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After getting a chance to read a good many Pathfinder products, I have gotten the feeling that Desna is one of the most popular, if not the most popular, god in the Inner Sea. I would be interested in other people's take on this.
If this is true, why? As a student of religion I have some background in why religions succeed and others fail. What is it about the cult of Desna that draws people in? What does it say about the people of the Inner Sea that one of their most beloved is the goddess of dreams, stars, travelers and luck? Of course, we have to think about the magical component as well. Does she just pay more attention to her followers than the others?
I look forward to the Faiths of.. series, but I wouldn't mind if Paizo went even further in the future. I would love to see a 32 page book on each religion. Heck, I'd be willing to write them.
Anyone else enjoy this kind of depth in their fantasy faiths, or am I a freak?
I think part of the reason why Desna is so popular is that she seems to be the Deity that best represents 'good and free spirited' types of characters (something very common in pathfinder). That, along with her focuses on luck, travelers, and helping people in need seems to do a good job of attracting attention to her. Also, while there are other gods that sponsor paladins that go out and slay evil things, Desna gives a feeling of constantly helping people in a sort of guerrilla war against evil (especially in places like Nidal where a paladin would probably get himself killed).
I think she's also the most interesting 'Chaotic Good' deity because of her focus on stars, dreams, luck and such. Also, The fact that she's one of the oldest deities, not just another one created by the starstone, gives her more of a feel of legitimacy than some of the other gods I think.
As for a 'Faiths of...' series, I think that would be pretty cool. The campaign that I'm currently in is pretty religion focused, so we're always hungry for more and more information about the gods. I would probably be mostly interested in books on the good gods like Desna and Sarenrae, but I'm sure that people would buy up the rest of them too.
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Desna was also the first deity we covered in our regular series of articles on the gods in Pathfinder Adventure Path, back in the second volume of that line. She's had the most information out about her for the longest.
(The articles about the gods that appear in Pathfinder are generally about 8 pages long, and appear every three volumes, starting with #2, then going to #5, then #8, then #11, and so on.)
She is one of my favorites along with Shelynn and Sarenrae.
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Desna is also a popular choice from an adventurer's perspective. She represents fate, travel, luck and all that fun stuff that almost all adventurers need to thrive. Since most Pathfinder products focus on adventurers and their adventures, it makes sense that she features heavily in them.
Take Sarenrae as a contrast- as a LG deity of justice and Paladin-y-ness, she isn't nearly as popular with many greyer-morality adventurers (i.e., most of them, in my experience).
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Desna is also a popular choice from an adventurer's perspective. She represents fate, travel, luck and all that fun stuff that almost all adventurers need to thrive. Since most Pathfinder products focus on adventurers and their adventures, it makes sense that she features heavily in them.
Take Sarenrae as a contrast- as a LG deity of justice and Paladin-y-ness, she isn't nearly as popular with many greyer-morality adventurers (i.e., most of them, in my experience).
Sarenrae is actually neutral good. She's not really all that paladiny at all, although she DOES have paladins who worship her. She's the most anti-undead and anti-fiend of the deities, though, that's for sure. There's plenty of gray-morality going on with Sarenrae's religion, in any case—she's very much into the "for the greater good." Her faith has resorted to guerilla style tactics against oppressive governments many times in the past, particularly in Taldor, Qadira, and Osirion.
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James ... please do an article on Milani someday ... she's my favourite Golarion deity. A goddess of uneven struggle for freedom and desperate uprisings, how cool can that be?
We'll be finishing off the core 20 deity articles in 2012, after which we are quite likely to move on to the other gods of the setting. We'll get to Milani eventually—she's got a relatively good chance of being one of the earlier ones we detail since she's from my homebrew world and thus I have some personal interest in seeing her developed more. ;-)
I'm reasonably sure that if I lived in Avistan, I'd probably worship Desna.
Or maybe Abraxas. Being a Librarian, and all.
After getting a chance to read a good many Pathfinder products, I have gotten the feeling that Desna is one of the most popular, if not the most popular, god in the Inner Sea. I would be interested in other people's take on this.
If this is true, why? As a student of religion I have some background in why religions succeed and others fail. What is it about the cult of Desna that draws people in? What does it say about the people of the Inner Sea that one of their most beloved is the goddess of dreams, stars, travelers and luck? Of course, we have to think about the magical component as well. Does she just pay more attention to her followers than the others?
I look forward to the Faiths of.. series, but I wouldn't mind if Paizo went even further in the future. I would love to see a 32 page book on each religion. Heck, I'd be willing to write them.
Anyone else enjoy this kind of depth in their fantasy faiths, or am I a freak?
I didn't get the impression that any of the 20 main deities was a special favourite. At least not if you consider the whole Inner Sea Region.
She's a special favourite of Varisians everywhere (I mean the ethnic group, not people living in Varisia - though of course there are many ethnic Varisians in Varisia), of course, since she's "their" goddess. While she's a very old deity, she seems to have been with the Varisians from the very beginning.
And since Varisia got a lod of attention in Pathfinder*, it will look a lot like everyone loves Desna.
There are other regions where she is a special favourite of the people (Ustalav comes to mind), but other deities have their special places, too:
...and so on and so forth.
Beyond the local concerns, there's always the portfolios to consider. Those who do physical labour will be drawn towards Torag. Merchants and Abadar go hand in hand. Artists can't help but offer prayer to Shelyn.
It's not always a professional thing, though: Some things are just popular. Everyone wants love, luck and to be forgiven his sins. Not to mention protection from Evil.
I'd say that for this reason, deities like Serenrae, Shelyn and Desna just have the right stuff.
And Desna has another ace up her sleeve (or would have if she wore clothes): As goddess of luck and journeys, she's a logical choice for Adventurers, either as their patron goddess or to offer prayers to regardless of faith! Since Pathfinder is all about the adventurers, that somewhat skews the view in her favour.
*The first three Adventure Paths took place or at least started there, which not only means that there are over a dozen AP modules take place there, but also that there was some support material, with Guide to Korvosa and City of Strangers (Guide to Kaer Maga) going into more Varisian detail)
Take Sarenrae as a contrast- as a LG deity of justice and Paladin-y-ness, she isn't nearly as popular with many greyer-morality adventurers (i.e., most of them, in my experience).
Do you mean Iomedae the Inheritor? LG goddess of justice and honour. Couldn't scream "PALADIN!" more if she actually manifested avatars on the streets of all major cities that literally shouted the word.
Take Sarenrae as a contrast- as a LG deity of justice and Paladin-y-ness, she isn't nearly as popular with many greyer-morality adventurers (i.e., most of them, in my experience).
When I started running Legacy of Fire my entire group spontaneously, without coordination, decided to play divine characters following Sarenrae. It was kind of a cool way to link their characters together.
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Take Sarenrae as a contrast- as a LG deity of justice and Paladin-y-ness, she isn't nearly as popular with many greyer-morality adventurers (i.e., most of them, in my experience).Do you mean Iomedae the Inheritor? LG goddess of justice and honour. Couldn't scream "PALADIN!" more if she actually manifested avatars on the streets of all major cities that literally shouted the word.
Yeah, somehow I managed to cram Sarenrae and Iomadae together in my head and start talking. At any rate, either stands as a more focused deity with a narrower appeal than Desna, at least to me.
There was a non-canon article on Milani in Wayfinder #3, and an upcoming article on her herald in Wayfinder #4.
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James ... please do an article on Milani someday ... she's my favourite Golarion deity. A goddess of uneven struggle for freedom and desperate uprisings, how cool can that be?We'll be finishing off the core 20 deity articles in 2012, after which we are quite likely to move on to the other gods of the setting. We'll get to Milani eventually—she's got a relatively good chance of being one of the earlier ones we detail since she's from my homebrew world and thus I have some personal interest in seeing her developed more. ;-)
+1 on Milani. I have a Galtan cleric of Milani who gets up to various mischiefs, but I've had to fill in a lot of details on my own. Would be nice to see any further kind of information on her so as to know if I'm getting the 'feel' of her faith right.
Edit - Ninja'd while typing... thanks for the info, Lilith! I'll go check it out.
Or I just go with Azathoth. That's fun too.
But you'd never come back!
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After getting a chance to read a good many Pathfinder products, I have gotten the feeling that Desna is one of the most popular, if not the most popular, god in the Inner Sea. I would be interested in other people's take on this.
If this is true, why?
That is incorrect; Asmodeus is the most popular, beloved and powerful deity in all of Golarion and among players as well, period. Disagree at your own peril! ;P
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Sarenrae, Iomedae and Asmodeus seem the 'big ones.' Desna and Pharasma have a fair amount of play as well.
Most of the others seem kind of understated, to me. Irori, Nethys, Torag, etc. just seem kind of 'there.' Urgathoa only exists as a source of cackling evil clerics whose plans never seem to make any sense (Step 1 - Infect everyone with plague! Step 2 - ??? Step 3 - Profit!) destined to get beat up in Adventure Paths.
Huh, I just noticed that some of the most active dieties are 'self-made' dieties, who ascended from mortals (Iomedae and Urgathoa), devils (Asmodeus), angels (Sarenrae).
The 'old gods' like Gozreh and Erastil seem to be settling down in their old age and letting the upstarts dominate the stage.
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Sarenrae, Iomedae and Asmodeus seem the 'big ones.' Desna and Pharasma have a fair amount of play as well.
Most of the others seem kind of understated, to me. Irori, Nethys, Torag, etc. just seem kind of 'there.' Urgathoa only exists as a source of cackling evil clerics whose plans never seem to make any sense (Step 1 - Infect everyone with plague! Step 2 - ??? Step 3 - Profit!) destined to get beat up in Adventure Paths.
Huh, I just noticed that some of the most active dieties are 'self-made' dieties, who ascended from mortals (Iomedae and Urgathoa), devils (Asmodeus), angels (Sarenrae).
The 'old gods' like Gozreh and Erastil seem to be settling down in their old age and letting the upstarts dominate the stage.
I suppose it's worth noting that Desna and Pharasma are probably the two OLDEST deities among the core pantheon. ;-P
I suppose it's worth noting that Desna and Pharasma are probably the two OLDEST deities among the core pantheon. ;-PSarenrae, Iomedae and Asmodeus seem the 'big ones.' Desna and Pharasma have a fair amount of play as well.
Most of the others seem kind of understated, to me. Irori, Nethys, Torag, etc. just seem kind of 'there.' Urgathoa only exists as a source of cackling evil clerics whose plans never seem to make any sense (Step 1 - Infect everyone with plague! Step 2 - ??? Step 3 - Profit!) destined to get beat up in Adventure Paths.
Huh, I just noticed that some of the most active dieties are 'self-made' dieties, who ascended from mortals (Iomedae and Urgathoa), devils (Asmodeus), angels (Sarenrae).
The 'old gods' like Gozreh and Erastil seem to be settling down in their old age and letting the upstarts dominate the stage.
Yep. But they are girls ~ they age better.
Let's see, Gods worshipped in the two groups in which I participate.
Group one Deity-worshiper's class
Desna-fighter
Irori-monk
Iomedae-paladin
Iomedae-wizard
Gorum - barbarian
Group two
Calistria-rogue
Cayden Cailean - fighter
Erastil - ranger
somesortaforce of good - cleric (left after one session )
somesortaforce of good - oracle (left after one session )
somesortanature ethic - druid ( not invited to return )
Greg
EDIT : Strangely, the "divine" types seemed to have the hardest time to pick a deity for Group Two, and they had the worst playstyle mix for the regular players. *shrugs*
There was a non-canon article on Milani in Wayfinder #3, and an upcoming article on her herald in Wayfinder #4.
Feels his head grow a size. Darn it! Now I'm going to need to buy a new hat. ;)
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There was a non-canon article on Milani in Wayfinder #3, and an upcoming article on her herald in Wayfinder #4.
Canon as far as my Golarion is concerned! ;) As are Crystalhue and the Zom-zoms!
somesortaforce of good - cleric (left after one session )
somesortaforce of good - oracle (left after one session )
somesortanature ethic - druid ( not invited to return )Greg
EDIT : Strangely, the "divine" types seemed to have the hardest time to pick a deity for Group Two, and they had the worst playstyle mix for the regular players. *shrugs*
I'm guessing no setting buy-in at all, huh? Condolences, man.
There was a non-canon article on Milani in Wayfinder #3, and an upcoming article on her herald in Wayfinder #4.Canon as far as my Golarion is concerned! ;) As are Crystalhue and the Zom-zoms!
somesortaforce of good - cleric (left after one session )
somesortaforce of good - oracle (left after one session )
somesortanature ethic - druid ( not invited to return )Greg
EDIT : Strangely, the "divine" types seemed to have the hardest time to pick a deity for Group Two, and they had the worst playstyle mix for the regular players. *shrugs*
I'm guessing no setting buy-in at all, huh? Condolences, man.
For the cleric, he looked through the domains and said AH these will do, then looked at the gods list of domains, shook his head and said " None of these match what I need, so I will just worship good " ( bye the bye, it was trickery and travel )
Greg
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For the same reason Tymora was represented at every table in the FR days. Travel and Luck domains are frikkin' sweet.
And in 2nd edition, it was that Tymora's Touch spell. Hot patooties was that sweet. (My pet peeve about diety-specific spells or added spells to the list or quirkly little powers, is that sometimes it just makes one god the *obvious* choice, just as Monks of Irori in Golarion have a power that Monks of any other god don't, free and clear.)
Tymora, Torm and Lleira were the big three popular gods at my table.
Before that, it was Heironeous, Trithereon and Wee Jas. :)
I could have sworn Cayden Cailean was the most popular. At least, he is within our group. His freedom and go-lucky attitude seem the perfect fit for adventuring types. However, that just may be our group beeing wooed over by his charm. The man is pure, unrefined charisma.
Also, I'd like to see a write up on Apsu and some legends about the creation of the world.
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So Desna is not necessarily the most popular deity of the Inner Sea. I would imagine she is rather popular with adventurers, especially of the Pathfinder bent.
So the question remains, who is the most popular deities and why? Is there a most popular?
Here's what's nagging my thoughts. When it comes to history, I'm a James Burke fan. I think that certain technologies and ideas build from other ideas, that may or not be directly related.
I think a good comparative example for the level of intellectual sophistication of the Inner Sea would be early Enlightenment. I base this on the movements in Andoran and Galt.
By the Enlightenment period on Earth, theological thought in the Western World had already reached Deism. While there's no reason why the Inner Sea should directly mirror Earth, in Europe monotheism was already around for around 1,200 years. And there's lots of scholars who agree that monotheism is a progression of theological ideas, without which you don't have further intellectual developments like the inherent rights of man.
Arguments can be made that all of Earth's most successful religions have a monotheistic or non-theistic belief structure. In the West you have the Abrahamic religions, and even in the East Hinduism while polytheistic, has the overarching concept of Brahmin, while Buddhism and Taoism don't have a true deity at all.
So why don't we see something similar in the Inner Sea?
Magic can be the answer. On Golarion, gods have the direct approach. Most theological thought arises from an attempt to solve the theidiocy question - in essence, "why do bad things happen to good people?" As others have mentioned, on Golarion, the answer is obvious, either because you displeased one of the gods, or your god wasn't strong enough to protect you from the others. This would mean, the most popular deities would be ones who's spheres of influence cause the most devastation, or warrior gods who can protect you from the others. But thus still doesn't answer how we reached the intellectual achievements that influence politics in the Inner Sea.
I think I have an answer that may fit well. It's a bit of a shoehorn. The followers of Aroden were certainly at a loss when he stopped answering prayers. They would probably have come up with a theological reason for their dilemma. So Aroden, being a questing soul, was not content with becoming a god. He wanted to become the greatest god. To do this, he merged himself with the fundamental power or creation, becoming not unlike Brahmin. He no longer answers prayers because he is all-knowing and unknowable. His will can not be known, and therefore he does not directly contact his followers who could never understand his true nature. Faiths with direct ties with Aroden, like Iomedea, would be greatly respected because of their special relationship, in much the same way Catholic saints are revered, because they are an intermediary to the divine.
Many people would probably not subscribe to this theory, but it would appeal to intellectuals who have a Platonic bent to their philosophies.
Or maybe I'm over thinking things again.
That is incorrect; Asmodeus is the most popular, beloved and powerful deity in all of Golarion and among players as well, period. Disagree at your own peril! ;PAfter getting a chance to read a good many Pathfinder products, I have gotten the feeling that Desna is one of the most popular, if not the most popular, god in the Inner Sea. I would be interested in other people's take on this.
If this is true, why?
If he's popular, this only shows how many gullible cretins the planet has.
After all, I was able to infiltrate the hierarchy with that costume.
It actually started out as a joke. I wanted to go Monty Python on those diabolic sheep. Dressing up as a mad jester, walking in there and start "Hey, let's hatch infernal schemes and suppress us some populace!!" *pratfall*
Imagine my surprise when they ate it up with a spoon. They respectfully bowed to me when I pranced - yes, pranced! - out there with secret documents.
Also, I'd like to see a write up on Apsu and some legends about the creation of the world.
There is some information out there, scholar. My children have been getting some attention by the golem scribes.
There are already some creation myths in the books. They're all mutually exclusive, of course.
I remember those godlings squabbling among themselves about these things.
So the question remains, who is the most popular deities and why? Is there a most popular?
I think the major 20 don't have a clear leader.
By the Enlightenment period on Earth, theological thought in the Western World had already reached Deism. While there's no reason why the Inner Sea should directly mirror Earth, in Europe monotheism was already around for around 1,200 years.[...]
Magic can be the answer. On Golarion, gods have the direct approach.
That's a big factor. Monotheism is hard to maintain when your whole city bore witness to a titanic struggle between two divine heralds or stuff like that.
And the clerics wield very real supernatural power. That makes all arguments on the lines of "Only my god is the real god!" hard to proof.
Most theological thought arises from an attempt to solve the theidiocy question - in essence, "why do bad things happen to good people?" As others have mentioned, on Golarion, the answer is obvious, either because you displeased one of the gods, or your god wasn't strong enough to protect you from the others.
Or his earthly champions were just not as powerful as his enemy's.
While the gods have a more direct influence on Golarion, they don't tend to everything personally. Even their direct servants (heralds and other powerful planar allies) don't often make an appearance. It's mostly fought by mortal champions. And there, the god's power doesn't directly relate to the follower's. An experienced cleric of some minor demigod will wipe the floor with a low-level cleric of Serenrae, Desna, or any of the other big players.
It is odd currently my two Golarion characters whorshipp Calistria one being a elven cleric....the other being a witch who was orphaned and raised in the Calistrian temple in Riddleport. Though it is sorta interesting playing out the differences in how elves whorshipp her and how humen whorshipp her. I hope this is explored a little in the upcoming Faiths of Balance book
The other players are more dispersive in their relgions choice.
As to Desna's being the most popular...I think it has more to do that she appeals to players thus she gets more attention in products. Also she is a goddess of travel....which means that her clergy well travels alot....which means she is probably very widespread, but not neccessary the most whorsipped. Just alot more visible...if that makes sense.
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There IS no one most popular deity these days in the Inner Sea... because the one who WAS the most popular died 100 or so years ago. Killing off the primary deity of the primary race of the region was something we did on purpose, for several reasons. One of those was to mix up religion a bit.
If you were to pick a single region out of the 40+ regions in Golarion, you'd be able to pick a most popular one in MOST cases (Asmodeus in Chelaix, Desna in Varisia, Iomedae in Mendev, etc.) but you can't really do that for the campaign setting as a whole. By design.
Desna gets a fair amount of attention because she has the domains that most players think of from 3.5 as being the "best" domains. Whether or not they're STILL the "best ones" now that we've rebuilt how domains work, I can't say for sure. But the momentum they (Travel, Luck) had from 3.5 carried over into Pathfinder.
And to be honest, I kind of did this on purpose, since Desna's one of my favorite deities. I wanted her to be pretty popular, and giving her Travel and Luck was one of several steps I took when building her back for my homebrew game to ensure that popularity.
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That is incorrect; Asmodeus is the most popular, beloved and powerful deity in all of Golarion and among players as well, period. Disagree at your own peril! ;PAfter getting a chance to read a good many Pathfinder products, I have gotten the feeling that Desna is one of the most popular, if not the most popular, god in the Inner Sea. I would be interested in other people's take on this.
If this is true, why?
If he's popular, this only shows how many gullible cretins the planet has.
After all, I was able to infiltrate the hierarchy with that costume.
It actually started out as a joke. I wanted to go Monty Python on those diabolic sheep. Dressing up as a mad jester, walking in there and start "Hey, let's hatch infernal schemes and suppress us some populace!!" *pratfall*
Imagine my surprise when they ate it up with a spoon. They respectfully bowed to me when I pranced - yes, pranced! - out there with secret documents.
I ignore your heretic remarks, you shameless turncoat!
And I demand you return those two squads of imps I sent to steal your jester's cap; my divination spells have revealed that most of them are still alive.
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If you were to pick a single region out of the 40+ regions in Golarion, you'd be able to pick a most popular one in MOST cases (Asmodeus in Chelaix, Desna in Varisia, Iomedae in Mendev, etc.) but you can't really do that for the campaign setting as a whole. By design.
*Sigh* ... James, James, James... shame on you for misspelling our glorious nation's name! ;P
I ignore your heretic remarks, you shameless turncoat!
Oh? In that case I shall breed and train albino girallons that will cling to the rooftops of your hellish capital and shout them from said rooftops!
The din they'll create shall be sweet music to my ears.
I'll also teach them some amusing limericks I composed about your ruler!
And I demand you return those two squads of imps I sent to steal your jester's cap; my divination spells have revealed that most of them are still alive.
Are you sure you still want them? I've liberated them. They are voidworms, quasits and lyrakiens now.
*Sigh* ... James, James, James... shame on you for misspelling our glorious nation's name! ;PIf you were to pick a single region out of the 40+ regions in Golarion, you'd be able to pick a most popular one in MOST cases (Asmodeus in Chelaix, Desna in Varisia, Iomedae in Mendev, etc.) but you can't really do that for the campaign setting as a whole. By design.
Count yourself lucky, Thrunie. I wanted him to spell it "SMELLEAX."
Count yourself lucky, Thrunie. I wanted him to spell it "SMELLEAX."*Sigh* ... James, James, James... shame on you for misspelling our glorious nation's name! ;PIf you were to pick a single region out of the 40+ regions in Golarion, you'd be able to pick a most popular one in MOST cases (Asmodeus in Chelaix, Desna in Varisia, Iomedae in Mendev, etc.) but you can't really do that for the campaign setting as a whole. By design.
Oooh. Look out, the devil lovers will hit you for something like that. But don't be afraid, it won't hurt.
Because they'll hit you with a Jelly Axe!
I think I have an answer that may fit well. It's a bit of a shoehorn. The followers of Aroden were certainly at a loss when he stopped answering prayers. They would probably have come up with a theological reason for their dilemma. So Aroden, being a questing soul, was not content with becoming a god. He wanted to become the greatest god. To do this, he merged himself with the fundamental power or creation, becoming not unlike Brahmin. He no longer answers prayers because he is all-knowing and unknowable. His will can not be known, and therefore he does not directly contact his followers who could never understand his true nature. Faiths with direct ties with Aroden, like Iomedea, would be greatly respected because of their special relationship, in much the same way Catholic saints are revered, because they are an intermediary to the divine.
Many people would probably not subscribe to this theory, but it would appeal to intellectuals who have a Platonic bent to their philosophies.
Well, I think it is a bit more than he just stopped answering prayers. On the day of his prophesied return, he stopped answering prayers. Prophecy itself stopped working the same way. ALL his clerics and paladins lost their ability to cast divine spells. The other gods' clerics that tried to learn what happened were told, Aroden died. A continent sized maelstrom opens up in the ocean. His favored land goes to hell. Iomedae, his herald, takes upon his mantle (also, saying Aroden is dead) I mean, maybe Norgorber, Zon-Kuthon and Rovagug are not saying he is dead...but Norgorber stays quiet, ZK just doesn't care, and well, Rovagug has issues.
One would have to be pretty philosophacally stubborn to ignore the facts. Aroden may have been trying to improve himself...but he done got deadified. Unless of course, it is a conspiracy of the gods. And I would rather it be Aroden the Deadite, than Sarenrae, Asmodious, and Lamashtu in cahoots.
Its been over a hundred years, and all divinations say the same thing. So, if there is a living worshipper of Aroden around, we may get good coin selling them to the Harlot Queen. I read she has regrets about not keeping some around to play with.
Greg
Desna is popular among adventurers, certainly. But stars, luck, dreams - these are flimsy things to most people. Good things, yes, but not things you build your life on.
I would imagine the most popular deities would be those who deal with things with a real, strong influence in their lives: Weather, love/marriage, family and hunting, wealth. Thus, Gozreh, Shelyn, Abadar, Erastil would all be good candidates, no? Considering the relative scarcity of urban population compared to rural, I would say Erastil has far bigger support than Abadar, but I would not claim to know more about this ranking.
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The question still remains, how do we get Voltaire and Thomas Hobbes, without Martin Luther and Thomas Aquinas? In essence, how do we get secular humanism out of a vacuum? I think James Jacobs partially answered the question. In order to produce philosophers like Aquinas and Luther, you need a highly organized, well financed, and powerful institution supporting those scholars. The Inner Sea does have that institution, or at least did, in the guise of the Church of Aroden.
I still don't think you can reach the kind of conclusions that Aquinas and earlier church thinkers made without some form of monotheism. At least something that points to a singularity like Plato theorized.
But as other people have mentioned, we haven't seen much of a creation myth for the Inner Sea, so maybe the answers lie there.
Once again, I really over think these things.
The question still remains, how do we get Voltaire and Thomas Hobbes, without Martin Luther and Thomas Aquinas? In essence, how do we get secular humanism out of a vacuum? I think James Jacobs partially answered the question. In order to produce philosophers like Aquinas and Luther, you need a highly organized, well financed, and powerful institution supporting those scholars. The Inner Sea does have that institution, or at least did, in the guise of the Church of Aroden.
I still don't think you can reach the kind of conclusions that Aquinas and earlier church thinkers made without some form of monotheism. At least something that points to a singularity like Plato theorized.
But as other people have mentioned, we haven't seen much of a creation myth for the Inner Sea, so maybe the answers lie there.
Once again, I really over think these things.
Looks like I need to pick up "Andoran, Spirit of Liberty". I had no idea that they were secular humanists. But then again, you are on the cusp of speaking above my pay grade when it comes to religious thinkin'.
As for inherent rights of man ( guess we include all the non-monster races there too), I think the good gods promote that. Difference between Golarion gods and Earth mythos is in Golarion...the gods are real. So yes, I go with magic makes a difference, or really 'divine' magic makes the difference.
And the nature of the beast, for Golarion at least is...there are multiple gods. There is no ONE true power, even when Aroden was around, he was a new kid on the block compared to many of the others. There was no One True and Perfect God...there are a lot of other gods with limits and conflecting agendas. So maybe that is how this "enlightenment" on Golarion came about. Through deific conflict as opposed to a monotheism. *shrugs*
Like I said, we are gettin' above my pay grade. Andoran was in the right place at the right time with the right people to come about the way it did. Galt...well, their timing was off.
Personally, the freedoms of the River Kingdoms works for most of my PC's.
Greg
The point might be made that with Aroden the world was heading towards a form of Monotheism....which might be why he needed to be disposed off before he ascended to that position.
Well, Golarion is gonna end up monotheistic one day. Just not sure if it is gonna be Rovagug or Groetus.
*grins*
Greg
After getting a chance to read a good many Pathfinder products, I have gotten the feeling that Desna is one of the most popular, if not the most popular, god in the Inner Sea. I would be interested in other people's take on this.
If this is true, why? As a student of religion I have some background in why religions succeed and others fail. What is it about the cult of Desna that draws people in? What does it say about the people of the Inner Sea that one of their most beloved is the goddess of dreams, stars, travelers and luck? Of course, we have to think about the magical component as well. Does she just pay more attention to her followers than the others?
I look forward to the Faiths of.. series, but I wouldn't mind if Paizo went even further in the future. I would love to see a 32 page book on each religion. Heck, I'd be willing to write them.
Anyone else enjoy this kind of depth in their fantasy faiths, or am I a freak?
Most popular with whom? Players (and PCs), NPCs, or the population as a whole (majority commoners)? Because I don't suppose in the APs we see much of the faith of the settled farmers, fishers and herders producing food for everyone. Worldwide, I would expect the gods with the most worshipers to be those concerned with getting food on the table (Erastil, and the weather/sea god Gozreh), and birth and death (Pharasma). I wouldn't expect that to be reflected in the small adventuring PC population, though, because adventurers aren't farmers, and don't focus on raising families
While it's common for PCs, and especially clerics, to just have one major deity, I think most common people are more polytheistic about it. The farmer says prayers to Erastil, Gozreh, and Pharasma, because they all influence his daily life. And he'll say a prayer to Desna for luck or to Rovagug to ward off rampaging beasts.
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Count yourself lucky, Thrunie. I wanted him to spell it "SMELLEAX."*Sigh* ... James, James, James... shame on you for misspelling our glorious nation's name! ;PIf you were to pick a single region out of the 40+ regions in Golarion, you'd be able to pick a most popular one in MOST cases (Asmodeus in Chelaix, Desna in Varisia, Iomedae in Mendev, etc.) but you can't really do that for the campaign setting as a whole. By design.
Careful there, Miss Opera Star; neither your petty insults, nor your overesteemed charms, will work on an Infernal Librarian and a Favored Son of Our Blessed Lord Asmodeus! I, too, have friends in high places, and probably as much... hmmm, sensitive, material about certain noble families as you do.
Oh, by the way, my imps recently recovered some interesting documents concerning a certain wolf statue -- you wouldn't be, perchance, interested in them? I'll gladly sell them for a very modest price...