| 5 people marked this as FAQ candidate. 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Situation: A character was at -3 Hit points and they had a Bleed effect from a Rogue that sneaked attacked them earlier. Another character casts Stabilize on them.
Stabilize spell description:
"Upon casting this spell, you target a living creature that has –1 or fewer hit points. That creature is automatically stabilized and does not lose any further hit points. If the creature later takes damage, it continues dying normally."
Situation: A character was at -3 Hit points and they had a Bleed effect from a Rogue that sneaked attacked them earlier. Another character casts Stabilize on them.
Stabilize spell description:
"Upon casting this spell, you target a living creature that has –1 or fewer hit points. That creature is automatically stabilized and does not lose any further hit points. If the creature later takes damage, it continues dying normally."
Nope. Stabilize does not have any of the requisite effects to end a Bleed effect. While the target will be stabilized at time of casting, the Bleed effect will still continue eating them.
A Bleed effect can also be stopped by a DC 15 Heal check. Would the spell substitute for that since it doesn't actually heal?
The spell only stops the Dying condition, any bleed effects continue. The spell does not heal any HP damage and cannot be considered magical healing.
I'm not suggesting that it heals, but rather that the spell would be the equivalent of a DC 15 Heal check.
Here's what the rules say:
A creature that is taking bleed damage takes the listed amount of damage at the beginning of its turn. Bleeding can be stopped by a DC 15 Heal check or through the application of any spell that cures hit point damage (even if the bleed is ability damage).
The orison stabilize is not a DC 15 Heal check and does not cure hit point damage, so I would agree with other posters that it would not stop bleed damage. It only stops further damage due to the dying condition, nothing more.
I'm not suggesting that it heals, but rather that the spell would be the equivalent of a DC 15 Heal check.
The two are not the same not per RAW, a DC 15 heal check (First Aid) stablizes and stops bleed effects. While Stabilize only lists that it stabilizes the creature and prevents it from dying - no mention of bleed.
I suspect that RAI, Stabilize stops bleed damage. The only reason Stabilze exists is because Paizo did not want an at-will Cure Minor Wounds cantrip.
Interesting you think this because Cure Minor Wounds (1 point) would both stop dying and bleeding as it is direct healing. However, stabilize is very careful to leave out all mention of bleed. IMO, this was intentional.
I suspect that RAI, Stabilize stops bleed damage. The only reason Stabilze exists is because Paizo did not want an at-will Cure Minor Wounds cantrip.
+1
This is the intent. The spell needs errata. Until then I'd recommend houseruling it.
|
Per Jason (as of Feb, '09), Stabilize does NOT stop the bleed condition. I think it should and would houserule, at least as to hit point loss and the dying condition.
It is, in all places, in the discussion page for the Critical Hit Deck:
http://paizo.com/store/byCompany/p/paizoPublishingLLC/gameMastery/itemPacks /v5748btpy872f/discuss#tabs
_____________________________________
In the current rules, stabilize does not stop bleeding as it does not cure damage. This is something I will review.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
Bleed damage is weak enough without being countered by an orison. I'd say leave it at "no".
Looks like my group will be houseruling this to allow you to stop bleeding and dying once you are negative HP.
|
I suspect that RAI, Stabilize stops bleed damage. The only reason Stabilze exists is because Paizo did not want an at-will Cure Minor Wounds cantrip.Interesting you think this because Cure Minor Wounds (1 point) would both stop dying and bleeding as it is direct healing. However, stabilize is very careful to leave out all mention of bleed. IMO, this was intentional.
Almost certainly, it is not intentional. As it was pointed out several times by the developers, bleed was a late addition to the game and not all of the Core rules were developed with it in mind.
Cure Minor Wounds was removed to remove the possibility of infinite healing. I doubt the developers where thinking about bleed at the time.RAW even a cleric channelling positive energy would not stop a bleeding effect, but it has been explained in some post by Devs as an oversight and that channelling would work against bleeding.
That said, by RAW Stabilize don't stop bleeding.
RAI? No Dev statement, so it depend on the GM decision.
(EDIT: Jason is arguing RAW, I think, in the above cited comment)
The effect of the Dying condition is relatively similar to the bleeding condition, so I would allow Stabilize to stop bleeding if after the cure the target respect all the rules of a disabled character (mostly, don't fight). If he want to fight he need some stronger magic or a few stitches (the haling check).
Diego, we disagree. You state it's an oversight, I think it's intentional. Why would they update First Aid to include bleeding and not Stabilize?
Dying is its own condition separate from Bleed. Dying does not impart Bleed.
IMO, this would be like having an effect which explicitly removes Sickened and only sicked to also remove Nauseated. Heck, they're similar right? Right, but they're not equivalent.
Bleed already gets the shaft enough: anything with fast healing/regeneration/heal skill/magical healing already beats it. Why pile on?
|
|
You can add that, even if it is not specified in the rules, undead and constructs are immune to it.
So, why pile on it?
a) because I don't see it as weak. Matter of taste.
b) because my interpretation seem more consistent to me. Stabilize can stop me to bleed to death from a normal wound, but not if someone has use ad ability that deal what? A bleeding wound.
c) I don't use hero points, so I prefer to give a simple way to avoid bleeding to death to my players.
d) "X is weak, so you should always interpret the rules in its favour" is not a good argument. If something is weak you should try to see why it is weak and change that, not say that any rule should be bended in its favour.
Maybe we can better gauge the effectiveness of the Stabilize orison in the context of its opposite, the Bleed orison.
Bleed (the orison) doesn't make you bleed. Not in the usual sense. You must be under 0 hit points for Bleed (the orison) to work.
- If you were stabilized, you are not anymore and start losing 1 hit point per round
- If you weren't stabilized, you lose 1 more hit point and that's all the orison will do.
- You can be stabilized normally.
Now, Stabilize looks like the opposite orison. Allowing it to neutralize normal bleeding (the one a critical hit or a rogue with the right feats would cause) seems overpowering in comparison: it's not limited to a kind of bleeding happening only under 0 hps, and remember you can be dying AND bleeding, just bleeding withour dying or just dying without bleeding. Thus they are different conditions who should be addressed separately. Also, any 1st level cleric or druid would be able to stop at will an ability earned at much higher levels by rogues or randomly achieved by means of critical hits.
If Stabilize could end Bleed then it would be an OP cantrip in my opinion. 0th level spells are not intended to be able to do anything major.
Besides, Bleed doesn't impart the Bleed condition, so why should Stabilize stop the Bleed condition? Especially when it says it only works on -1 hp creatures.
|
If Stabilize could end Bleed then it would be an OP cantrip in my opinion. 0th level spells are not intended to be able to do anything major.
Besides, Bleed doesn't impart the Bleed condition, so why should Stabilize stop the Bleed condition? Especially when it says it only works on -1 hp creatures.
Erroneous conclusions.
Many cantrips, when used in the correct circumstances, are quite powerful.
I will point to just two of them, create water and guidance, as being system breakers, when applied correctly.
Stabilize and bleed effects are probably just a result of the law of unintended consequences. There are a lot of rules items that, due to combining two books into one, without spending the extra year or two needed to fully combine the references to the same things in different areas, causes things like many people not knowing that you cannot make potions of spells which have a target of personal.
Issue: Cantrips and orisons are no longer expended when cast.
Problem: Cure minor wounds, originally a 0 level spell, later turned into an orison when 0 level spells were renamed, heals 1 point of damage. As an orison, it can be used infinite times, so, as long as the party has time between encounters, they can start every encounter at maximum hit points without any expenditure of party resources.
Resolution: Remove healing effect, turn it into something that just stops the target form bleeding out, rename it stabilize.
Unintended consequence: By RAW, stabilize can no longer halt bleed effects, even though it stops bleeding.
Which, to me, says stupid things. "Hi. I stabilize George, meaning he stops bleeding out, but he remains bleeding due to bleed effects, which stabilize cannot do anything about."
Stopping bleeding doesn't stop Bleed? Let me make a Will save, someone must have cast hideous laughter on me.