Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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All this speculation about 5e is way off base. Monte is helping them with the release of "Advanced D&D Revisited", a fork from the 3.5 tree.So .. basically they are not doing a 5e, they've instead realised that there is a huge marked for 3.x and are trying to claw back a chunk of it after trying to kill it dead? Now that is interesting.
Its as good a theory as any :)
Its as good a theory as any :)All this speculation about 5e is way off base. Monte is helping them with the release of "Advanced D&D Revisited", a fork from the 3.5 tree.So .. basically they are not doing a 5e, they've instead realised that there is a huge marked for 3.x and are trying to claw back a chunk of it after trying to kill it dead? Now that is interesting.
If that's the case, I wonder if they'd do something along the lines of what White-Wolf is up to right now?
If that's the case, I wonder if they'd do something along the lines of what White-Wolf is up to right now?
Dying a slow death?
If that's the case, I wonder if they'd do something along the lines of what White-Wolf is up to right now?Dying a slow death?
Publishing cleaned up anniversary editions of their old game lines alongside the new ones. Though admittedly, probably that too if this tactic doesn't turn things around for them.
Publishing cleaned up anniversary editions of their old game lines alongside the new ones. Though admittedly, probably that too if this tactic doesn't turn things around for them.If that's the case, I wonder if they'd do something along the lines of what White-Wolf is up to right now?Dying a slow death?
Wake me when that is actually sold in stores.
Print on demand is a great way for a small company to break into the industry. Once, White Wolf rivaled D&D in sales. Now they are just slowly dying. As a fan, I'm glad I can get classic WoD books again. But I can't imagine they will recover from their death spiral.
Some of you are defending 4E Forgotten Realms? For real?
After all those years of high quality books and boxed sets? You think the 4E Realms book was even close to the quality we had come to expect from a Forgotten Realms product?
Changes be damned. I don't care when the Realms change. The books had so little to do with the rule set. Every good Forgotten Realms DM made the PCs the stars.
I disliked 4E Forgotten Realms because the product quality was a GINORMOUS drop off from previous products. Forgotten Realms books in the 3E era were beautifully done books filled with loads of crunch and fluff as well as enormously detailed maps and great art.
Thus was carried on the tradition from 2E of high quality, collectible Forgotten Realms material that included all the great box sets.
We still look at all the great 2E and 3E Forgotten Realms and wistfully remember when that was the best developed setting D&D had ever put out.
The changes to the Forgotten Realms are minor concerns compared to the enormous drop off in quality. That is not even arguable to anyone that owns old Forgotten Realms material. I don't care how much you love the 4E changes to the Forgotten Realms, don't even try and tell me the 4E Realms books hold a candle to 2E and 3E material. Not even in the same ballpark for quality.
I didn't think the 3.5 books were high quality. I thought they were confused, overly focussed on mechanics and uninspiring.
It's not defense, it's a difference in taste.
Taste is an argument for fluff and rules material. Not what I'm talking about at all. So what if you like the fluff and rules material better as a 4E guy. That's taste. Liking that material better is like having an argument over Coke and Pepsi.
I'm talking about quality of the book. The amount of detail put into each book. The binding, the cover, the paper the book is printed on, the level of detail and effort put into the maps, the look of the book, the artwork inside, the effort and money put into the book.
4E Forgotten Realms books don't hold a candle to 3E and 2E when it comes to quality.
Tastes may differ. But quality is measurable and the 3E books and the 2E boxed sets were quality books you felt were worth your money because they looked so great. The maps alone were practically worth what you paid for the book.
What happened to D&D cartography? They used to make such cool maps. Luckily Pathfinder must still employ the cartographer/artists that used to work for D&D. Their maps still look pretty great.
Its as good a theory as any :)
I don't think it holds a candle to the the theory that the giant space hamsters at Hasbro are calling him home.
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Taste is an argument for fluff and rules material. Not what I'm talking about at all. So what if you like the fluff and rules material better as a 4E guy. That's taste. Liking that material better is like having an argument over Coke and Pepsi.
I'm talking about quality of the book. The amount of detail put into each book. The binding, the cover, the paper the book is printed on, the level of detail and effort put into the maps, the look of the book, the artwork inside, the effort and money put into the book.
4E Forgotten Realms books don't hold a candle to 3E and 2E when it comes to quality.
Tastes may differ. But quality is measurable and the 3E books and the 2E boxed sets were quality books you felt were worth your money because they looked so great. The maps alone were practically worth what you paid for the book.
What happened to D&D cartography? They used to make such cool maps. Luckily Pathfinder must still employ the cartographer/artists that used to work for D&D. Their maps still look pretty great.
It's pretty laffo that you said "It's not about taste" and then immidiately launched into how it's entirely about taste.
It's a lot more laffo that you seem to have some bizarre rating scale where you identify different types of paper used and then quantify the worthiness of artwork inside as an objective measure.
Publishing cleaned up anniversary editions of their old game lines alongside the new ones. Though admittedly, probably that too if this tactic doesn't turn things around for them.If that's the case, I wonder if they'd do something along the lines of what White-Wolf is up to right now?Dying a slow death?
Uhhhhh what.
White Wolf is releasing a single anniversary edition of oVamp. That's it.
It'd be the equivilent of WotC pulling out a single book that combined the core books for OD&D or AD&D1e for D&D's anniversary. And then followed by everyone here going "THERE YOU GO WOTC IS DONE PAIZO JUST GO AHEAD AND BUY THE COMPANY" I suppose.
I'm talking about quality of the book. The amount of detail put into each book. The binding, the cover, the paper the book is printed on, the level of detail and effort put into the maps, the look of the book, the artwork inside, the effort and money put into the book.
4E Forgotten Realms books don't hold a candle to 3E and 2E when it comes to quality.
Tastes may differ. But quality is measurable and the 3E books and the 2E boxed sets were quality books you felt were worth your money because they looked so great. The maps alone were practically worth what you paid for the book.
What happened to D&D cartography? They used to make such cool maps. Luckily Pathfinder must still employ the cartographer/artists that used to work for D&D. Their maps still look pretty great.
I don't know how you think these things are measurable - I didn't feel they were worth my money because they looked great, I bought them to ensure my library was complete. I regret getting rid of my gray boxed set, but nothing else.
As for "I'm not talking about taste....what happened to D&D cartography?" it seems to me you're letting your emotional investment cloud your argument. You're clearly talking about taste here - it's not an objective fact.
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I've never seen a FR product from any edition that really grabbed me.
A big part of the FR problem is that while you can modify and resell the "crunch" or rules, it's much harder to do the same thing with the fluff. I have at least three different Waterdeep products and multiples in a number of different areas. The basics are set and there is very little you can do to differentiate from what came before, so you end up with a lot of drivel.
The 4e version could have escaped this fate, but weasels neglected to make a clean break from the past. So you have a lot of tedious crap (Drizz't and Elminster for starters) that continue to stink up the new setting and other changes (dragonborn realm) were made solely so you could sell new miniatures.
I think the fact that WotC published the Eberron campaign setting from an open call while they had not only multiple camapign settings thhey had developed and professional developers on staff was a clear indication that they had lost their mojo. And it has all been downhill from there.
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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I've never seen a FR product from any edition that really grabbed me.
I believe that the 'best' FR supliments were actually the 2e Deities books. They had a fair amount of crunch (in the specialty priests) as well as not only the deity's history, but details on how their churches function. But YRMV of course.
I think the fact that WotC published the Eberron campaign setting from an open call while they had not only multiple camapign settings thhey had developed and professional developers on staff was a clear indication that they had lost their mojo. And it has all been downhill from there.
<snark>Wow, then Paizo's been going downhill for the past three years, and gearing up for a fourth year of going down hill as people are chomping at the bit for RPG superstar.</snark>
I never understood why WotC never 'ported' their M:tG world(s) into a campaign setting myself.
I think WotC would learn from the Paizo model. In some ways, the Pathfinder RPG has grown beyond its original function (keeping a system that the Paizo staff find is best suited to their style of adventures) to a RPG game of its own. This started in the Core book (Clerics of philosophy weren't needed for Golarion) and had expanded (some of the archtypes aren't 'clean fits' to Golarion, I feel) The RPG is 'fluff lite' while the Chronicles products are 'fluff heavy'.
Plus, with the embracing of the OGL, we have an abundance of products that fill 'gaps' Paizo might not be interesting in doing. Bonus is that if SGG or Rite, or LPG, (or even some fool like me) makes something that Paizo wants to include in a future book, they just need to include credit (though my experience is they ask first).
Uhhhhh what.
White Wolf is releasing a single anniversary edition of oVamp. That's it.
It'd be the equivilent of WotC pulling out a single book that combined the core books for OD&D or AD&D1e for D&D's anniversary. And then followed by everyone here going "THERE YOU GO WOTC IS DONE PAIZO JUST GO AHEAD AND BUY THE COMPANY" I suppose.
Actually the Vampire one was popular enough that they have announced a Werewolf one. I hope that does well enough that they make a Mage one. They are also slowly putting their entire back catalog up at DriveThruRPG using print on demand.
I say they are dying because 5 years ago, they were the number 2 seller on the top 5 RPG list from ICv2. They slowly fell off it. That means today they are somewhere below Shadowrun and Dragon Age in sales. The number of print releases they've put out has diminished to a small fraction of what they used to. If that isn't dying, I don't know what is. They may be able to limp along reselling their old books, but they are just a wraith of their former selves.
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Taste is an argument for fluff and rules material. Not what I'm talking about at all. So what if you like the fluff and rules material better as a 4E guy. That's taste. Liking that material better is like having an argument over Coke and Pepsi.
I'm talking about quality of the book. The amount of detail put into each book. The binding, the cover, the paper the book is printed on, the level of detail and effort put into the maps, the look of the book, the artwork inside, the effort and money put into the book.
4E Forgotten Realms books don't hold a candle to 3E and 2E when it comes to quality.
Tastes may differ. But quality is measurable and the 3E books and the 2E boxed sets were quality books you felt were worth your money because they looked so great. The maps alone were practically worth what you paid for the book.
What happened to D&D cartography? They used to make such cool maps. Luckily Pathfinder must still employ the cartographer/artists that used to work for D&D. Their maps still look pretty great.
It's pretty laffo that you said "It's not about taste" and then immidiately launched into how it's entirely about taste.
It's a lot more laffo that you seem to have some bizarre rating scale where you identify different types of paper used and then quantify the worthiness of artwork inside as an objective measure.
+1
Well, 3E books that were fluff-bent were fine till the Shining South and the Serpent Kingdoms. These two were the last that I really enjoyed, but latter mostly sucked (not saying that there weren't any rotten eggs earlier), but it was pretty bad afterward.
Its as good a theory as any :)All this speculation about 5e is way off base. Monte is helping them with the release of "Advanced D&D Revisited", a fork from the 3.5 tree.So .. basically they are not doing a 5e, they've instead realised that there is a huge marked for 3.x and are trying to claw back a chunk of it after trying to kill it dead? Now that is interesting.
I can't see it achieving much.
Uhhhhh what.
White Wolf is releasing a single anniversary edition of oVamp. That's it.
It'd be the equivilent of WotC pulling out a single book that combined the core books for OD&D or AD&D1e for D&D's anniversary. And then followed by everyone here going "THERE YOU GO WOTC IS DONE PAIZO JUST GO AHEAD AND BUY THE COMPANY" I suppose.
Actually the Vampire one was popular enough that they have announced a Werewolf one. I hope that does well enough that they make a Mage one. They are also slowly putting their entire back catalog up at DriveThruRPG using print on demand.
I say they are dying because 5 years ago, they were the number 2 seller on the top 5 RPG list from ICv2. They slowly fell off it. That means today they are somewhere below Shadowrun and Dragon Age in sales. The number of print releases they've put out has diminished to a small fraction of what they used to. If that isn't dying, I don't know what is. They may be able to limp along reselling their old books, but they are just a wraith of their former selves.
<Facepalm>
It's a shame as World of Darkness (by 2nd edition) was actually really good, and I played in a truly epic campaign of it - in fact I still have an entire shelf of material on my bookcase. Thing is ... they released so much stuff that when they released a third edition ... well I wasn't going to buy it. Perhaps White Wolf is the future of D&D with WotC, releasing rules upon rules is not enough - it's a dead end. It's settings and adventure paths that hold the long term success in this game.
I am not sure settings and adventure paths are necessarily the best forward. It seems to be working for Paizo, so more power to them, but I doubt it is easier to make money that way than by concentrating on publishing rules. Plenty of people play in homebrew settings and/or run their own adventures. Personally, for example, I am not really interested in purchasing published adventures, because I create my own. It is difficult to judge what proportion of gamers does the same, but I would venture a guess that it is fairly substantial.
Uhhhhh what.
White Wolf is releasing a single anniversary edition of oVamp. That's it.
It'd be the equivilent of WotC pulling out a single book that combined the core books for OD&D or AD&D1e for D&D's anniversary. And then followed by everyone here going "THERE YOU GO WOTC IS DONE PAIZO JUST GO AHEAD AND BUY THE COMPANY" I suppose.
Actually the Vampire one was popular enough that they have announced a Werewolf one. I hope that does well enough that they make a Mage one. They are also slowly putting their entire back catalog up at DriveThruRPG using print on demand.
I say they are dying because 5 years ago, they were the number 2 seller on the top 5 RPG list from ICv2. They slowly fell off it. That means today they are somewhere below Shadowrun and Dragon Age in sales. The number of print releases they've put out has diminished to a small fraction of what they used to. If that isn't dying, I don't know what is. They may be able to limp along reselling their old books, but they are just a wraith of their former selves.
That's good to hear about the Werewolf one being announced. Like you I'm more looking forward to one for Mage as well.
It's the main reason I picked up the Vampire PDF.
<Facepalm>It's a shame as World of Darkness (by 2nd edition) was actually really good, and I played in a truly epic campaign of it - in fact I still have an entire shelf of material on my bookcase. Thing is ... they released so much stuff that when they released a third edition ... well I wasn't going to buy it. Perhaps White Wolf is the future of D&D with WotC, releasing rules upon rules is not enough - it's a dead end....
You missed out. The re-working for NWoD was great in my opinion (other than the simplifying of Mage, which disappointed me immensely). You're also being unfair to WW here. Check the timeline on the releases, they weren't shoving it down people's throats and there was a nice, big gap between OWoD and NWoD.
Not to mention the fact that the New World of Darkness ISN'T what killed the line. It was going strong until they sold out to that company and there was a cease-and-desist on publishing any books not on the schedule. The new parent company then gutted the creative talent to use in creating an MMO based on the New World of Darkness that is, as far as I can tell, still frickin' vaporware.
Don't spread misinformation, please.
I am not sure settings and adventure paths are necessarily the best forward. It seems to be working for Paizo, so more power to them, but I doubt it is easier to make money that way than by concentrating on publishing rules. Plenty of people play in homebrew settings and/or run their own adventures. Personally, for example, I am not really interested in purchasing published adventures, because I create my own. It is difficult to judge what proportion of gamers does the same, but I would venture a guess that it is fairly substantial.
Then you make setting-neutral adventures and release supplements that help people create their own worlds as well as supply them with a campaign setting.
I say they are dying because 5 years ago, they were the number 2 seller on the top 5 RPG list from ICv2. They slowly fell off it. That means today they are somewhere below Shadowrun and Dragon Age in sales.
According to our own Ryan Dancey when he worked there, White Wolf's tabletop games are now considered a "legacy product" rather then something they emphasis and actively work on/towards.
Of course this was back when he was saying tabletop games as a whole were going to die any day now.
Publishing cleaned up anniversary editions of their old game lines alongside the new ones. Though admittedly, probably that too if this tactic doesn't turn things around for them.If that's the case, I wonder if they'd do something along the lines of what White-Wolf is up to right now?Dying a slow death?Uhhhhh what.
White Wolf is releasing a single anniversary edition of oVamp. That's it.
Maybe he's Camarilla? In the live action society apparently there was a strong pull for the flavor and lore of oWoD, so much so that when White Wolf began to support oWoD for Camarilla again, a substantial amount of venues switched over damn near immediately, apparently consensus was while the rules were largely felt to be superior to the previous editions the allure of the old world of darkness setting and flavor was what the Cam players had loved the most.
Take this statement with a grain of salt as it's what I've heard from my friends who still play Cam and have been involved in the running of their regional venues. So while I wouldn't be surprised if that was the case accuracy is based on hearsay.
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Oh. This is the groundless speculation thread. In three years Paizo will be doing so well they buy White Wolf after the MMO fizzles. A glorious new era of World of Darkness will be created.
Oh. This is the groundless speculation thread. In three years Paizo will be doing so well they buy White Wolf after the MMO fizzles. A glorious new era of World of Darkness will be created.
Further idle groundless speculation: Savage Worlds' popularity will experience an unexpected mega boost in sales due to the recent release of the hard cover rule book. While all other major companies proceed to decline they'll scoop them up one by one taking White Wolf, Wizards, Catalyst, Paizo and reissuing all settings under the Savage Worlds license and taking only bits and pieces of the mechanics and applying it to the various Player's Guides as traits and hindrances. A scandal will rock the upper echelons of the Pinnacle power-house and send that house of cards tumbling down with a laughing jester on top of things. Then Tripple Ace Games will swoop in after Wiggy wins five lotteries in a row and buy up the whole shebang making him the undisputed master of the RPG industry the likes of which all other companies are considered '3rd Party Publishers'.
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So you have a lot of tedious crap (Drizz't and Elminster for starters) that continue to stink up the new setting
Now there's a matter of opinion. Thing is you may say they stink up the setting but a lot of people are quite fond of those two characters, they have always been icons of the setting, and I, as a FR DM, never really felt they impacted my campaigns. I as a Forgotten Realms fan (and someone who has enjoyed the books about both characters) never really thought they were a negative side to the campaign at all.
Getting them to leave soon is unlikely in any event whether you love them or hate them. Drizzt and Elminster are both moneymakers for the Forgotten Realms novel line and I know people who downright hate the new edition and realms that still buy books about those characters religiously. If Elminster goes it'll likely be because Ed Greenwood passed away and I imagine R.A. Salvatore will continue to write about that Dark Elf that has inspired so many blatant ripoff characters until he runs out of ideas.
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Publishing cleaned up anniversary editions of their old game lines alongside the new ones. Though admittedly, probably that too if this tactic doesn't turn things around for them.If that's the case, I wonder if they'd do something along the lines of what White-Wolf is up to right now?Dying a slow death?Uhhhhh what.
White Wolf is releasing a single anniversary edition of oVamp. That's it.
It'd be the equivilent of WotC pulling out a single book that combined the core books for OD&D or AD&D1e for D&D's anniversary. And then followed by everyone here going "THERE YOU GO WOTC IS DONE PAIZO JUST GO AHEAD AND BUY THE COMPANY" I suppose.
What is hard to tell from that list is how many of those products are PDF or Print. But I have hardly seen any new books at my local store this year. Disappear from stores, and disappear from the public consciousness.
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What is hard to tell from that list is how many of those products are PDF or Print. But I have hardly seen any new books at my local store this year. Disappear from stores, and disappear from the public consciousness.
I think they're moving to digital/pod products. But they're bringing the oWoD back (not just the 20th anniv books, a whole new "Path of Onyx" line).
Regardless of the format, it's still more material per month than, say, WotC.
If you look at Black Diamond Games's Quest for Fun blog, he lists the top dozen RPG sellers this year. Palladium is on it. Posthuman Studios is on it. Indie Press revolution is on it. White Wolf is too small to list.
Some of you are defending 4E Forgotten Realms? For real?
After all those years of high quality books and boxed sets? You think the 4E Realms book was even close to the quality we had come to expect from a Forgotten Realms product?
The 4E Realms book wasn't even close to the quality that one would expect for any 4E book. The only other settings I've seen that are worst than that book are ironically previous editions of the Forgotten Realms which decided that throwing in reams and reams of information makes a good setting to the point where I couldn't really even parody how absurd it is. Its kind of annoying too because the best 4E has to offer is another Forgotten Realms setting.
The 4e version could have escaped this fate, but weasels neglected to make a clean break from the past. So you have a lot of tedious crap (Drizz't and Elminster for starters) that continue to stink up the new setting and other changes (dragonborn realm) were made solely so you could sell new miniatures.
I think the fact that WotC published the Eberron campaign setting from an open call while they had not only multiple camapign settings thhey had developed and professional developers on staff was a clear indication that they had lost their mojo. And it has all been downhill from there.
*Ok personal pet peeve* Please tell me you mispelled his name on purpose. It's spelled Drizzt and has been for the last 20+ years. This iconic character has been in comics, N.Y. Times novel best seller lists, video games (on multiple occasions), miniatures, board games, and has even had his weapons actually replicated for collectors (I got the cheap-o ones as an X-Mas gift from my wife, bless her heart).
So to just kill off this Cash-Cow would be bad for buisness by every stretch of the word. In fact, I think the biggest Drizzt haters are Realms fans and other players of D&D because he's become more than just the game. It's like a group of Emo-kids liking a Punk Band and when that band goes big they're now "Sell-Outs!" or some other stupid moniker.
Elminster, I have less of a good opinion of. I like his confused and disoriented state he currently is in. The fact that pretty diminished and can't be counted on to save the Realms from horrors beyond belief makes me feel like it's my turn (as a Player) to wear the mantle of hero. Still, I'm glad he's around as a "Break Glass in Case of Emergency" situations.
And to touch on the "(dragonborn realm) were made solely so you could sell new miniatures"....seriously? I wanna believe your just angered in your belief that they "shoe-horned" the Dragonborn into the Realms. But if your really serious about this comment, I'd have to say that I couldn't disagree with this statement more. First lets not forget that Dragonborn have been in the Realms since the conept was drafted back when Races of the Dragon debut in 3E. Then, lets not forget that there are Realms supplements that depict a group of heroes of Damara defeating Orcus on Bahamut's behalf (you know, the main source on how Dragonborn were first created). There's also Dragonkin that are on Faerûn as well (Monsters of Faerûn). Furthermore lets not discard sheer amount of Player Options to make a "Dragon character" more viable in 3E. Least we wouldn't have "Races of the Dragon", "Draconomicon", and "Dragon Magic" supplements plus Dragon-based classes and Prestige Classes throughtout the edition. All of which depects player options on playing a dragon.
So yea, I'm basing my belief that people like playing dragon-style character for various reasons and that's no exception when using the Realms as a setting. Sure they could've used a dozen or so reasons Dragonborn have emerged stronger during the Spellplague but then they'd have no reason to be rid of that awful, mis-managed area known as Mulhorand :P.
What is hard to tell from that list is how many of those products are PDF or Print. But I have hardly seen any new books at my local store this year. Disappear from stores, and disappear from the public consciousness.I think they're moving to digital/pod products. But they're bringing the oWoD back (not just the 20th anniv books, a whole new "Path of Onyx" line).
Regardless of the format, it's still more material per month than, say, WotC.
I think WoTC are following a similar path, in fact. It seems tome they're moving further away from hardcopy books and putting out more and more through the DDI, unfortunately.
The 4e version could have escaped this fate, but weasels neglected to make a clean break from the past. So you have a lot of tedious crap (Drizz't and Elminster for starters) that continue to stink up the new setting and other changes (dragonborn realm) were made solely so you could sell new miniatures.
I think the fact that WotC published the Eberron campaign setting from an open call while they had not only multiple camapign settings thhey had developed and professional developers on staff was a clear indication that they had lost their mojo. And it has all been downhill from there.
*Ok personal pet peeve* Please tell me you mispelled his name on purpose. It's spelled Drizzt and has been for the last 20+ years. This iconic character has been in comics, N.Y. Times novel best seller lists, video games (on multiple occasions), miniatures, board games, and has even had his weapons actually replicated for collectors (I got the cheap-o ones as an X-Mas gift from my wife, bless her heart).
So to just kill off this Cash-Cow would be bad for buisness by every stretch of the word. In fact, I think the biggest Drizzt haters are Realms fans and other players of D&D because he's become more than just the game. It's like a group of Emo-kids liking a Punk Band and when that band goes big they're now "Sell-Outs!" or some other stupid moniker.
Personally I hate Drizzt for His endless moralizing and rather shallow plots.
Elminster, I have less of a good opinion of. I like his confused and disoriented state he currently is in. The fact that pretty diminished and can't be counted on to save the Realms from horrors beyond belief makes me feel like it's my turn (as a Player) to wear the mantle of hero. Still, I'm glad he's around as a "Break Glass in Case of Emergency" situations.
Well, not that he wasn’t busy before, busy enough to leave ton of work needing heroes.
And to touch on the "(dragonborn realm) were made solely so you could sell new miniatures"....seriously? I wanna believe your just angered in your belief that they "shoe-horned" the Dragonborn into the Realms. But if your really serious about this comment, I'd have to say that I couldn't disagree with this statement more. First lets not forget that Dragonborn have been in the Realms since the conept was drafted back when Races of the Dragon debut in 3E. Then, lets not forget that there are Realms supplements that depict a group of heroes of Damara defeating Orcus on Bahamut's behalf (you know, the main source on how Dragonborn were first created). There's also Dragonkin that are on Faerûn as well (Monsters of Faerûn). Furthermore lets not discard sheer amount of Player Options to make a "Dragon character" more viable in 3E. Least we wouldn't have "Races of the Dragon", "Draconomicon", and "Dragon Magic" supplements plus Dragon-based classes and Prestige Classes throughtout the edition. All of which depects player options on playing a dragon.So yea, I'm basing my belief that people like playing dragon-style character for various reasons and that's no exception when using the Realms as a setting. Sure they could've used a dozen or so reasons Dragonborn have emerged stronger during the Spellplague but then they'd have no reason to be rid of that awful, mis-managed area known as Mulhorand :P.
Well a ritual that *could* create a Dragonborn is somewhat less invasive than landing a nation AND a continent filled with them into a known world. They did a better job with Thieflings IMO.
And they could just bring them in as an exploration fleet from Zakhara or whathever the Dragonborn could be living without anyone noticing before and landing in Firedrake bay on shores of Weldath (pretty empty there), Dambrath, or wherever. One local event, no need to nuke anything because of that. Dragonborn could be a byproduct of Cult of the Dragon experiments or even remnants of divine army sent to war against Tiamat in Unther if you wanted to add them inland.
3E Canon did offer a way to get some dragonborn into your Realms, but it didn’t work with them by default IMO. I also don’t see any reason to have EVERYTHING in EVERY WORLD in EVERY PART of that world, not even the Realms. They could have made just an exploration book about a different part of the world and be done with it. Do I need to have Warforged in Dark Sun? No. Can I bring them in? Well yes, I can. Being handled an option to add something if I want it is much better than saying that if I want the world as I’ve known it for X years I should get books no longer in print, or PDFs you’ve ceased to sell (without revoking the the fact that their distribution is illegal), otherwise I’m stuck with whatever you’re currently publishing.
Oh. This is the groundless speculation thread. In three years Paizo will be doing so well they buy White Wolf after the MMO fizzles. A glorious new era of World of Darkness will be created.
As long as we're shooting for the moon, why not just have Paizo buy up CCP? In five years, EVE Online will be officially renamed...
...Pathfinder 40,000.
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If you look at Black Diamond Games's Quest for Fun blog, he lists the top dozen RPG sellers this year. Palladium is on it. Posthuman Studios is on it. Indie Press revolution is on it. White Wolf is too small to list.
I'm going to employ the "DDI defense" here and say that BDG's blog is based purely on brick and mortar sales and it does not reflect digital stuff. And for WW the digital side of the business is even more important than to WotC and Paizo, i'd say, because:
a) many of their books are PDF-only
b) There's the Onebookshelf (DrivethruRPG) which was established by White Wolf folks (not sure who's the owner currently), which carries their entire back catalog of oWoD products.
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Well, Paizo has had my loyalty ever since 4E came out. I could never get into 4E, whereas PF took everything I liked about 3/3.5 D&D, fixed the bits I didn't like and put it all in the blender, coming up with something I really loved.
I can't see myself going back to WotC in future...
If you look at Black Diamond Games's Quest for Fun blog, he lists the top dozen RPG sellers this year. Palladium is on it. Posthuman Studios is on it. Indie Press revolution is on it. White Wolf is too small to list.I'm going to employ the "DDI defense" here and say that BDG's blog is based purely on brick and mortar sales and it does not reflect digital stuff. And for WW the digital side of the business is even more important than to WotC and Paizo, i'd say, because:
a) many of their books are PDF-only
b) There's the Onebookshelf (DrivethruRPG) which was established by White Wolf folks (not sure who's the owner currently), which carries their entire back catalog of oWoD products.
It wasn't a defense (if you were referring to me) since I don't really care for popularity contests. I just thought it was a perspective most here wouldn't be aware of - I would guess that WoTC passed the "greater than 50% digital content" mark early in 2011. (though that's a purely subjective judgement, not based on any actual page count).
There are a good many things that WotC had as advantages that they no longer have. The first was mass market distribution. There was literally a hand ful of people that worked at borders and b&n that decided if your book was going to be carried by their chain and in what quantity. WotC knew how to play that game well, effectively Munchkining that sales channel. Borders is gone and b&n isn't looking to healthy. So that is no longer something in their favor.
The next is the preference of print vs PDF. While electronic distribution of their game books has not been their primary focus, a new edition will certainly require it. But atthe end of the day, it is going to about as easy to download a WotC book as it is to download indy games that have almost no print distribution. And they'll work just as easily on a tablet.
There's more, but i have to get ready for the day job.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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What is hard to tell from that list is how many of those products are PDF or Print. But I have hardly seen any new books at my local store this year. Disappear from stores, and disappear from the public consciousness.I think they're moving to digital/pod products. But they're bringing the oWoD back (not just the 20th anniv books, a whole new "Path of Onyx" line).
Regardless of the format, it's still more material per month than, say, WotC.
That's cool. I've held off on the PDf of the 20th anniversary to see what the PoD/PDF format costs.
I actually like the fluff of Forsaken over Apocalypse, but here's to hoping for Mage and KotE stuff.
*Ok personal pet peeve* Please tell me you mispelled his name on purpose. It's spelled Drizzt and has been for the last 20+ years.
Well the original spelling was Driz'zt. But that is fine, spelling now can stay Drizzt. Still, go ahead and try to pronounce it. I Still here different pronunciations of it.
My pet peave is Drow pronounced like a bow and arrow. I have always pronounced it as bow being the front of a boat. Drives me as crazy as people from the west saying Soda is Pop. Can I have a POP? <Punch>
SO! In the spirit of rabidly disagreeing with people who you agree with, that this thread seems to be all about, here I go!
(ALSO, this is an extremely long post, as I'm wont to make, so just be aware).
(ALSO, ALSO, Mournblade94, seriously, chill, it's just a pop! *ducks the incoming swing(s)!* [*also is from the East and doesn't use that term outside of this post*])
I am not sure settings and adventure paths are necessarily the best forward. It seems to be working for Paizo, so more power to them, but I doubt it is easier to make money that way than by concentrating on publishing rules. Plenty of people play in homebrew settings and/or run their own adventures. Personally, for example, I am not really interested in purchasing published adventures, because I create my own. It is difficult to judge what proportion of gamers does the same, but I would venture a guess that it is fairly substantial.
Then you make setting-neutral adventures and release supplements that help people create their own worlds as well as supply them with a campaign setting.
Well, Roman, I was going to say exactly what Chuck said, except he already said it, so let me disagree with him* and you** and also add:
Forgotten Realms, as a published setting, assisted D&D in many ways, and aided its continued success (as did Dragonlance and Greyhawk), ranging from pre-published adventures, novels, and videogames, to other mechanizable stuff based off the setting, even as it was disconnected (often) from the PnP game (as Mournblade94 mentioned). Without their powerful settings, and making and pushing things for them, D&D under WotC may very well have floundered into death.
Now onto more agreeing-by-disagreeing-by-agreeing shenanigans!
rant about 4E being a business ploy and not being radical enough:The 4e version could have escaped this fate, but weasels neglected to make a clean break from the past. So you have a lot of tedious crap (Drizz't and Elminster for starters) that continue to stink up the new setting and other changes (dragonborn realm) were made solely so you could sell new miniatures.I think the fact that WotC published the Eberron campaign setting from an open call while they had not only multiple camapign settings thhey had developed and professional developers on staff was a clear indication that they had lost their mojo. And it has all been downhill from there.
rant about personal pet peeve(s):*Ok personal pet peeve* Please tell me you mispelled his name on purpose. It's spelled Drizzt and has been for the last 20+ years. This iconic character has been in comics, N.Y. Times novel best seller lists, video games (on multiple occasions), miniatures, board games, and has even had his weapons actually replicated for collectors (I got the cheap-o ones as an X-Mas gift from my wife, bless her heart).So to just kill off this Cash-Cow would be bad for buisness by every stretch of the word. In fact, I think the biggest Drizzt haters are Realms fans and other players of D&D because he's become more than just the game. It's like a group of Emo-kids liking a Punk Band and when that band goes big they're now "Sell-Outs!" or some other stupid moniker.
Personally I hate Drizzt for His endless moralizing and rather shallow plots.
Frankly I agree with both Zmar and Diffan! And sieylianna! Woo! Also, they're all wrong. :D
GIVEN: that the changes in the Realms were as large as they were...
THEN: it really is to the point, now, that they should have killed of Driz'zt, killed off Elminster, killed off/renamed every single country in the setting, and then finished by renaming the setting into something else.
Because honestly, the only things that remain similar are the names of a few iconic characters (though their personalities have been changed to protect the innocent) and the names of some of the locations (though their fundamental character and personalities have also been changed to protect the innocent).
The thing is, they didn't perfect a setting, they killed it, meshed it with another, and called it the same thing. I'm not even talking about personal tastes. There are things I love about the 4E FR. Things that I really think are great. The spell-plague was just a bad move. I mean, it's not even a bad background element, and there are great things, even for the realms, that a spell-plague could have accomplished, theoretically, however "returned Aber", the complete dissolution of all important (except for the money-making-names) people and places aren't some of them.
NOW!
GIVEN: Driz'zt and Elminster are, in fact, Drizzt and Elminster...
THEN: there is no way, by earth, heaven, or hell (or any other plane), that WotC would ever think of destroying them without a virtually-guaranteed-form-of-revenue and/or the death of those to whom they belong (R.A. Salvatore and Ed Greenwood, respectively).
ALSO!
GIVEN: that FR had a firm foundation upon which to build
THEN: they shouldn't have just wiped all that away just because they felt like it, and didn't want to have all the history it was involved with. Seriously, FR was a mishandled setting. While I really like some of the story-arcs, it flies in the face of two editions worth of canon, and that's just... ugh.
FINALLY (on this side of this topic)!
GIVEN: that Driz'zt is, in fact, one of the first fictional drow ever to come into existence, built by a man who was also in charge of creating drow culture, ...
THEN: it's kind of hard to fault either the character of Driz'zt or the writer Salvatore. I mean, Salvatore not only created the first fleshed out aspects of drow culture in FR, he did so as part of Driz'zt's background. With the original intention of making Driz'zt the cohort to Wulfgar. So, you know, much of the hatred aimed toward Driz'zt as being an unrealistic character (besides being part of a fantasy work by a sort-of-okay author) based on the world-setting (which, in personal history only, I admit, has been the source of most of the D-hate) is kind of null, considering the guy that created that aspect of the world-setting did so only so he could create Driz'zt. That said, I totally find him a bit moralizing and his stories tend toward (though are not completely within) the shallow side. I don't hate him, I just don't love him either.
Elminster, I have less of a good opinion of. I like his confused and disoriented state he currently is in. The fact that pretty diminished and can't be counted on to save the Realms from horrors beyond belief makes me feel like it's my turn (as a Player) to wear the mantle of hero. Still, I'm glad he's around as a "Break Glass in Case of Emergency" situations.
Well, not that he wasn’t busy before, busy enough to leave ton of work needing heroes.
Zmar is basically correct, here.
In fact, on one of the early pages of the 3.0 Forgotten Realms Campaign Settings book, Elminster has written a little note about why the "mighty" don't fix everything. Short version: there's a lot of "mighty", most of them disagree, they're all kind of politically tangled up together, and if one of them were to make a big move the others would too (probably against the one), which ultimately results in all of them doing an awful lot of busy work, mostly to counter-act each other.TL;DR: he's busy. Call on someone else to be your heroes, 'cause he's workin' over here.
And to touch on the "(dragonborn realm) were made solely so you could sell new miniatures"....seriously? I wanna believe your just angered in your belief that they "shoe-horned" the Dragonborn into the Realms. But if your really serious about this comment, I'd have to say that I couldn't disagree with this statement more. First lets not forget that Dragonborn have been in the Realms since the conept was drafted back when Races of the Dragon debut in 3E. Then, lets not forget that there are Realms supplements that depict a group of heroes of Damara defeating Orcus on Bahamut's behalf (you know, the main source on how Dragonborn were first created). There's also Dragonkin that are on Faerûn as well (Monsters of Faerûn). Furthermore lets not discard sheer amount of Player Options to make a "Dragon character" more viable in 3E. Least we wouldn't have "Races of the Dragon", "Draconomicon", and "Dragon Magic" supplements plus Dragon-based classes and Prestige Classes throughtout the edition. All of which depects player options on playing a dragon.
So yea, I'm basing my belief that people like playing dragon-style character for various reasons and that's no exception when using the Realms as a setting. Sure they could've used a dozen or so reasons Dragonborn have emerged stronger during the Spellplague but then they'd have no reason to be rid of that awful, mis-managed area known as Mulhorand :P.
Well a ritual that *could* create a Dragonborn is somewhat less invasive than landing a nation AND a continent filled with them into a known world. They did a better job with Thieflings IMO.
And they could just bring them in as an exploration fleet from Zakhara or whathever the Dragonborn could be living without anyone noticing before and landing in Firedrake bay on shores of Weldath (pretty empty there), Dambrath, or wherever. One local event, no need to nuke anything because of that. Dragonborn could be a byproduct of Cult of the Dragon experiments or even remnants of divine army sent to war against Tiamat in Unther if you wanted to add them inland.
3E Canon did offer a way to get some dragonborn into your Realms, but it didn’t work with them by default IMO. I also don’t see any reason to have EVERYTHING in EVERY WORLD in EVERY PART of that world, not even the Realms. They could have made just an exploration book about a different part of the world and be done with it. Do I need to have Warforged in Dark Sun? No. Can I bring them in? Well yes, I can. Being handled an option to add something if I want it is much better than saying that if I want the world as I’ve known it for X years I should get books no longer in print, or PDFs you’ve ceased to sell (without revoking the the fact that their distribution is illegal), otherwise I’m stuck with whatever you’re currently publishing.
First, again, since I've mentioned the setting thing up above, I'll just point at that for that side of this whole argumentation.
Second, I'm again, agreeing with Zmar: it's weak that they both refuse to publish, refuse to create legal PDFs, and revoke distribution via another company. That's hoarding... you know, like the tenets that Tiamat tells you to do. It's just not justifiable in the days of electronic publications and print-free documentation.
Third, I'll agree with Diffan in that dragonborn (by 4E definition) were always (well, for a good amount of time) a part of FR canon and thus the question about purpose is relatively moot, but I'm going to agree with Zmar (and thus sieylianna) that their inclusion was rather ridiculously heavy-handed. See the first point above (which will, in turn, direct you to the top of this post in which I talk about handling a setting).
*No.
**To be honest, I don't dispute the point that rules are essential. In fact, without a good set of consistent rules, the world itself crumbles, which is kind of the ultimate argument of this thread. Still, simply publishing rules isn't enough for a company to live off of. When someone buys an expensive book (such as the rules are), barring gross mismanagement, or accident, they tend to keep them in good or at least effectively working condition for as long as possible. That nets a sale of roughly one-book-per-person, or maaaaaayyyyybe two. While that is a very good and important thing, and even the fundamental base of the business, that's not consistent enough (unless, unlike PnP RPGs, a market is expanding exponentially) to run a company on, which means that's not enough to pay employees so that they and/or their families can eat. Thus, the setting(s) has to come into play. Without a powerful setting they can publish for, the game dies. It is those fans of a setting who pour money into it that allow a company to thrive, to publish new rules (or new copies of the old) so that others can purchase it. Think of it like creating a foundation, either terrific or terrible (the rules sold) and then building the much-more-mutable house (the setting) on top of said foundation (the foundation). A house can be completely rearranged... to the point that it doesn't even look like the same house (I know: my father-in-law has done this with both homes I've known him to live in), but without a solid foundation, that house can't be built. The analogy has its weak points, but it gets the basic idea across: they must sell the rules to start with, but they need to sell the setting(s) to continue.
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*Ok personal pet peeve* Please tell me you mispelled his name on purpose. It's spelled Drizzt and has been for the last 20+ years.
Well the original spelling was Driz'zt. But that is fine, spelling now can stay Drizzt. Still, go ahead and try to pronounce it. I Still here different pronunciations of it.
My pet peave is Drow pronounced like a bow and arrow. I have always pronounced it as bow being the front of a boat. Drives me as crazy as people from the west saying Soda is Pop. Can I have a POP? <Punch>
I think you meant "hear".
My personal pet peeve is that the international language of choice, namely English, has no clear rule for reading it whatsoever. Words with complete different spelling are pronounced the same way and viceversa the same letters or combinations of letters change sounds without any possible explanation.
I didn't even know that "bow" and "bow" could be pronounced differently.
Worse still, those non-existent rules are often applied when reading foreign words, with awful results. I really like that in FR, the pronounciation of gods is reported, so that let's say, "Selune" has a sound resemblance of the original "Selene" and not the English mockery of it.
I had lost most of my interest in the Forgotten Realms well before 4E came out. The two main reasons are the overuse of iconic characters and supposedly world changing events that when all was said and done had actually changed next to nothing. Like most things with 4E, the seeds of what they did with 4E FR can be found in how they handled it during the 3.5 era.
Drizzt was a fine enough character within the scope of his original stories, but the concept of him showing up anywhere and everywhere for the sake of selling the story was a bit silly. Elminster at least made sense in that capacity, and for the most part, he really didn't bother me, but the idea of a ranger that could barely do magic of his own, and nothing teleport related, randomly showing up where ever just because really didn't work for me.
The spell plague was another example of a good idea with poor execution. It was just another "world changing" event that remarkably left the key parts of the world mostly intact. I don't mind true world changing events every once in while, but just in the time I've aware of FR, they had at least two such events before the spell plague, and all they did was provide some excitement before the Realms returned to business as normal. At least the spell plague did make some impossible to completely ignore changes, though I still think keeping most of the areas that actually used magic the most virtually untouched was a major copout that just ended up taking away from the changes that were made.
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My pet peave is Drow pronounced like a bow and arrow. I have always pronounced it as bow being the front of a boat. Drives me as crazy as people from the west saying Soda is Pop. Can I have a POP? <Punch>
I, and most everyone I game with DO pronounce it Drow (sounds like 'go')
Making it sound like 'cow' drives ME equally crazy! :)
FYI, I was at a D&D camp back in the 80's and Frank Mentzer was the guess of honor. I actually asked him how he and the folks at TSR said it ...
He told me about half said it like 'cow' and half said it like 'go'.
OH well, you say Drow, I'll say Drow and we'll just have to part as friends! :)
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If you look at Black Diamond Games's Quest for Fun blog, he lists the top dozen RPG sellers this year. Palladium is on it. Posthuman Studios is on it. Indie Press revolution is on it. White Wolf is too small to list.I'm going to employ the "DDI defense" here and say that BDG's blog is based purely on brick and mortar sales and it does not reflect digital stuff. And for WW the digital side of the business is even more important than to WotC and Paizo, i'd say, because:
a) many of their books are PDF-only
b) There's the Onebookshelf (DrivethruRPG) which was established by White Wolf folks (not sure who's the owner currently), which carries their entire back catalog of oWoD products.
And my argument is that DrivethruRPG has only a fraction of the potential customer base that all the game stores across the world do. Maybe someday print on demand and PDF will be a major force in the industry. But not having visibility in stores means that they aren't gaining any new customers. I know plenty of gamers that never buy PDFs. They browse the local stores. At my local game store there used to be an entire shelf of WoD books. Since practically nothing has come out in print this year, it is slowly dwindling. Being replaced by 4E product as Pathfinder slowly fills up what used to be the D&D shelf.
White Wolf has a powerful property. With the popularity of things like Dresden Files, Eclipse, True Blood, and all the other supernatural stuff, they should be a strong presence in the industry. Even if you don't think they can beat D&D, Pathfinder, and the 40k RPGs, they should be able to hold a solid 4th place.
But they've been gutted by their owners and are just treading water to keep the trademarks protected while they create an MMO. I don't know how well the MMO will do, but I think it is sad they've let White Wolf's RPG presence wither down to be weaker than most indie games.
I say all that as a fan who wants to buy more Mage and Changeling material. I want to see more people playing it again. But until CCP sells it back to a company that wants to do RPGs, White Wolf really is just a ghost.
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I've never seen a FR product from any edition that really grabbed me.I believe that the 'best' FR supliments were actually the 2e Deities books. They had a fair amount of crunch (in the specialty priests) as well as not only the deity's history, but details on how their churches function. But YRMV of course.
I am with you on that. Faith&Avatars was so detailed and had so much great infos about the churches, the customs, the clothing and the teaching.
The loss of the Realms Panteon was the biggest loss for me when we changed to Golarion
Drizzt was a fine enough character within the scope of his original stories, but the concept of him showing up anywhere and everywhere for the sake of selling the story was a bit silly. Elminster at least made sense in that capacity, and for the most part, he really didn't bother me, but the idea of a ranger that could barely do magic of his own, and nothing teleport related, randomly showing up where ever just because really didn't work for me.
I actually don't understand your point, as I've never seen him do (in what books I've read) anything remotely bizarre or unexplained. The worst (sort of) version of that I've seen was when he went on a boat one time down to Calimshan to rescue Regis and they had a few "good adventures" doing things like doinking zombies on the beach. I've just not run into the kind of thing you're describing, though.
The spell plague was another example of a good idea with poor execution. It was just another "world changing" event that remarkably left the key parts of the world mostly intact. I don't mind true world changing events every once in while, but just in the time I've aware of FR, they had at least two such events before the spell plague, and all they did was provide some excitement before the Realms returned to business as normal. At least the spell plague did make some impossible to completely ignore changes, though I still think keeping most of the areas that actually used magic the most virtually untouched was a major copout that just ended up taking away from the changes that were made.
Again, I both agree and disagree with you. In the most part, I agree - I think you make an excellent point about the potential and waste of the spellplague. But it was horridly executed. Magic-heavy places were left unscathed, even while the insinuation was that they were supposed to be the hardest hit is a perfect example. That said, those super-powered iconic characters (such as the Chosen) were kind of like the background gardeners of the setting and one of the reasons that it worked as well as it did and stayed as static as it managed to throughout the changes. Drizzt was not one of those super-powered ones (... supposedly), so I'm still kind of unsure how he managed to survive. Much of that stability was what made the setting the setting. The fact that it went from 2E to 3.XE is a pretty major deal. Plus, they even provided rules for Netheril so that people could play back in that day and era, which was, again, a fairly substantial change from the 2E era.
The major events did have impact, and I'm okay with that. I may not like every change made, but it makes sense within its own context. In 4E's case, however, it was botched pretty badly from multiple different angles.
One thing I will say that the 3.X era kind of muddied the waters with was the planes. Whereas in the 2E era, unless I'm mistaken, the Realms were part of the greater Planescape setting (the Great Wheel), thus tying in all of D&D's properties together (a move that I think they were mistaken in making, and they seem to be doing again), in 3.X, suddenly those planes were all completely different things, only tangentially connected to the Great Wheel planes, at best. I do think that it was a good move, I just also think that it's something the setting should have had from the beginning.
It's telling, to me, that when Ed Greenwood wrote the Drow in his own novels (such as not connected to the FR setting, such as Dark Warrior Rising) there was no mention of Lolth anywhere: instead there were two divinities, one that could only be called "evil Sune" (obsession with beauty and physical perfection without the compassion or kindness - little as they are - that Sune shows) and the other some abstract worship of a massive ice flow beneath the earth. I suspect that this, or something else very different from what we got, was Greenwood's earliest ideas for the setting, before it was kludged together with gods and planes from the rest of the D&D line. So, you know, Retcon-Punching is kind of a part of the setting. :)
I just happen to think it was botched spectacularly and in most every way with 4E.
NOTE: I'm not saying that I didn't like Lolth's presence in FR - it was very iconic and became of central importance very quickly to the setting. I'm just saying that it was kind of a stretch to tie FR to the rest of the line. That's one of the many reasons I like Eberron... it's so separate and so distinct because of it.
My pet peave is Drow pronounced like a bow and arrow. I have always pronounced it as bow being the front of a boat. Drives me as crazy as people from the west saying Soda is Pop. Can I have a POP? <Punch>I, and most everyone I game with DO pronounce it Drow (sounds like 'go')
Making it sound like 'cow' drives ME equally crazy! :)
FYI, I was at a D&D camp back in the 80's and Frank Mentzer was the guess of honor. I actually asked him how he and the folks at TSR said it ...
He told me about half said it like 'cow' and half said it like 'go'.
OH well, you say Drow, I'll say Drow and we'll just have to part as friends! :)
Fair enough!
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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One thing I will say that the 3.X era kind of muddied the waters with was the planes. Whereas in the 2E era, unless I'm mistaken, the Realms were part of the greater Planescape setting (the Great Wheel), thus tying in all of D&D's properties together (a move that I think they were mistaken in making, and they seem to be doing again), in 3.X, suddenly those planes were all completely different things, only tangentially connected to the Great Wheel planes, at best. I do think that it was a good move, I just also think that it's something the setting should have had from the beginning.
I'd not mind it so much if it had been divine perception.
For example, Waukeen, Takhiss* and Boccob are sitting having tea. Waukeen talks about the tree of life, and hiding in the roots of the Abyss during the Godswar while Boccob looks at her strangely. He in turn talks about the great wheel, suggesting she hide in the South West side of the corner in the Abyss. Takhiss then suggests that while she's there, she come visit her. They're talking about the same outer planes, but they all see them differently.
*