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Yet, the disservice we've specifically been discussing, in the situation of the FLGS, someone shoplifting physical product from the store. Your statement is that some FLGS' deserve that disservice.I'm not saying that they deserve sympathy from you, if you have issue with them. I'm saying that, regardless of what the FLGS has done, it doesn't deserve to have people shoplift.
DOnt care. Trust me when I say this: there are some really bad FLGS that should close their doors.
I shed no tears for them. I wouldnt spray water(or unirate) on the building if it was on fire.(mind you, I dont wish harm to the folks working there).
They EARNED that scorn. They EARNED those words. so yes, some FLGS do deserve disservice.
Its been earned by them. I shed no tears for them.
Yeah really what's up with all the junior G-men? "Someone has copied PDF who can I narc them out to?" Jesus.my moral code requires me not giving a @#!?
i was raised with the rule "snitches get stitches"
sorry guys.
I know these people. They work hard to make something for us to enjoy.
I would love to work in the industry some day, but I can't and won't do it for free.
People who work to deliberately undermine a creative company repulse me. It's one thing to share a PDF in your group, that's not unlike lending someone the book. But setting up an account to deliberately undermine the whole venture? Yes, rest assured, I will inform on you, because I give a damn.
And this spineless gangster crap about "snitching" and "narc-ing" and "junior G-men"? Please. Get over yourself.
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Yeah really what's up with all the junior G-men? "Someone has copied PDF who can I narc them out to?" Jesus.my moral code requires me not giving a @#!?
i was raised with the rule "snitches get stitches"
sorry guys.
I know these people. They work hard to make something for us to enjoy.
I would love to work in the industry some day, but I can't and won't do it for free.
People who work to deliberately undermine a creative company repulse me. It's one thing to share a PDF in your group, that's not unlike lending someone the book. But setting up an account to deliberately undermine the whole venture? Yes, rest assured, I will inform on you, because I give a damn.
And this spineless gangster crap about "snitching" and "narc-ing" and "junior G-men"? Please. Get over yourself.
You see, there are some things even the most evil holographic President draws the line at. That right there should cause people's heads to explode.
And if it doesn't
People who work to deliberately undermine a creative company repulse me. It's one thing to share a PDF in your group, that's not unlike lending someone the book. But setting up an account to deliberately undermine the whole venture? Yes, rest assured, I will inform on you, because I give a damn.
I could have quoted lots of different posts for this, but yours was the most recent so I used it, but nothing is aimed at you. :)
Anyway, just to point out the official Pathfinder Society rules on this type of stuff, which I feel has some merit here as they are a part of Paizo, after all. Using someone else's pdf, whether of a book by a player or a scenario by a GM, is not allowed. However, it is legal to print out the relevant parts of books or print out the scenario for use, so long as it is returned to the owner of the pdf at the end of the gaming session. Loaning is alright, giving away is not.
Here is a question for all of you who are saying that it is very wrong to give out copies of your PDFs.
What if you live in an area where there is not a single gaming store within hours (and I mean hours) of your gaming location, so buying hard copies is both almost impossible or a bad option?
What about if the people you game with are students or people who don't have jobs and thus don't have money and can't afford to buy hard copies or PDFs themselves? Does that mean they shouldn't be able to play?
Is it horribly wrong and evil to give them copies of the PDFs so they can read the rules, make characters, be able to play the game without being grossly unaware of what they are doing? Is it alright if you are the only person within miles who is both a gamer and has the money and resources to buy the PDFs in the first place?
EDIT: FYI I am in no way supporting piracy, it is just a question about some of the extreme views I have noticed on the board and my curiosity on how some of you view the stated questions.
1) If there is no game store, then buy yourself a PDF from Paizo! Don't steal one from somewhere else. Or mail order the hard copy online! or EBAY!
2) If you can't afford to play the game, then you need to assess your finances. Paizo makes their PDFs cheap enough that if you can't afford the basic cash to buy the PF Rulebook, then you should be spending the time you would be playing RPGs working a second job. Flip burgers for a few nights a week (I did it back in the day...it sucked, but it paid for my rpgs) or whatever.
If $10 a week is going to break your bank, then you should be working, not gaming. Or at least accept that and play games that you can afford.
Combine some scratch with your friends and schare a rulebook until you can all afford to buy one.
Collect soda cans (in areas that do that).
Mow Lawns/shovel snow/ paint fences.
In my neighbrhood, when it snows, the local kids comb the streets looking to do a quick shovel. And I'm happy to pay them for it.
There are always other, legal options as opposed to pirating the books.
When I ran the PF demo that evolved into our ROTR campaign, we started in Sept 09 and I told everyone that they had to have a copy of the rulebook by January...some players had a copy, but guess what everyone else asked for for Xmas?
We shared copies at the table, but nobody stole or pirated a copy. (And I had two extra copies we shared the first few weeks.)
But I made sure my players weren't taking money out of Paizo's pockets just to play a game.
None of us are "entitled" to have a copy of the game just because we want it. You have to buy it just like everyone else. Or ask for it for xmas or qwanzaa or hanukka or your birthday or valentines day or whatever. (And lets face it. Who of us wouldn't want a gamebook on Valentines day?)
Back when I was still a young punk (late 70's early 80s) my parents didn't give me enough $$$ to buy the games I wanted. So I mowed lawns in the summer and shoveled snow in the winter. (I grew up outside of buffalo, NY, so snow was a serious consideration). I swept up at the local printer once a week. I collected cans. And when I finally found a hobby shop, I volunteered to help in return for some store credit.
And that was in the days before the internet or ebay, when you could troll and find books for sale online or sell your old toys for enough $$$ to get a decent miniature.
What I'm saying is..if you can't afford the book, then don't use it. Or save enough money to buy it. It's not your RIGHT to have a copy.
Now unless the folks at Paizo are mentally challenged or incredibly naive they had to know that at least one copy would be leaked, and considering the quality of their product and the astuteness of their business acumen, I find both highly unlikely, and to piss and moan about it here is purely crying over spilled milk, after someone at Paizo made the decision to spill the milk.
So you are saying that with publishing pdfs, paizo basically accepted that their stuff would get pirated, so all people should just shut up and accept the pirating? Wow. That´s the kind of thinking that lead WotC to pull all the pdfs from sale. It is indeed all but unavoidable, that is probably right. Yet still, just shrugging and saying, that´s the way it is, is most probably a disservice to gaming. If paizo decided one day that they had enough of pirating because of this attitude, they could pull all pdfs and demand everybody holding a pdf to delete them. And as it was stated several times by now, with the free PRD and the basic rulebook pdf at just 10$, there is absolutely no excuse for pirated stuff.
Stefan
"Stealing" and "Theft" are weasel words utilized by the groups such as RIAA and MPAA, specifically chosen to demonize the practice of copyright infringement or piracy. The words are emotionally charged (nobody likes their stuff being stolen), and their use is contrived to engender that emotion in people.
And using these words in that regard makes it all the easier to brand the perpetrators as criminals and suing them for obscene amounts of money. It prevents an objective discussion of the right measure of penalty. I see a difference between somebody copying files for his own use and somebody copying files for reselling, much as I see a difference between a drug addict and a drug dealer. There are gray areas, of course.
Stefan
So if someone shows up at your game with an illeagal pdf and you feel the burning need to pick up the phone and dial 1-800-rat-fink, then by all means do so, if your lucky, it might make you feel a little closer to sainthood, but that's all you'll accomplish.
I actually LOL'd.
Doesn't happoen often, but thank you :)
...So if someone shows up at your game with an illeagal pdf and you feel the burning need to pick up the phone and dial 1-800-rat-fink, then by all means do so, if your lucky, it might make you feel a little closer to sainthood, but that's all you'll accomplish. Now if you really want to make a difference, encourage them to buy now that they've tried.
WC out.
....And if you feel a burning need to go to www.ihatepayingforstuffsoilljusttakewhateveriwant.com and download a bunch of pirated PDFs, then by all means do so. If you are lucky, it can save you some cash, and you can succeed in the mental gymnastics to justify your actions. I could really care less. Just don't bring that s##* to my table or my house or I'll chuck you right out on your thieving ass. Encouraging someone to buy something they already downloaded for free is a waste of time. They've already shown that they are amoral and lazy.
Monkey out...
This thread hasn't been actually about Paizo specifically for several pages now. It's locked. If people want to continue arguing the morality of IP piracy, please create a new thread over in the Technology section.