Yes it does. You are indeed incorrect here, archetypes do not work that way and the writeup even says what level you may take a power at.
I am done here on this, misuse it as you will.
He is right about this part though, considering the vanilla monks powers are already in the list it would make no sense for you to be able to have them anyway.
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He is right about this part though, considering the vanilla monks powers are already in the list it would make no sense for you to be able to have them anyway.Yes it does. You are indeed incorrect here, archetypes do not work that way and the writeup even says what level you may take a power at.
I am done here on this, misuse it as you will.
Sigh.. Quiggong Monk
Argument done..scroll down to table, notice parenthesis
Sigh.. Quiggong Monk
Argument done..scroll down to table, notice parenthesis
I'm going to assume those mean it is optional, but I am going to be honest I can't find what the parenthesis mean. Failed my perception check.
It does however beg the question of why they put the powers in the table then.
Sigh.. Quiggong Monk
Argument done..scroll down to table, notice parenthesis
I'm going to assume those mean it is optional, but I am going to be honest I can't find what the parenthesis mean. Failed my perception check.
It does however beg the question of why they put the powers in the table then.
At the bottom of the table the symbols are defined: "X=replaced, (X)=Optional replacement, C=changed".
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Sigh.. Quiggong Monk
Argument done..scroll down to table, notice parenthesis
I'm going to assume those mean it is optional, but I am going to be honest I can't find what the parenthesis mean. Failed my perception check.
It does however beg the question of why they put the powers in the table then.
In a little box at the very bottom of the chart it has what the markings mean, in said box it puts.... (x) optional ..
Powers make it where if you DID trade out a monk ability you could get it back but it would be a power instead of the regular ability and therefore cost ki.. is all.
Yes it does. You are indeed incorrect here, archetypes do not work that way and the writeup even says what level you may take a power at.
I am done here on this, misuse it as you will.
Feel free to house rule it any way you like. ;)
Oh I had to refresh. that didn't load xD
Wait it costs extra Ki then usual if you get them as a power? I thought it all looked the same. 1 for high jump, 2 for wholeness of body and abundant step, seems the same.
Yes it does. You are indeed incorrect here, archetypes do not work that way and the writeup even says what level you may take a power at.
I am done here on this, misuse it as you will.
You are infuriating, in that you continue to make faulty arguments and refuse to listen to the other side of arguments, simply repeating your broken, circular logic. There is a reason that you hold the unpopular point of view here (in both cases); as it turns out, the majority tends to be a majority for good reason, no matter how highly-touted individuality is. Being "different" is wholly distinct from being "wrong." Worse still, you have demonstrated multiple times a stubborn refusal to even acknowledge the *possibility* that your thoughts on a given matter are harsh, narrow-minded, or incorrect, or that those who disagree with you could have ANY point or value in what they are saying whatsoever.
However. I will not allow myself to become furious, even at the infuriating, over something as trivial to the scheme of my life as all this, and I will leave, hoping that the social skills you have demonstrated on these boards will continue to serve you as well as they no doubt have throughout your life.
It is possible, likely, even, that the indictments I make will not have any effect on you, as you may not see where I get the information to draw such conclusions. For that matter, I hope that I am making a faulty set of claims here, and that this is one of few rare instances where you carry yourself in an unreasonable manner such as this; not just for the sake of your life in general, but because I'd rather not have any qualms between you and I extend any further than this post, rather than having to continue this argument in every other thread I see you in.
Have a pleasant evening.
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Oh I had to refresh. that didn't load xD
Wait it costs extra Ki then usual if you get them as a power? I thought it all looked the same. 1 for high jump, 2 for wholeness of body and abundant step, seems the same.
LOL, your right, hehe, but anyway the problem is solved and the argument won..To WAFFLES!
LOL, your right, hehe, but anyway the problem is solved and the argument won..To WAFFLES!
Yeah, I guess they are there in case you change your mind about a power later. And I prefer pancakes.... ;D
I think most people here agree that the ninja is a slightly better fighter than the rogue. Is this just due to ninja talents though?
I was more wary of the ki pool granting an attack. Rogues/ninjas really benefit from an extra attack, a two weapon fighting ninja can get serious amount of sneak attacking attacks off in a full routine. Is this not as good as I think? Because everyone seems to be arguing about ninja tricks, but as far as combat ones go, they are few enough to pick up with the rogue talent. The only thing that bugs me is giving them a ki pool. I'd much rather they get grit, or trick points or something, thats just a flavor thing though.
I think 'Ninja' is a better name for a class than 'Fixed Rogue'. And making it a variant class instead of a normal archetype is rather convenient. Who's going to play an old rogue now anyway?
When my group started the Carrion Crown adventure I included all of the play test stuff including the ninja. Guess what? Instead of the Ninja I had a player want to roll up a Rogue. He liked a few of the abilities and would take them if there was a way to take them as rogue talents... Ultimate Combat did just that. So yes there will still be those that choose the rogue even though it is not an optimized choice for them.
No the issue is Ninja tricks, if the rogue was soooooooooooooo underpowered before it is now useless. As the Ninja can do anything it could do but more and better. All because of stolen talents and a un called for wall of ok/ super good talents rogues can not take.
You are aware that the Rogue can take Ninja tricks multiple times, right? It cannot take Master Tricks per RAW, which is unfortunate, but the Ninja can only take a Advanced Talent once, too ( since it is missing the "can take this Master Trick multiple times" part ).
LOL, your right, hehe, but anyway the problem is solved and the argument won..To WAFFLES!Oh I had to refresh. that didn't load xD
Wait it costs extra Ki then usual if you get them as a power? I thought it all looked the same. 1 for high jump, 2 for wholeness of body and abundant step, seems the same.
I have mentioned that in the UM errata thread, unfortunetely i didn't get a response but IMO i believe to be an error.
| 1 person marked this as FAQ candidate. |
He is right about this part though, considering the vanilla monks powers are already in the list it would make no sense for you to be able to have them anyway.Yes it does. You are indeed incorrect here, archetypes do not work that way and the writeup even says what level you may take a power at.
I am done here on this, misuse it as you will.
Sigh.. Quiggong Monk
Argument done..scroll down to table, notice parenthesis
First off that is NOT official. That is a chart that has been created by fans. The line is badly worded but Archetypes Do not work in that Manor. Paizo has stated time and again you can not choose not too take a replacement for any archetype. You take them all or none.
The wording says You can choose one of the list as well it is multiple choice. You do Not however gain an option of Not taking one of those options, you choose to take them by taking this Archetype.
Once you take the Archetype you have lost: slow fall (4th), high jump (5th), wholeness of body (7th), diamond body (11th), abundant step (12th), diamond soul (13th), quivering palm (15th), timeless body (17th), tongue of the sun and moon (17th), empty body (19th), and perfect self (20th). Those are now empty slots you can take any power you meet the level for, yes that means 4th and 5th must come from 4th level powers.
You may still take some of those but only at the level the archetype allows. Slow fall is lost, but you MUST be at lest 6th level before you can choose High Jump.
You are infuriating, in that you continue to make faulty arguments and refuse to listen to the other side of arguments, simply repeating your broken, circular logic.
No I am using How paizo has told us ALL archetypes work and the chart the archetype must use. Can you or anyone show me an OFFICIAL statement or at lest a quote by a staffer that says it works the way you say it does?
The chart says you must be X level to take this ki power, Paizo has stated many times all archetypes must take all replacements. People here are doing 2 things, One: Using the word can as if you had an option to skip a replacement which it does not mean. Two: Using a fan made chart that has no official backing.
Show me in the FAQ or the OFFICIAL PRD where it back you up and not me? Because I can hunt down the quotes saying how archetypes work. And I have the archetype itself saying what level you must be to take which ki power.
You are aware that the Rogue can take Ninja tricks multiple times, right? It cannot take Master Tricks per RAW, which is unfortunate, but the Ninja can only take a Advanced Talent once, too ( since it is missing the "can take this Master Trick multiple times" part ).
Do people here understand all I have said I would do is roll both talents and tricks into one list? The list wall was always my issue and stands as my issue. I see no need for it, it wastes space and limits things to "Rogue" or "Ninja" when both should have the list.
I mean I found the Ninja solid in the beta by itself and a pretty good archetype. I had issues with the tricks not being talents. Many of those talents can be 1/day or 2/day with an option to boost or extra use if ya have a ki pool. Which has been said could be taken with a talent now.
I find it a better solution then having a needless wall in place.
...Once you take the Archetype you have lost: slow fall (4th), high jump (5th), wholeness of body (7th), diamond body (11th), abundant step (12th), diamond soul (13th)...
Since this a threat about the NINJA, can we please stay on topic and stop talking about the monk? I know there were comparison issues for a bit, but seeing a full page of monk conversation on the ninja page is more than annoying....
You are aware that the Rogue can take Ninja tricks multiple times, right? It cannot take Master Tricks per RAW, which is unfortunate, but the Ninja can only take a Advanced Talent once, too ( since it is missing the "can take this Master Trick multiple times" part ).
Do people here understand all I have said I would do is roll both talents and tricks into one list? The list wall was always my issue and stands as my issue. I see no need for it, it wastes space and limits things to "Rogue" or "Ninja" when both should have the list.
I mean I found the Ninja solid in the beta by itself and a pretty good archetype. I had issues with the tricks not being talents. Many of those talents can be 1/day or 2/day with an option to boost or extra use if ya have a ki pool. Which has been said could be taken with a talent now.
I find it a better solution then having a needless wall in place.
seeker I can 100% see your reason for wanting the ninja tricks to just be on the rogue talent list, the only real reason paizo is separating them is because they wanted to put them in a class for their upcoming ap and for all the Japanese fan boys and girls. If the rogue has access to all that stuff as well then their is no issue. Now people can write ninja on their sheet open the book the whole class is there they are just getting the feeling they are playing a rogue and calling themselves a ninja, they will actual feel they are a different class. yes it is an archetype but they called it an alt class to sell the books and that is what the end game is here right, money.
now my thought is if they did just put all the ninja tricks in as rogue talents (ki) and gave a ki giving rogue talent sure it would still give a similar effect but it isnt the effect paizo wanted, they really wanted a "Ninja class" to cater to certain people, it was apparently a loud and vocal enough crowd that they got what they wanted.
I didnt want this to get lost in my above post.
can anyone who has the book give us anything else about the ninja to talk about, maybe a weapon proficiency list, there really isn't much else to talk about I guess the only real difference is the trick pool. are there any feats that are specifically for ninja, or any tricks that weren't in the playtest that people may be interested in?
I didnt want this to get lost in my above post.
can anyone who has the book give us anything else about the ninja to talk about, maybe a weapon proficiency list, there really isn't much else to talk about I guess the only real difference is the trick pool. are there any feats that are specifically for ninja, or any tricks that weren't in the playtest that people may be interested in?
Here are a few of Ninja flavored feats, if you will. Most do not require ninja class features but fit mold. Just going to generally outline them so as to not give away too much before the books release.
Adder Strike requires poison use. It allows you to deliver contact poisons through unarmed strikes.
Disorienting Maneuver requires just Dodge and Acrobatics, but its very ninja-esque. grants a bonus to attack after successfully moving through a foes threatened square.
The Disengaging Feint tree allows you to use a feint to help withdraw and evetually allows you to withdraw with a bonus free attack. Certainly a ninja thing to do.
Flanking Foil protects you from being flanked by multiple opponents as long as you can get hits offs. Kind of in the dextrous combatant vein.
Moonlight Stalker is a feat for anyone who has dark/lowlight vision (plus some other prereqs), but grants you bonus damage against foes for whom you have concealment against.
Ooooooo Sneaking Precision, require sneak attack plus some crit feats, allows you to apply a crit feat to the one of the second sneak attack you make in the round. HAWT
Strangler, Require improved grapple and sneak attack, Lets you deal sneak attack damage while grappling foes (as opposed to pinning them, first).
Sure Grasp, good for getting rerolls on climb checks.
Two Weapon Feint, requires some TWF feats, lets you sacrifice an off-hand attack for a swift action feint.
There you have it. Nothing too ninja specific, but plenty of nifty tricks. I am sure I missed stuff too.
They really wanted a "Ninja class" to cater to certain people, it was apparently a loud and vocal enough crowd that they got what they wanted.
I agree with this which is unfortunate, if they wanted such a class it should have been a class. What we have is a very, very small archetype. I feel the tricks not being talents honestly adds nothing to the game but takes from the game for no reason other then the Name they used for the archetype.
Also the Janni style feats seem IMHO to be nice for ninjas. They give you slight bonuses to AC when charging or flanked, a bonus to bullrush or trip after successfully striking an opponent with and unarmed strike (very apropos), bonus damage when charging with an unarmed strike, and always be considered to have a running start to a jump.
The last one isn't that big a deal since ninjas get that anyway, but they lose it if they run out of ki. With Janni Style feats, they can always have a running start.
Those feats and the style do sound like a great fit. Thanks for the info Anduraid.
TW Feint sounds really interesting.
Here are a few of Ninja flavored feats, if you will. Most do not require ninja class features but fit mold. Just going to generally outline them so as to not give away too much before the books release.Adder Strike requires poison use. It allows you to deliver contact poisons through unarmed strikes.
Disorienting Maneuver requires just Dodge and Acrobatics, but its very ninja-esque. grants a bonus to attack after successfully moving through a foes threatened square.
The Disengaging Feint tree allows you to use a feint to help withdraw and evetually allows you to withdraw with a bonus free attack. Certainly a ninja thing to do.
Flanking Foil protects you from being flanked by multiple opponents as long as you can get hits offs. Kind of in the dextrous combatant vein.
Moonlight Stalker is a feat for anyone who has dark/lowlight vision (plus some other prereqs), but grants you bonus damage against foes for whom you have concealment against.
Ooooooo Sneaking Precision, require sneak attack plus some crit feats, allows you to apply a crit feat to the one of the second sneak attack you make in the round. HAWT
Strangler, Require improved grapple and sneak attack, Lets you deal sneak attack damage while grappling foes (as opposed to pinning them, first).
Sure Grasp, good for getting rerolls on climb checks.
Two Weapon Feint, requires some TWF feats, lets you sacrifice an off-hand attack for a swift action feint.
There you have it. Nothing too ninja specific, but plenty of nifty tricks....
Thank you, yeah those feats sure do sound like some awesome ninja stuff. even some great rogue stuff, heck even great for most class.
off topic monk stuff
@seekerofshadowlight
You understand that you are one of the few ones if not the only one in the forums that you think that way about that monk, even if you are correct about the intent, the way everyone else plays it and the fact that d20pfsrd (which as you said is fan made but A LOT of poeple are using this) has it, what do you think when the time comes for an errata or a FAQ? They will do what the vast majority of poeple want (especially since it doesn't affect game balance) to do, the exact same thing happened with the ninja (and you can't say that the game balance wasn't affected) poeple wanted a ninja and got a ninja, poeple want quinggong monk to be able to stack with other archetypes, the most probable thing to happen is that poeple will get such a thing.
So i suggest that you not waste your energy in a (probably) futile attempt to turn the wave around.
I moved the monk topic elsewhere.
So I began thinking, what if I want a ninja with a Wisdom ki pool? Wisdom fits a perceptive, nature-attuned scout a little better than Charisma IMO, and Ninja's can adjust their ki pool to wisdom if they multiclass with monk, so what monk archetype would work best within the first 4 levels?
IMHO the answer has got to be Flowing Monk. Observe.
• Some CHOICE first level bonus feats, Improved Trip, Improved Reposition. No need for Combat Expertise. Can pick up Improved Feint if I take monk to level 6.
• The Redirection feature lets "Flowing Ninja" use trip/reposition feats reactively as an immediate action! AND they caused the sickened condition, what WHAT?!
• Unbalanced Counter means the Flowing ninja's AoO render an opponent flatfooted (if they fail their save) for the turn ? *swoon*
• Flowing Dodge grants even more AC (which is good because flowing ninja ain't wearin' armor) and replaces fast movement. No loss however when the ninja levels kick in.
Holy crap. That's worth 2d6 sneak attack, easy. Only problem here is the drop in over all AC over time. Keeping wisdom topped off as much as possible helps, but AC might be an issue down the road. Otherwise I see lots of synergy here.
edit- Oh yeah, Kusari gama is a monk weapon, so +2 BAB and free TWF with that one. Viva La MONK.
Oh and I forget what the 4 levels of regular monk features gets Flowing ninja.
• Maneuver training, so another +2 to trip and reposition
• 1d8 unarmed strike, easier entry to improved grapple
• still mind, and a smidgeon of slowfall
• Evasion, lolz
on the downside, Unbalanced Counter takes up the 2nd level bonus feat slot. Still worth it.
So I began thinking, what if I want a ninja with a Wisdom ki pool?The easiest way to get a ninja with a Wisdom-based ki pool is to play a rogue, because you can select ninja tricks and a Wisdom-based ki pool as rogue talents.
(Although your proposed flowing monk/ninja build is also cool.)
If it is a Rogue talent he could take it as a Ninja. Thus having Wisdom instead of Cha.
If it is a Rogue talent he could take it as a Ninja. Thus having Wisdom instead of Cha.So I began thinking, what if I want a ninja with a Wisdom ki pool?The easiest way to get a ninja with a Wisdom-based ki pool is to play a rogue, because you can select ninja tricks and a Wisdom-based ki pool as rogue talents.
(Although your proposed flowing monk/ninja build is also cool.)
It doesn't work that way (without rule zero). If the rogue gains a ki pool (such as with being a ninja in the first place) they only add half their Wis bonus to the other ki pool.
But one could easy say it works like that with Cha for "Wisdom Ki ninjas", so they get an additive bonus and not wasted trick on an ability swap. As MAD as they are, I think it works out ok.
I actually laid out in my last post that the access to all those archetypes is why the core Rogue is more versatile than the Ninja. The Ninja is... the Ninja. It can never be anything else. But the Rogue has many options to specialize into a certain direction with his archetypes.You don't need to accept that as "being more versatile", but that is what my opinion tells me.
And here goes the rogue's superior versatility. That didn't last long.
And here goes the rogue's superior versatility. That didn't last long.
That still gives about half of the apg archetypes as rogue only options, about half from what I remember give up trap finding. It really does come down to what you would rather be, a ninja gives you some more stealth options, and could arguably be better at fighting than a rogue, but the rogue is good with traps and is arguably just as good at fighting.
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If it is a Rogue talent he could take it as a Ninja. Thus having Wisdom instead of Cha.So I began thinking, what if I want a ninja with a Wisdom ki pool?The easiest way to get a ninja with a Wisdom-based ki pool is to play a rogue, because you can select ninja tricks and a Wisdom-based ki pool as rogue talents.
(Although your proposed flowing monk/ninja build is also cool.)
It doesn't work that way (without rule zero). If the rogue gains a ki pool (such as with being a ninja in the first place) they only add half their Wis bonus to the other ki pool.
But one could easy say it works like that with Cha for "Wisdom Ki ninjas", so they get an additive bonus and not wasted trick on an ability swap. As MAD as they are, I think it works out ok.
Ninjas can take basic rogue tricks as often as they like. A ninja already has a ki pool' therefore she gets "gains half wisdom bonus to her ki pool". This trick effectively allows a ninja to use a better stat (wisdom) than charisma.
And here goes the rogue's superior versatility. That didn't last long.
I actually laid out in my last post that the access to all those archetypes is why the core Rogue is more versatile than the Ninja. The Ninja is... the Ninja. It can never be anything else. But the Rogue has many options to specialize into a certain direction with his archetypes.You don't need to accept that as "being more versatile", but that is what my opinion tells me.
The rogue has been an obsolete class for a long time. Now any class can find and disable traps. We played War of the Burning Sky from level 1 to level 14 without a rogue. No problem. The only time we got into trouble was when we where stupid. That is, we didn't search for traps.
The bard is more versatile and more useful than a rogue. The Ranger, especially a Urban ranger can find a traps and scout and deal damage just as good as a rogue, in fact he is a better damage dealer than the rogue. As for magical traps, there are ways to deal with them with out having a rogue. As someone pointed out. Not even all rogue archetypes have trap finding. If you really want to disable magical traps, just pick one level rogue and you're done.
Since the rogue has access to the Ninja Tricks and a Ki Pool, that removed my big complaint about the ninja, so I am good with it.
You forgot the fineprint.
Ki Pool (Ex): A rogue with this talent gains a small ki
pool. This ki pool is similar to a ninja’s ki pool, but the
rogue’s ki pool does not grant any extra attacks. The rogue
gains a number of ki points equal to her Wisdom modifier
(minimum 1).
a ninja gains a pool of kipoints, supernatural energy
she can use to accomplish amazing feats. The number of
points in the ninja’s ki pool is equal to 1/2 her ninja level + her Charisma modifier.
My bold
A rogue does not gain 1/2 her rogue level + wisdom, only wisdom bonus.
A 10 level rogue with wis 12 will have 1 ki point.
A 10 level ninja with char 12 will have 6 ki points. Even if the Ninja dumps her char to 8 she still have much more ki than the rogue.
Ninjas can take basic rogue tricks as often as they like. A ninja already has a ki pool' therefore she gets "gains half wisdom bonus to her ki pool". This trick effectively allows a ninja to use a better stat (wisdom) than charisma.
+1
Ok after having gotten to look over the archetype ( I am guilty of looking over the linked PRD stuff). I have to say it has not changed my mind. I plan to rework it. Off the top of my head I shall do the fallowing changes.
The archetype shall be split in two.
The ninja will
Keep the ninja skill list
Keep the ninja weapon list
Poison use, which replaces trap finding
No trace shall replace trapfinding
The second I shall call a Shinobi mystic or some such
It will gain the ki pool and light step ability which shall replace evasion.
Ninja tricks shall re rolled into rogue talents.
Ack, why do so many people want to get Ki off Wisdom? Yeah, I understand that it influences Perception and Will saves, but Charisma gets you the girls and pushes the class towards a more social character.
I think they should really tie something good to Charisma, like bringing out a feat that exchanges it with Wisdom as the Will save stat ( "Force of Personality" or somesuch ), so that it doesn't become as much of a dump stat for so many.
Ok after having gotten to look over the archetype ( I am guilty of looking over the linked PRD stuff). I have to say it has not changed my mind. I plan to rework it. Off the top of my head I shall do the fallowing changes.
The archetype shall be split in two.
The ninja will
Keep the ninja skill list
Keep the ninja weapon listPoison use, which replaces trap finding
No trace shall replace trapfindingThe second I shall call a Shinobi mystic or some such
It will gain the ki pool and light step ability which shall replace evasion.
Ninja tricks shall re rolled into rogue talents.
For your ki using shinobi mystic, I humbly suggest making it a monk archetype. :D
Thought of that, but I may do that anyhow. The ninja to me is clearly the first set of ablilites, which the second set are the more mystic aspects. As they simply replace evasion I feel it wold be more fun to allow them to stack with more archetypes. After all there is for more to the mystic far east then Japan :)
Ok after having gotten to look over the archetype ( I am guilty of looking over the linked PRD stuff). I have to say it has not changed my mind. I plan to rework it. Off the top of my head I shall do the fallowing changes.
The archetype shall be split in two.[...]
I think you are making a mistake. Boosting the rogue and not letting the ninja take the Ki Pool Rogue Talent would be a better option.
IMHO.But it's your game so I'm not going to try to convince do anything you obviously don't want do.
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You forgot the fineprint.Ki Pool (Ex): A rogue with this talent gains a small ki
pool. This ki pool is similar to a ninja’s ki pool, but the
rogue’s ki pool does not grant any extra attacks. The rogue
gains a number of ki points equal to her Wisdom modifier
(minimum 1).a ninja gains a pool of kipoints, supernatural energy
she can use to accomplish amazing feats. The number of
points in the ninja’s ki pool is equal to 1/2 her ninja level + her Charisma modifier.My bold
A rogue does not gain 1/2 her rogue level + wisdom, only wisdom bonus.
A 10 level rogue with wis 12 will have 1 ki point.
A 10 level ninja with char 12 will have 6 ki points. Even if the Ninja dumps her char to 8 she still have much more ki than the rogue.
Thank you for pointing this out for me,
excuse me a moment...
*Smashes head against the desk violently until passed out from the clear and obviously deliberate hatred of rogues by paizo*
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Ack, why do so many people want to get Ki off Wisdom? Yeah, I understand that it influences Perception and Will saves, but Charisma gets you the girls and pushes the class towards a more social character.
I think they should really tie something good to Charisma, like bringing out a feat that exchanges it with Wisdom as the Will save stat ( "Force of Personality" or somesuch ), so that it doesn't become as much of a dump stat for so many.
Beause, they changed it, now it SUUUUUCKS!
...I guess. I don't understand it any better tan you do. This thing is barely in writing and people can't accept it as it is. I guess they can't handle the MAD, which I hardly call it different from the rogue baseline, since everything about the ninja is tied to it's charisma, whereas the rogue is tied to it's intelligence.
*Smashes head against the desk violently until passed out from the clear and obviously deliberate hatred of rogues by paizo*
I think paizo is trying to FIX the rogue.