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I apologize for the wall of text in advance.
So I'm curious as to the actual definition of what a Death Attack is for the purposes of determining when a Raise Dead / Breath of Life spell would work. Let's look at the Core Rulebook definition:
In most cases, a death attack allows the victim a Fortitude save to avoid the effect, but if the save fails, the character dies instantly.
Raise dead doesn't work on someone killed by a death attack or effect.
Death attacks slay instantly. A victim cannot be made stable and thereby kept alive.
In case it matters, a dead character, no matter how he died, has hit points equal to or less than his negative Constitution score.
The spell death ward protects against these attacks
Alright, cool. So most cases, Fortitude save or die = death attack. But is that necessarily the case?
As a full-round action, you can use a melee weapon to deliver a coup de grace (pronounced “coo day grahs”) to a helpless opponent. You can also use a bow or crossbow, provided you are adjacent to the target.
You automatically hit and score a critical hit. If the defender survives the damage, he must make a Fortitude save (DC 10 + damage dealt) or die. A rogue also gets her extra sneak attack damage against a helpless opponent when delivering a coup de grace.
Delivering a coup de grace provokes attacks of opportunity from threatening opponents.
You can't deliver a coup de grace against a creature that is immune to critical hits. You can deliver a coup de grace against a creature with total concealment, but doing this requires two consecutive full-round actions (one to “find” the creature once you've determined what square it's in, and one to deliver the coup de grace).
Alright, well nothing in there necessarily defines it as one, the only thing that it has going for it is the fact it's a Fortitude save or die.
Well, let's check out the assassin and it's 1st level class ability, death attack:
If an assassin studies his victim for 3 rounds and then makes a sneak attack with a melee weapon that successfully deals damage, the sneak attack has the additional effect of possibly either paralyzing or killing the target (assassin's choice). Studying the victim is a standard action. The death attack fails if the target detects the assassin or recognizes the assassin as an enemy (although the attack might still be a sneak attack if the target is denied his Dexterity bonus to his Armor Class or is flanked). If the victim of such a death attack fails a Fortitude save (DC 10 + the assassin's class level + the assassin's Int modifier) against the kill effect, she dies. If the saving throw fails against the paralysis effect, the victim is rendered helpless and unable to act for 1d6 rounds plus 1 round per level of the assassin. If the victim's saving throw succeeds, the attack is just a normal sneak attack. Once the assassin has completed the 3 rounds of study, he must make the death attack within the next 3 rounds.
Alright, well that puts us in the same boat as coup de grace, despite having the same name as the ability listed under "Special Abilities" in the back of the Core. That's actually pretty ridiculous (and definitely is in need of some re-wording). But, there is something interesting in the assassin PrC abilities that gives us more detail specifically about their "death attack."
Starting at 4th level, anyone slain by an assassin's death attack becomes more difficult to bring back from the dead. Spellcasters attempting to bring a creature back from the dead using raise dead or similar magic must make a caster level check with a DC equal to 15 + the assassin's level or the spell fails and the material component is wasted. Casting remove curse the round before attempting to bring the creature back from the dead negates this chance. The DC of the remove curse is 10 + the assassin's level.
Alright, now we're getting somewhere. This calls out the fact that you can Raise Dead someone using the "Death Attack" of an assassin, not making qualifying "Death Attack" as laid out in the back of the book because Raise Dead and Breath of Life can be used to bring this person back. This is further compounded by the fact assassins do not get an ability to kill without the ability to have Raise Dead cast on a target until they hit 10th level in the PrC. I'd definitely say if the assassin doesn't get this ability until 10th, there is no way coup de grace could count as a "Death Attack" for purposes of not being able to Raise Dead / Breath of Life someone. This makes sense because the original texts starts out saying "In most cases," meaning there are cases where Fortitude saves or die does not mean you cannot Raise Dead them.
That all proves cases were all Fortitude save or die situations are not "Death Attacks" for the purposes of Raise Dead / Breath of Life, but it leaves me wondering what does? This ambiguity over what constitutes as a "Death Attack" confuses me.
So if there is no clear definition, what constitutes as a "Death Attack" as listed on p. 562. I'd say for certain that spells with the school listing of 'necromancy [death]' certainly qualify, but what else?
One question in my mind that comes up is how do you classify Phantasmal Killer? Bellow is the text:
School illusion (phantasm) [fear, mind-affecting]; Level sorcerer/wizard 4
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S
Range medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level)
Target one living creature
Duration instantaneous
Saving Throw Will disbelief, then Fortitude partial; see text; Spell Resistance yes
You create a phantasmal image of the most fearsome creature imaginable to the subject simply by forming the fears of the subject's subconscious mind into something that its conscious mind can visualize: this most horrible beast. Only the spell's subject can see the phantasmal killer. You see only a vague shape. The target first gets a Will save to recognize the image as unreal. If that save fails, the phantasm touches the subject, and the subject must succeed on a Fortitude save or die from fear. Even if the Fortitude save is successful, the subject takes 3d6 points of damage.
If the subject of a phantasmal killer attack succeeds in disbelieving and possesses telepathy or is wearing a helm of telepathy, the beast can be turned upon you. You must then disbelieve it or become subject to its deadly fear attack.
So Phantasmal Killer meets the requirements of Fortitude save or die, but I don't know if it is necessarily a "Death Attack" because of the poor wording. Would a resurrection be necessary to bring this character back, or would a Raise Dead / Breath of Life work for it?
And if it is indeed a "death attack," it seems ridiculous to me that a 4th level spell can trump a 5th level spell in terms of negating death, but that gets into my own personal opinion. I mean, yes, death ward does trump higher level spells, but only if they deal with energy drain or negative energy effects. For all other spells, including Phantasmal Killer and higher (Circle of Death, Disintegrate, Suffocation, etc.) it just gives a +4 morale bonus vs. the save.
BTW I appreciate all input folks may have, but I would like to steer this conversation away from home rulings. I'm posting this because it came into play in a PFS game, so the more PFS-minded responses would be better for my understanding(although by no means should that stop you from having a discussion about how it will be ruled in a home game, because I do think it is a very undefined subject regardless of the situation it came up in). Thanks!
As far as I can tell, it's the [Death] descriptor on a spell. Here's the text on that descriptor from the magic section.
Death: Spells with the death descriptor directly attack a creature’s life force to cause immediate death, or to draw on the power of a dead or dying creature. The death ward spell protects against death effects, and some creature types are immune to death effects.
This seems to me to indicate that the death descriptor is there to denote what is and is not a death effect. I think other things would have to specifically call out "this is a death effect."
I've always taken 'death attack' to mean a supernatural or magical effect that causes death without regard to a creature's hit points.
The blurb from the back of the book says that "The spell death ward protects against these attacks." Death ward tells us it protects against "all death spells and magical death effects," but "does not protect against other sorts of attacks, even if those attacks might be lethal."
As Omelite points out, death spells would be anything with the death descriptor.
The only two magical death effects that are specifically called out are Deadly Performance and a Slaying Arrow.
So does "death spells" and "magical death effects" count as "Death Attacks" like the back of the book states (AKA is Phantasmal Killer a Death Attack)?
I believe yes, although on reasoning that would make you fail a first-year rhetoric class.
Death ward protects against 'death attacks.'
Death ward protects against 'death spells' and 'magical death effects.'
Therefore, 'death spells' and 'magical death effects' are 'death attacks.'
Phantasmal killer is an odd spell. It can result in death although it does not have the [death] descriptor nor is it specifically called out as a death effect. Death ward would not provide protection.
Finger of death also presents a conundrum. It has the [death] descriptor, but since the Pathfinder re-write it no longer slays the victim outright, yet death ward would provide protection.
Sorry, I can't provide a rules-as-written definition but the developers didn't provide us with one because I guess they assumed we would know when we saw one.
Omelite, where are you getting that reference from, I can't seem to find it.
So does "death spells" and "magical death effects" count as "Death Attacks" like the back of the book states (AKA is Phantasmal Killer a Death Attack)?
http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/ultimateMagic/magic/designingSpells.html #death
Phantasmal killer does not state that it's a death spell or effect. As a GM, I'd almost certainly consider the effect on failing two saves to be a death effect, but by RAW I'm not sure whether it should be.
Finger of death also presents a conundrum. It has the [death] descriptor, but since the Pathfinder re-write it no longer slays the victim outright, yet death ward would provide protection.
It seems that if you die as a result of finger of death, you could not be raised with raise dead or breath of life, even though it was not an instant kill attack. Maybe the tag was put there for that purpose, or maybe it was just a 3.5 holdover.
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Thanks for all the responses so far, I greatly appreciate the discussion. I'm leaning toward Phantasmal Killer not being a "death attack" after reading all this information. Hopefully a dev can come in and put it do rest.
Just to cross post from the PFS thread where we were discussing this as well (I most certainly see Phantasmal Killer as a death attack):
You're right it is kind of vague in the case of Phantasmal Killer. I would say, however, that Phantasmal Killer is a death attack, and probably the lowest level one.
PRD on Death Attacks wrote:
Death Attacks
In most cases, a death attack allows the victim a Fortitude save to avoid the effect, but if the save fails, the character dies instantly.
Raise dead doesn't work on someone killed by a death attack or effect.
Death attacks slay instantly. A victim cannot be made stable and thereby kept alive.
In case it matters, a dead character, no matter how he died, has hit points equal to or less than his negative Constitution score.
The spell death ward protects against these attacks.
PRD on Phantasmal Killer wrote:
Phantasmal Killer
School illusion (phantasm) [fear, mind-affecting]; Level sorcerer/wizard 4
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S
Range medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level)
Target one living creature
Duration instantaneous
Saving Throw Will disbelief, then Fortitude partial; see text; Spell Resistance yes
You create a phantasmal image of the most fearsome creature imaginable to the subject simply by forming the fears of the subject's subconscious mind into something that its conscious mind can visualize: this most horrible beast. Only the spell's subject can see the phantasmal killer. You see only a vague shape. The target first gets a Will save to recognize the image as unreal. If that save fails, the phantasm touches the subject, and the subject must succeed on a Fortitude save or die from fear. Even if the Fortitude save is successful, the subject takes 3d6 points of damage.
If the subject of a phantasmal killer attack succeeds in disbelieving and possesses telepathy or is wearing a helm of telepathy, the beast can be turned upon you. You must then disbelieve it or become subject to its deadly fear attack.
While Phantasmal Killer does give you the Will save first, it is a save or die Fort save in the end. The will save merely makes it very hard to use on someone. It is an instant attack, even with both saves. In the end it looks to be that pesky Will save that really raise the question.
I'd say phantasmal killer is not a death effect because it attacks the mind, not the life force. For example, a gnome sorcerer with the undead bloodline could use phantasmal killer on an undead.
Assassins have an ability called Death Attack, but I assume the term also refers to things like the Rogue's Master Strike and the Monk's Quivering Palm.
But really it's such a vaguely-defined term that it's hard to say for sure. Maybe they wanted to keep the definition loose so GMs can add their own or determine what constitutes a death attack on a case-by-case basis?
Assassins have an ability called Death Attack, but I assume the term also refers to things like the Rogue's Master Strike and the Monk's Quivering Palm.
The thing is, I don't think Death Attack(Ex) is a death attack.
How did I arrive a such a nonsensical conclusion. Death ward protects against death attacks; death ward protects against death spells and magical death effects. Death Attack(Ex) is neither.
Assassins have an ability called Death Attack, but I assume the term also refers to things like the Rogue's Master Strike and the Monk's Quivering Palm.The thing is, I don't think Death Attack(Ex) is a death attack.
How did I arrive a such a nonsensical conclusion. Death ward protects against death attacks; death ward protects against death spells and magical death effects. Death Attack(Ex) is neither.
Isn't it ironic that phantasmal killer and the death attack lack the death descriptor and both can instantly kill people, yet the spells that have that same descriptor often don't kill people instantly anymore but instead just do lots of damage?
The massive damage spells that used to be SoD's are victims of copy and paste combined with new rules on how they work. I think the intent is for them to be death attacks, but it would be nice to have it officially addressed.
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Per Ultimate Magic and the Breathe of Life spell. You can use Breathe of Life to bring back a Dead Creature killed by Phantasmal Killer
1.) UM: Phantasmal Killer is an Emotion spell. Not Death
2.) Breathe of Life says it does not work on Death Spells.
Can you point to the page it says that, I'd like to take a peek.
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I couldn't find much, but this is interesting:
A kill spell kills or destroys an opponent outright, bypassing the target's depletable statistics (see sidebar), typically with a Fortitude saving throw. Kill spells are better than incapacitate spells because they don't wear off and there's no chance another enemy can easily reverse the spell (such as with dispel magic). The best of the kill spells still act as damage spells if the target saves, so the caster is guaranteed some effect. Examples of kill spells are disintegrate, finger of death, phantasmal killer, power word kill, slay living, and wail of the banshee.
This is in the section describing the hierarchy of spells. Still does not lead us any closer though. /sigh
I've been trying to figure this out all night. Seems unclear, BUT, Raise Dead et al. specifically can't bring back a character killed by a "death effect" -Not a death attack.
Breath of Life: Creatures slain by a death effects cannot be saved by breath of life.
Raise Dead: A creature who has been turned into an undead creature or killed by a death effect can't be raised by this spell.
Spells with the descriptor "death" are death effects (Ultimate Magic):
Death: Spells with the death descriptor directly attack a creature's life force to cause immediate death, or to draw on the power of a dead or dying creature. The death ward spell protects against death effects, and some creature types are immune to death effects.
Phantasmal Killer is a "fear" effect as per the descriptor, so wouldn't that mean, RAW, that PK'd characters can be raised?
Yep, unless PK said otherwise.
The game designers have defined a death attack as any attack with the [Death] tag or that is specifically called out as a death effect.
If you look at the descriptor in PK it's not a death effect, its a FEAR effect.
I think decapitation would represent more hit-point damage than Breath of Life could restore. How are you decapitating people within the rules of the game?
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Ok, lot's of good information about the actual definition of what a "Death Attack" is and it's relation to the Breath of Life spell.
What about physical attack parameters? For example if a character is decapitated?
I think you can look the limit of Raise dead:
A raised creature has a number of hit points equal to its current HD. Any ability scores damaged to 0 are raised to 1. Normal poison and normal disease are cured in the process of raising the subject, but magical diseases and curses are not undone. While the spell closes mortal wounds and repairs lethal damage of most kinds, the body of the creature to be raised must be whole. Otherwise, missing parts are still missing when the creature is brought back to life. None of the dead creature's equipment or possessions are affected in any way by this spell.
So BoF can work it the head is present and someone push it in the right position on the neck stump before BoF is cast. BoF would cure some HP of damage and fuse the head back.
AFAIK the only weapon capable to sever a head is a vorpal blade and doing that require a natural 20 that is a confirmed critic, so there are good chances that the target would be well beyond constitution in negative hit points and to far gone to be recoverable with BoF.
I think decapitation would represent more hit-point damage than Breath of Life could restore. How are you decapitating people within the rules of the game?
Vorpal maybe?
There is also a third party publisher that put out rules for severing limbs, though they limit it to the arms and legs, not the head. It would be cool if they had rules for severing limbs for more gritty games!
Unless it has the Death descriptor, or the text explicitly says 'this is a death attack/effect', it isn't.
If it says [death], or "This is a death effect," it is a death effect. it is irrelevant how or if it kills someone.
Decapitation is one of those attacks that kills you without reducing your hit points below -CON by any specific amount. Disintegrate has the same problem. So does coup de grace.
Some GMs rule that these attacks reduce you to -CON HP. Others rule that decapitation is much worse than that - it's like taking hundreds of points of damage - and so Breath of Life isn't going to help. RAW is fairly unclear. "a dead character no matter how he died, has hit points equal to or less than his negative Constitution score." It doesn't tell you when 'less than' applies.
Expect table variance. Suppose I have an enemy who is one hit point from death and on my round I shove him in a guillotine and cut off his head. If the GM ruled that this did exactly one point of damage, the minimum to kill him, and he was easily brought back with Breath of Life, I'd be a bit annoyed.
(Although it's a lot more likely I'd be annoyed if I was killed by Coup De Grace and the GM ruled that Breath of Life was worthless.)
My interpretations:
Not Death Attacks:
Coup de Grace, I feel, is not a death attack, it is akin to 'taking a 20' on attack and damage. You've essentially got the freedom to do as much damage as you need to bring the creature to death. As such, Breath of Life/Raise Dead should have no problem recovering a Coup de Grace victim.
The Assassins death attack is essentially a Coup de Grace on a non-helpless victim. Therefore Breath of Life/Raise Dead should be allowed.
Phantasmal Killer is a fear effect. It does not destroy one's life force, it essentially scares them to death - think stopping the heart - Breath of Life/Raise Dead should be able to restart such.
Cloudkill kills the body, as such, doesn't have the [Death] tag, and can be restored to life with Breath of Life/Raise Dead.
Even beheading, physically affects the body, not the life force. Therefore, I also feel it should be able to be saved by Breath of Life/Raise Dead.
Death Attacks:
Death Knell/Death Candle/Enemy's Heart/Malediction, directly extract the life force of a dying victim, and expend it - therefore the life force is truly used up, and Breath of Life/Raise Dead would not work (you could restart the body all you want, and it will not be 'alive'). They do, however, have the [Death] tag.
Slay Living/Finger of Death/Wail of the Banshee do damage, but have the [Death] tag - this means the way they do their damage is by destroying life force directly - if enough 'damage' is done to bring the character to negative CON, it has no life force left, and cannot be restored to life via Raise Dead/Breath of Life.
Circle of Death is a [Death] spell that specifically says it "snuffs out the life force of living creatures", as such, Raise Dead/Breath of Life cannot be used.
Destruction has the [Death] tag specifically says it can only be brought back by True Resurrection, Wish+Resurrection, or Miracle.
Power Word Kill/Symbol of Death are [Death] spells, and cannot be brought back via Raise Dead/Breath of Life.
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Expect table variance. Suppose I have an enemy who is one hit point from death and on my round I shove him in a guillotine and cut off his head. If the GM ruled that this did exactly one point of damage, the minimum to kill him, and he was easily brought back with Breath of Life, I'd be a bit annoyed.
(Although it's a lot more likely I'd be annoyed if I was killed by Coup De Grace and the GM ruled that Breath of Life was worthless.)
A guillotine should do at least 1d10 damage, plus a fixed amount for the weight pushing the blade down, so along the line of 1d10+4, almost certainly with a x4 multiplier when delivering a critical.
As the guy that is guillotined is locked in the perfect position to be killed the guillotine deliver a coup de grace, so the guy would be beheaded but it would suffer something like 4d10+16 hit point of damage too.So if he was a full health, high level barbarian it is even possible that he will not die for being guillotined, with his neck muscles being capable to stop the blade (he can make his saving throw vs the CdG and surviving the hp of damage). If he is a 1st level wizard with 4 hp it is guaranteed that he will be well beyond -con and beheaded.
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So if he was a full health, high level barbarian it is even possible that he will not die for being guillotined, with his neck muscles being capable to stop the blade (he can make his saving throw vs the CdG and surviving the hp of damage). If he is a 1st level wizard with 4 hp it is guaranteed that he will be well beyond -con and beheaded.
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/traps-hazards-and-special-terrains/tr aps/primitive-guillotine-cr-6
Atq +20, 6d6
Remember tha Guillotine is the machine, but the headsman is more effective than that.
Usually uber-strong, using a big monster axe, doing coup de grace:
Great Axe: 1d12 x3
Strengh: 20
Power Attack maybe?
Coup de Grace 1d12+8 x3, average 14x3 = 42
Even a 20 Barbarian would fail a Fort CD 52. And that was a lvl 1 Headsman, imagine how much XP he would have by killing a lot of people ;)
Another thing was brought up by our situation, would the Regenerate spell be needed in this beheading situation? I don't think so since the limb is not gone or lost (and to regrow a head…).
The BOL spell should be able to work in this case since: the head is right next to the body, within the round for the cleric to preform BOL, and if there's a chance for the cleric to roll enough healing points to get the character past his negative Con score.