I presume this is all moot now there's an unarmed fighter archetype in Ultimate Combat? Light armour only, proficient with monk weapons & unarmed strikes, gains an initial style feat for free, gains bonuses with/against various combat maneuvers, and is tough to boot. And with fighter bonus feats, should be able to be built in a myriad of different ways.
Still doesn't get a monk's increasing damage with unarmed attacks, but he doesn't need to be lawful.
And for NPCs, there's always ex-monks.
There is also the Martial Artist monk archetype magnuskn mentioned a bit earlier.
Gets rid of the monk's ki pool and ki-related supernatural abilites, while keeping abilities such as stunning fist, quivering palm, AC bonus, evasion and fast movement, and gains abilities more in line with what one would expect from a more traditional hand-to-hand martial arts combatant, some of which (at least going by their names in another thread, since I do not have the UC book) add to his survivalability (extreme endurance, physical resistance, defensive roll). Plus, he does not need to be Lawful either. :-)
Would be nice if someone gave a little more info on what the martial artist's abilities are about more or less. This particular archetype has made me really curious and the 4th of August seems so far away...
There is also the Martial Artist monk archetype magnuskn mentioned a bit earlier.
Gets rid of the monk's ki pool and ki-related supernatural abilites, while keeping abilities such as stunning fist, quivering palm, AC bonus, evasion and fast movement, and gains abilities more in line with what one would expect from a more traditional hand-to-hand martial arts combatant, some of which (at least going by their names in another thread, since I do not have the UC book) add to his survivalability (extreme endurance, physical resistance, defensive roll). Plus, he does not need to be Lawful either. :-)
Would be nice if someone gave a little more info on what the martial artist's abilities are about more or less. This particular archetype has made me really curious and the 4th of August seems so far away...
Sure. :) I don't think the Paizo people will mind too much, as long as I am paraphrasing:
- Martial Artists can be of any alignment.
- Martial Arts Master: After fourth level Martial Artists monks qualify for Fighter feats of their level, as long as those are applied to their unarmed strikes or monk weapons. Replaces Slow Fall.
- Exploit Weakness: As a swift action, make a WIS-Check + Monk Level vs. DC 10 + CR ( or 10 + Hardness vs. Objects ). If successfull, gain +2 on all attack rolls and ignore DR / Hardness until end of your turn.
OR : Use the same ability as a swift action against creature at up to 30 feet, grants bonus to Sense Motive checks and Reflex saves and a dodge bonus to AC against opponent equal to 1/2 your Monk level until start of his next turn. Replaces Ki Pool.
- Extreme Endurance: Gain immunity to fatigue at 7th level. Gain immunity to exhaustion at 10th. Gain immunity to stunning at 15th. Gain immunity to death effects and energy drain at 20th. Lose Purity of Body, Diamond Body and Perfect Self.
- Physical Resistance: At 7th level, reduce any ability damage, ability drain or temporary ability penalty by one. This reduction increases by 1 every three levels ( 10th, 13th, and so on ). Lose Wholeness of Body, Timeless Body and Tongue of Sun and Moon.
- Defensive Roll: Gain the Defensive Roll rogue talent at 13th. Usable once per day, plus one more time every three levels. Lose Diamond Soul.
- Quivering Palm: Use one additional time per day per level above 15th level, but you cannot have more than one in effect at the same time.
- Greater Defensive Roll: At 19th level, suffer no damage at all on a defensive roll and only half damage if the Reflex save fails. Lose Empty Body.
.........BEST MONK EVER
Very nice! No need to be lawful anymore, which kinda bugged me really. And they apparently keep still mind, which is not a bad thing (bonus to saves vs. enchantment are always good, I should think).
If I may ask, Jason Nelson mentioned an ability called Pain Points in another thread. Is that an actual abilty?
Also, they seem to keep abundant step and high jump (both, and especially the former, require ki points), while losing slow fall (which does not). A little odd that.
Very nice!
If I may ask, Jason Nelson mentioned an ability called Pain Points in another thread. Is that an actual abilty?
Also, they seem to keep abundant step and high jump (both, and especially the former, require ki points), while losing slow fall (which does not). A little odd that.
I'd guess the Pain Points were something from development, because they are not in the final product. And, yeah, still having High Jump and Abundant Step in there is strange. Probably a case for errata. Maybe we are supposed to get those Pain Points for them.
If Jason or someone else could clarify, it'd be highly appreciated. :)
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If I may ask, Jason Nelson mentioned an ability called Pain Points in another thread. Is that an actual abilty?
+ 1 bonus on crit confirmation and increases stunning fist/quivering palm DC by 1. Replaces still mind.
Pain Points (Ex): At 3rd level, a martial artist’s advanced
knowledge of humanoid anatomy grants a +1 bonus on
critical hit conf irmation rolls and increases the DC of
his stunning f ist and quivering palm by 1. This ability
replaces still mind.
Ooh, there they are. And they do seem tasty. So much for still mind though, but I guess the monk's saves are good enough that he should be able to do fine without it.
Yeah, overlooked that. Tshk.
Multiple Attribute Dependency, which refers to a class being dependent on more than two abilities in order to be effective, such as the monk needing good or at least adequate Strength, Dexterity, Constitution and Wisdom scores.
Multiple Attribute Dependancy..they need 4 decent attributes.
[ninja'd by F.Castor]
Multiple Attribute Dependency, which refers to a class being dependent on more than two abilities in order to be effective, such as the monk needing good or at least adequate Strength, Dexterity, Constitution and Wisdom scores.
Actually, more than three, as far as I understand it.
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- Martial Arts Master: After fourth level Martial Artists monks qualify for Fighter feats of their level, as long as those are applied to their unarmed strikes or monk weapons. Replaces Slow Fall.
This is simply HUGE. My mind is spinning with all of the implications for monk builds and DPR. Could it be that I can actually have a monk that can fill in as a front line fighter? Adding wpn spec (and greater wpn spec) and all of the nasty fighter only combat feats opens a lot up for a monk player.
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Multiple Attribute Dependency, which refers to a class being dependent on more than two abilities in order to be effective, such as the monk needing good or at least adequate Strength, Dexterity, Constitution and Wisdom scores.
If you really look at the monk, this has pretty much been disproven. You need a con and dex that don't suck just like a fighter. But the only stats that must be good are strength and wisdom. Even 12s in Dex and Con are 'good enough' for most builds. In a 20 point buy you can still power up a pretty damn good monk.
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Its happening again! mom dad stop fighting....no not again another monk thread! NOOOOOOOO
Multiple Attribute Dependency, which refers to a class being dependent on more than two abilities in order to be effective, such as the monk needing good or at least adequate Strength, Dexterity, Constitution and Wisdom scores.If you really look at the monk, this has pretty much been disproven. You need a con and dex that don't suck just like a fighter. But the only stats that must be good are strength and wisdom. Even 12s in Dex and Con are 'good enough' for most builds. In a 20 point buy you can still power up a pretty damn good monk.
15 point buy is the standard expected point buy for AP's, though. And while you can build the burly Monk, it is not the one which is iconic to martial arts.
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15 point buy is the standard expected point buy for AP's, though. And while you can build the burly Monk, it is not the one which is iconic to martial arts.Multiple Attribute Dependency, which refers to a class being dependent on more than two abilities in order to be effective, such as the monk needing good or at least adequate Strength, Dexterity, Constitution and Wisdom scores.If you really look at the monk, this has pretty much been disproven. You need a con and dex that don't suck just like a fighter. But the only stats that must be good are strength and wisdom. Even 12s in Dex and Con are 'good enough' for most builds. In a 20 point buy you can still power up a pretty damn good monk.
I know the CRB says 15 is standard, but to me this seems an example of where statements don't match the record. PFS and the APs assume 20 point builds, and they seem to be the core of Paizo's business, and the norm for PFRPG play style. Either way however, I don't want to derail this thread.
Thanks for the info on the martial artist. I'm looking forward to making some builds with the archetype. This info you shared pretty much guaranteed that I'll buy the PDF on the 4th and order the hardcover as well.
I know the CRB says 15 is standard, but to me this seems an example of where statements don't match the record. PFS and the APs assume 20 point builds, and they seem to be the core of Paizo's business, and the norm for PFRPG play style. Either way however, I don't want to derail this thread.
Thanks for the info on the martial artist. I'm looking forward to making some builds with the archetype. This info you shared pretty much guaranteed that I'll buy the PDF on the 4th and order the hardcover as well.
You're welcome. :)
But I must correct you on one account: AP's assume a 15 point buy. PFS does indeed assume a 20 point buy, though.
In case you find an official statement that AP's should have a 20 point buy, please share. A lot of my players would be very happy about such an discovery.
*Blinks* Who is fighting? :-)
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*Blinks* Who is fighting? :-)
both mom and dad?
there are literally like 1000 different posts on this same topic, it goes something like this1.guy 1 "why is the monk so crappy"
2. guy number 2 "he isnt"
3. guy 1 yes he is he is MAD
4. guy 2 only if you like min maxing and not roleplaying i think the monk is friking rad
5. guy 1 I have an idea! lets make characters and compare dpr!
6. guy number 2 why cant i use wisdom to damage! like the dervish
yada yada yada
EDIT: plus last time i actually made an attempt to explain the pro monk position magnuskn and I got into my first official forum fight.and was ignored form there on. so i will gracefully bow out as not to offend my fine friend
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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I was looking at my original turnover for the martial artist, and I just flat missed putting in an ability swap for abundant step. I left in high jump as a class ability on purpose, because even without ki it also gives you the auto-running start and the +level bonus to jumping, which is pretty nice. Abundant step, though, that was just a clean "oops."
If you want a simple and wholly unofficial fix for this, simply replace abundant step with an another bonus monk feat (like the ones you get at 1, 2, 6, 10, etc.).
Alternatively, you could give the martial artist:
For an official ruling on what should replace abundant step (which clearly makes no sense for the ki-less martial artist), however, FAQ this post and/or post in the UC Errata thread and ask for the official answer.
I was looking at my original turnover for the martial artist, and I just flat missed putting in an ability swap for abundant step. I left in high jump as a class ability on purpose, because even without ki it also gives you the auto-running start and the +level bonus to jumping, which is pretty nice. Abundant step, though, that was just a clean "oops."
If you want a simple and wholly unofficial fix for this, simply replace abundant step with an another bonus monk feat (like the ones you get at 1, 2, 6, 10, etc.).
Alternatively, you could give the martial artist:
For an official ruling on what should replace abundant step (which clearly makes no sense for the ki-less martial artist), however, FAQ this post and/or post in the UC Errata thread and ask for the official answer.
And here I was hoping for a bonus to the Exploit Weakness check. :p Although Improved Pain Points is very nice, too. The Ability Focus feat still does work with Stunning Fist, right?
EDIT: plus last time i actually made an attempt to explain the pro monk position magnuskn and I got into my first official forum fight.and was ignored form there on. so i will gracefully bow out as not to offend my fine friend
Aww, no problem. Just remember, people criticising the Monk for its design flaws mostly love the class and want it to be better at what it should be doing ( which is kicking ass and taking names ). :)
EDIT: plus last time i actually made an attempt to explain the pro monk position magnuskn and I got into my first official forum fight.and was ignored form there on. so i will gracefully bow out as not to offend my fine friendAww, no problem. Just remember, people criticising the Monk for its design flaws mostly love the class and want it to be better at what it should be doing ( which is kicking ass and taking names ). :)
I think we probably got off on the wrong foot last time can we be friends? I am sorry I called you mini glen beck the internet forums does strange things to people. (grins sheepishly, holds out hand )
*Blinks* Who is fighting? :-)both mom and dad?
there are literally like 1000 different posts on this same topic, it goes something like this1.guy 1 "why is the monk so crappy"
2. guy number 2 "he isnt"
3. guy 1 yes he is he is MAD
4. guy 2 only if you like min maxing and not roleplaying i think the monk is friking rad
5. guy 1 I have an idea! lets make characters and compare dpr!
6. guy number 2 why cant i use wisdom to damage! like the dervish
yada yada yada
The biggest monk thread I know of on these boards is NOT summed up by that. I remember step 6 actually being something along the lines of "guy number 2: *Creates a sensible method for calculating how Stunning Fist factors into DPR, as well as perfect strike* *Makes a monk who conditionally outdoes Falchion Fred (baseline optimal 2H Fighter) in DPR, while still meeting "baseline" survivability (saves/AC/etc) for level 10* 'MATH!'"
Not complaining about monk inadequacy. Just making a good monk. If anybody actually READ the "Why do monks suck" (or whatever it was called) thread, they'll realize that a fair bit of the minmaxing community has come around to the idea that monks are not horribly horribly gimped, and, in fact, with Ultimate Combat, I'd say they were very nicely "fixed," though in all the games in which I've participated, I've yet to see a clearly underperforming monk.
So that's
Paladins, Fighters, Rangers, Rogues, Monks, Barbarians, Bards, Sorcerers, and Gish types who have been given a reasonable boost in power, or "fix" over 3rd and... Wizards, Druids, and Clerics who have been given a reasonable decrease in power since 3rd.
On top of that, a Cavalier (who a lot of Dungeon Crawlers don't like, but now has a mountless archetype), an Alchemist, a spontaneous Divine caster, a Witch, a Summoner, a Divine "bard," and now a Gunslinger (who a lot of supposed "purists" get prissy about), most of which are semi-iconic fantasy character types have been made playable, and (aside from complaints about the Summoner being OP or the Gunslinger being too weak, both of which I have plenty of good reasons to disagree with, not the least of which being that my gunslinger beats my Summoner in PvP handily) are apparently relatively balanced vs. each other and vs. core.
Is there anything ELSE these boards would like to complain about, or do you think we can just shut up and be happy now?
I think we probably got off on the wrong foot last time can we be friends? I am sorry I called you mini glen beck the internet forums does strange things to people. (grins sheepishly, holds out hand )EDIT: plus last time i actually made an attempt to explain the pro monk position magnuskn and I got into my first official forum fight.and was ignored form there on. so i will gracefully bow out as not to offend my fine friendAww, no problem. Just remember, people criticising the Monk for its design flaws mostly love the class and want it to be better at what it should be doing ( which is kicking ass and taking names ). :)
np, although the Glenn Beck things was over the line. An incredibly horrible person, that. Nobody I'd ever want to be compared to.
Not complaining about monk inadequacy. Just making a good monk. If anybody actually READ the "Why do monks suck" (or whatever it was called) thread, they'll realize that a fair bit of the minmaxing community has come around to the idea that monks are not horribly horribly gimped, and, in fact, with Ultimate Combat, I'd say they were very nicely "fixed," though in all the games in which I've participated, I've yet to see a clearly underperforming monk.
As I am one who has not tried to min-max the Monk ( I hate the very idea of having to play a village idiot to get the most stat points for the other stats ), allow me to be cross with your statement. My complaints are nothing in the vein of "ZOMG, it hasn't maximum DPR!". Again, they are:
1.) MAD
2.) Bad synergy between class focuses ( i.e. Flurry of Blows vs. Skirmishing )
3.) Difficulty ( i.e. exorbitant cost ) of enchanting unarmed attacks.
The new archetypes do help very much with specializing the Monk into certain roles, but none of them, nor the new feats, alleviate the three problems I cited above.
I'm a Conservative and i don't even like him
np, although the Glenn Beck things was over the line. An incredibly horrible person, that. Nobody I'd ever want to be compared to.I think we probably got off on the wrong foot last time can we be friends? I am sorry I called you mini glen beck the internet forums does strange things to people. (grins sheepishly, holds out hand )EDIT: plus last time i actually made an attempt to explain the pro monk position magnuskn and I got into my first official forum fight.and was ignored form there on. so i will gracefully bow out as not to offend my fine friendAww, no problem. Just remember, people criticising the Monk for its design flaws mostly love the class and want it to be better at what it should be doing ( which is kicking ass and taking names ). :)
Oh, I'm sure no FAN of his by any stretch, but I don't believe he's a horrible person. I've read some of his pre-TV stuff and he seems like a decent enough guy who's been through a lot, and now he's just working a day job, doing what it takes. Sure, his job may be to go on natl. TV and call Obama the Antichrist or whatever, but it's a living. After all, it's the TV producers who gave him a show and a job on the condition that he does just that. The same TV producers who greenlight the "latest, greatest" reality shows.
If anyone's horrible, it's them. But even they're just running a business. Even if they hate reality shows and where they've come to, business dictates that if a product will make you money, sell it. If it just so happens that you have fewer people (i.e. writers, directors) that you have to split said money with, so much the better.
*Stands in front of appearing rainbow*
"Tolerance, something something...blah blah, perspective on other people's...yadda yadda, for a better tomorrow."
THE MORE YOU KNOW...
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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And here I was hoping for a bonus to the Exploit Weakness check. :pI was looking at my original turnover for the martial artist, and I just flat missed putting in an ability swap for abundant step. I left in high jump as a class ability on purpose, because even without ki it also gives you the auto-running start and the +level bonus to jumping, which is pretty nice. Abundant step, though, that was just a clean "oops."
If you want a simple and wholly unofficial fix for this, simply replace abundant step with an another bonus monk feat (like the ones you get at 1, 2, 6, 10, etc.).
Alternatively, you could give the martial artist:
For an official ruling on what should replace abundant step (which clearly makes no sense for the ki-less martial artist), however, FAQ this post and/or post in the UC Errata thread and ask for the official answer.
That's a reasonable alternative as well, something like:
or even
There are lots of reasonable alternatives, but I am hopeful that SOME kind of official alternative will be offered, since clearly leaving a ki ability with a ki-less monk was an authorial oversight.
The bonus feat route is the simplest and easiest solution, but if they want to offer something more specific to the martial artist as a trade-off, I think that would be fine too.
Although Improved Pain Points is very nice, too. The Ability Focus feat still does work with Stunning Fist, right?
Depends on your GM. Some don't allow feats from the Bestiary. I don't know if there's been an official ruling on it. I am pretty sure that Paizo ruled out Improved Natural Attack for unarmed strikes, but don't know if they ever addressed Ability Focus (Stunning Fist).
And here I was hoping for a bonus to the Exploit Weakness check. :pThat's a reasonable alternative as well, something like:
or even
There are lots of reasonable alternatives, but I am hopeful that SOME kind of official alternative will be offered, since clearly leaving a ki ability with a ki-less monk was an authorial oversight.
Well, my vote is for Improved Exploit Weakness, if you get to make a recommendation. :)
Depends on your GM. Some don't allow feats from the Bestiary. I don't know if there's been an official ruling on it. I am pretty sure that Paizo ruled out Improved Natural Attack for unarmed strikes, but don't know if they ever addressed Ability Focus (Stunning Fist).
True enough. The next time I get to play a Monk ( or Martial Artist, I hope ), I'll take it up with my GM. :)
Not complaining about monk inadequacy. Just making a good monk. If anybody actually READ the "Why do monks suck" (or whatever it was called) thread, they'll realize that a fair bit of the minmaxing community has come around to the idea that monks are not horribly horribly gimped, and, in fact, with Ultimate Combat, I'd say they were very nicely "fixed," though in all the games in which I've participated, I've yet to see a clearly underperforming monk.As I am one who has not tried to min-max the Monk ( I hate the very idea of having to play a village idiot to get the most stat points for the other stats ), allow me to be cross with your statement. My complaints are nothing in the vein of "ZOMG, it hasn't maximum DPR!". Again, they are:
1.) MAD
2.) Bad synergy between class focuses ( i.e. Flurry of Blows vs. Skirmishing )
3.) Difficulty ( i.e. exorbitant cost ) of enchanting unarmed attacks.The new archetypes do help very much with specializing the Monk into certain roles, but none of them, nor the new feats, alleviate the three problems I cited above.
You're more than welcome to disagree with any statements I make, and don't even need to ask my permission. Free speech is great!
But we'll talk about vanilla monk here, to make a point.
MAD is so overblown. I've yet to see a good argument for why a monk really NEEDS Dex at all, seeing that they can get comparable AC out of Bracers of Armor +whatever and a good Wis score. That puts us at 3 attributes. And Con doesn't need to be "good," it just needs to not suck, which is true of literally every class (except MAYBE the Synthesist, but that's risky.) So we're at 2 and 1/2. That's about par.
And Flurry vs. Skirmishing isn't that anti-synergistic. I dunno how much the focus is on "skirmishing" as it is on getting one place and locking people down until the fighter types get there, mopping up fools, repeat. The usual attack pattern I see goes "Turn 1: Move action to get in range -> Grapple or Trip something. Turn 2: 5ft step if needed to flank. Flurry face in, possibly with stunning/elemental fists." Added mobility helps them lock down enemies who are distant or fleeing, much better than anyone else can, which, if you've encountered these issues, you know is very useful. You can't do a full attack on round one anyway, so if you're good at maneuvers, it's probably the best thing you can do round one (unless you're buffing, but monks don't do that...)
And yes, it's expensive to enchant unarmed attacks. But it should be, because Amulet of Mighty fists applies to all natural attacks. Maybe you're a changeling or half orc with natural attacks. Should you then get +5 claws, fists, and bites for the same price as a +5 club? I don't think so. It is not, however, expensive to enchant brass knuckles or monk weapons. That's the incentive for using those instead of just unarmed strike (which wins in damage dice at higher levels).
Also, you seem to forget its out of combat usefulness, as many do. It's as good or better than most rogues as a scout. Probably not QUITE as stealthy, but more mobile in any direction (faster, higher/farther jumping, slower falling, and so on). And if you're not using that advantageously in a given campaign, you're probably not trying hard enough.
Now when you add all the archetypes, the monk has other ways to tear up aside from maneuvers and flurries.
Also, if I may be allowed to add -although this has probably been mentioned elsewhere- you could probably make a Dex-based monk instead of a Str-based one.
Of course, it would take a couple of feats more (Weapon Finesse so that unarmed attacks use Dex instead of Str, Agile Maneuvers so that CMB uses Dex instead of Str). Sure, you sacrifice some damage, but gain some AC, better Reflex saves and better ranged attacks, plus better Acrobatics and Stealth checks, while at the same time qualifying for some of the more defense-minded feats, such as Dodge. And there is always Piranha Strike, which is pretty much the equivalent of Power Attack for finesse builds, if one is so inclined.
Also, if you go Martial Artist, you can always get Weapon Specialization and perhaps even Greater Weapon Specialization and make up for that loss in damage due to not having a Str-based build (that is, if I understand the archetype correctly).
I would like to say here that I am not much of an optimizer or min/maxer or whatnot, or even that great a fan of the monk (mostly because of the Lawful requirement, although now with the aforementioned archetype making an appearance, I must say I actually want to play one), just some thoughts off of the top of the head of one who generally prefers agile warriors over strong ones.
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I don't know about there not being enough eastern flavored martial classes.
For core classes we have Barbarian, Cleric, Fighter, Monk, Paladin, Ranger and Rogue with varying degrees of supernatural abilities.
For base classes we add Cavalier and Inquisitor.
Magus could be thrown in with varying degrees of success.
And soon we will have the Samurai and Ninja.
By my count that is 12 classes that can be used in an eastern culture themed campaign that can be focused on combat abilities.
It's just a matter of re-skinning them. The barbarian doesn't have to be a lumbering brute unable to control his temper. Those same abilities could be due to hyper senses, focused combat training, or whatever. And there are plenty of instances where a character just looses control and wrecks mayhem on his surroundings.
Cleric and Paladin can be focused on philosophies in addition to deities.
Fighter can be ANYTHING. Awesome freaking class.
Ranger is great for a ranged or two-weapon martial artist.
Rogue is good at just about everything he needs to be in any culture.
Cavalier and Inquisitor could be reskinned as Samurai, Ronin or anything along those lines.
Magus is a bit more difficult but essentially a sword martial artist who funnels mystic energies into his weapons to fight. I've seen that in martial arts movies.
And add Samurai and Ninja custom designed for eastern flavor. And I can see them working well in western themed games as well. Just drop the eastern trappings, adopt western clothes and weapons and you have a knight and assassin.
All of these classes can be reskinned for any setting.
Also, if I may be allowed to add -although this has probably been mentioned elsewhere- you could probably make a Dex-based monk instead of a Str-based one.
Of course, it would take a couple of feats more (Weapon Finesse so that unarmed attacks use Dex instead of Str, Agile Maneuvers so that CMB uses Dex instead of Str). Sure, you sacrifice some damage, but gain some AC, better Reflex saves and better ranged attacks, plus better Acrobatics and Stealth checks, while at the same time qualifying for some of the more defense-minded feats, such as Dodge. And there is always Piranha Strike, which is pretty much the equivalent of Power Attack for finesse builds, if one is so inclined.
Also, if you go Martial Artist, you can always get Weapon Specialization and perhaps even Greater Weapon Specialization and make up for that loss in damage due to not having a Str-based build (that is, if I understand the archetype correctly).
I would like to say here that I am not much of an optimizer or min/maxer or whatnot, just some thought off of the top of the head of one who generally prefers agile warriors over strong ones.
All good options and it alleviates MAD somewhat. I'd still want a STR 12 or 13, though, to have my Monk have that Bruce Lee physique. :p
Perhaps something like the following (20-point buy, human, no items)?
Str 13, Dex 17, Con 13, Int 10, Wis 15, Cha 10 (Level 1)
Str 13, Dex 18, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 18, Cha 10 (Level 20)
Sure, I suppose one could dump Int or Cha, but I am personally loathe to have any attribute below 10, so not my cup of tea. :-)
MAD is so overblown. I've yet to see a good argument for why a monk really NEEDS Dex at all, seeing that they can get comparable AC out of Bracers of Armor +whatever and a good Wis score. That puts us at 3 attributes. And Con doesn't need to be "good," it just needs to not suck, which is true of literally every class (except MAYBE the Synthesist, but that's risky.) So we're at 2 and 1/2. That's about par.
How about "An agile martial artist is iconic to the general depiction of martial artists throughout fiction and of what we see in reality".
That is an RP reason, if you care to acknowledge that. But just from a mechanical standpoint, having decent DEX is also important for your AC, something the Monk is not exactly renowed for at the early levels.
But mainly a Monk should be dexterous, just from a roleplaying standpoint. Most people I've played with don't envision an iconic Monk as a supermuscled clumsy brute.
And Flurry vs. Skirmishing isn't that anti-synergistic. I dunno how much the focus is on "skirmishing" as it is on getting one place and locking people down until the fighter types get there, mopping up fools, repeat. The usual attack pattern I see goes "Turn 1: Move action to get in range -> Grapple or Trip something. Turn 2: 5ft step if needed to flank. Flurry face in, possibly with stunning/elemental fists." Added mobility helps them lock down enemies who are distant or fleeing, much better than anyone else can, which, if you've encountered these issues, you know is very useful. You can't do a full attack on round one anyway, so if you're good at maneuvers, it's probably the best thing you can do round one (unless you're buffing, but monks don't do that...)
"Skirmishing" isn't just running up to an enemy and then punching him two rounds in the mouth. Skirmishing is staying on the move and harrassing enemies. The problem with that in Pathfinder and D&D 3.5 is that it sucks, damage-wise. The better option is almost always to just stand in front of your enemy and do full attacks.
And yes, it's expensive to enchant unarmed attacks. But it should be, because Amulet of Mighty fists applies to all natural attacks. Maybe you're a changeling or half orc with natural attacks. Should you then get +5 claws, fists, and bites for the same price as a +5 club? I don't think so. It is not, however, expensive to enchant brass knuckles or monk weapons. That's the incentive for using those instead of just unarmed strike (which wins in damage dice at higher levels).
But unarmed strikes =/= natural attacks. You don't have two claw and one bite attack, you have "unarmed attacks" at a certain rate which depends on your level. As such, they count as only one weapon and should be enchantable normally as one weapon.
The Amulet of Mighty Fists only makes sense if you have separate attacks with each of your limbs, which is mostly a monster thing.
And brass knuckles force Monks into being pure pugilists, which again is a roleplaying problem for a class which is supposed to be a full body contact fighter.
Also, you seem to forget its out of combat usefulness, as many do. It's as good or better than most rogues as a scout. Probably not QUITE as stealthy, but more mobile in any direction (faster, higher/farther jumping, slower falling, and so on). And if you're not using that advantageously in a given campaign, you're probably not trying hard enough.
Which is why I didn't make an argument around those factors, but the ones I mentioned, which have nothing to do with those out-of-combat abilities.
Now when you add all the archetypes, the monk has other ways to tear up aside from maneuvers and flurries.
Again, that has nothing to do with my main three complaints.
Perhaps something like the following (20-point buy, human, no items)?
Str 13, Dex 17, Con 13, Int 10, Wis 15, Cha 10 (Level 1)
Str 13, Dex 18, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 18, Cha 10 (Level 20)Sure, I suppose one could dump Int or Cha, but I am personally loathe to have any attribute below 10, so not my cup of tea. :-)
I always assume a 15 point buy. In that case, it'd be:
Str 13, Dex 14, Con 12, Int 10, Wis 16, Cha 10 ( for a human Monk, if one wants he could reverse Dex and Wis ).
That are okay stats, but about every other class will have better values. The problem is mostly here that having those four high attributes is really important to the class, at least with the Paladin taking away Wisdom as a necesary stat could be defended by them still having high Charisma.
Anyway, I'm off to bed. :)
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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Also, if I may be allowed to add -although this has probably been mentioned elsewhere- you could probably make a Dex-based monk instead of a Str-based one.
Of course, it would take a couple of feats more (Weapon Finesse so that unarmed attacks use Dex instead of Str, Agile Maneuvers so that CMB uses Dex instead of Str). Sure, you sacrifice some damage, but gain some AC, better Reflex saves and better ranged attacks, plus better Acrobatics and Stealth checks, while at the same time qualifying for some of the more defense-minded feats, such as Dodge. And there is always Piranha Strike, which is pretty much the equivalent of Power Attack for finesse builds, if one is so inclined.
Also, if you go Martial Artist, you can always get Weapon Specialization and perhaps even Greater Weapon Specialization and make up for that loss in damage due to not having a Str-based build (that is, if I understand the archetype correctly).
You do, and that was part of the intention - to give the martial artist a route toward keeping up damage without necessarily having to max STR, both by using Wpn Spec feats and by allowing them a good chance to ignore any kind of DR (which is another place where Dex builds lose to STR builds, unless they have the correct item in the golf bag of weapons).
The martial artist, flowing monk, and sensei are all intended (in various flavors) to help facilitate non-STR monks (though they also work just fine with a good STR score, of course!).
I'm just adding a note here to say that I'm surprised at how many people go with the 20-point buy. Every Pathfinder game in our gaming group goes for 25.
That may change when we adapt Pathfinder to Ravenloft next year though.
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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BTW, I'd also like to throw out that, in addition to the unarmed fighter archetype in UC, the brawler fighter archetype also makes a delightful martial artist. He still can wear heavy armor if he wants, but in terms of people talking about raw damage he gets a fairly hefty bonus to attack and damage (up to +5 to hit, +7 damage) with the close weapon group, which includes unarmed strikes, and as a fighter can also take WF/WS with unarmed strike (which would push it up to +7 to hit, +11 damage, not counting any magic). Since these abilities are wholly level/feat-based, they work just fine with a DEX-heavy build as well.
Defensively, creatures adjacent to him suffer attack roll penalties and penalties to concentration checks. He also rules at reaming people that try to get away from him.
Amusingly, the brawler might be the only fighter archetype that doesn't trade out bravery, which means you can combine it with gladiator if you want to be flashy about your up close and personal butt-kicking.
Just another arrow in the quiver of people who want to be a non-mystical martial artist or full-body-contact fighter. :)
Every Pathfinder game in our gaming group goes for 25.Do you use action/hero points as well?
Heck no. We leave that for Savage Worlds or other pulp-type systems. If you die in our games, you die. Although there's only been one death in the last twelve months, a druid who copped a few too many attacks from the skeletons in Edge of Anarchy.
As for other optional rules, I'm the only one who uses the trait rules to their full extent, the only one who uses massive damage, and I also have a houserule that each member of a party gains a bonus teamwork feat for every three levels they spend as part of the group.
I'm also the only one who hasn't retconned the Blood War back into existence. ; )
MAD is so overblown. I've yet to see a good argument for why a monk really NEEDS Dex at all, seeing that they can get comparable AC out of Bracers of Armor +whatever and a good Wis score. That puts us at 3 attributes. And Con doesn't need to be "good," it just needs to not suck, which is true of literally every class (except MAYBE the Synthesist, but that's risky.) So we're at 2 and 1/2. That's about par.How about "An agile martial artist is iconic to the general depiction of martial artists throughout fiction and of what we see in reality".
That is an RP reason, if you care to acknowledge that. But just from a mechanical standpoint, having decent DEX is also important for your AC, something the Monk is not exactly renowed for at the early levels.
But mainly a Monk should be dexterous, just from a roleplaying standpoint. Most people I've played with don't envision an iconic Monk as a supermuscled clumsy brute.
And Flurry vs. Skirmishing isn't that anti-synergistic. I dunno how much the focus is on "skirmishing" as it is on getting one place and locking people down until the fighter types get there, mopping up fools, repeat. The usual attack pattern I see goes "Turn 1: Move action to get in range -> Grapple or Trip something. Turn 2: 5ft step if needed to flank. Flurry face in, possibly with stunning/elemental fists." Added mobility helps them lock down enemies who are distant or fleeing, much better than anyone else can, which, if you've encountered these issues, you know is very useful. You can't do a full attack on round one anyway, so if you're good at maneuvers, it's probably the best thing you can do round one (unless you're buffing, but monks don't do that...)"Skirmishing" isn't just running up to an enemy and then punching him two rounds in the mouth. Skirmishing is staying on the move and harrassing enemies. The problem with that in Pathfinder and D&D 3.5 is that it sucks, damage-wise. The better option is almost always to just...
I will not acknowledge RP reasons, as any given character or class can be fluffed in many MANY different ways. For the point about good AC, I understand that without high Dex, the monk's AC will suffer, but at higher levels, you can concentrate on AC-improving items or get a friendly buff caster(as monks tend not to need as much as most classes in the way of gear.
About skirmishes: I'm saying that I don't see "Skirmishing" as part of the vanilla monk's class features. I see increased move speed, but nothing in the way of ranged attacking, spring attacking, or avoiding AoOs, all of which important for Skirmishing. (IMO)
And out of combat stuff is important. After all, if I wanted to, I could make a fair amount of complaints comparing a fighter to a ranger. But whatever.
And if you're a Toothy half-orc, you have unarmed strikes AND natural attacks, both of which are affected by AMF. The brass knucks are there to allow you to, effectively, enchant your unarmed strikes as a normal weapon. If you want to re-fluff that, then I don't really see what stops you from so doing.
And the archetypes TOTALLY help alleviate your complaints. Some allow the monk to be less MAD (esp. Martial artist, Drunken Master/Ghost Monk, and in some instances, Stone Mountain), some synergize (even) better (again, stone mountain, martial artist, maneuver master, and some others). No, none of them give you cheaper enchantment, but I don't see how there's a problem with that, as monk weapons (way more in UC), amulets of mighty fists, shurikens, and brass knuckles all exist.
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The brass knucks are there to allow you to, effectively, enchant your unarmed strikes as a normal weapon. If you want to re-fluff that, then I don't really see what stops you from so doing.
Not anymore. We just had that rug pulled out from under us in the Adventurer's Armory product thread, and it's been said that the new version is going to hold true for the APG version as well.
And personally, I think RP is a strong reason for consideration in class design. When I play a monk, I want it to feel like the characters that inspired the monk. Not Beef McSlabrock or Big McHugelarge.
Thankfully the Flowing Monk sounds like a fix for that on the DEX-monk side of thing. But there's still the inability to enhance unarmed strike at a fair price, and now we don't even have the brass knuckles as a base to reflavor into something that fits the theme.
I'm just adding a note here to say that I'm surprised at how many people go with the 20-point buy. Every Pathfinder game in our gaming group goes for 25.
That may change when we adapt Pathfinder to Ravenloft next year though.
Hell, here in the circle I am running, we are using 15 point buy since a few years. Works out well, but makes building decent Monks really difficult. ^^
The brass knucks are there to allow you to, effectively, enchant your unarmed strikes as a normal weapon. If you want to re-fluff that, then I don't really see what stops you from so doing.
Not anymore. We just had that rug pulled out from under us in the Adventurer's Armory product thread, and it's been said that the new version is going to hold true for the APG version as well.
And personally, I think RP is a strong reason for consideration in class design. When I play a monk, I want it to feel like the characters that inspired the monk. Not Beef McSlabrock or Big McHugelarge.
Thankfully the Flowing Monk sounds like a fix for that on the DEX-monk side of thing. But there's still the inability to enhance unarmed strike at a fair price, and now we don't even have the brass knuckles as a base to reflavor into something that fits the theme.
Oh, great, Brass Knuckles got nerfed?
But, yeah, what Mikaze said. And "I will not acknowledge RP reasons" ends the discussion with you for me, Irulesmost.
Addendum, since it wasn't obvious enough: I won't acknowledge RP reasons as part of why a class is *underpowered* because it makes NO sense. RP is strictly fluff. over/underpowered is strictly crunch. Yeah, a class has *some* fluff inherent, but not much. At all. A barbarian could draw his power from an ancestral bloodline of warrior kings. Instead of getting angry for rage, maybe he closes his eyes for a second, centers himself, breathes deeply, enters a trance-like, tranquil state. Not the same fluff at all, same crunch. A wizard can be an idiot savant from a poor farming village who self-taught his first cantrips from a scroll forgotten by a travelling wizard, or some ancient runes in a forest.
I figure since my earlier statement rubbed you the wrong way, I should go out and say I loves me some RP. I don't always number-crunch, but when I do...it's Dos Equis. Wait, no. When I do, it's because I have a silly, mechanically unreasonable build that I want to play, viably, because it's cute and fun/funny.
You can fluff your monk as McBeefy if that's a cool monk to you, and if it's not, you can make him viable and dextrous. Monks don't do well on a 15 point buy, they do well on 20 pts if you know what you're doing, and any more than that, you barely even need to know what you're doing for them to rock. I'm on the side of you, in that I like the monk. However, you argue for why it's weak and shoot down my solutions. The only thing making it weak is that you think it is and treat it as such. Great man once said he who argues for his limitations shall have them. So those limitations? They're all yours, bud. Hope you enjoy them.
Unrelated!
Big numbers are more fun, I like building my own setting/world/encounters/etc., the more viable builds, the better, and I like removing any possible guilt on my part as a GM for PC death. Those considerations in mind, I give 30 point buy, or stat rollup (nonstandard)
The battles are rougher, though, and I usually (going by fast track, standard, non-handwaved xp award rules) get them through a level in 3 encounters or less. Sometimes they die, but less often than you'd think. My players are mostly lucky, except during "cut-scenes."