Our GM has voiced some concerns regarding the high Armor Class of our summoner's eidolon. The party just hit 5th level and the player mentioned that, with mage armor, shield, and its ring of deflection +2, his quadruped could hit AC 32. The GM sent me an e-mail asking me to clarify this for him because he now believes a 20th level fighter or barbarian would require a 20 to hit the eidolon. I think our GM is overstating his case but the player has already agreed to give the ring of deflection to another PC.
What suggestions would make to the GM and the summoner's player so that both can continue to have fun? Our group is fairly new to Pathfinder (but not D&D; most of us have experience that dates back to 1E). So far I've come up with: gentleman's agreement to use only mage armor unless events go south, target the creature's touch AC, and ignore the eidolon in favor of squishier targets (including the summoner).
well shield is only minutes per level so good luck keeping it up all day. Yeah summoners can be a b~*+& though if the player likes to cheese it up. Not really sure on exactly what i would do to handle it if talking to the guy wouldnt help.
Well mage armor provides a armor bonus, so it doesn't stack with the armor bonus of the eidolon.
The text indicates that "This bonus may be split between an armor bonus and a natural armor bonus, as decided by the summoner." I think that the player has opted for the natural armor bonus.
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Without seeing the full build, it's hard to say if he's calculated it correctly.
What we know we can count on, is the following;
Base = 10
Quadruped Base nat armor = +2 nat
Base Dex from form 14 = +2 dodge
Improved Dex+2 from level 5 = +1 dodge
Level 5 Armor bonus (from table) = +4 nat
Mage Armor = +4 armor
Shield = +4 shield
ring of deflection = +2 deflection
Total = AC 29
The rest is down to the specific build, but possibilities include;
+1 Dex from fourth Hit Die (no benefit on its own)
Improved Natural Armor (1 evolution point) +2 natural, able to be taken twice at level 5.
Ability Increase (Dex) (2 evolution points) +1 dodge, only eligible once.
If made Small, +1 dodge AC from Dex, +1 size bonus to AC.
If made Large size, AC would drop by 2 (-1 for dex, -1 for size).
So, a Small eidolon could easily reach AC 36, before you consider other buffs, such as Cats Grace, Haste, etc.
Add two feats, which could also improve AC, in general (Dodge) or situational (Mobility).
So, as in all these threads, the answer is; post the build, then we'll address the specifics.
Note, that if he did take the Dex increase, and two instances of Improved Natural Armor, that costs 4 of his total 8 evolution pool, which doesn't leave much for anything else.
Without seeing the full build, it's hard to say if he's calculated it correctly.
What we know we can count on, is the following;
Base = 10
Quadruped Base nat armor = +2 nat
Base Dex from form 14 = +2 dodge
Improved Dex+2 from level 5 = +1 dodge
Level 5 Armor bonus (from table) = +4 nat
Mage Armor = +4 armor
Shield = +4 shield
ring of deflection = +2 deflectionTotal = AC 29
The rest is down to the specific build, but possibilities include;
+1 Dex from fourth Hit Die (no benefit on its own)
Improved Natural Armor (1 evolution point) +2 natural, able to be taken twice at level 5.
Ability Increase (Dex) (2 evolution points) +1 dodge, only eligible once.If made Small, +1 dodge AC from Dex, +1 size bonus to AC.
If made Large size, AC would drop by 2 (-1 for dex, -1 for size).
So, a Small eidolon could easily reach AC 36, before you consider other buffs, such as Cats Grace, Haste, etc.
Add two feats, which could also improve AC, in general (Dodge) or situational (Mobility).
So, as in all these threads, the answer is; post the build, then we'll address the specifics.
Note, that if he did take the Dex increase, and two instances of Improved Natural Armor, that costs 4 of his total 8 evolution pool, which doesn't leave much for anything else.
Thanks for your reply. I don't have the eidolon's specific build but this is what I've pieced together: The summoner is half-elf and has chosen the favored class option of adding +1/4 to the eidolon's evolution pool at each level. The summoner has haste on his spell list. The eidolon is medium-sized. I'm pretty sure he's taken Improved Natural Armor twice. It seems reasonable that he's taken +1 Dex from the fourth Hit Dice and devoted 2 points to Ability Increase (Dex). There's been no mention of Dodge or Mobility.
So the takeaway is that AC 32 (+/- a couple of points) is readily achieved with some forethought and smart reource allocation. Good to know.
I should also note that the eidolon's been killed twice in regular melee---once from a lucky crit and the other when surrounded by a group of skeletons. It hasn't been invincible. The AC 32 (or 30, I guess, since he passed along the ring of deflection) version hasn't hit the field yet so I don't know how much merit to give to the GM's dire prediction.
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What suggestions would make to the GM and the summoner's player so that both can continue to have fun? Our group is fairly new to Pathfinder (but not D&D; most of us have experience that dates back to 1E). So far I've come up with: gentleman's agreement to use only mage armor unless events go south, target the creature's touch AC, and ignore the eidolon in favor of squishier targets (including the summoner).
Assuming the eidolon has been built legally (and I've no reason to suspect it hasn't, given the breakdown above), a lot of this comes down to how your group typically handles the description of combat.
A bland "I rolled 22". "Miss". "I rolled 25". "Miss", is going to frustrate players and GM, as it's difficult to visualise what's happening, why your attacks are failing, and build a strategy against it.
When giving the commentary, I tend to visualise the various AC bonus types, hindering the incoming attack (ie adding to the AC total), from the outside inwards.
Dodge bonuses imply the attack missed completely, hitting the space the target just left. Deflection/divine/sacred/profane are next, as 'forcefields' turn the blade to one side. Armor interposes the blows that still land on target, taking the energy from it, natural armor comes last, cushioning whatever gets through the rest.
So if the enemy rolls poorly (less than AC 10+dodge), you'd describe it as swinging through thin air. That alone is enough to clue someone that they're dealing with a highly mobile foe.
If they roll high enough to match AC (10+dodge), but not enough to break AC (10+dodge+deflection), describe it as their weapon quivering in their grasp, sending the blade an inch to one side.
If they roll higher than that, but less than AC (10+dodge+deflection+shield), describe it as such. A flash of octarine sparks erupt from the air, briefly outlining a shimmering disk.
And so on.
All the way up to a hit being described as forcing one's way past all those defences, finally getting the tip of your blade under the gap in the beast's scales.
How does this help?
Well, it makes it much clearer to opponents, when magical defences are being used, and they can react to that information accordingly.
That eidolon in the original post has at least 10 of its AC derived from sources outside of its body.
Opponents should be able to detect this, after a few misses in the AC 15-25 range, and will call this out to their allies, who will alter their tactics.
Ranged touch attacks, Will saves, energy bursts, all these bypass much of the target's AC, but by describing the effects of the defences on incoming attacks, you show how they made that decision in-character, and avoid the charge of abusing GM knowledge to target their weak points.
What they shouldn't do, is dumbly keep swinging away, comparing flat numbers to flat target DCs, and not realising why nothing is happening, while the eidolon takes them apart.
And none of this is specifically about eidolons, but something that's a good idea in principle, as it makes the combats seem more real.
This applies both ways, of course, and the GM should be acting as the PCs' eyes and ears, so they don't get bogged down in tedious fights they can't win.
I'd say that the eidolon having high (not outstanding) AC isn't a big problem in itself. If it's got high attack too on the other hand, it can be an issue. What's it's saving throws, CMD, and attacks? You know, a fly in plate mail also have a high AC, but if you aren't a threat, that's not going to do very much.
What suggestions would make to the GM and the summoner's player so that both can continue to have fun? Our group is fairly new to Pathfinder (but not D&D; most of us have experience that dates back to 1E). So far I've come up with: gentleman's agreement to use only mage armor unless events go south, target the creature's touch AC, and ignore the eidolon in favor of squishier targets (including the summoner).Assuming the eidolon has been built legally (and I've no reason to suspect it hasn't, given the breakdown above), a lot of this comes down to how your group typically handles the description of combat.
A bland "I rolled 22". "Miss". "I rolled 25". "Miss", is going to frustrate players and GM, as it's difficult to visualise what's happening, why your attacks are failing, and build a strategy against it.
When giving the commentary, I tend to visualise the various AC bonus types, hindering the incoming attack (ie adding to the AC total), from the outside inwards.
Dodge bonuses imply the attack missed completely, hitting the space the target just left. Deflection/divine/sacred/profane are next, as 'forcefields' turn the blade to one side. Armor interposes the blows that still land on target, taking the energy from it, natural armor comes last, cushioning whatever gets through the rest.
So if the enemy rolls poorly (less than AC 10+dodge), you'd describe it as swinging through thin air. That alone is enough to clue someone that they're dealing with a highly mobile foe.
If they roll high enough to match AC (10+dodge), but not enough to break AC (10+dodge+deflection), describe it as their weapon quivering in their grasp, sending the blade an inch to one side.
If they roll higher than that, but less than AC (10+dodge+deflection+shield), describe it as such. A flash of octarine sparks erupt from the air, briefly outlining a shimmering disk.
And so on.
All the way up to a hit being described as forcing one's way past all those defences, finally getting the...
That's the way it should always be played.
wait...what are level 5 characters doing with a +2 ring of protection? Thats worth almost the entirety of a 5th level character's wealth.
That said, it would seem the summoner invested alot into the eidolon's AC with defensive bonuses and feats and the use of their spells (as demonstrated by snorter's breakdown).
A fighter with +1 full plate, a 14 dex (which due to armor training he gets to apply to ac at 5th level, a +1 heavy shield, and dodge and sheild focus is 27 without buffs and thus all the time, even when the party doesnt have rounds to prepare. If they do, and he gets a barkskin or a sheild of faith, he will be right up there with that eidolon when it is buffed.
Note that the eidolon's CMD should be something like 10 + 3 dex + 2 deflection (ring) + 3 bab + 3 str plus potentially 2-3 more depending on build. So the CMD should be around 23-24, far easier to beat than an AC of 32.
The summoner himself is the soft underbelly of the eidolon. In order for the eidolon to use that ring, the summoner has to give up use of that slot for himself.
The player is aware that he and the eidolon share slots.
What suggestions would make to the GM and the summoner's player so that both can continue to have fun? Our group is fairly new to Pathfinder (but not D&D; most of us have experience that dates back to 1E). So far I've come up with: gentleman's agreement to use only mage armor unless events go south, target the creature's touch AC, and ignore the eidolon in favor of squishier targets (including the summoner).Assuming the eidolon has been built legally (and I've no reason to suspect it hasn't, given the breakdown above), a lot of this comes down to how your group typically handles the description of combat.
A bland "I rolled 22". "Miss". "I rolled 25". "Miss", is going to frustrate players and GM, as it's difficult to visualise what's happening, why your attacks are failing, and build a strategy against it.
When giving the commentary, I tend to visualise the various AC bonus types, hindering the incoming attack (ie adding to the AC total), from the outside inwards.
Dodge bonuses imply the attack missed completely, hitting the space the target just left. Deflection/divine/sacred/profane are next, as 'forcefields' turn the blade to one side. Armor interposes the blows that still land on target, taking the energy from it, natural armor comes last, cushioning whatever gets through the rest.
So if the enemy rolls poorly (less than AC 10+dodge), you'd describe it as swinging through thin air. That alone is enough to clue someone that they're dealing with a highly mobile foe.
If they roll high enough to match AC (10+dodge), but not enough to break AC (10+dodge+deflection), describe it as their weapon quivering in their grasp, sending the blade an inch to one side.
If they roll higher than that, but less than AC (10+dodge+deflection+shield), describe it as such. A flash of octarine sparks erupt from the air, briefly outlining a shimmering disk.
And so on.
All the way up to a hit being described as forcing one's way past all those defences, finally getting the...
I'm glad you mentioned this. Combat descriptions are somewhat generic. Much of the time it comes down to the PCs charging the enemy hordes (and vice versa) and then rolling dice until someone drops. We use miniatures and a hex mat so a lot of attention is given to mapping out rooms and terrain and then placing the figures. We'll sometimes receive a specific detail after a combatant is killed ("the arrow pierced his eye") but rarely during the actual fight. After the last session, the GM mentioned that he's going to have to "play smarter". I'll suggest that he provide more detail mid-combat to facilitate this.
I'd say that the eidolon having high (not outstanding) AC isn't a big problem in itself. If it's got high attack too on the other hand, it can be an issue. What's it's saving throws, CMD, and attacks? You know, a fly in plate mail also have a high AC, but if you aren't a threat, that's not going to do very much.
That's a good point. My grasp of CMB and CMD is fuzzy and I doubt my GM's is much better. Definitely something to look into.
Your DM is overstating his case substantially.
First off, a level 20 fighter would be at a minimum of +20/+15/+10/+5 iterative attacks. One of those hits on a 12, the next on a 17. If he's level 20 and doesn't have a magic weapon and ability bonus, then he's just about the worst fighter in existence, and frankly your DM needs to sit down and really think about how he makes NPCs.
That's kinda what I was thinking. Like I mentioned, most of us have played earlier editions. I'm sure some of the habits we've developed during that time don't translate well into Pathfinder.
It is comparatively common in the games I've played in to see a fifth level character who is specialized in melee having a +11 to +13 on their to hit rolls, on their own. Tack on a few buffs from party members, potions, and the like, and these numbers can easily approach 20. Your average CR5 enemy appears to be somewhere around +11 as well.
Good point. Most of the PCs still have attack bonuses in the single digits. Except for our zen archer, who can inflict mad DPR.
Overall, if the eidolon has died twice already, then you DM has probably doesn't need to worry... He's figured out ways to deal with it that keep it from hogging the spotlight too much, and it sounds like the player is attempting to compensate for how easily it has been taken down in the past.
I'm guessing you recently gained a level and he's retooled it, given that you said the AC 30 version hasn't hit the field yet? Rebuilding to counter previous threats is a natural thing for a summoner to do, but it's also an backwards looking strategy; it relies upon the belief that because a GM has previously thrown X type of specialized Enemy against the party, he will continue to do so.
Overall, all the advice you've already given your GM is good advice to countering this, but I'll include a few other bits as well.
-Target the Eidolon's bad saves: They're not that high yet, and some of them can be particularly damning if he's successful. A quadruped has a bad will save, and the eidolon doesn't pick up Devotion until the summoner hits level 6. If the summoner hasn't bought up the will of the eidolon, it has a grand total of +1 to it's Will Saves. If it gets taken over and turned on the party just once, even if only for a single round before the summoner dismisses it, it should (given...
Throughout this campaign, most of the enemy combatants have been kobolds, goblins, orcs, bugbears. We've had a couple of encounters skeletons and wights. Most recently, we fought werewolves, which the eidolon couldn't hurt (DR 10/silver) and, now that I think about, did manage to drop him. Enemy spellcasters have been rare. We've seen one arcane caster who used Charm Person (to no success) and two or three evil clerics who spammed channel energy (killing some of their own minions but seriously hurting us in the process).
wait...what are level 5 characters doing with a +2 ring of protection? Thats worth almost the entirety of a 5th level character's wealth.
That said, it would seem the summoner invested alot into the eidolon's AC with defensive bonuses and feats and the use of their spells (as demonstrated by snorter's breakdown).
A fighter with +1 full plate, a 14 dex (which due to armor training he gets to apply to ac at 5th level, a +1 heavy shield, and dodge and sheild focus is 27 without buffs and thus all the time, even when the party doesnt have rounds to prepare. If they do, and he gets a barkskin or a sheild of faith, he will be right up there with that eidolon when it is buffed.
I don't think the GM's using the wealth by level chart. Our party has six members (not including the eidolon) and there are three rings of deflection +2 floating around. My character has a brass horn of valhalla, a chime of opening (never used), and CL 17 scroll with 2-1st and 2-2nd level spells that I don't have a prayer of using. Most of us *just* picked up +1 weapons and +1 armor. Yeah, overall wealth is skewed.
One other campaign specific detail is that there are no two-handed weapons, heavy armor, or composite bows. Lots of magic items but those other things don't exist. It's a fluff thing.
Additionally, if your DM wants a specific build that is easily capable of pimp handing this eidolon out of existence, he might want to look at the Magus.
A spell combating magus at 4th or 5th level who is smart enough to not use spell strike due to the high AC of the Eidolon should be able to drop it within two combat rounds, without any difficulty.
He doesn't want to ruin the player's fun. I think he's looking for tactics and general suggestions. Even suggestions of types of monsters from the Beastiary. I do think he's going to have to start using more magic in general to keep pace with the group's capabilities.
wait...what are level 5 characters doing with a +2 ring of protection? Thats worth almost the entirety of a 5th level character's wealth.
That said, it would seem the summoner invested alot into the eidolon's AC with defensive bonuses and feats and the use of their spells (as demonstrated by snorter's breakdown).
A fighter with +1 full plate, a 14 dex (which due to armor training he gets to apply to ac at 5th level, a +1 heavy shield, and dodge and sheild focus is 27 without buffs and thus all the time, even when the party doesnt have rounds to prepare. If they do, and he gets a barkskin or a sheild of faith, he will be right up there with that eidolon when it is buffed.
I don't think the GM's using the wealth by level chart. Our party has six members (not including the eidolon) and there are three rings of deflection +2 floating around. My character has a brass horn of valhalla, a chime of opening (never used), and CL 17 scroll with 2-1st and 2-2nd level spells that I don't have a prayer of using. Most of us *just* picked up +1 weapons and +1 armor. Yeah, overall wealth is skewed.
One other campaign specific detail is that there are no two-handed weapons, heavy armor, or composite bows. Lots of magic items but those other things don't exist. It's a fluff thing.
I would like to know what's the fluff behind no Two-handed weapons. The armor and composite can be based on Technology periods, but the Two-handed weapons can't. So, what's the story?
wait...what are level 5 characters doing with a +2 ring of protection? Thats worth almost the entirety of a 5th level character's wealth.
That said, it would seem the summoner invested alot into the eidolon's AC with defensive bonuses and feats and the use of their spells (as demonstrated by snorter's breakdown).
A fighter with +1 full plate, a 14 dex (which due to armor training he gets to apply to ac at 5th level, a +1 heavy shield, and dodge and sheild focus is 27 without buffs and thus all the time, even when the party doesnt have rounds to prepare. If they do, and he gets a barkskin or a sheild of faith, he will be right up there with that eidolon when it is buffed.
I don't think the GM's using the wealth by level chart. Our party has six members (not including the eidolon) and there are three rings of deflection +2 floating around. My character has a brass horn of valhalla, a chime of opening (never used), and CL 17 scroll with 2-1st and 2-2nd level spells that I don't have a prayer of using. Most of us *just* picked up +1 weapons and +1 armor. Yeah, overall wealth is skewed.
One other campaign specific detail is that there are no two-handed weapons, heavy armor, or composite bows. Lots of magic items but those other things don't exist. It's a fluff thing.
Well if he is going be erratic about wealth and magic items, balance is bound to be skewed. Thats not the eidolon's fault, it just benefits the most from his changes to the base assumptions of the game.
I would like to know what's the fluff behind no Two-handed weapons. The armor and composite can be based on Technology periods, but the Two-handed weapons can't. So, what's the story?wait...what are level 5 characters doing with a +2 ring of protection? Thats worth almost the entirety of a 5th level character's wealth.
That said, it would seem the summoner invested alot into the eidolon's AC with defensive bonuses and feats and the use of their spells (as demonstrated by snorter's breakdown).
A fighter with +1 full plate, a 14 dex (which due to armor training he gets to apply to ac at 5th level, a +1 heavy shield, and dodge and sheild focus is 27 without buffs and thus all the time, even when the party doesnt have rounds to prepare. If they do, and he gets a barkskin or a sheild of faith, he will be right up there with that eidolon when it is buffed.
I don't think the GM's using the wealth by level chart. Our party has six members (not including the eidolon) and there are three rings of deflection +2 floating around. My character has a brass horn of valhalla, a chime of opening (never used), and CL 17 scroll with 2-1st and 2-2nd level spells that I don't have a prayer of using. Most of us *just* picked up +1 weapons and +1 armor. Yeah, overall wealth is skewed.
One other campaign specific detail is that there are no two-handed weapons, heavy armor, or composite bows. Lots of magic items but those other things don't exist. It's a fluff thing.
Not sure. I assumed it was lack of know-how like the armor and bows. Honestly, it was probably just meant to limit damage output.
As far as specific monsters that will be rather useful here...
-Gibbering Mouther (CR 5) Comes complete with a spitting attack that blinds targets. Even eidolons aren't very dangerous once they're blinded.
-Large Elementals (CR 5 or so): Any type works here. Elementals tend to have very nice attack bonuses (+12 to +15), and multiple attacks at this point, as well as nifty little add ons.
-Army Ant Swarms (CR 5): These things are nasty to face off against. Once they get on the eidolon, they simply inflict automatic damage until it manages to get them all off (requires a full round action AND a successful save to happen). And then more of them can get on it again.
-Basilisk (CR 5): Yes, the Eidolon can be turned to stone.
-Wraiths (CR 5): Constitution draining touch attacks and incorporeal? The Eidolon is helpless (Warning: The rest of your party might be as well).
-Ice Golem (CR 5): Not as directly damaging against the eidolon as any of the others, since it has a lower attack bonus, but it does have an area affecting breath weapon that might deal some damage... oh, and since the eidolon uses natural weapons to fight, it takes automatic cold damage every time it hits the golem. And then there's the explosion when it dies.
-Rast (CR 5): Again, a wonderful little gaze attack that inflicts paralysis this time, rather than turning it to stone.
-Salamander (CR 6): Similar to the Ice Golem, but with the change to doing fire and allowing for constriction abilities and stuff.
-Seugathi (CR 6): Aura of confusion based on the weak will saves of the Eidolon, and the Seugathi gets to command a confused creature each round. Yeah, that will make the party freightened.
Also, your GM might want to consider some of the Templates for applying to enemies that go after the Eidolon.
-The Advanced Template can move most creatures that weren't good threats up to being ones (+2 to their attack rolls when it's applied, and raises the DCs of any special abilities the eidolon would have had to...
Oooo, army ant swarms look nasty. My character still cringes at the thought of the giant ants the party faced. Good suggestions all. Thank you.
Not sure. I assumed it was lack of know-how like the armor and bows. Honestly, it was probably just meant to limit damage output.I would like to know what's the fluff behind no Two-handed weapons. The armor and composite can be based on Technology periods, but the Two-handed weapons can't. So, what's the story?wait...what are level 5 characters doing with a +2 ring of protection? Thats worth almost the entirety of a 5th level character's wealth.
That said, it would seem the summoner invested alot into the eidolon's AC with defensive bonuses and feats and the use of their spells (as demonstrated by snorter's breakdown).
A fighter with +1 full plate, a 14 dex (which due to armor training he gets to apply to ac at 5th level, a +1 heavy shield, and dodge and sheild focus is 27 without buffs and thus all the time, even when the party doesnt have rounds to prepare. If they do, and he gets a barkskin or a sheild of faith, he will be right up there with that eidolon when it is buffed.
I don't think the GM's using the wealth by level chart. Our party has six members (not including the eidolon) and there are three rings of deflection +2 floating around. My character has a brass horn of valhalla, a chime of opening (never used), and CL 17 scroll with 2-1st and 2-2nd level spells that I don't have a prayer of using. Most of us *just* picked up +1 weapons and +1 armor. Yeah, overall wealth is skewed.
One other campaign specific detail is that there are no two-handed weapons, heavy armor, or composite bows. Lots of magic items but those other things don't exist. It's a fluff thing.
Well, too bad. I completely disagree with that, Two-Handed weapons were the first kinda weapons to be invented (Spears for hunting) and using this kinda of DM fiat just because of damage output is REALLY bad form... but, it's your game, not much I can do. If he comes up with a better explanation (doubt it) please, let me know, I'm curious.
You can still use one handed weapons 2-handed at least, right?About the Eidolon problem
From the Rules:
The eidolon cannot be sent back to its home plane by means of dispel magic, but spells such as dismissal and banishment work normally.
That's a REALLY important line that most people forget, or ignore.