or may not make sense to increase the CR of the monster also depending on your group when you do so.
Roll the treasure up randomly and see what the dragon can use. They probably have a fair pile of usable stuff from the last group of adventures to wander through.
If there is a thing that would keep a dragon from using equipment, it would be it's pride. Most of these things are manmade crutches for weaklings afterall.
Aside from that - Master Arminas... ever happened to visit Mordel's Bar & Grill?
My players tend to be optimized so must enemies have loot they can use. This was some what easiere in 3.5 with the MIC. In Pathfinder - well not so many items, but still I buff my encounters with their loot.
Dragons are somewhat diffent - the hoard treasure, copper mostly (or is that just my experiance)- and that's part of what makes them dragons. But I would still give them a ring of pro +X and what ever would seem usefull (without using all their tresure - the dragon need it's hoard!)
Besides - adventures go after dragons - sometimes dragons makes TPK - so and succesfull dragon would have defeaded an adventure party or two - thus gaining their loot - and magic items. Some would be usefull.
And I will note that, despite unfounded assumptions by some posters that dragons were not intended to use their hoards, the dragon creature type is one of only two (the other being fey) that gives Use Magic Device as a class skill...
It is not unfounded at all. Monster were intended to be used straight out of the book without a GM having to do anything to them. This also assumes 15 point buy PC's with nonoptomized characters also though. Many monsters have things as fluff in the book so the presence of UMD does not mean use of magic items.
As proof of this fluff you can look through the book to see that changing feats out could make them better monsters(fight wise), but a 15 pb, nonoptomized group would probably get its butt kicked.
Dropping the vital strike chain, and giving a monsters improved initiative, iron will, and another feat is a good example.
If there is a thing that would keep a dragon from using equipment, it would be it's pride. Most of these things are manmade crutches for weaklings afterall.
Aside from that - Master Arminas... ever happened to visit Mordel's Bar & Grill?
Yep, and Canonfire, and Our BattleTech, and Solaris VII . . . well, and a lots of others.
Master Arminas
If there is a thing that would keep a dragon from using equipment, it would be it's pride. Most of these things are manmade crutches for weaklings afterall.
Aside from that - Master Arminas... ever happened to visit Mordel's Bar & Grill?
Yep, and Canonfire, and Our BattleTech, and Solaris VII . . . well, and a lots of others.
Master Arminas
Yep, I knew I know you from somewhere, and that our common ned to equip the worst beast in the game with more heavy steel must stem from there as well :D
How goes your quest for Taurian 'Mech rework?
If you need a justification for why a dragon doesn't use a lot of the items in her horde; you could say that there's a thresh-hold beyond which the resizing and reshaping of magical items to their wearer can't pass. Boots don't work for creatures with monstery, taloned feet; a gargantuan or even huge dragon is simply too large and strangely shaped to fit a neck-slot item around her neck and has to start leaving her favorite cape at home once she grows to the new category.
That said... I do like the idea of a dragon using some of her magical items because it's unexpected and clever and dragons are often quite clever.
The dragon can have lackeys to tailor things to his size and shape. He has wealth and power to cow some good craftsmen to catter to his needs.
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The dragon can have lackeys to tailor things to his size and shape. He has wealth and power to cow some good craftsmen to catter to his needs.
Depending on the dragon, he might even craft them himself!
Or, if he's not into that sort of drudgery, scry on some local magical artisans and make simulacra of them and set them to work, pumping out low level stuff.
Gauntlets of dexterity, a cloak of resistance, potions of resist or protection from (energy type I have a vulnerability to), potions of lesser restoration and restoration (for those annoying people who plan on trying to attack your low Dex score). It's all good.
If there is a thing that would keep a dragon from using equipment, it would be it's pride. Most of these things are manmade crutches for weaklings afterall.
Aside from that - Master Arminas... ever happened to visit Mordel's Bar & Grill?
Yep, and Canonfire, and Our BattleTech, and Solaris VII . . . well, and a lots of others.
Master Arminas
Yep, I knew I know you from somewhere, and that our common ned to equip the worst beast in the game with more heavy steel must stem from there as well :D
How goes your quest for Taurian 'Mech rework?
Done. link. Or, at least as done as it is going to get, lol.
Master Arminas
(Unrelated side note - anybody recall that beautiful picture from the CRB where a dragon is laying waste to an elven city, and some sadistic GM has equipped it with a Gargantuan battle axe? Now that'll wilt your PCs' whiskers!)
What's a CRB?
What's a CRB?
(Unrelated side note - anybody recall that beautiful picture from the CRB where a dragon is laying waste to an elven city, and some sadistic GM has equipped it with a Gargantuan battle axe? Now that'll wilt your PCs' whiskers!)
Core Rule Book
But that thing isn't Dragon. That's nascent demon lord called Treerazer (more info in Elves of Golarion, Book of the Damned 2 and Adventure Path 3 (I think it was in 4th or 5th part))
Dragons, as we all know, have a lot of wealth at their disposal. Can they not use it to equip themselves? Whenever a dm runs a dragon, should it be equipped with stat boosting items and cloaks of resistance ETC, or can Dragons not use such things?
It can be. Most dragons cast spells as sorcerers, have maxed ranks in use magic device, have fine manipulation with their hands, and are very intelligent. This is capped by the fact wondrous items change sizes to fit their wearer. This being what it is, yes dragons should use items.
I equipped a Dragon for one of my encounters with a small portion of its loot, and found that its CR had jumped enormously. I like my gaming world to be logically consistent, so if they can use these items they will in my world.
I'm curious as to what you did here. Dragons don't have more than triple standard wealth. I can't imagine it pushing their CR up in any reasonable way - especially since according to the game "PC Wealth" is only +1 CR.
Wishing for inherent bonuses at higher ages presents the same problem. Should all the cr ~20 dragons have plus 5 str, con and cha?
An add-hoc +1 CR would be appropriate if the effective value pushed them into PC-wealth levels (even if they can get the inherent modifiers for free they still have a value based on tomes). More than likely this would (because tomes are bloody expensive), so this would be similar to dropping the advanced template in terms of CR adjustment.
I guess my question is what items can dragons use, and when you run them do they utilize said items?
Yes. The treasure value for dragons is generally spread out on my dragons as usable gear that they have currently and could use (stuff like haversacks, bags of holding, and goodies like wands and such inside that; and such bags are useful for looting things to add to their horde).
A dragon's horde is another matter entirely. A dragon's horde is supposed to be riches beyond measure and you're probably not going to ever find a dragon carrying such things around with it on its person. Instead the horde would be an entire adventure (with the treasure values from the CR of the lair's defenses all feeding into the horde at the end).
RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32
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If you buy gear, I would have it avoid Big 6 items and go for utility and survivability. E.g. not bracers of armor or barding, but maybe a ring of energy resistance vs. its weakness. And not an amulet of mighty fists, but maybe a ring of freedom of movement.
I.e. dragons are already really tough for their CR when compared to comparable encounters (solo monsters). But there are annoying weaknesses to shore up and flavor to add.
Aww... just 4 more months plus a week and we'd have had a full 2 year necro. You had ONE JOB, Ashiel!
Weird. I just responded to a thread that was near the top of the general board when I checked it. How'd it end up at the top of the board like that? :P