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The new text:
Heirloom Weapon: You carry a non-masterwork simple or martial weapon that has been passed down from generation to generation in your family (pay the standard gp cost for the weapon). When you select this trait, choose one of the following benefits: proficiency with that specific weapon, a +1 trait bonus on attacks of opportunity with
that specific weapon, or a +2 trait bonus on one kind of combat maneuver when using that specific weapon.
Note that the guidelines for this trait changing do not speak of traits, but we can extrapolate from how feats change:
If a feat changes or is removed from the Additional Resources list:
You have two options. You may either switch the old feat for an updated feat of the same name in another legal source (if available), ignoring any prerequisites of the new feat you do not meet. Alternatively, you may replace the feat entirely with another feat that has no prerequisites.
-Matt
Well, that is such a massive change to the trait that I wonder what it will mean to all the players who have enchanted their old masterwork heirloom weapon? The easiest thing I can see is to simply let them subtract the masterwork cost from their current gold and keep adventuring, even though normally a regular weapon cannot be upgraded to masterwork.
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Well, that is such a massive change to the trait that I wonder what it will mean to all the players who have enchanted their old masterwork heirloom weapon? The easiest thing I can see is to simply let them subtract the masterwork cost from their current gold and keep adventuring, even though normally a regular weapon cannot be upgraded to masterwork.
Ultimate Magic provided the solution.
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RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32
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Not to nitpic, but this kills the RP purpose of the trait. Before the rules and the RP were in line, you had a strong motivation to keep the weapon and got screwed if it broke. Now it has a built in failure - i.e. it cannot be enchanted. So the incentive to keep it around mechanically has evaporated.
A clause allowing it to be enchanted but *not* making it masterwork would fix this. Then you have some reason to keep the stupid thing without handing out 300 gp.
Well, that is such a massive change to the trait that I wonder what it will mean to all the players who have enchanted their old masterwork heirloom weapon? The easiest thing I can see is to simply let them subtract the masterwork cost from their current gold and keep adventuring, even though normally a regular weapon cannot be upgraded to masterwork.Ultimate Magic provided the solution.
And while the spell is legal, all spell durations end at the end of a scenario, even ones that create permanent things, so this would still not work.
Yes, it is official, for both home and PFS games. Go to the Adventurer's Armory product page and download the official errata document for it. If they ever do another printing of the book, this is the text they will use.
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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Well, this will be a disappointment to many.
In particular, you can switch out a feat but, as the rules currently stand, you cannot switch out a trait because of a rules change / erratum.
So someone with, say, an heirloom elven blade that he's had enchanted will need to (a) pick up the Exotic Weapon feat (and suffer the penalties for using a weapon without proficiency until then) (b) pay for the base (masterwork weapon). But he should probably be allowed to shift his Heirloom Weapon trait to another (non-masterwork, martial) weapon that he owns.
Yes, it is official, for both home and PFS games. Go to the Adventurer's Armory product page and download the official errata document for it. If they ever do another printing of the book, this is the text they will use.
Actually, they have done a new printing. And the PDF, for those who have it, has been updated. Vic Wertz posted an explanation in the thread for the Adventurer's Armory. I also received my email telling me to come get the updated PDF earlier this evening.
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Andrew, that's not how PFS works. Once a revision to the text (new definition of the trait, in this case) happens, it's immediately in effect. Right now, there is a way to deal with the change, as I outlined above.
Actually it looks like to me that you outlined how the changing your character based on rules changes doesn't apply to traits. And then you have some suggestions on how you think it should be done.
I'd imagine that Mark will have a specific way he wants to handle any character changes based on this change.
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When they changed the text, they could have added in an option to put it through a: bonding ceremony, soul binding, reforging process,redeeming exercise, or what ever event with a 300 gp cost to bring it to masterwork standards just to allow it to be upgraded to magic.
That spell might make the trait a somewhat justifiable pick for some characters in private campaigns but as pointed out, it does not permanently fix things for society play.
Lets see how respectively the society lets us handle our corrections. Because as the trait is written, with no way to upgrade to mw and later mag, I sure as hell never would have taken it. Nor could have for the exotic weapon I had chosen for it. The stance on feat changes seems fair to me. So I will not yet expect the worse. Or do they want to change even more rules for a respectable fix?
I use to sacrafice the cost of reselling a weapon and pay full price of a mww to have the original reforged as mw. I liked swinging the steel from my beginning adventuring career.
Yes, it is official, for both home and PFS games. Go to the Adventurer's Armory product page and download the official errata document for it. If they ever do another printing of the book, this is the text they will use.Actually, they have done a new printing. And the PDF, for those who have it, has been updated. Vic Wertz posted an explanation in the thread for the Adventurer's Armory. I also received my email telling me to come get the updated PDF earlier this evening.
Yes, but they have not done a new printing yet that includes this change and whatever other changes were made today as well.
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Yep. I'm glad I was clear. The rules --that the trait no longer applies to a character's masterwork, magic, or exotic weapon-- are pretty straight-forward.
I had suggested that Mark allow the trait to shift which weapon it applies to. As things stand now, the trait is useless. And as things stand now, we're sort of stuck with it. (One of my PC's took the trait and then got his weapon dwoemered; so I'm as stuck as other people.)
It sounds like you were advocating that we ignore the rules change until Mark makes an announcement whether or not he'll bend one rule or another to let us trade in the weapon Heirloom Weapon applies to, or trade in the trait. (He might not do either.) If I misunderstood you, I apologize.
Andrew, that's not how PFS works. Once a revision to the text (new definition of the trait, in this case) happens, it's immediately in effect. Right now, there is a way to deal with the change, as I outlined above.
Not sure if this is correct. This was the rule for playtests, but this is not a playtest. This would seem to fall under the Guidelines For Conversions Due To Changing Rules post, except that post doesn't cover traits. I don't think there IS a rule to cover this particular problem.
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So what was the compelling rationale behind nerfing it so heavily?
Because it was grossly overpowered. I felt guilty using it, but I still did.
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So what was the compelling rationale behind nerfing it so heavily?Because it was grossly overpowered. I felt guilty using it, but I still did.
Well not really. 'Overpowered' is pretty subjective, and to be honest if that is simply code for not evenly balanced against ALL the other traits then I'd concede that, but there are a few traits in that basket, as well as some that are downright sub-par.
You got a great cookie at level 1, which was not so great as time went on.
As opposed to other more average traits which simply apply their bonus consistently over time.
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Please wait patiently while Mr. Moreland comes up with a way forward for Pathfinders who will be affected by this change.
The reason the trait was errata'ed is that it should be pretty clear by most objective measures to be over-powered. In an organized play environment it's worse, and cheesier. I for one will not shed a tear over the sudden loss of untold numbers of masterwork heirloom falcatas from the surface of Golarion.
Well not really. 'Overpowered' is pretty subjective, and to be honest if that is simply code for not evenly balanced against ALL the other traits then I'd concede that, but there are a few traits in that basket, as well as some that are downright sub-par.So what was the compelling rationale behind nerfing it so heavily?Because it was grossly overpowered. I felt guilty using it, but I still did.
When a trait is as good as two feats AND it gives you a free masterwork weapon at level 1, I subjectively consider it grossly overpowered.
While I won't be sorry to see all of the masterwork Meteor Hammers disappear from the world, I am sorry I modded a mini to carry an Earthbreaker.
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I assume then that fixing a trait was politically more palatable than fixing the problem, Falcata's.
Its pretty poor that a great roleplay driven trait has been burnt at the stake rather than fix the actual issue.
As it was it was good, no denying, but over time it became significantly less good, and in fact a degree restrictive. Thats balance.
Similarly, at level 1 there is only so much cash available, someone might get their Bow or Elven Blade and basically pay all their money to do so (ie no decent armour etc) but they weren't getting repeat Xbows or Str Bows etc. So it was limited. Similarly there was little room for Cold Iron, Silvered, or anything else.
Fix Falcatas.
When a trait is as good as two feats AND it gives you a free masterwork weapon at level 1, I subjectively consider it grossly overpowered.
It is not as good as Two Feats, that is just incorrect.
Feat 1, Martial Weapon Prof, means I could pick up any old Longsword (for example) and use it. The Trait means I can use THAT Longsword, and if I ever lose it, that's it. Stolen, destroyed, captured whatever = GONE.
not so the Feat.
Feat 2, Weapon focus, See 1 above.
FREE WEAPON? There is no 'Free Weapon', you still need to pay for the weapon, you get 300 free gp worth of Masterwork though, OR I could take the Rich Parent trait and get NINE HUNDRED 900 GP and have a Masterwork Sword AND the Masterwork Armour to go with it.
Actually they were getting Str Bows, just at Str 10 that was upgraded next scenario.
Actually they were getting Str Bows, just at Str 10 that was upgraded next scenario.How are they doing that after the fact?
The bows are built at a STR level, you dont bolt on the mod.
Yes, you can. Also you can't take Rich Parents, which is what made the free masterwork so good.
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Yes, you can. Also you can't take Rich Parents, which is what made the free masterwork so good.
Sure maybe not in PFS, but the change to HW affect all games under the rules not just PFS. RP is still alive and kicking (as far as I am aware) everywhere else.
If you want a PFS nerf to a trait that's one thing, but game wide?
Anyhow, interesting on the bows... thats flat out cheating plain and simple.
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Yep. I'm glad I was clear. The rules --that the trait no longer applies to a character's masterwork, magic, or exotic weapon-- are pretty straight-forward.
I had suggested that Mark allow the trait to shift which weapon it applies to. As things stand now, the trait is useless. And as things stand now, we're sort of stuck with it. (One of my PC's took the trait and then got his weapon dwoemered; so I'm as stuck as other people.)
It sounds like you were advocating that we ignore the rules change until Mark makes an announcement whether or not he'll bend one rule or another to let us trade in the weapon Heirloom Weapon applies to, or trade in the trait. (He might not do either.) If I misunderstood you, I apologize.
Nope.
If the rules state that when a change in the text is made, then the change is applied to all instances of characters using said text, then that is what should happen.
What I meant was, that I doubt that Mark is going to make a bunch of people be stuck with crap because of this pretty significant change. So before everyone gets a wad, perhaps wait and see Mark's official PFS response to this change?
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Fix Falcatas.
How is the falcata broken exactly? It's got a feat tax on it. Pay the tax, and you are good to go.
Get it for free (you are now up 300+ gp) and weapon focus and EWP with it for a trait, but blame the falcata? The best you can say in defense of it is, "Well, it doesn't stay super-awesome-broken forever."
boggles
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So what was the compelling rationale behind nerfing it so heavily?Because it was grossly overpowered. I felt guilty using it, but I still did.Well not really. 'Overpowered' is pretty subjective, and to be honest if that is simply code for not evenly balanced against ALL the other traits then I'd concede that, but there are a few traits in that basket, as well as some that are downright sub-par.
You got a great cookie at level 1, which was not so great as time went on.
As opposed to other more average traits which simply apply their bonus consistently over time.
Most traits give you a nice little bonus here or there.
This particular trait was better than most feats.
Way overpowered is an understatement.
Sure maybe not in PFS, but the change to HW affect all games under the rules not just PFS. RP is still alive and kicking (as far as I am aware) everywhere else.
You do realize you are posting in a Society forum, don't you?
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I assume then that fixing a trait was politically more palatable than fixing the problem, Falcata's.
Its pretty poor that a great roleplay driven trait has been burnt at the stake rather than fix the actual issue.
As it was it was good, no denying, but over time it became significantly less good, and in fact a degree restrictive. Thats balance.
Similarly, at level 1 there is only so much cash available, someone might get their Bow or Elven Blade and basically pay all their money to do so (ie no decent armour etc) but they weren't getting repeat Xbows or Str Bows etc. So it was limited. Similarly there was little room for Cold Iron, Silvered, or anything else.Fix Falcatas.
Really? Are you really saying that the problem is with a weapon and not this trait?
Applied to a Sap, this trait was ridiculously overpowered.
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Yes, you can. Also you can't take Rich Parents, which is what made the free masterwork so good.Sure maybe not in PFS, but the change to HW affect all games under the rules not just PFS. RP is still alive and kicking (as far as I am aware) everywhere else.
If you want a PFS nerf to a trait that's one thing, but game wide?
Anyhow, interesting on the bows... thats flat out cheating plain and simple.
GM's anywhere can choose to take this and use the change, or choose to stick with the old rule.
This change was not made because of PFS.
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How is the falcata broken exactly? It's got a feat tax on it. Pay the tax, and you are good to go.
YOU were the one to bring up Falcatas, so obviously you are already across that debate. The arguments around Falcatas, and by extension the whole Exotics debate is already well covered elsewhere. The Falcata is a standout weapon, thats been done to death.
This is about demonstrating that a particular trait is 'as good as two feats' or 'better than most feats'.
Not if the downsides are enforced.
Yes, but they have not done a new printing yet that includes this change and whatever other changes were made today as well.Yes, it is official, for both home and PFS games. Go to the Adventurer's Armory product page and download the official errata document for it. If they ever do another printing of the book, this is the text they will use.Actually, they have done a new printing. And the PDF, for those who have it, has been updated. Vic Wertz posted an explanation in the thread for the Adventurer's Armory. I also received my email telling me to come get the updated PDF earlier this evening.
Rather than edit my other post and having it lost in the thread:
I realized that you were not talking about the new printing they did shortly after the book was released as I just saw the post in the thread about Adventurer's Armory that they are now shipping the newest printing of the book and this new printing does include the changes issued today.
So for those wondering if it is in effect yet for PFS, the general rule I have seen is that if the book is available to non-subscribers, then whatever is legal is the book is available to use starting on that day. Today is that day and the change is officially in effect. Now we just wait and see how Mark rules on all the characters who already have the old version of the trait.
And Shifty,
the strength bow thing is done the same way as adding pluses or powers to magic weapons or armor. While not allowed by the regular rules, it is allowed as a PFS house rule and, if not in the current Guide, will be in the next one.
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And Shifty,the strength bow thing is done the same way as adding pluses or powers to magic weapons or armor. While not allowed by the regular rules, it is allowed as a PFS house rule and, if not in the current Guide, will be in the next one.
Nope, clearly not allowed in the normal rules. It's making exceptions like that which leads to things like HW getting broken. A 'houserule' for PFS shouldn't dictate changes to the core game (which appears to be what we have here).
Thats the tail wagging the dog.
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And Shifty,the strength bow thing is done the same way as adding pluses or powers to magic weapons or armor. While not allowed by the regular rules, it is allowed as a PFS house rule and, if not in the current Guide, will be in the next one.
Nope, clearly not allowed in the normal rules. It's making exceptions like that which leads to things like HW getting broken. A 'houserule' for PFS shouldn't dictate changes to the core game (which appears to be what we have here).
Thats the tail wagging the dog.
It is an old house rule on the Strength bow thing. We will see shortly if this is changed in the new guide coming out in a couple weeks or so.
This exception is not what "broke" the heirloom weapon trait.
The trait was broken to begin with. It should never have seen print as written. Nice idea, but way easily exploited and gave more abilities than two feats combined.
I'm done saying the same thing over and over to you. Either you'll get it, or you won't.
I agree with all of the changes except the non masterwork part. No one is going to be still carrying a non masterwork weapon around with them past level 5 unless the DM is really able to incorporate said weapon into the story, so it's still a potential pain in the rear to handle. For my games, I'll probably use the new version but keep the masterwork part from the old version; that still maintains the rp value while keeping the mechanical benefits in line with other traits.
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I agree with all of the changes except the non masterwork part. No one is going to be still carrying a non masterwork weapon around with them past level 5 unless the DM is really able to incorporate said weapon into the story, so it's still a potential pain in the rear to handle. For my games, I'll probably use the new version but keep the masterwork part from the old version; that still maintains the rp value while keeping the mechanical benefits in line with other traits.
For a home game, you can see a link to an Ultimate Magic spell above, that will allow you to turn a normal weapon into a masterwork one. This should solve that problem for the Masterwork issue.
For PFS this becomes a problem though, as spell effects end at the end of an adventure, even permanent effects.
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Huh? How were they not applying it properly? Pick a weapon, pick the trait, go. How is that incorrect?
For the trait to be maximised out I would need to pick a weapon I would not otherwise get by virtue of race or class. Otherwise it immediately becomes a lot less of a trait.
Now assuming I did that Trait means I can use only that particular weapon.
As the character continues on, the character is pretty much stuck with either maintaining that weapon (spending their cash having it enchanted and needing to build from the ground up) or go back to being less efficient with a 'looted item'.
In campaigns, the bulk of the equipment a player gets is looted items, they either have to sell these at a loss to then pay a pile to get their weapon upgraded, OR make a decision about abandoning that weapon and being less skilled with the new item. It created choices.
As a game issue, I ever lose it, that's it. Stolen, destroyed, captured whatever = GONE.
I can see why (in PFS) this would be a problem, but not so in regular campaigns where longer term (more than four hours of a session) has to be considered.
Weigh that up with the number of additional plot hooks and adventure stories an heirloom weapon can bring to a GM and frankly this represents a real loss.
No more Heirloom iconic weapons.
I would prefer to see players kicking about with their Hattori Hanzo's.
'Perfect game balance' is something I am not concerned with.
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This is about demonstrating that a particular trait is 'as good as two feats' or 'better than most feats'.
Not if the downsides are enforced.
As a 1st level human fighter let's say I take:
Feat - Exotic Weapon Proficiency (falcata)
Feat - Weapon Focus (falcata) (human bonus)
Feat - Power Attack (fighter bonus)
Trait - Killer
Trait - Reactionary
Sure, fine. Nice build I guess.
Or...
Same fighter I take
Feat - Power Attack
Feat - Combat Reflexes (human bonus)
Feat - Cleave (fighter bonus)
Trait - Killer
Trait - Heirloom Weapon (falcata)
Which fighter is going to be more effective in combat?
But wait! There's more! You can still get the similar benefits of EWP and Weapon Focus (falcata) for any non-full BAB class you want at level 1! You lucky duck you!
What's the downside? Now as a GM I have to be a prick to everyone at my table and try to steal/sunder their weapon of choice cause I can't remember which of you has taken Heirloom Weapon on another character you've just started?
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I agree with all of the changes except the non masterwork part.
That's the part I am being all offended by.
On a side note, I have seen HW taken only a handfull of times, and not once with a Falcata.
And thats over a significant number of builds I have seen.
Once again, you are posting in a PFS forum.
Yet the change is made in a book that applies to all games, not just PFS. If it was just in PFS then thats fine.