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I'm trying to work out how exactly reincarnate works.
The spell notes that your physical scores change corresponding to the new body. You remove your racial modifiers to ability scores and then apply the modifiers for the new race.
It makes no such mention of the modifiers for age, so by RAW, a venerable character reincarnated into a young adult body still suffers from an effective -6 to Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution. I am fairly certain that this is contrary to RAI and should be house ruled, but this also raises the question of whether or not the mental ability score bonuses from aging can be gained repeatedly.
- Does reincarnate remove physical ability score decreases from aging?
- Does reincarnate remove mental ability score increases from aging?
- If either the increases or the decreases persist, can a character gain them more than once from aging again?
I have been told that all ongoing effects are attached to the old body and do not transfer upon reincarnation, including all contingencies and all permanent spells. Is this correct?
And, finally, inherent bonuses. Sorcerer bloodlines and magical books are both capable of granting inherent bonuses to ability scores; it's safe to assume that inherent bonuses from the first transfer because the reincarnated creature keeps its class levels, but there's no guideline for whether or not inherent bonuses from magic items are retained.
- Do reincarnated characters keep their inherent bonuses to physical ability scores?
- Do reincarnated characters keep their inherent bonuses to mental ability scores?
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Man I hate the needless complexity/vagueness of spells like reincarnate and simulacrum.
If you reincarnate, you keep any bonuses to your mental stats and lose the penalties to your physical stats. Mental bonuses gained in this way DO NOT stack. You can gain them only once. You can, however, gain the physical penalties over and over again as your new body ages and you continue to get reincarnated.
There is no RAW to support this, but in all my 3 decades of roleplaying, from advanced 2nd to 3.0/3.5 to 4th to Pathfinder I have never heard of it working differently.
I'm also fairly certain inherent bonuses to any ability score carry over into your new body, but I'm not as sure of that as I am of the above answers.
FAQ'd with the hopes that an official answer will come.
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[list]Does reincarnate remove physical ability score decreases from aging?
Somewhere in the River Kingdoms, a combat-loving arena-fighting leader is using reincarnate to avoid the effects of old age, so it seems that it is intended to eliminate the physical penalties.
Everything else delves into house-rule territory, I think.
I'd rule that it;
removes physical aging penalties
that aging penalties and bonuses for multiple 'lives' do not stack
The bit about mental ability scores, I'd leave unspecified, to give myself some wiggle room.
If the players seem to be exploiting it, I'd rule that their Int/Wis/Cha aging bonuses are reset to their 'new' age category, that each reincarnation leaves the memories of previous lives a bit fuzzy, so that they don't benefit from their previous venerable bonuses, until they 're-earn them' by reaching the appropriate age in their new body.
If they aren't exploiting this concept, I'd let it ride.
Physical or mental, I'd allow inherent bonuses to 'attach to the soul' and carry over to a new body.
Tomes of understanding, manuals of gainful exercise and wish spells are pricy enough that it would feel a bit cheap to me if someone died and came back as an elf and lost those inherent bonuses.
Well, if it doesn't stack it's only +3, so exploitation seems to be a minor problem. Get better bonuses for transforming into a Lich.
Both Ravingdork's unofficial policy concerning age bonuses and yours concerning inherent bonuses strike me as eminently reasonable and the way the rules should work.
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I'm especially interested in knowing how racial traits transfer.
Are all/no Racial Traits of the old form lost?
Are all/no Racial Traits of the new form gained?
Since speed is a Racial Trait for core races it would seem that trait is lost/gained, but what about others?
It is a little confusing. From the wording the mental aspects stay.
Humans:
They make it out big, especially if they have chosen a mental stat for the +2 to "Any Stat" of choice. Sucks if you become one from something else though in most cases.
Half-Elf:
Lose/Gain (lose if you leave, gain if you become)
-Low Light
-Elf-Blood
-Elf Immunities
-Keep Senses
Keep/Don't Gain (Keep no matter what/Don't gain if you become)
-Adaptability
Questionable
-Multi-Talented (75% Opinion is Keep/Don't Gain)
Half-Orc
Lose/Gain
-Darkvision
-Orc Blood
-Orc Ferocity
Keep/Don't Gain
-Weapon Familiarity
Questionable
-Intimidating (75% Opinion is Lose/Gain, possibly )
Halfling
Lose/Gain
-Keen Senses
-Sure Footed
Keep/Don't Gain
-Weapon Familiarity
Questionable
-Halfling Luck
Elf
Lose/Gain
-Low-light Vision
-Elvin Immunity
-Elvin Magic
-Keen Senses
Keep/Don't Gain
-Weapon Familiarity
Questionable
-Elvin Magic
That is it for now. Will be back later.
RAW you keep your mental stats, this is also RAI. If you didn't they this spell would be very hampering as the races who got mental stats would suffer a lot.
RAW you keep your mental stats, this is also RAI. If you didn't they this spell would be very hampering as the races who got mental stats would suffer a lot.If they go from one set of balanced ability modifiers to another, I don't consider that suffering too badly. If you get something you don't like, you can always play Reincarnate Roulette again...
I wasn't exactly talking to you, but you are saying that any race that chooses or gets mental stats looses them in reincarnate. So if an elf reincarnates as a different elf, they lose the +2 to int no matter what.
(P.S. That would be quite the few millennium waiting for age categories to catch you back up.)Also if a Gnome got reincarnated as a Halfsing, which both have a cha bonus the Gnome would still lose the mental stat...
If your worried about people getting bonus stats if they are human or some half race you do need to think about this, why would they WANT to reincarnate? I have right now an entire character revolving around his clerical beliefs that when his body dies it MUST stay dead or he is becoming closer to undead; "all things living must die eventually."
Back on subject of RAW and RAI, everything in the spell says physical body, you keep your mind. It does not say you lose your racial bonuses to mental stats, and it does not give you a chart stating mental stat bonuses per body type you reincarnate as.
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RAW you keep your mental stats, this is also RAI. If you didn't they this spell would be very hampering as the races who got mental stats would suffer a lot.Ouch.
I hadn't noticed that the racial modifiers were removed an re-applied for the physical stats only.
In my case. I remove and reapply physical AND mental traits.
Nevertheless I soon plan to ban this spell as it completely unbalance the game as it should be.In fact the powerful people would all be immortals : whenthey reach old age they kill themselves and then reincarnate into a young body and so on forever....
This is not the case in most if not all campaign settings as kings die and get replaced by the son.
This spell is too disturbing and unbalancing. Resurrection or raise dead or the other hand, do not work if you die of old-age.
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In my own game world, the goddess of death is LN. Despite being a human god, she handles every dead in the world, from lowly goblins up to ancient elves. They are all collected by her servants and sorted and then sent to their final destination. She sends on the souls of those who worship her enemies just as she keeps her own souls, that being her job.
However, the more powerful the soul, the bigger the ping on her radar. So, the higher in level, the faster the soul get's picked up. She herself only shows up when a demigod or god dies or is about to die. But a level 1 soul might languish around for a year, while a level 20 soul might only last a week before being collected.
So, eventually, the whole roulette thing ceases to be viable. The higher they get in level, the quicker they get picked up. She does not like to give up souls once she has them, so all the resurrection spells (reincarnate, etc) require her ok once the she's got the soul (which requires a quest to her realm to get her approval).
The only exceptions she usually makes are for those souls who weren't 'ripe', like children. She prefers souls to have matured so they can make a true choice about where to go. Those she usually sends back to try again in a new body if nobody resurrects them in a reasonable time (by god standards).
On Topic :
To me, reincarnate is the following :
Lose : All physical Stat Bonuses
Keep : All mental Stat Bonuses
Gain : All new race physical Stat Bonuses
Racial Traits :
Lose or Gain :
Size
Speed
Senses (Darkvision, Scent, etc)
Hardy (Dwarves)
Stability (Dwarves)
Elven Immunities (Elves, Half-elves)
Elven Magic (Elves)
Keen Senses (Elves, Half-elves, Halflings)
Gnome Magic (Gnomes)
Illusion Resistance (Gnomes)
Elf Blood (Half-Elves)
Orc Blood (Half-Orcs)
Orc Ferocity (Half-Orcs)
Intimidating (Half-Orcs)
Sure Footed (Halflings)
Magic Resistant (Dwarves)
Relentless (Dwarves)
Desert Runner (Elves)
Dreamspeaker (Elves)
Lightbringer (Elves)
Bestial (Half-Orc)
Plagueborn (Half-Orc)
Sacred Tattoo (Half-Orc)
Toothy (Half-Orcs)
What about traits and feats? based on race.
Traits I mean the other traits comabat, faith Race, Region, ect.
What about traits and feats? based on race.
Traits I mean the other traits comabat, faith Race, Region, ect.
RAW, you'd no longer qualify for a feat. RAI, I think you'd retain the feat if it was a mental feat (like, a spellcasting feat only open to elves or something, something you learn vs something inherent). For example, a feat that lets orcs get a bite attack is a physical manifestation based on race and shouldn't be kept. A halfling only feat that allows the halfling to learn to pass for a child would also be a physical feat.
Some sort of Elven heritage feat that allowed you to gain a racial bonus on Spellcraft would probably be kept, as it's part of his training.
Same for traits. Racial traits that are part of upbringing (mental types) would be kept. Which is most honestly.
What about traits and feats? based on race.
Traits I mean the other traits comabat, faith Race, Region, ect.
RAW, you'd no longer qualify for a feat. RAI, I think you'd retain the feat if it was a mental feat (like, a spellcasting feat only open to elves or something, something you learn vs something inherent). For example, a feat that lets orcs get a bite attack is a physical manifestation based on race and shouldn't be kept. A halfling only feat that allows the halfling to learn to pass for a child would also be a physical feat.
Some sort of Elven heritage feat that allowed you to gain a racial bonus on Spellcraft would probably be kept, as it's part of his training.
Same for traits. Racial traits that are part of upbringing (mental types) would be kept. Which is most honestly.
I did not think there whre retrain rules in pathfinder?
and are We tlaking aboutthe same traits?http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/advanced/advancedNewRules.html#traits
I did not think there whre retrain rules in pathfinder?
and are We tlaking aboutthe same traits?
http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/advanced/advancedNewRules.html#traits
Nope, fighters can retrain fighter feats, but no rules for retraining feats in general. So yeah, you could get hosed on feats if you take racial feats.
And yes, we're talking about the same traits. Most of those traits, even the racial ones, are things you learned when you were young. For example....
DwarvesTunnel Fighter: Caves and tunnels are a second home to you. While underground, you receive a +2 trait bonus on initiative checks and a +1 trait bonus on weapon damage rolls for critical hits (this damage is multiplied on a critical hit).
Elf Race TraitsElves
Forlorn: Having lived outside of traditional elf society for much or all of your life, you know the world can be cruel, dangerous, and unforgiving of the weak. You gain a +1 trait bonus on Fortitude saving throws.
Warrior of Old: As a child, you put in long hours in combat drills, and though time has made this training a dim memory, you still have a knack for quickly responding to trouble. You gain a +2 trait bonus on Initiative checks.
All 3 of these are traits learned from growing up a dwarf or elf, not from being a dwarf or elf (which is why Adopted works, if you are a human raised in a dwarf family, you could end up being a tunnel fighter).
* Does reincarnate remove physical ability score decreases from aging?
Yes.
* Does reincarnate remove mental ability score increases from aging?
No.
* If either the increases or the decreases persist, can a character gain them more than once from aging again?
No. I recommend you use your original race for calculating when you get mental ability score increases from aging, and you can only be in one mental age category and one physical age category at any time.
My recommended racial traits gained or lost in reincarnate by race. If your campaign uses Alternate Racial traits, the alternate treated as the trait it substitutes for. The new character retains his original race for qualification for feats and character traits, except when the feat/character trait was dependent on something else lost in the reincarnation process.
Bugbear:
+4 Str; +2 Dex; Size M; Speed 30 ft; Darkvision 60 ft; +3 natural armor; Scent.
Dwarf:
+2 Con; Size M; Speed 20 ft / Slow and Steady; Darkvision 60 ft; Hardy; Stability.
Elf:
+2 Dex; -2 Con; Size M; Speed 30 ft; Low-Light Vision; Elven Immunities; Keen Senses.
Gnoll:
+4 Str; Size M; Speed 30 ft; Darkvision 60 ft; +1 natural armor.
Gnome:
-2 Str; +2 Con; Size S; Speed 20 ft; Low-Light Vision; Keen Senses.
Goblin:
-2 Str; +2 Dex; Size S; Speed 30 ft; Darkvision 60 ft.
Half-Elf:
+2 Dex; Size M; Speed 30 ft; Low-Light Vision; Elf Blood; Elven Immunities; Keen Senses.
Half-Orc:
+2 Str; Size M; Speed 30 ft; Darkvision 60 ft; Orc Blood; Orc Ferocity.
Halfling:
-2 Str; +2 Dex; Size S; Speed 20 ft; Keen Senses.
Human:
+2 Con; Size M; Speed 30 ft.
Kobold:
Size S; Speed 30 ft; -4 Str; +2 Dex; -2 Con; Darkvision 60 ft; +1 natural armor; Light Sensitivity.
Lizardfolk:
Size M; Speed 30 ft; Swim 15 ft; +2 Str; +2 Con; +5 natural armor; Claw and bite attacks; Hold Breath.
Orc:
Size M; Speed 30 ft; +4 Str; Darkvision 60 ft; Ferocity; Light Sensitivity.
Troglodyte:
Size M; Speed 30 ft; -2 Dex; +4 Con; Darkvision 90 ft; +6 natural armor; Stench (30 ft., DC 13, 10 rounds).
What if you are a human and reincarnate? Do you lose the skill points? The bonus feat? All of these are a little hard to change later. Also if a human socorer (bad spell) used his favored class to get more spells and became something that did not have that feature does he lose spells and then which ones?
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You do not lose feats, skill points, or favored class bonus. In the end, very little is lost. If you had a feat that has a race or physical ability score that prerequisite that you no longer have, the feat just becomes useless until you qualify for them again. I usually suggest the salve of second chance, as it cuts down the randomness of reincarnate.
reincarnate is a great deal for humans they get to keep just about everything and get new stuff cool.
See, I look at the aging effects of being failing body and experienced person, since the experience doesn't go anywhere, the mental stats stay, the physical go, also, I would remove any stat bonuses specific to race.
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In my case. I remove and reapply physical AND mental traits.
Nevertheless I soon plan to ban this spell as it completely unbalance the game as it should be.
In fact the powerful people would all be immortals : whenthey reach old age they kill themselves and then reincarnate into a young body and so on forever....
This is not the case in most if not all campaign settings as kings die and get replaced by the son.
Queen Galfrey from Mendev wants a word with you.
I might be being really silly, but how can I see the relevant FAQ for this question?
There isn't one.
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I'm trying to work out how exactly reincarnate works.
The spell notes that your physical scores change corresponding to the new body. You remove your racial modifiers to ability scores and then apply the modifiers for the new race.
It makes no such mention of the modifiers for age, so by RAW, a venerable character reincarnated into a young adult body still suffers from an effective -6 to Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution. I am fairly certain that this is contrary to RAI and should be house ruled, but this also raises the question of whether or not the mental ability score bonuses from aging can be gained repeatedly.
- Does reincarnate remove physical ability score decreases from aging?
- Does reincarnate remove mental ability score increases from aging?
- If either the increases or the decreases persist, can a character gain them more than once from aging again?
I have been told that all ongoing effects are attached to the old body and do not transfer upon reincarnation, including all contingencies and all permanent spells. Is this correct?
And, finally, inherent bonuses. Sorcerer bloodlines and magical books are both capable of granting inherent bonuses to ability scores; it's safe to assume that inherent bonuses from the first transfer because the reincarnated creature keeps its class levels, but there's no guideline for whether or not inherent bonuses from magic items are retained.
- Do reincarnated characters keep their inherent bonuses to physical ability scores?
- Do reincarnated characters keep their inherent bonuses to mental ability scores?
Making this one really tough.
Basically, think of the Player as the Soul. This spell gives the player a fresh copy of their character. Then, the spell permanently removes the old race option and replaces it with a new race (though you should keep records of the old race in the off chance that wish or miracle returns you to your original form).
As for lost and retained concepts, basically anything part of the old body is still attached to the old body. So all your gear remains attached to the old body until you swap it. Things like magical tatoos probably won't transfer at all. Regarding age, the spell says it creates a fresh "young adult" body, so aging effects would be lost and your body would be that age. Says class features are retained, so anything like a sorcerer bloodline related bonus would be retained. Spells permanently afixed to the old body remain attached to the old body.
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What if you are a human and reincarnate? Do you lose the skill points? The bonus feat? All of these are a little hard to change later. Also if a human socorer (bad spell) used his favored class to get more spells and became something that did not have that feature does he lose spells and then which ones?
In theory, the PC is keeping track of where they are getting bonuses, like bonus skill points, and what those bonuses are being applied to. A human PC should have noted which skill points are racially acquired. They should also note which feats are racially acquired. Favored class bonuses too.
I know, probably an unrealistic amount of bookwork, but that's how it's supposed to work. I'd ask the GM for a houserule if they allow reincarnate and you haven't been keeping track of these things.
Reincarnate is a really fun spell, but it can be a headache for rules interactions espeically if players/GM aren't keeping reincarnate in mind when designing their characters. PFS bans Reincarnate.
For balance if you do ban it, understand that Reincarnate is the lowest level dead raising ability in the game (pretty sure). Only requires an 8th level druid, while raise dead requires a 10th level cleric. Depending on how common death is in your setting, you may want to provide the PCs with an alternative way to raise dead if you plan to ban Reincarnate. Just something to keep in mind, as the GM.
There isn't one.
Oh... It seems to say beside the post that there is one... To the right of the normal FAQ button, it says "Answered in the FAQ." And the FAQ button is gray and disabled.
I see: "13 people marked this as FAQ candidate. Answered in the FAQ. 3 people marked this as a favorite."
Yup. That was pretty common for a while--marking it "answered in the FAQ" then . . . crickets. Haven't seen it happen lately though.
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The description of the spell states it creates a young adult body. That would seem to indicate it does remove physical penalties due to age. If your body is no longer old why do you have the penalties for being old?
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The description of the spell states it creates a young adult body. That would seem to indicate it does remove physical penalties due to age. If your body is no longer old why do you have the penalties for being old?
Basically the distinction here (which is not explained in the rules) is that age for aging effects is determined by the age of the body, not the years your PC has been alive or when they were born.
I understand the OP's confusion, as age can be determined two ways. In modern society, both methods result in same age, but with reincarnation, stasis, suspended animation, or time travel, these two methods result in different ages.
Like the classic time travel age question: Your born in 1980. In 2005 you go back in time to 1985. How old are you? Are you 5 years old because you were born in 1980, or are you 25 years old because your body has 25 years of life experienced? Is age measured by birth date or by years lived?
Or for reincarnate: PC is a human born 80 years ago. Even if they reincarnate as a young adult, they've still been alive for 80 years, which the table in ARG indicates that makes them Venerable as a Human (and very close to their max life). Reincarnate doesn't change when you are born, which is typically how age is determined.
So, technically, Paizo should FAQ their intentions that age for aging effects is determined by the age of the body, not the time the body has been alive. Not an urgently needed FAQ.
As a humorous aside, would reincarnate cause PCs to go through puberty again? Ages match up for human males, at least.
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I have had more than a few PC's play through more than one body via Reincarnate. I use a simpler concept, the soul is the font of Wisdom and Intellect and most of Charisma, the body claims Strength Dexterity and a smaller part of charisma. When one is Reincarnated, I track the age of the soul separate from the age of the body, granting appropriate age bonuses. A new adult body has no age bonus for S,D,Co, but an old soul gets the bonus for WIS and INT as appropriate for their soul's age.
The INT and WIS scores move over to the new body, as they come with the soul. The STR, DEX and CON are re-rolled and the new race's body gets racial bonuses only if they are physical or CHR.
CHR, we decided as a group, works like this: Take the current Charisma (not including enhancements from magic devices or racial adjustments, but including inherent bonuses) times .667 (2/3). Roll 1d6 and add to this result, then add any racial modifiers from the new race. If you have a high power campaign, roll 2d6 and take best result (though we have never actually done that).
Done.
This is certainly not RAW, or maybe even RAI for all I know, but it has served us well! One poor soul in a Greyhawk 3.5 campaign was reincarnated 7 times. So, this system works pretty well and pretty fast and keeps to the spirit of Reincarnation.
JUST OPINION HERE - Not trying to rock the boat.
There isn't one.Oh... It seems to say beside the post that there is one... To the right of the normal FAQ button, it says "Answered in the FAQ." And the FAQ button is gray and disabled.
I see: "13 people marked this as FAQ candidate. Answered in the FAQ. 3 people marked this as a favorite."
That is weird and confusing. I spent quite a bit of time wandering through the FAQs trying to figure out where this question was "answered."
That is weird and confusing. I spent quite a bit of time wandering through the FAQs trying to figure out where this question was "answered."There isn't one.Oh... It seems to say beside the post that there is one... To the right of the normal FAQ button, it says "Answered in the FAQ." And the FAQ button is gray and disabled.
I see: "13 people marked this as FAQ candidate. Answered in the FAQ. 3 people marked this as a favorite."
Not all "Answered in the FAQ" things are actually answered in the FAQ. In order to clear it from their system, a FAQed thread must be "answered". At one time, there was no option to mark something "No Answer Needed", so many things that didn't get answered were marked as "Answered in the FAQ".
Not all "Answered in the FAQ" things are actually answered in the FAQ. In order to clear it from their system, a FAQed thread must be "answered". At one time, there was no option to mark something "No Answer Needed", so many things that didn't get answered were marked as "Answered in the FAQ".
Maybe, but this doesn't seem like a "No Answer Needed" question--there's a lot of confusion about a fairly important question.
Maybe, but this doesn't seem like a "No Answer Needed" question--there's a lot of confusion about a fairly important question.
Not all "Answered in the FAQ" things are actually answered in the FAQ. In order to clear it from their system, a FAQed thread must be "answered". At one time, there was no option to mark something "No Answer Needed", so many things that didn't get answered were marked as "Answered in the FAQ".
Yep. Reincarnate has a ton of issues that can only be houseruled. Alternate racial traits, choose-your-own-ability-score-modifiers, all kinds of stuff. I don't think any single FAQ could possibly resolve it, so I doubt the design team will ever bite that one off.
I think it's unlikely too, though I suppose they could address some discrete parts of the issue. I would normally just hit the FAQ button and move on, but I am confused about whether there actually was an answer that never actually got circulated (these things happen when there's a big website with lots to upload) or, as the poster above implies, saying "answered" was the only way (at the time) to say "doesn't need to be answered." I would be tempted to start a new FAQ thread, but I don't want to be rude. I'm just honestly confused by the status of the issue. But, in the end, it's not *that* big a deal and I can cobble something together for my home game.