Because there doesn't have to be. Skills are tied to the type of hit dice you have, because those hit dice are derived from your class levels. Creatures who have Outsider hit dice, effectively have "Outsider" class levels and get the skills tied to this virtual class. If you don't have the hit dice, you don't have the Outsider class and your skills, saves, and hit dice all derive from your class levels.Only if they have Outsider Hit Dice. Which the tielfing, asimar, and other "native" Outsiders do not. The skills are solely by class description, and whatever the direct race entry would grant.This is true per weapon proficiencies as per James Jacobs' quote, linked to above.
I can't find anything saying that's the case for what skills are class skills, however.
There's nothing stating that you need at least 1 racial Hit Die for a creature type's list of class skills to "kick in" for a creature that I'm aware of. You have the type, you have its class skill list, and it's applied to your skill selection even if they come from a class (since the source of a class skill doesn't matter, you still gain the +3 bonus).
Whether or not it is strictly "needed," at this point a rules errata would help everyone's sanity. ;D
As creatures of the Outsider type, do tieflings (and aasimars, ifrits, oreads, sylphs, and undines) have the class skills of the Outsider type as class skills? It sounds silly to put it that way, but the rules are silent on the issue of non-humanoid PC races and creature type class skills. By this argument, a tiefling of any class would have Bluff, Craft, Knowledge (planes), Perception, Sense Motive, and Stealth as class skills (I'm writing off the clause about having four extra class skills, since those are never specified for Outsiders with no racial Hit Dice that take class levels).
The same thing goes for weapon proficiencies. By definition, are all tieflings (as Outsiders) proficient with all simple and martial weapons?
These are relatively minor questions overall, and the answers seem clear (the native subtype is silent on the issue as well, for what it's worth), but I wanted to ask what you guys thought. Are these "hidden benefits" for anyone playing an Outsider PC race?
I'm pretty sure if you have no racial hit dice, you can't take a level of "outsider" -- thus, you can't get those class skills added to your list. If you had racial hit dice, then yeah, you'd get those skills added to your class skill list.
You don't need to take a level of anything to gain your creature type's class skills. Simply having the type denotes that they're class skills for you.
But your creature type's class skills are determined by having racial hit dice. If you have no racial hit dice, you get no class skills, skill ranks with those skills, or anything involving those skills.
If what you're saying is true, you should also get the following:
• Skill points equal to 6 + Int modifier (minimum 1) per Hit Die.
So either you get:
* The class skills plus skill points equal to 6 + Int modifier. So a rogue tiefling would get 14 + Int modifier skill points per level.
or
* No racial hit die class skills plus no racial hit die skill points. So a rogue tiefling would get 8 + Int modifier skill points per level.
You can't have one part of that rule and not the other. . .
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I can't find it, but I would swear I saw a post where James said the 'unclearness' comes from the text only in the humanoid entry, because they didn't want to repeat it, due to rarity.
0 HD 'monsters as PCs' *only* get what's in their racial entry. (And immunities of their type of course)
(amusingly, in 3.x skills weren't in question, but WotC said that you got racial proficiencies, so planetouched did get all martial weapons, and Elan were proficient in all simple weapons)
But your creature type's class skills are determined by having racial hit dice.No, they aren't.
The number of skill points you get is determined by your Hit Dice (and your Intelligence bonus) but the type itself determines your list of class skills.
Why do you think you get one of those things but not the other?
• Skill points equal to 6 + Int modifier (minimum 1) per Hit Die. The following are class skills for outsiders: Bluff, Craft, Knowledge (planes), Perception, Sense Motive, and Stealth. Due to their varied nature, outsiders also receive 4 additional class skills determined by the creature's theme.
So, in your mind, it says:
• Skill points equal to 6 + Int modifier (minimum 1) per Hit Die, but only for racial hit dice. The following are class skills for outsiders: Bluff, Craft, Knowledge (planes), Perception, Sense Motive, and Stealth. Due to their varied nature, outsiders also receive 4 additional class skills determined by the creature's theme. These apply for any type of hit dice.
You can't have it both ways. Either a tiefling gets 6 extra skills a level or you don't get class skills without racial hit dice.
In your mind you're incorrectly confusing skill points with class skills.
You don't get skill points from a given source unless you have Hit Dice - Hit Dice generate skill points.
From the context of the text we're talking about, hit dice alone *DO NOT* generate skill points. Only racial hit dice generate racial skill points. That entire section is only discussing racial hit dice obtained from taking "levels" in outsider -- or outsider racial hit dice.
Why would a section talking only about racial hit dice mention anything about class hit dice?
What I don't understand is why you keep mentioning that, since the next sentence has no "per Hit Die" clause. Saying "The following are class skills for outsiders: Bluff, Craft, Knowledge (planes), Perception, Sense Motive, and Stealth." is categorical. Those skills are class skills for Outsiders. Tieflings are Outsiders. Ergo, those are class skills for them.
Hit Dice have nothing to do with that whatsoever.
Tieflings may indeed be outsiders. But they are defined by their class levels.
Tieflings are defined by their class levels—they do not possess racial HD.
If they are defined only by class levels, that means they do not gain any benefit from being outsiders. Otherwise, they would be defined by class levels *AND* the description for outsiders in the bestiary. The text says they are only defined from class levels alone.
The text also indicates indirectly that to gain benefit from the outsider entry in the bestiary, they must possess racial hit dice.
However, as I mentioned above, a class skill list is not defined by Hit Dice. It's a function of their creature type.
Then the sentence:
Tieflings are defined by their class levels—they do not possess racial HD.
suddenly becomes
Tieflings are defined by their class levels (except for class skills)—they do not possess racial HD.
The same way that we use their type (and subtype) for how they're resurrected, and that they eat, breathe, and sleep, we also take into account all other aspects of the Outsider type that aren't related to Hit Dice, such as their class skills.
But those elements don't define a character. They're simply saying, "don't do anything special". Yes, native outsiders have a different type than humanoid (which helps with several spells). But that type designation should be all you need. You don't need to read the outsider type to determine anything about this character. In fact, other than the tiefling definition itself, all of this content is in the beastiary. It's intended for creature that have racial hit dice of a specific type.
It's the same way we would take their weapon proficiencies into account if James Jacobs hadn't explicitly said not to. But there's no such explicit saying for class skills.
Just because he didn't apply it to every part of the outsider's description doesn't mean it shouldn't be applied that way. It really starts to break down once you look at individual elements of a monster's type.
For instance,
Proficient with whatever type of armor (light, medium, or heavy) it is described as wearing, as well as all lighter types. Outsiders not indicated as wearing armor are not proficient with armor. Outsiders are proficient with shields if they are proficient with any form of armor.
So, what happens if a tiefling wizard starts play with medium armor. Does he get proficiency in medium and light armor? And does he suddenly get shield proficiency if he wears the armor initially?
This whole section applies to creatures with racial hit dice in outsider. . . just like the skills section. . . just like the class skills section.
The point is moot - there's no tiefling wizard that's described as wearing medium armor, as there's no tiefling wizard that's "described" in the Bestiary, period.
I start a tiefling wizard. He's wearing medium armor.
Why does that need to be defined in the bestiary? If class skills are tied to being an outsider, the armor proficiencies are also tied to being an outsider. This outsider just happens to be wearing medium armor when he is created.
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As it was already pointed out, if Tieflings were intended to keep their Outsider skills as class skills, they would have been written out as such in every NPC Tiefling that has been published so far.
Besides, I don't know a single person who actually plays them that way, unless they're purposefully trying to take advantage of the system and the GM (my brother tried this once).
Because it states that it must be what they are "described" as wearing. There's a reason they include that caveat.
If you want to say that that can mean "described" anywhere, in any piece of writing that you or anyone else may jot down, that's your interpretation, but I don't think you'll find a lot of common ground on that one. ;-p
Yeah, when you create a monster, you give it a certain set of properties. But the monster, unless otherwise indicated, inherits a set of properties from the type.
In the case of tiefling, there is an "otherwise indicated" text. And that should lead you to realize that the type doesn't define the creature -- the creature's class does. The only thing a player should really care about when it comes to the type is simply knowing what it is.
Otherwise, you can describe yourself wearing medium armor -- and you gain medium armor proficiency.
And for the record, I wouldn't use "common ground" in argument where you're universally regarded as incorrect (:
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As it was already pointed out, if Tieflings were intended to keep their Outsider skills as class skills, they would have been written out as such in every NPC Tiefling that has been published so far.
See my earlier comments on 3.x Monks not being proficient with their unarmed strikes.
Just because the publisher ignores a rule when publishing stat blocks does not mean the rule reads differently. According to the rules, every Tieflng published is in error.
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Otherwise, you can describe yourself wearing medium armor -- and you gain medium armor proficiency.
Man, I wish I could do that. Maybe I can do it for my character, but I certainly couldn't just describe myself wearing my IOTV and automatically become proficient in it.
And for the record, I wouldn't use "common ground" in argument where you're universally regarded as incorrect (:
Universally?
Man, I wish I could do that. Maybe I can do it for my character, but I certainly couldn't just describe myself wearing my IOTV and automatically become proficient in it.
Yeah, I wish I could do that too ):
Universally?And for the record, I wouldn't use "common ground" in argument where you're universally regarded as incorrect (:
OK, not universally. I think out of 11 or 12 unique posters in this thread, 9 of them fully agree with racial hit dice = class skills only. 1 poster was persuaded that it might be possible to get outsider class skills just by being a tiefling and 1 poster said RAW it was allowed to get the class skills but RAI it was not. . .
Hey, I didn't bring up "common ground" (:
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Tieflings are defined by their class levels—they do not possess racial HD. They have the following racial traits.+2 Dexterity, +2 Intelligence, –2 Charisma: Tieflings are quick in body and mind, but are inherently strange.
Darkvision: Tieflings see in the dark up to 60 feet.
Skilled: Tieflings have a +2 racial bonus on Bluff and Stealth checks.
Spell-Like Ability: Tieflings can use darkness once per day as a spell-like ability. The caster level for this ability equals the tiefling's class level.
Fiendish Resistance: Tieflings have cold resistance 5, electricity resistance 5, and fire resistance 5.
Fiendish Sorcery: See above.
Languages Tieflings begin play speaking Common and either Abyssal or Infernal. Tieflings with high Intelligence scores can choose any of the following: Abyssal, Draconic, Dwarven, Elven, Gnome, Goblin, Halfling, Infernal, and Orc.
First, it states they are defined by their class levels, not creature type. If it was intended for them to gain the benefits of the Outsider type, that statement wouldn't be there. Then it explicitly states what it does get for being a tiefling.
I don't see any confusion.
I don't see any confusion.
*shrug*
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You emboldened the wrong parts of that first sentence. Observe:Tieflings are defined by their class levels—they do not possess racial HD. They have the following racial traits.So we're clearly told that they don't gain racial Hit Dice, and by extension anything that comes from it, including skill points. With nothing talking about aspects beyond Hit Dice, they gain every other function of their creature type, including class skills.
I don't see any confusion either.
All I see is that it simply says they don't have racial HD. Class skills may be a function of the creature type, but it explicitly states that the Tiefling is defined by it's class levels, ie not it's creature type. There would be no need to state it, if it were the case.
Alas, I'm reminded of this. Im going to agree to disagree, and step away. We both obviously have our own interpretations, and it works for each of us.
Game on! =)
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Gentlemen (and any ladies)
I beleive the answer is simply that the section is poorly written.
Let's look at the whole.
Creature Types
Each creature has one type, which broadly defines its abilities. Some creatures also have one or more subtypes, as described on pages 310–314. A creature cannot violate the rules of its subtype without a special ability or quality to explain the difference—templates can often change a creature’s type drastically.
So we now have a working definition of a Type. Interesting language quote, apparently we can violate the Type without a 'special ability or quality to explain the difference' since that sentence refers to the subtype
Here's where we get down to quibbling.
An outsider has the following features.
• d10 Hit Dice.
• Base attack bonus equal to total Hit Dice (fast progression).
• Two good saving throws, usually Reflex and Will.
• Skill points equal to 6 + Int modifier (minimum 1) per Hit
Die. The following are class skills for outsiders: Bluff,
Craft, Knowledge (planes), Perception, Sense Motive,
and Stealth. Due to their varied nature, outsiders also receive 4 additional class skills determined by the creature’s theme.
Now what seperates all the types from the Humanoid type? *this*
Humanoids with 1 Hit Die exchange the features of their humanoid Hit Die for the class features of a PC or NPC class. Humanoids of this sort are typically presented as 1st-level warriors, which means they have average combat ability and poor saving throws. Humanoids with more than 1 Hit Die are the only humanoids who make use of the features of the humanoid type.
emphasis mine.
Now RAI, it's clear from other comments and builds that the intent other types of 1 HD critters replace that 1 HD if they are PCs. It was just not spelled out.
(Personally, since Class dice =/= Racial hit dice, I read it as they don't get the skills since they have no levels in 'outsider class', but that's reading the RAW. It's the same reason a human/half-dragon figther 12 has a 1d6 BW)
Traits aside
Since the traits listed in the 'As characters' description are the only traits they get, does this mean that PC Tieflings/Aasimar, etc don't need to eat breathe or sleep? :-)
Since the traits listed in the 'As characters' description are the only traits they get, does this mean that PC Tieflings/Aasimar, etc don't need to eat breathe or sleep? :-)
*sigh* I knew that would come up q:
Yes, Tieflings don't need to eat, breathe or sleep. That's not defined by the class, and the race's description says that the tiefling is defined by class, not type (type info pertains exclusively to racial hit dice). If you don't apply the quoted text from the humanoid type description to the outsider description, I'm afraid RAW, they neither eat, breathe, or sleep.
You went there (:
As it was already pointed out, if Tieflings were intended to keep their Outsider skills as class skills, they would have been written out as such in every NPC Tiefling that has been published so far.Has anyone checked every single NPC tiefling that's been published so far?
Besides, I don't know a single person who actually plays them that way, unless they're purposefully trying to take advantage of the system and the GM (my brother tried this once).I do know people who play that way. Not that that matters, as rules aren't by majority vote; they're by what's written in the book.
I don't understand why people respond to "but the book says this" with "we don't do it that way." That's a legitimate house rule, but I'm not asking about house rules.
I checked most of the ones in an AP full of teiflings. Now there is some chance that every one I checked happened to be done incorrectly, but that is an astronomically small chance. If you think my luck is that bad pick one and reverse engineer it. Remember you are also banking on the fact that an entire AP was done incorrectly since I checked more than one book. I am sure an entire group of professional would miss something like that since the books are proofed more than once before they are shipped. A monster can be done, but one monster for an entire AP, even with multiple people checking it, I don't think so.
Paizo has also said they have an in house program they use to make stat block checking go faster so the devs, and the program would have to have missed it also, just say.edit: I don't need to check every teifling ever. I only need to check ones based on PF rules. What percentage would it take to convince you anyway? I am sure if I posted 1000 that went by my interpretation, and one that went by yours you would try to argue that the one was right. 100% of the ones I did check went by the way I interpreted it. Rogues in pathfinder get a lot of skills so I did not check those. You have to use a class that gets a small amount of skills like clerics and fighter to make the comparison. Kingmaker, the second AP does not have any teiflings to my knowledge. That leaves only CoT, so while I did not check all of them. I checked most of them.
You are free to double check behind me, and if you post the results here show your work like I did by breaking it down.
As it was already pointed out, if Tieflings were intended to keep their Outsider skills as class skills, they would have been written out as such in every NPC Tiefling that has been published so far.See my earlier comments on 3.x Monks not being proficient with their unarmed strikes.
Just because the publisher ignores a rule when publishing stat blocks does not mean the rule reads differently. According to the rules, every Tieflng published is in error.
ToZ I don't know if you are playing devils advocate are not but most people come here for RAI, not RAW. RAW is normally pretty clear. RAW I agree with out, but that weapon issue leads to a precedent that the skills were the intended to go off of class.
WoTC being too lazy to errata a monk to be proficient in his main shtick just means WoTC was being lazy. I think everyone knew that the monk was not intended to have a -4.
PS:If you are playing devil's advocate would you stop enforcing this guy's belief. He seems to be quiet stubborn. We have enough "only the devs can correct me" posters.
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Since the traits listed in the 'As characters' description are the only traits they get, does this mean that PC Tieflings/Aasimar, etc don't need to eat breathe or sleep? :-)*sigh* I knew that would come up q:
Yes, Tieflings don't need to eat, breathe or sleep. That's not defined by the class, and the race's description says that the tiefling is defined by class, not type (type info pertains exclusively to racial hit dice). If you don't apply the quoted text from the humanoid type description to the outsider description, I'm afraid RAW, they neither eat, breathe, or sleep.
You went there (:
** spoiler omitted **
Oh, I know. Like I said, the section could be cleaner. If 'Planetouched as PCs' don't get the traits listed in the type entry (like all MWP) and *just* the traits listed in the 'as characters' entry you could be pendantic and argue that since they don't have the traits 'eat, sleep, breathe' then they don't need to.
OF course if such a player tried that (and survived getting hit in the face with my Ptolus book) I'd kill his character.
"Oh, I'll have him raised, native outsiders can be raised."
"Nope, sorry, that's a trait listed in the monster part. It doesn't say anywhere in the 'as characters section' that they can be raised."
More seriously, I hope to see a revision to the type section to say up front "Monsters as PCs: Monsters, regardless of type, with 1 Hit Die can exchange the features and weapon and armor proficiencies of their type Hit Die for the class features of a PC or NPC class."
Creative Director
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Creatures with zero Hit Dice... like tieflings... NEVER gain their racial skills or weapon proficiencies. Their class skills and weapon proficiencies are ALWAYS determined by their class unless it specifically says otherwise in their specific racial traits (such as how tengus gain access to all swords). The generic creature type class skills and proficiencies with weapon and armor never apply if the creature has no racial Hit Dice.
Hit Dice has EVERYTHING to do with class skills, in other words.
Humans have d8 Racial Hit Dice, but they don't gain the humanoid skills automatically as class skills. Tieflings thus don't gain the outsider class skills automatically either.
As soon as a monster gains a racial Hit Die... he gains his type's class skills and weapon/armor proficiencies and all that. Regardless of what class he ends up being. Which is why allowing PCs of monsters with racial Hit Dice (like gnolls or lizardfolk) is tricky, and recommended only for advanced GMs and players.
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Developer
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Creatures with zero Hit Dice... like tieflings... NEVER gain their racial skills or weapon proficiencies. Their class skills and weapon proficiencies are ALWAYS determined by their class unless it specifically says otherwise in their specific racial traits (such as how tengus gain access to all swords). The generic creature type class skills and proficiencies with weapon and armor never apply if the creature has no racial Hit Dice.
Hit Dice has EVERYTHING to do with class skills, in other words.
So it is written, so shall it be! Also, it's nice to have some official clarification on what it means to gain a class skill. We all knew, but it was hard to demonstrate it to someone not receptive to the RAI.
Creatures with zero Hit Dice... like tieflings... NEVER gain their racial skills or weapon proficiencies. Their class skills and weapon proficiencies are ALWAYS determined by their class unless it specifically says otherwise in their specific racial traits (such as how tengus gain access to all swords). The generic creature type class skills and proficiencies with weapon and armor never apply if the creature has no racial Hit Dice.
Hit Dice has EVERYTHING to do with class skills, in other words.
Humans have d8 Racial Hit Dice, but they don't gain the humanoid skills automatically as class skills. Tieflings thus don't gain the outsider class skills automatically either.
As soon as a monster gains a racial Hit Die... he gains his type's class skills and weapon/armor proficiencies and all that. Regardless of what class he ends up being. Which is why allowing PCs of monsters with racial Hit Dice (like gnolls or lizardfolk) is tricky, and recommended only for advanced GMs and players.
Listed.
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Creatures with zero Hit Dice... like tieflings... NEVER gain their racial skills or weapon proficiencies. Their class skills and weapon proficiencies are ALWAYS determined by their class unless it specifically says otherwise in their specific racial traits (such as how tengus gain access to all swords). The generic creature type class skills and proficiencies with weapon and armor never apply if the creature has no racial Hit Dice.
Hit Dice has EVERYTHING to do with class skills, in other words.
Humans have d8 Racial Hit Dice, but they don't gain the humanoid skills automatically as class skills. Tieflings thus don't gain the outsider class skills automatically either.
But do they have to eat/breathe/sleep? *ducks*
Seriously, could you revisit the types section in Bestiary three to spell that out better?
Great Answer
Thanks James.
Real quick -- since this answers a semi-related question in another thread:
Since level adjustments are gone from Pathfinder, the book states:
There are a number of monsters in this book that do not possess racial Hit Dice. Such creatures are the best options for player characters, but a few of them are so powerful that they count as having 1 class level, even without a racial Hit Die. Such characters should only be allowed in a group that is 2nd-level or higher.
I know the svirfneblin and noble drow jump out as being 1st level in a 2nd level party, but I assume that tieflings, aasimars, hobgoblins, and tengu do not need a level reduction as recommended above? Or is the above PRD quote purposefully ambiguous?
Great AnswerThanks James.
Real quick -- since this answers a semi-related question in another thread:
Since level adjustments are gone from Pathfinder, the book states:
There are a number of monsters in this book that do not possess racial Hit Dice. Such creatures are the best options for player characters, but a few of them are so powerful that they count as having 1 class level, even without a racial Hit Die. Such characters should only be allowed in a group that is 2nd-level or higher.I know the svirfneblin and noble drow jump out as being 1st level in a 2nd level party, but I assume that tieflings, aasimars, hobgoblins, and tengu do not need a level reduction as recommended above? Or is the above PRD quote purposefully ambiguous?
I am too lazy to find the post, but Paizo basically said it was up to the DM to decide this. In other words it is ambiguous intentionally. You might be able to find it by reading one of the many ECL or LA threads
I think they realized there was no flat formula that worked for powerful races, and they did not want to spend time trying to guess at an adjustment for every monster in the book when there are too many factors to make a real accurate number.
I think they realized there was no flat formula that worked for powerful races, and they did not want to spend time trying to guess at an adjustment for every monster in the book when there are too many factors to make a real accurate number.
OK, I believe you. Not the answer that I wanted to hear, but I can understand the issues.
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ToZ I don't know if you are playing devils advocate are not but most people come here for RAI, not RAW. RAW is normally pretty clear. RAW I agree with out, but that weapon issue leads to a precedent that the skills were the intended to go off of class.
WoTC being too lazy to errata a monk to be proficient in his main shtick just means WoTC was being lazy. I think everyone knew that the monk was not intended to have a -4.
Well, you know I love to play devil's advocate. I can argue a position I don't believe in as long as it's amusing.
However, in this case he and I say the actual way the rules are written grant the class skills even without the hit dice. We both agree that it was not intended to read that way, but it does. When you say it doesn't read that way, I will argue against that. Intentions don't come into the argument other than 'Yes, it should not read that way'.
PS:If you are playing devil's advocate would you stop enforcing this guy's belief. He seems to be quiet stubborn. We have enough "only the devs can correct me" posters.
Are you kidding? I'm one of the 'even the devs can't correct me' posters! :P Like JJ's post above. I know he says it is that way, but I say it is not that way.
Are you kidding? I'm one of the 'even the devs can't correct me' posters! :P Like JJ's post above. I know he says it is that way, but I say it is not that way.
<Cast silence on ToZ, no save>
Being a demilich has it privileges. :)
Creatures with zero Hit Dice... like tieflings... NEVER gain their racial skills or weapon proficiencies. Their class skills and weapon proficiencies are ALWAYS determined by their class unless it specifically says otherwise in their specific racial traits (such as how tengus gain access to all swords). The generic creature type class skills and proficiencies with weapon and armor never apply if the creature has no racial Hit Dice.
Hit Dice has EVERYTHING to do with class skills, in other words.
Humans have d8 Racial Hit Dice, but they don't gain the humanoid skills automatically as class skills. Tieflings thus don't gain the outsider class skills automatically either.
As soon as a monster gains a racial Hit Die... he gains his type's class skills and weapon/armor proficiencies and all that. Regardless of what class he ends up being. Which is why allowing PCs of monsters with racial Hit Dice (like gnolls or lizardfolk) is tricky, and recommended only for advanced GMs and players.
Game, set, and match! James, thanks for ending the ambiguity on this issue; I hope that your answer gets into the FAQ (or perhaps even an errata document) soon.
Just to head things off before someone else asks: does this also apply regarding templates that change a creature's type (and don't grant any natural Hit Dice)? Does the augmented subtype make a difference?
Thanks!
If you don't have actual racial HD then you don't get the benefits. When you use a template you get specifically what it gives you, and nothing more. The Lich as an example says you get the common undead traits.
Type: The creature's type changes to undead. Do not recalculate BAB, saves, or skill ranks.
It also says what does not get changed.
Are you kidding? I'm one of the 'even the devs can't correct me' posters! :P Like JJ's post above. I know he says it is that way, but I say it is not that way.
<Cast silence on ToZ, no save>
Being a demilich has it privileges. :)
Just cast it on yourself and walk up to TOZ. . . no save either q: