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Quoth Sean K Reynolds,
1) Sometimes the rules make redundant statements to prevent questions about ambiguity later. ed-Tables-are

The question is, is a redundant statement missing? Is it needed in that case? Alarm is mentioned in SO MANY TRAPS, I think stating it explicitly would be a very redundant statement.
Note: This is a lotical fallacy, a statement such as the above does not imply it's inverse.

Honestly, I'd have to ask the original author.

Note: Magic traps such as explosive runes are hard to detect and disable. A rogue (only) can use the Search skill to find the runes and Disable Device to thwart them. The DC in each case is 25 + spell level, or 28 for explosive runes.

Based upon this (rather retarded) ruling here is how you make a trap (I can call it a trap, by definition it is one) that is not a trap and cannot be disabled as such.
Alarm (cast wherever, technically it's not a trap, remember.)
Permanent Invisibility(or paper wall)
Alarm + concealed tiger = Trap that cannot be disabled?
(paper wall?)
Just make sure you don't let the tiger get hungry.

An alarm spell trap has a trigger (the spell), no reset, and the effect of noise. IMO it qualifies as a trap.

Though, I can see the virtue (but not the logic... that I call stupidity) of making alarm NOT able to be disabled when not a part of a more complex trap. It does make it easier for the party to keep it's things... and harder for the 'Evil DM' that is seen every so often, to steal all of the party's stuff. As such... *folds up copy of Wizards ruling, slips into backpack*. Well, I don't play rogues.

"Hey, it's not my fault you don't have a character with 'tracking'"
"We go hire a ranger."
"In the woods?"

Note: Magic traps such as explosive runes are hard to detect and disable. A rogue (only) can use the Search skill to find the runes and Disable Device to thwart them. The DC in each case is 25 + spell level, or 28 for explosive runes.

emphasis: each case, indicating a general rule.

Fundamentally, I see both sides. I, as a DM, would allow alarm to be found and disabled because it is a 'trap' by the definition of the word. (And because I like consistency).

Other question: I just had a GM rule in a pathfinder society game that the trait Adopted let you pick the other trait as per your race. In effect, you only get one trait if you choose adopted.

Here is the exact text:
Adopted: You were adopted and raised by someone not of your actual race, and raised in a society not your own. As a result, you picked up a race trait from your adoptive parents and society, and may immediately select a race trait from your adoptive parents’ race. Race traits can be found in other sources — if you don’t have access to a selection of race traits, it’s best to simply pick a different social feat.

I need the official interpretation of this trait.

Ranged Touch Spells in Combat: Some spells allow you to make a ranged touch attack as part of the casting of the spell. These attacks are made as part of the spell and do not require a separate action. Ranged touch attacks provoke an attack of opportunity, even if the spell that causes the attacks was cast defensively. Unless otherwise noted, ranged touch attacks cannot be held until a later turn. t-95

As for the spell that fires multiple, it's a single action to fire them all.
All rays are fired simultaneously.

Provoking an Attack of Opportunity: Two kinds of actions can provoke attacks of opportunity: moving out of a threatened square and performing certain actions within a threatened square

Performing a Distracting Act: Some actions, when performed in a threatened square, provoke attacks of opportunity as you divert your attention from the battle. Table: Actions in Combat notes many of the actions that provoke attacks of opportunity.

An attack of opportunity is a single melee attack

An attack of opportunity “interrupts” the normal flow of actions in the round.

Though... in the chart... this is very interesting.
Use a touch spell on up to six friends Yes

Also, it's not a matter of you 'not getting several AOO's' AOO's are triggered by something. A creature that does not act (for example, unconscious) cannot trigger an AOO. (Sorry, but I can't remember the location of this ATM).
(This makes the spell 'daze' make a bit more sense).
There's a bit about 'provoking attacks of opportunity' at the link. The rest can be inferred logically, but it was explicitly spelled out somewhere on these forums as a clarification (unless my memory is faulty) that an AOO is a reaction, a response to an action.

Color Spray would be TERRIFYING if unconscious creatures provoked AOO's.

If anyone finds the relevant post, please post it here. Thank you. n.n Good luck, and goodnight. :)

From the faq:
Ray: Do rays count as weapons for the purpose of spells and effects that affect weapons?
Yes. (See also this FAQ item for a similar question about rays and weapon feats.)

For example, a bard's inspire courage says it affects "weapon damage rolls," which is worded that way so don't try to add the bonus to a spell like fireball. However, rays are treated as weapons, whether they're from spells, a monster ability, a class ability, or some other source, so the inspire courage bonus applies to ray attack rolls and ray damage rolls.

The same rule applies to weapon-like spells such as flame blade, mage's sword, and spiritual weapon--effects that affect weapons work on these spells.

—Sean K Reynolds, 07/29/11


Emphasis: weapon-like.

Question: why would you provoke?
Answer: attacking unarmed.

Question: Are you unarmed:
Answer: No, you are armed with a spell.

Attacks of Opportunity: Attacking unarmed provokes an attack of opportunity from the character you attack, provided she is armed. The attack of opportunity comes before your attack. An unarmed attack does not provoke attacks of opportunity from other foes, nor does it provoke an attack of opportunity from an unarmed foe.

“Armed” Unarmed Attacks: Sometimes a character's or creature's unarmed attack counts as an armed attack. A monk, a character with the Improved Unarmed Strike feat, a spellcaster delivering a touch attack spell, and a creature with natural physical weapons all count as being armed (see natural attacks).

My guess: The dev's didn't feel the need to post because it's fairly obvious from the material and few people debated it. It's something that was carried over unchanged from 3.5. Additionally, it's been clearly and directly spelled out in the relevant sections. Though, if you were expecting it to be in spellcasting or magic rather than 'combat', I can understand how you would miss it. n.n

It's now looking more complicated, there's something called 'TPA'.
Which rogues can get more of. ociety/general/roguesInPFS&page=1&source=rss

Sorcers have 'bluff', and Clerics with the Trickery Domain get Bluff as a class skill.

So far, what looks good:
Wizard(top), (If only they got the bard spells 'Modify Memory' or 'Glibness'. Though, lullaby with a trait sounds like fun. n.n

Skillmonkey rogues are fun. ociety/general/roguesInPFS&page=1&source=rss
But I'd rather be an arcane trickster, and with the lack of the trait that boosts CL by 2... and no real way to fix the build, that's out. Due to the general weakness of being a Rogue, that's out. Tripping bard is possible, but again, I prefer an optimal character (as long as that character can be RP-ed and have fun).

Elf Wizard build is looking nice. Dwarven Cleric with size bonus to stealth and all the sneakiness to accompany a rogue would be fun. (You're going to laugh, the cleric design is a cleric of Irori with Wisdom in the flesh. He's lawful good and comes along just to watch over the Rogue's shoulders so he doesn't steal anything.). n.n Good for PFS play, not so good outside of it.

Small note: I as the player have the right to voluntarily fail a skill check... so even if my character says, "I'm watching you." It's more fun if the rogue gets away with things some time.

Other builds being considered (possibly before the cleric) is a sorcerer... possibly even a Sage Sorcerer/Arcane Trickster... A fey sorcerer with an animal companion. Etc.

I'm looking to both optimize for RollPlaying and Roleplaying, to create a character who can get the maximum reward for each adventure played, to minimize the risk of death, and to have fun roleplaying. n.n As such... the wizard should be as paranoid as humanly (or elvenly) possible.

I wonder if you could take the Ninja Trick that nets you a Rogue Talent, then take the Rogue Talent that nets you a Ninja Trick, then pick a Ninja Trick.
Ninja Trick: Rogue Talent(NinjaTrick(EX): Forgotten Trick(Ex))

If he had to attack, IMO, a defending weapon would be useless as the terminology is the same.

Amusingly, a wizard can choose a +4 allying sword as his bonded object... he gets it at half price and needs no item creation feats... and then it becomes an even greater target though.

2 birds, one stone.

Also, on the allying shuriken.... dare I? (IN PFS play... if legal).

Alternately, you could take a level in monk, elemental fist, get +4 status enhancements on top of a +1, then wear an amulet of mighty fists. And let them eat +5 flaming vorpal doom. ebook#tabs
D&D rules of the game.

Now the same language exists in pathfinder and D&D 3.5. There have been NO CHANGES, and what's logical for them to assume

Any type of alteration of thought patterns is a form of control. FROM ALTERING MY PERCEPTION OF YOU (charm) to COMPELLING ME TO FALL ASLEEP (compulsion). EVEN HOLD PERSON IS A MENTAL COMMAND TO FREEZE IN PLACE!

hold person:
The action or state of forcing or being forced to do something; constraint.
An irresistible urge to behave in a certain way, esp. against one's conscious wishes.


The power to influence or direct people's behavior or the course of events.
Determine the behavior or supervise the running of.

Look at the definition of the word CONTROL, it's a lot more open than even I thought. So charm is covered because it alters your behavior (control) towards the party in question (you are their friend).


Sleep, Enchantment, COMPULSION.
IT FORCES YOU, (a force is a type of influence) to go to sleep.

Also, if you look at sleep, it's a very VERY strong spell, you can walk up to someone and coupe-de-grace them while under it's effects.
It is a form of mental control as it influences them to sleep and changes the course of events. (Because of a mental effect, they are no longer fighting you).

It isn't raw until they faq it.
... that sounded wrong. XD
And they did. ebook#tabs
Sorry for thread necro-ing. There should be a way exclude rules threads from searches.

I see the point of the developer if the spell stops the mental commands (other than those cast with the spell it's self) from passing. ebook#tabs

Monk-Ki King: Quinngong Monk of the Four WInds.

Aspect of the Monkey.

Traits: Stealthy Escape (use Slight of Hand in place of

Strange thought: Lawful doesn't mean that you have to follow all laws. For instance, pirates were ordered to attack the ships of other countries at sea. A pirate can be lawful especially if in service of her majesty.
Just a thought.

Monkey King two:
Rakshasa sorcerer.

Admittedly, with both characters you don't get to be a monkey until 8th level... unless you wear a hat of disguise.

Lawful Evil Cleric of Sarenrae.
Sarenrae: "I believe that every creature can be redeemed, even you."
"You know... when I said I'd take powers from anyone under /almost/ any terms... I didn't mean..."
"The terms are simple, perform no evil acts from now on."
"I cannot... if it is necessary to kill someone to preserve my life, I will. However, I will agree to perform only Good acts, Non-evil acts, Necessary acts, and acts necessary for the greater good from now on."
"That's.... there will be some terms on the non-evil acts."
"And one more, you must agree to try to save those who have fallen to darkness like yourself if you can?"
"I agree, My word is my bond. Will you accept?"
"Gladly, by the way... aren't you one like yourself?"
"I... why you... are you secretly lawful?"
She smiles knowingly...
"Well, if you're going to be outsmarted... might as well be by a God. My word is my bond, I will save my own soul..." His head tilts slightly, "if I can."
Her smile becomes a radiant light and she vanishes.

"Aw c'mon... I requested 8 inflict spells today... SHE ONLY GAVE ME TWO!!!!""
Ftr: "What did she give you for the rest."

"And the inflict lights came with a label 'for emergency use only'."
Ftr: "HA HA HA HA HA, you're such a kidder."
"I'M NOT KIDDING." He produces a glowing piece of paper.
Ftr: "Oh..."
"I think I'm on probation or something."
Ftr: "So what now?"
"Well, meat shield, you go a whackin, and I make sure you don't die."
Ftr: "Sounds good to me."
"And we should probably try to not kill things... if we can."
Ftr: "And there goes the fun."

The reason people keep the mental bonuses is likely common sense and functionality, it doesn't make sense for a creature to become less intelligent PERMANENTLY as a result of a spell and your wizard may, in fact, be depending on those bonuses. And he may well get screw'd by reincarnate, so it's unfair to screw the PC TWICE. (I know I'd be mipphed... if it was too bad, I'd probably either refuse to return [IC] or... hmm?)

It is entirely possible for someone to quit the game over a bad reincarnate if their character no longer plays the same and it saps some of the fun out of it.

It would be so much simpler if, under aging, it said, "You gain a +1 age bonus to your int/wis/cha" "At venerable this increases to..." Etc... That way they would be a typed bonus and would NEVER EVER POSSIBLY STACK.

By common sense they should not stack.
If the player argues otherwise and says RAW, glare at him and explain that technically, "I would be justified in removing the aging penalty entirely as you are reincarnated as an ADULT who incurs no bonuses. This area of the spell is ambiguous and either interpretation could be valid. (Well, not imo, but it's as strong an argument as the players."

That said, the spell is called 'reincarnate', it's perfectly reasonable for his 'past life' to be 'hazy'.

1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.

Question: To be more specific. Does this mean a wizard can cast 'Create Water' using a properly created Orange Prism Ioun Stone?

Does this mean a cleric can cast Prestidigitation or Arcane Mark with an Orange Prism Ioun Stone?

I'm also specifically asking for Pathfinder Society (really should make a thread there). n.n

Has this been faq-ed yet? Needs to be explained for the pathfinder game as well.

Actually, I've already seen several people who thought of the same character idea's I did and regretted it. One made a cleric and specced him wrong, etc. I'm the type who would stubbornly trudge along with the character I can't have fun with, until I realize I should have just started over again at my 3rd mission, and then I'd quit entirely because I'd lose too much

I'm an optimizer, and I know I won't play something suboptimal enjoyably.

Honestly, there are lots of ways to play an optimized character (or even a character that's too strong) fun. One way I'm particularly partial to is being completely insane.

Trapfinding is necessary, it just seems that they (suboptimally) moved the

New character designs: Summoner with 'Child of the Streets' at a certain level uses the 'Skilled' option (and the class feather that gives them an evolution point) to get +8 to stealth.
"Did the guy controlling the giant monster just vanish?"
"Is it still trying to kill us?"
"Screw this, I'm outta here."

Total stealth bonus would be +9 (8 racial, 1 trait). +3 bonus for skill ranks, average roll would be level + 12. XD
The rogue: "What the? Oh he's gooood." Minimum 10th level though.

Similar can be done with 'Evolved Familiar' (less one, plus size) +8 size, +8 racial, total +16)

Another fun build, cleric optimizing for Stealth.
Wisdom in the Flesh (use wisdom instead of Dex, and it's a class skill).
Armor Expert (reduce armor check by one).
Get trait bonus with additional feat

Sadly, Grippli aren't allowed, but dwarf would do fine for a cleric.
Magic Resistant is fun... As a cleric they work, as SR doesn't interfere with one's own spells.

The dwarf glares across the table. "Life is short, and so's my temper. If ye say one more word, I shall prove both."
"Aren't you supposed to heal people."
"RAAA" the Dwarf roars, the tavern jumps and the pointy eared CENSORED.

"I'll not be startin' nothin', but OOOOO will I be finishin' it."

The character is a dwarf, zionist (thinks dwarves are better than everyone else), gender biased (thinks his gender is better, but will back down on this one if challenged with authority or a contest of skill, of which he'll accept any challenge), and

There hasn't been much discussion about building an optimal cleric for pathfinder.

Second character idea: A wizard (either gnome, halfling, or elf), child of the streets (has slight of hand as an in-class skill) wizard with a propensity for pickpocketing.
And likely

***Rules question, I considered statting him out as a thief. I noticed in the Piazo PRD under 'Explosive Runes' it said that a rogue with trapfinding and only a rogue with trapfinding can find and disable explosive runes.
So using my second trait to get 'disable device' and/or search would be rather useless.
That said, there is a discussion on another board about how trapfinding isn't necessary anymore.

Third Question: Does anyone play the (suboptimal?) rogue?

Third character idea. Either a sage sorcerer/Arcane Trickster or a Fey Wildblooded

I'm also looking to optimize by minimum number of books required as $$$ are short.

Ninja Doesn't optimize well, but I thought about taking the ninja trick that lets me get a rogue talent and taking 'Ki Pool' to boost my ki pool by my wis modifier. Then possibly taking Grit and 'No Name' to get +20 to one disguise check once a day. A cahracter concept I had where you're suddenly facing yourself... and the you in the mirror pulls out a gun and tries to shoot you.
Inspired by the song 'with a thousand lies and a big disguise, hit em right between the eyes.

Final Character thought: I like the tattooed familiar. Either a scroll wizard with Eldritch Heritage to get tattooed familiar, or... a sage wizard taking Eldritch Heritage to get Tattoo Familiar later, or... if both Archetypes can be mixed, a Tattooed Sage (one trait replaces arcane bond with a 1st level ability, then the tatooed replaces that first level ability with with Tattoo Familiar. It's not /technically/ the same ability that was replaced, but I'm rules lawyering. XD)

Sorry if this is a lot, I'm looking for opinions on the characters and how well they'll play, rules glitches/hangups, and any other problems these builds might encounter.