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Trying to get a handle on how a magus using spell combat with Natural Weapons would work.
first
Second
To use this ability, the magus must have one hand free (even if the spell being cast does not have somatic components), while wielding a light or one-handed melee weapon in the other hand. As a full-round action, he can make all of his attacks with his melee weapon at a –2 penalty and can also cast any spell from the magus spell list with a casting time of 1 standard action (any attack roll made as part of this spell also takes this penalty)
Third
Whenever a magus casts a spell with a range of “touch” from the magus spell list, he can deliver the spell through any weapon he is wielding as part of a melee attack. Instead of the free melee touch attack normally allowed to deliver the spell, a magus can make one free melee attack with his weapon (at his highest base attack bonus) as part of casting this spell. If successful, this melee attack deals its normal damage as well as the effects of the spell. If the magus makes this attack in concert with spell combat, this melee attack takes all the penalties accrued by spell combat melee attacks.
Special: Natural weapons are considered light weapons.
So now that Weapon Finesse considers a natural weapon a Light weapon it should be a valid choice for spell combat.
(an argument can be made for it not stating it's a light melee weapon but that's a stretchMy question would be how would a typical Claw/Claw/bite Magus be affected by using spell combat to channel Chill Touch ?
A. Everything functions normally; he casts chill touch and does his full attack (claw/claw/bite) and the -2 penalty is ignored since Two weapon fighting doesn't affect natural attacks.
B. Everything functions normally; he casts chill touch and does his full attack (claw/claw/bite) with each attack at -2 and each hit applying a chill touch affect.
C. Everything functions normally BUT only one of his attacks is at -2, since spell combat only references a single weapon.
D. Some things are Different; Spell combat works normally but invokes the two weapon fighting rules and Natural Attacks are now flagged as secondary attacks and are at a -5 (-2 with multi-attack)
E. Spell Combat doesn't work at all.
Spell strike on the other hand looks like it works perfectly.
Once he casts the spell every hit will eat a charge from the touch spell adding it to the damage and at a higher chance to hit then the manufactured weapon using Magus since all natural attacks are at full BaB instead of Bab - X.
You'll be going through charges of Chill Touch a lot faster then a scimitar wielding Magus and you'll have a lower Crit chance but the Higher + to hit and the extra attacks per round should really keep the damage up.
If it were me, you would substitute "Two Weapon Fighting" with the feat "Multiweapon Fighting" from the bestiary. It states that creatures with multiple weapons use it instead of Two Weapon Fighting. I'd actually rule that it'd be this:
F. Some things are different; he casts Chill Touch and does a claw and bite attack each at the -2 penalty for Multiweapon Fighting (he loses one claw attack since it must be "free" to hold the spell and touch with it)
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If it were me, you would substitute "Two Weapon Fighting" with the feat "Multiweapon Fighting" from the bestiary. It states that creatures with multiple weapons use it instead of Two Weapon Fighting. I'd actually rule that it'd be this:
F. Some things are different; he casts Chill Touch and does a claw and bite attack each at the -2 penalty for Multiweapon Fighting (he loses one claw attack since it must be "free" to hold the spell and touch with it)
Ok, why would you choose that feat and how would anyone qualify for it?
It requires you to have 3 or more hands before you can take it and the penalties are far worse to use it.The main reason you'd choose to use natural weapons is since your hands are always empty and any touch will trigger the effect is your natural attacks will all do normal damage + the chill touch effect without needing to channel anything through a weapon.
I've always believed and ruled (maybe incorrectly) that because a natural weapon is a weapon and touch spells are also a weapon (can crit, eligible for weapon focus et al., etc.) they don't play nice together. Just like claws and swords or swords and touch spells. Because one claw is holding the charge, you can't also claw with it. It's one or the other.
I referenced multiweapon fighting because it's basically two-weapon fighting with multiple natural weapons.
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I've always believed and ruled (maybe incorrectly) that because a natural weapon is a weapon and touch spells are also a weapon (can crit, eligible for weapon focus et al., etc.) they don't play nice together. Just like claws and swords or swords and touch spells. Because one claw is holding the charge, you can't also claw with it. It's one or the other.
I referenced multiweapon fighting because it's basically two-weapon fighting with multiple natural weapons.
Multi-weapon fighting is actually more like 3 (or more) weapon fighting since you need 3+ arms wielding a manufactured weapon in each hand. Has nothing to do with Natural weapons.
As for the other part we are discussing a Magus who's class is built specifically about getting your touch spells to play nice with your weapons. Spellstrike is all about using your weapon to to do damage to an opponent and channelling thhe touch spell along at the same time.
Well, if you combine Spellstrike with Spell Combat on this Chill Touch then you would clearly get all three natural attacks. But you just asked about Spell Combat. *smirk*
You are right about Multiweapon Fighting specifically referring to 3+ arms but it is the closest analogue in the rules we have to using the TWF rules with more than two weapons. I'm not saying that you would suddenly gain that feat, but rather that, similar to how that feat specifies taking the penalty to all attacks, using multiple natural weapons with Spell Combat would apply the penalty across all attacks.
So, back to my original statement, without using Spellstrike and just using Spell Combat, you would get your bite attack at -2, one claw attack at -2 and your Chill Touch spell.
Spell Combat (Ex): At 1st level, a magus learns to cast spells
and wield his weapons at the same time. This functions much
like two-weapon fighting, but the off-hand weapon is a spell
that is being cast. To use this ability, the magus must have one
hand free (even if the spell being cast does not have somatic
components), while wielding a light or one-handed melee
weapon in the other hand. As a full-round action, he can make
all of his attacks with his melee weapon at a –2 penalty and
can also cast any spell from the magus spell list with a casting
time of 1 standard action (any attack roll made as part of this
spell also takes this penalty). If he casts this spell defensively,
he can decide to take an additional penalty on his attack rolls,
up to his Intelligence bonus, and add the same amount as a
circumstance bonus on his concentration check. If the check
fails, the spell is wasted, but the attacks still take the penalty.
A magus can choose to cast the spell first or make the weapon
attacks first, but if he has more than one attack, he cannot
cast the spell between weapon attacks.
The bolded section is my evidence for not being able to use a claw and touch spell in the same hand. The way Spell Combat works is that essentially the spell counts as a weapon in the off-hand. Since you can't wield a weapon and use a natural attack on the same hand, it stands to reason that (without Spellstrike) you can't use the claw and touch spell that is acting as a weapon in the same hand.
At level 2, he would gain the ability to use the claw holding the charge for the spell would be able to deal its claw damage in addition to discharging the held spell. This lets you make your bite at -2, both claws at -2 and your touch spell (assuming the assigned claw hits). Since Spellstrike changes the spell from targeting Touch AC to targeting normal AC, it's a trade off for the additional damage.
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Well, if you combine Spellstrike with Spell Combat on this Chill Touch then you would clearly get all three natural attacks. But you just asked about Spell Combat. *smirk*
You are right about Multiweapon Fighting specifically referring to 3+ arms but it is the closest analogue in the rules we have to using the TWF rules with more than two weapons. I'm not saying that you would suddenly gain that feat, but rather that, similar to how that feat specifies taking the penalty to all attacks, using multiple natural weapons with Spell Combat would apply the penalty across all attacks.
So, back to my original statement, without using Spellstrike and just using Spell Combat, you would get your bite attack at -2, one claw attack at -2 and your Chill Touch spell.
The bolded section is my evidence for not being able to use a claw and touch spell in the same hand. The way Spell...Spell Combat (Ex): At 1st level, a magus learns to cast spells
and wield his weapons at the same time. This functions much
like two-weapon fighting, but the off-hand weapon is a spell
that is being cast. To use this ability, the magus must have one
hand free (even if the spell being cast does not have somatic
components), while wielding a light or one-handed melee
weapon in the other hand. As a full-round action, he can make
all of his attacks with his melee weapon at a –2 penalty and
can also cast any spell from the magus spell list with a casting
time of 1 standard action (any attack roll made as part of this
spell also takes this penalty). If he casts this spell defensively,
he can decide to take an additional penalty on his attack rolls,
up to his Intelligence bonus, and add the same amount as a
circumstance bonus on his concentration check. If the check
fails, the spell is wasted, but the attacks still take the penalty.
A magus can choose to cast the spell first or make the weapon
attacks first, but if he has more than one attack, he cannot
cast the spell between weapon attacks.
Purely by the text it states that the weapon in the other hand takes the penalty not all the attacks the caster is capable of. In the part you bolded it is pretty specifically referring to just that weapon. The rest of his attacks shouldn't have any penalty to them since they don't use that hand.
Now add to that the rules for natural attacks that no longer suffer any penalties for two weapon fighting and all attacks are at full BaB.
(Natural weapons don't suffer any penalties for performing multiple attacks a round as long as they use diffeent limbs. It's the trade off for not getting any iterative attacks)
This is my question;
Since spell combat functions like two weapon fighting with a light weapon in both hands (hence the -2 penalty to all attacks) and natural weapons do not suffer any penalties for two weapon fighting any more (was removed in the change from bestiary 1 to bestiary 2).
Does a natural weapon attack suffer the -2 penalty for two weapon fighting or the -5 penalty for secondary attacks or neither since it's not doing either of those?
You have my ruling (if you were at my table) along with my reasoning for it, which is RAI as best as I can determine it. Maybe someone else will hop into this thread and give a concurring or dissenting opinion.