Counter-strategy to excessive spring attacks


Advice


I'm building a nemesis-type NPC for a PC in a game I'm going to run. I know, from experience with the player, that the character I want to counter/challenge is going to be using spring attack at later levels. Probably a lot.

Both the PC and the nemesis NPC are melee fighter-types; the PC is a 2H fighter/barbarian, and the nemesis is a sword/shield ranger. What are some strategies I should keep in mind for this NPC? Readying actions to hit the PC when they 'spring?' Are there any feats I should focus on taking with the nemesis character?

Thanks!

Grand Lodge

Anetra wrote:

I'm building a nemesis-type NPC for a PC in a game I'm going to run. I know, from experience with the player, that the character I want to counter/challenge is going to be using spring attack at later levels. Probably a lot.

Both the PC and the nemesis NPC are melee fighter-types; the PC is a 2H fighter/barbarian, and the nemesis is a sword/shield ranger. What are some strategies I should keep in mind for this NPC? Readying actions to hit the PC when they 'spring?' Are there any feats I should focus on taking with the nemesis character?

Thanks!

Isnt there a feat that when you hit with an AoO stops further movement?


Helaman wrote:
Isnt there a feat that when you hit with an AoO stops further movement?

Oh! Is there? That would be wonderful, I will go look for it.


Yep, Stand Still could do it. If PC is unlikely to have flight, tripping is probably better though, will need the bonuses from improved and greater to have a chance to successfully cmb through rage.


Archer/Gunslinger Monk-

Make sure the Monk is faster than the PC, with shot on the run. Every time the PC moves, run away and shoot him. If he tries to run away, follow him and shoot him.

Load him up with movement hampering gear (tanglefoot bag, net, wand of Slow and UMD, ect) for added fun.


Cult of Vorg wrote:
Yep, Stand Still could do it. If PC is unlikely to have flight, tripping is probably better though, will need the bonuses from improved and greater to have a chance to successfully cmb through rage.

Unfortunately, I don't think Stand Still will actually do it, it specifies that the enemy has to provoke an AoO for moving, which spring attack does not do.

Quote:

Stand Still

When a foe provokes an attack of opportunity due to moving through your adjacent squares, you can make a combat maneuver check as your attack of opportunity. If successful, the enemy cannot move for the rest of his turn. An enemy can still take the rest of his action, but cannot move. This feat also applies to any creature that attempts to move from a square that is adjacent to you if such movement provokes an attack of opportunity.
Quote:

Spring Attack

As a full-round action, you can move up to your speed and make a single melee attack without provoking any attacks of opportunity from the target of your attack. You can move both before and after the attack, but you must move at least 10 feet before the attack and the total distance that you move cannot be greater than your speed. You cannot use this ability to attack a foe that is adjacent to you at the start of your turn.


There is a feat for stopping folks called "stand still", but spring attack doesn't allow AoOs, so that won't work. I would suggest the ranger use a flail, and grab all of the trip feats. Ready an action to trip when he runs past... once he is on the ground he is hosed. Getting up takes a move action and provokes an AoO. You cannot 'trip lock', but the AoO comes while he is still on the ground so you atk with a +4, and he either moves out of threatened range after that (provoke another AoE) or stays there and lets the ranger full attack on his next turn, which could include another trip.

EDIT: ninja'd ><

option 2, invisible exploding spikes from stronghold builder? :P


I really like the idea of readying an action to trip. I was already planning to give the NPC the Combat Expertise feat, so adding the trip feats on will be easy.


Readying to trip would do it.

Do note that an equivalent level fighter that just readies a normal attack against a spring-attacker will come out on top. The spring-attacker runs forward, attacks and is attacked, then runs back.

Neither gets a full-attack but the fighter that spent feats on things other than dodge, mobility and spring-attack can just do more damage, hit better and/or have better AC and other abilities.

Spring attack is bad if you're just trading single attacks.


Large polearm user: With a movement rate of 30 and a requirement to start out with 10' of movement before attacking the spring attacker will end his turn in reach.

Large Whip Master: Now making full attacks with 30' reach for dealing with those obnoxious spring attacking barbarians and travel domain clerics.

Point Blank Master archer: Who cares if the enemy winds up standing next to me?

Druid: Wildshape into something with one big primary natural attack that has at least as much movement as the enemy. Vital Strike. That's without what White Fang or Hobbes will do to the poor guy with grab or pounce.

Actually, any vital strike build is going to chew up a spring attacker pretty badly. He's getting a single normal attack, the vital striker gets a boosted standard action attack. Trip builds are probably similarly devastating.


Umbral Reaver wrote:

Readying to trip would do it.

Do note that an equivalent level fighter that just readies a normal attack against a spring-attacker will come out on top. The spring-attacker runs forward, attacks and is attacked, then runs back.

Neither gets a full-attack but the fighter that spent feats on things other than dodge, mobility and spring-attack can just do more damage, hit better and/or have better AC and other abilities.

Spring attack is bad if you're just trading single attacks.

There will be some situations in which spring attack is a good idea, and some ideas in which it isn't. When it comes to D&D combat this player (also my roomie!) is a lot better at it than me, though, which can be a bit intimidating when it comes to running a game.

I have a pretty good idea of how this character will get built. The spring attack tree is probably not going to appear until around 7th or 10th level. However, the character will be more or less optimized for damage.


Atarlost wrote:
Large polearm user: With a movement rate of 30 and a requirement to start out with 10' of movement before attacking the spring attacker will end his turn in reach.

Ah, yeah. The movement thing. The PC is going to have a level of barbarian, so another 10ft of movement, and will be unlikely to take the feats until a pair of Boots of Striding and Springing have been secured, so he'll have a pretty reliable 40' movement.

Thanks for all the ideas, though! I definitely need to build more than one NPC that will pose a fun challenge.


If you allow psionics then a psychic warrior can catch him off guard. They appear to not have a weapon. Then they manifest Claws of the Beast as a swift action and then start dealing a lot of damage. At the levels you mentioned the claws can be dealing between 2d6 to 3d6 a piece. Combine that with Vital Strike for extra fun. And if he's had a turn to get ready he can manifest Claws of the Vampire and gain half of the damage the base claws do (so not adding strength mod, enhancements, ect.) back as health. God help your friend if the psychic warrior has had a couple turns to really get going. I actually plan on using a build like this against my players soon, but I doubt it'll catch them off guard. They're the most paranoid bunch I've ever met.


Anetra wrote:
Atarlost wrote:
Large polearm user: With a movement rate of 30 and a requirement to start out with 10' of movement before attacking the spring attacker will end his turn in reach.

Ah, yeah. The movement thing. The PC is going to have a level of barbarian, so another 10ft of movement, and will be unlikely to take the feats until a pair of Boots of Striding and Springing have been secured, so he'll have a pretty reliable 40' movement.

Thanks for all the ideas, though! I definitely need to build more than one NPC that will pose a fun challenge.

Yeah, so I think people are looking at this from the wrong direction. You don't try to outfight or hit the THF spring attacking barbarian. You outsmart him and a ranger has a bunch of fun options to frustrate this guy.

My first thought was to go to the trapper ranger archetype. Scattering a battlefield with traps is great against a highly mobile opponent. Let your ranger switch hit with thrown weapons and quick draw so he can always attack whether the barbarian is near or far. The PC will have to try and figure out where the traps are placed, and if this is past 10th level the ranger could attach traps to his thrown weapons to bombard the PC in that way. Ice traps would be great for slowing the PC down and any other trap would generally make the barbarian wary of wanting to jump around against this ranger.

Speaking of the trapper brings up the skirmisher in my mind too whose archetype has entangling strikes and hobbling strikes to slow down the barbarian. I am generally opposed to the idea of fighting a raging barbarian with trip attacks as he will have a ridiculous CMD and these methods get around this. His CMD is also why I would avoid disarm though that is the single best way to make him cry.

Oh yeah, you don't even need to go to archetypes for some simple solutions. Just a lot of ranger spells could provide great complications. Spike growth, lockjaw on an animal companion, and summon monster could all be used to plant this guy in a specific location.
A further option could be to play this game on the long burn. This strategy actually mixes well with some of the others, but, basically, a spring attacker wants a long battle with quick short exchanges where the THF with furious focus and power attack maximizes the damage and to hit of one attack over his opponent round after round. The ranger could counter with spells like brow gnasher which adds an increasingly negative modifier as combat continues. This brings in bleed damage which is a good option, so bloody claws spell for animal companions or feats which give bleed effects are good options (there is a fragile weapon feat which is pretty cheap early on). Poison is also an excellent option to kind of counter the one attack a round system as the ranger gets all the per round effects on his side forcing the spring attacker to drop his slower attack style. Poison has some issues going up against the barbarians high fort saves, but that is more a cost versus level analysis (a stiffer poison at a lower level might make for a more memorable encounter, but higher levels it's hard for any poison to be effective). I like how this works with the idea of a sword and board ranger who is determined to outlast the barbarian, waiting for his rage to wear down, and enduring/defending until his opponent is worn to nothing.

Hope you can use some of these ideas.


I thought of another fun build to mess with your friend. Have the ranger use two gloves of storing. In one glove he has a 2h sword. In the other a bow. Start combat with the bow. When your friend moves into melee thinking that the ranger is an archer build the bow goes into the glove and out comes the 2h sword. It's not fancy and will shut down the spring attack. And if he moves away to start spring attacking then out comes the bow again. Or the ranger can just follow him on his turn. Also don't forget to choose favored enemy whatever race your friend is. Favored enemy now applies to hit and damage now too. Use whatever feats you feel like but I'd go with a mix of ranged and melee. Or just use Vital Strike. Yeah. It's just that awesome. And can be used with ranged weapons as well.


!!

I love the idea of using traps, that's awesome! I'm really excited for that. This player is always really focused on having ALL OF THE MOBILITY and being able to go anywhere he wants on the battlefield, so the idea of having his ability to cover so much terrain at a time possibly working against him is great.

Gunsmith Paladin wrote:
Have the ranger use two gloves of storing.

(Un?)Fortunately, you can only use one glove of storing at a time.


Heh. Thought of something else for even more fun. Use the magic items Horn of Antagonism and Horn of the Huntmaster. Horn of Antagonism dazes the target and they receive a penalty on the save equal to the favored enemy bonus of the ranger. Horn of the Hustmaster requires a bit more planning. Use a bunch of slightly lower level NPC minions as the rangers party. Have his form a companion bond with them. When he uses that horn they get his full favored enemy bonus for a full minute. Have them swarm the barbarian and set up flanking/trip/block escape routes with that huge bonus. There's all kinds of fun stuff you can do with proper planning and a bit of imagination.


Anetra wrote:

!!

(Un?)Fortunately, you can only use one glove of storing at a time.

Sorry. Totally didn't realize that. Back in 3.5 you could. There was some arguments that you couldn't, but there was tons of evidence that you could. The example NPCs in the various books used two on occasion. I didn't even think to check the Pathfinder version of it.


Gunsmith Paladin wrote:
Sorry. Totally didn't realize that. Back in 3.5 you could. There was some arguments that you couldn't, but there was tons of evidence that you could. The example NPCs in the various books used two on occasion. I didn't even think to check the Pathfinder version of it.

Haha, it's cool. Somehow I didn't realize until yesterday that Pathfinder removed the BAB 1 prereq on Weapon Finesse e__e


Just going to take one more second to point out again the option of switch hitting with thrown weapons and quick draw. This is due to the following benefits:

  • You can keep your shield up at all times
  • Spring attacking keeps your opponent in the closest range for most thrown weapons
  • You can full attack when the spring attacker can't
  • You can throw and move to negotiate terrain or push past his spring attack limits.
  • Switching to a main weapon for TWF rotation is just as easy if the spring attacker decides to fully engage.
  • Alchemical items are thrown weapons.
  • Requires one feat. You can improve with more, but it isn't necessary.

    Yeah that about sums it up. I just think you should consider it.


  • Points:
    1. Spring Attack is one PC option, of many. The Barbarian is likely just as happy in Full Attack mode, so addressing Spring Attack is only step one. Step 2 is having an NPC be able to survive/outdo a Full Attack from a Barbarian.
    2. Spring Attack cannot begin next to the target. (Change from 3.x.)
    3. The battle comes down to who gets the first/most Full Attacks.
    4. Relying on a combat maneuver could be sweet, but if it fails, the Barb kills the Ranger really, really fast. Even tripped, the Barb may kill the Ranger from the ground.
    5. Combat Expertise will not help NPC's AC enough to matter.

    So...
    TWF Ranger with decent archery skills and Quick Draw and a magic quiver with javelins and plenty of melee weapons.
    Start: Archery, Barbarian closes.
    Quick Draw to melee=ouch with FE, Ranger's advantage (Though advantage is relative, as it's PC vs. NPC)
    Barbarian stays, it's a meatfest both ways, but if Barb has two attacks to Ranger's four (w/FE +4/+6) Ranger has advantage vs. low AC Barb.
    Barbarian notes FE advantage and tries to set up SA. (Ranger dropped bow, so why not?) Ranger drops weapons (he has tons of mw ones) and throws javelins. TWF to throw with both hands & Quick Draw, gets four attacks still (or more with Rapid Shot), the FE (and relatively low AC PC) means plenty of hits despite the minuses.
    Repeat as needed until out of melee weapons, then 5' step as needed to throw.

    Barbarian didn't close initially? How about some Bane arrows to make you rethink not closing?
    Barbarian runs? Longstrider.

    BUT,
    Doesn't the Barbarian have allies? This makes the situation so different that discussion becomes near meaningless.
    Hold Person. Oops, so much for that archvillain.
    Moving on, as perhaps they're facing their own burdens.

    Since it's a nemesis, you may want to work against the Barb's strengths in more annoying/memorable ways.
    You like Spring Attack?
    I like Spike Stones. Move as much as you like.
    Or don't, because I've decided I like Entangle. (Save each time you come and go.)
    Or maybe I like Spring Attack too (and that's why I hate YOU), but we're in difficult terrain where I'm not hampered, but you are. And I have Longstrider and took Fleet 3x, so it's really tough for you to catch me now, and you'll never get away.
    Readied an action against me? I'm using a THW, so I can throw too. Or maybe I use a reach weapon. Or maybe I have mooks with bows.
    Not to mention I'm really stealthy, so when you activate your rage, I can step away and wait because this is MY FOREST, B....!

    Calm Emotions (if you can work it in somehow) is also a nice Anti-Barb/archfoe resource.
    If you want him to take on the whole party, he'll have to be 4+levels higher than them and use Stealth a lot, sniping them down, and Entangle & terrain become more important.
    Poison?
    An illusion/distraction or two to trip their Black Tentacles and other instant stops would be very useful.

    And since he is an archfoe and it's a 'big scene', think about dangerous terrain, not just difficult. Poison nettles, fissures the Ranger can easily jump, waterfalls, slippery/icy sharp rocks, forest fire, etc...
    A chase? (That could lure the faster Barb away from some parties.)

    Anyway, good luck with this.
    JMK


    Also consider the Turtle style from Ultimate Combat. Whenever an opponent misses you, you can attempt to grapple him. Combine with readied actions to trip - and you have two potential chances to halt your spring-attacker.

    Combine with the various trip/grapple combo feats like Vicious Stomp.


    Castilliano wrote:


    Points:
    1. Spring Attack is one PC option, of many. The Barbarian is likely just as happy in Full Attack mode, so addressing Spring Attack is only step one. Step 2 is having an NPC be able to survive/outdo a Full Attack from a Barbarian.
    2. Spring Attack cannot begin next to the target. (Change from 3.x.)
    3. The battle comes down to who gets the first/most Full Attacks.
    4. Relying on a combat maneuver could be sweet, but if it fails, the Barb kills the Ranger really, really fast. Even tripped, the Barb may kill the Ranger from the ground.
    5. Combat Expertise will not help NPC's AC enough to matter.

    So...
    TWF Ranger with decent archery skills and Quick Draw and a magic quiver with javelins and plenty of melee weapons.
    Start: Archery, Barbarian closes.
    Quick Draw to melee=ouch with FE, Ranger's advantage (Though advantage is relative, as it's PC vs. NPC)
    Barbarian stays, it's a meatfest both ways, but if Barb has two attacks to Ranger's four (w/FE +4/+6) Ranger has advantage vs. low AC Barb.
    Barbarian notes FE advantage and tries to set up SA. (Ranger dropped bow, so why not?) Ranger drops weapons (he has tons of mw ones) and throws javelins. TWF to throw with both hands & Quick Draw, gets four attacks still (or more with Rapid Shot), the FE (and relatively low AC PC) means plenty of hits despite the minuses.
    Repeat as needed until out of melee weapons, then 5' step as needed to throw.

    Barbarian didn't close initially? How about some Bane arrows to make you rethink not closing?
    Barbarian runs? Longstrider.

    BUT,
    Doesn't the Barbarian have allies? This makes the situation so different that discussion becomes near meaningless.
    Hold Person. Oops, so much for that archvillain.
    Moving on, as perhaps they're facing their own burdens.

    Since it's a nemesis, you may want to work against the Barb's strengths in more annoying/memorable ways.
    You like Spring Attack?
    I like Spike Stones. Move as much as you like.
    Or don't, because I've decided I like Entangle. (Save each time...

    +1

    When discussing the rest of the PCs being a part as well, action economy takes it's toll, you can't really ready an action to trip the barb when you are being pelted with spells and arrows otherwise. Large pit traps, snares, and lots of cover to condense lanes for charging are your best bet. Triggered walls of force to split the group in the form of traps, or entangle + thorn rows/thorn wall for lower levels would be pretty much necessary.


    Yeah. This game hasn't started yet, and likely won't for some time. I don't know for sure what the other players will be playing, though I can make an educated guess for one of them.

    However, I do know that I need to make this ranger NPC, and he needs to have a memorable, challenging fight with this fighter/barbarian PC. The encounter when he shows up will involve some other enemies, but they'll be designed once I know what the rest of the party is, as they need to keep them busy and off of the ranger/not helping the barbarian.

    I like the idea of a chase to separate the more mobile barbarian from the rest of the party! I'm pretty confident that would work in this case :>

    Owner - House of Books and Games LLC

    Another option is someone with the Staggering Critical feat who uses the named bullet spell (from Ultimate Combat).

    Tough to use Spring Attack when you've only got a standard action.

    named bullet wrote:

    You imbue the target with deadly accuracy against a selected creature type (and subtype for humanoids or outsiders) or a specific creature you know and can name. When used against the selected creature, the ammunition never misfires and is unaffected by concealment (but not total concealment), and at a range of 30 feet or less, the attack targets the selected creature's touch AC. When the target hits the selected creature, you must overcome that creature's spell resistance, or this spell has no effect. A normal hit scored using the target against the selected creature is considered to be a critical threat and deals 1 extra point of damage per caster level (maximum 20), which is not multiplied on a critical hit. A natural critical hit deals the same extra damage, but that damage is multiplied due to the critical.

    Once the target is used to attack the selected creature, successfully or not, this spell is discharged.

    So if you hit, it's a critical threat, and if it's confirmed, they're staggered for at least 1 round. Goodbye Sneak Attack. Hit with two or three of those and the PC is staggered for rounds.

    I used this against an epic fighter (Staggering Critical, not named bullet) who had a tendency to dervish dance with liberal use of auto-20s to force critical hits. Suddenly he's hitting once per round, and is not a happy camper.


    net proficiency, then move up the net adept chain. "Net and Trident" will mean that the Nemisis can have a ranged touch entangle and keep their weapon out. Net Adept lets the net turn into a 10ft reach weapon.


    I like Pounce.

    'I move forward, hit him, and move back.'

    'He charges and full-attacks.'

    Liberty's Edge

    The Whip Mastery chain of feats can be nasty, too. AoOs with a whip at 15' or so.

    Add in trip and disarm, and suddenly the Barbarian is trying an unarmed attack and provoking, again.

    High enough level includes Greater Trip as a readied action, and that provokes an AoO to disarm, say Greater Disamr, and the target's weapon is suddenly 15' away from them, while they are on the ground within your reach, but outside theirs. Sucks to be them.

    If the whip user is Dex-based, consider adding in Fury's Fall, from the Cheliax book, to bump their ability to trip...


    Caltrops. Cost about 1 gold, ignores most armor and reduces speed by half.


    Readied spellcaster with the various "Pit" spells can create a sudden obstacle that may prevent the spring attacker from reaching the target or getting far enough away.


    A ranged unit with Shot On The Run that holds it action to move / fire when the Spring Attacker comes in for the hit. However, this could make for a very annoying fight.

    The Exchange Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16

    Creating an NPC that is designed specifically to counter a PC strikes me as pretty meta-gamey for a GM. Is there some reason this NPC would be trained specifically to counter one particular tactic? Is there a reason that the players would wind up coincidentally opposing someone who is specifically trained to counter that players tactics?

    In any case, Spring Attack isn't good enough to really require specific counters be designed. Build a character who is good at making standard action attacks and he will be an effective counter to the spring attack master. Readied actions are often enough a good counter for the best spring attackers.


    The big bad can ready an action to hit or better yet trip mr mobility when it comes near him. Any big honking weapon and Vital strike ought to do it.

    RPG Superstar 2010 Top 32

    An archer.


    Flight.

    Any wizard -- or most witches, sorcerers with the right spells, clerics who get fly as a domain spell, and so on -- can pull this trick off, as can any creature with a native fly speed.

    For my money, I favor an Air elementalist wizard for the job. At tenth level -- the range you think this will start coming into play -- they can cast fly on themselves as many times as needed, freeing up spell slots for things like Lightning Bolt, Ray of Exhaustion, summon spells, and so on.

    EDIT: for extra kicks, you could make a flying wizard Arcane Archer. A wizard with 2 levels of Arcane Archer can imbue area spells into arrows so the spell has the range of the arrow. And if you're up in the air shooting DOWN at the ground, well, the range is essentially limitless since gravity is on your side. You don't even have to hit the target, just near it. BOOM.


    Dennis Baker wrote:
    Is there some reason this NPC would be trained specifically to counter one particular tactic? Is there a reason that the players would wind up coincidentally opposing someone who is specifically trained to counter that players tactics?

    Yes, there is. Without going too far into it, this NPC isn't trained to fight this tactic as much as they are very familiar with the PC and, essentially, have trained to fight them.


    Anetra wrote:
    Dennis Baker wrote:
    Is there some reason this NPC would be trained specifically to counter one particular tactic? Is there a reason that the players would wind up coincidentally opposing someone who is specifically trained to counter that players tactics?
    Yes, there is. Without going too far into it, this NPC isn't trained to fight this tactic as much as they are very familiar with the PC and, essentially, have trained to fight them.

    This is akin to Venom/Abomination/Bizarro/Moriarty or other mirror/rival examples. Uncommon in RPGs, but great in an ongoing story. An exceptional exception who requires the hero to rise above his normal tactics/strengths.

    I do think though that 'overknowing'/'overmatching' the PC's capabilities would be metagamey, but if the DM's doing it to entertain/challenge rather than annoy/kill the player/PC, (and it survives enough to be remembered) than it's worthwhile.

    Heck, any DM that adjusts their storyline/obstacles to the PC's abilities is metagamey, and while I don't advocate that (players should adjust to the challenges, IMO, not vice-versa) it is commonly espoused on these threads.
    Though that topic, I suppose, may threaten derailment...

    The Exchange Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16

    Now see if it were an ongoing rivalry that seems like it would make a lot of sense. But that doesn't seem to be what was suggested. I think a recurring villain would be a blast.

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