Hey guys and gals, new to the forum, first thread. I have been gaming for around ten years and have a Pathfinder game i've been running for around a year and a half now. I've got four players, two green and two seasoned. We're running a custom world with dungeons adapted from modules.
My problem is this; typically i run things with alot of RP and minimal hack and slash. Recently i decided to take things to a different angle. I started implementing module ideas to up the fighting and puzzle work a bit. However, im noticing that during every combat things get a bit tedious and towards the end im glad it's over. Combat is just too boring. I was wondering if anyone had some creative was to spice things up abit.
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Don't sit toe to toe.
Use terrain and Combat maneuvers to make things exciting.
Have moving terrain with checks as needed to stay on it. If everyone sits in the spot they started, yes, it's going to be boring.
Also HOW people describe what they are doing can make a big difference as well.
"I roll to hit with my longsword. 16? Is that a hit?" just sounds lame next to
"I duck below his lame attempt to hit me and stab up under his shield. A 16... If that hits then I've impaled a kidney and watch the blood ooze as I withdraw my blade."
DO NOT punish your players for using cinematic descriptions of what they are doing... If they could just as easily say "I move the 2 squares to get into base to base" OR they could say "I rush along the bannister and leap onto the banner there and slide down" and still get to the same place.. let them do the second with out rolling for it.
Let your players know about the +1 for higher ground mechanic and then provide lots of tables and crates, rocks and fallen trees. Sure make it cost like difficult terrain to get up onto it but not to get off (or standard movement with a DC 15 (or lower) Acrobatics check).
Give a "Cinematic bonus" of +1 to hit if they come up with a cool description.
etc.
For flavor, i generally describe for them where and how there hit landed on the enemy. What do i do if my players are...well...not creative? I know it isnt my fault in that scenario but i still feel responsible, that i should compensate.
The terrain idea sounds great, it gave me a great idea already for the next game.
So far there are a lot of good ideas here. Another one to add to the mix is a bit of comedy. Combat is chaotic and not everybody on the field will always be the smartest/cleverest/wisest fighter.
When I have particularly chaotic and mischievous combatants on the board, I sometimes sacrifice one or two to comically bad decisions such as swinging on chandeliers, jumping from too-high a position, or latching comically onto somebody. I do similar things with bad decisions from the players, and also critical fumbles. We play those up for laughs, most of the time.
I'm lucky in that I have players with great senses of humor, who also try ridiculous things themselves during combat, ratcheting up the random factor.
It's not something you want to concentrate on in every battle. But it is a useful tool for lightening up the mood and keeping everybody interested.
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One big thing that took me a while to learn as a GM?
If it isn't fun, skip it.
PCs fighting a hoard of orcs, slaying left and right and having a blast? Great! But now the combat rounds are starting to drag, no one can roll above a 2 and those last couple of orcs just. won't. die?
Have them break and run. Or surrender (but that can have problems). Or just skip the "mop up" and fast-forward by DM fiat: "Finally, your swords bite home and the last few stragglers fall. Exausted, you wearily begin cleaning off the blood and picking up unbroken arrows."
One of the core DM jobs is balancing narrative against simulation, but if you don't make the PCs play out hours of sleeping (or eating, or going to the washroom), then you already skip the boring parts. Once combat gets dull, skip it. It gives you more time for the fun parts!
When the GM is getting into it and being cinematic it encourages the players to be as well.
Even if the player isn't to start with, you can help to get them started...
Player "I roll a 17. 2 damage ..."
You can fill in with "LaCroix swings his hammer but the bandit put his shield up just in time to have the shock of the blow come thru. He looks slightly injured even tho he was able to mostly block your attack."
If you want to have a non-static battlefield you can also have a target moving. It doesn't have to be the target of an attack...
You are trying to protect Princess Lilywhite and when the fight starts, she shrieks and runs...
The cart with the ore you are seeking starts to slowly roll away into the darkness with your prize...
The criminal leaps over the falls with the prize in hand. If he dies, your prize will sink with him...
As you defeat the earth elemental the ground beneath you starts to shake and tilt. The entire mountainside begins to slide slowly at first and begins to pick up speed...
Uriel has some great ideas.
I'm also a big fan of interesting terrain and combat maneuvers, especially if they can be combined.
Even adding a short wall or a pit to a basic 30 by 30 room can make combats more fun. I'm a big fan of pillars and barred walls and crumbling masonry. Tables are fun too: They can be flipped for cover, jumped on for higher ground, pushed in front of doors, hold interesting items, be hidden under, etc. etc.
Multi-room encounters can be fun too--just don't combine multiple encounters into one big mega-encounter--that could lead to a TPK.
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What I found important, is player's attention spans. Combats may be getting too long. When I GM with 3 players combats can go longer (8 rounds or less) because no one has to wait more than 3 minutes for their turn. With another group where I'm a PC, we have 5 PC's + few henchmen + the GM is playing some NPC + the GM has gauntlet closets or Spreads out combat 100-200 feet. When you have to wait more than 5 minutes for your turn, it gets boring fast.
I found Wolfgang Baur's home brew advice from Paizo Con incredibly valuable.
Just a quick question, is it just you that finds it tedious? Sometimes there is a disconnect between players and GM.
Just a quick question, is it just you that finds it tedious? Sometimes there is a disconnect between players and GM.
I do, yes, but two of my players will noticeable stop paying attention when things carry on. Also my other two could just be being polite when i ask them how exciting it is. Alot of this advice has helped, the game is friday so i'll try to implement the advice y'all have given.
It's becoming somewhat clear that it is mostly my fault (which is normally the case when GMing). I need to spruce up the monsters abilities more and add an exciting variable to the terrain. I think one of my biggest f&^k ups is that im adapting from a lower level module and not properly compensating. True, i change the monsters out for higher CR monsters but that may not be enough. To give you an idea i am adapting from the crypt of the ever flame, my players are levels 2-4. I'm using that module because the connecting stories (mask of the living god, etc) are adaptable for the type of campaign story im running.
Has anyone ever had a similar issue? Taking from lower level modules with a slightly higher APL? How did you fix things?
Last week my inquisitor jumped off the mast of a burning ship while holding some of the rigging to land on the dock behind the opponents sent to burn the ship. SOOOOO MUCH more fun than "I climb down the rigging and try to get into combat herp derp". It's made even better by the awesome acrobatics roll I made (nat 20...one of the few times that actually comes up for me). My DM even allowed me to draw the elven curve blade while sliding down the rope (essentially gave me a free move action on a skill use because it sounded so cool)
I like to change up the monsters the same as terrain. A goblin is a goblin is a goblin...until it isn't. The party walks into a vast hall filled with rust-colored humanoids, scattered among the cracked and aged pillars, snarling with their toothy maws. These are nobligs, known for being squat and slow but freakishly strong (goblin re-skinned taking out fast and putting the emphasis on strength with a Medium size like dwarves).
Also don't be afraid to add a little detail. Say your module says the evil female necromancer leads into combat with waves of fatigue as she issues her skeletons forward. Describe the spell: she holds out her hand and the shadows of the chamber dance and flicker, gathering around her gaunt digits. Suddenly the swirling darkness ebbs forward, an unearthly chill filling your very soul as waves of vile energies whelm over you all.
Perhaps the main warrior has a bleed effect on their sword; describe the wicked barbs and ripping teeth of the serrated blade. Put a weird symbol on the monster's skin that mirrors the runestones outside. Perhaps the blue dragon bloodline sorcerer constantly crackles with static electricity.
Finally; combine encounters. Yes, the standard APL or less than APL fight can be boring. But if you're going for epic and want something higher than APL have your stock-standard villains dancing about in a hall filled with traps.
Imagine if you will that the party enters a room with a slowly lowering ceiling. Now add in that the alchemist a floor above uses this chamber to dump his waste and inert admixtures in. Suddenly you've got a trap PLUS an alchemical ooze swarm that paralyzes its opponents. You BETTER hold that thing at bay or deal with it while we deactivate the door; otherwise you just lie helplessly on the floor staring through a coating of slime at the crushing death drawing ever closer. And you can't...even...scream...
A few ideas.
1) If you have been very combat light up until now. Your players also might not have much experience at combat. If they are inexperienced at it they are not as likely to try wierd or outlandish tactics. They are also probably slower at it. This should improve all by itself as time goes on.
2) Try to have the monsters do something other than just charge and attack all the time.
a] Even if the module only lists 12 orc barbarians attack, I will have say 2 of them try to sunder shields and armor.
b] I had a troll pick up itsllen gnoll ally and start hitting the PC's with the gnoll's body (used the improvised weapon rules). It wasn't as effective, but it got their attention.
c] Crocodile that grabed and tried to drag the samuri underwater.
d] One hobgoblin in the swarm armed with a spiked chain that starts disarming and/or tripping.
e] Archers firing from the top of wet slimy marble staircase.
f] Bunch of goblins all using aid another for just 2 of them trying to grapple the fighter into submission.
g] Among the kobold tribe are 2 sorcerers that concetrate on counter spelling or dispelling every bit of magic that the PC's use.
h] The wizard in the opposing group uses create pit and hydraulic push to isolate some of the group.
Once you start using more complex tactics, they are likely to see they are fun and use them.
3) Occasionally a module will have something that is just 2 boring to go through with. Change it or just scene discribe it. Recently a module has the PC harried by constant attacks during their trip. But the fights are just several mooks (rog 1) and leader (ftr 4) against the group of level 5 PC's. They never really get hurt and there is not supposed to be any real challenge. So after the first 2, I just described it. "Your sleep was again disturbed by a squad of fanatics. They were no more skilled or sneaky than the previous groups. You dispatched them with ease, but you are getting tired from lack of sleep. You are also getting irritated by these obnoxious bozos."
Design Manager
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We also use an egg-timer to regulate turns. You have decided on your action and begun carrying it out within the time alotted (typically 3 minutes). We also have spellcasters either create reference cards or use quick and easy apps for all of their spells, and they need any creatures they may summon statted out and readily available ahead of time. I find that a lot of time you have one or two players with overly complicated characters, and you start losing the attention of your other players when they have 15-20 minute waits between their turns. Keeping combat moving and ensuring that each player spends an equal amount of time in the spotlight goes a long way towards keeping everyone engaged.
I also try to drop fun little customized situations into encounters when the party levels up to give my players a chance to "showcase" their new tricks. Pride in your character = interest in the things going on around them!
We also use an egg-timer to regulate turns. You have decided on your action and begun carrying it out within the time alotted (typically 3 minutes)....
WOW! You are generous. We rarely give more than 30 seconds. Often not even that long.
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If combat is just hack and slash and no threat of death then it really is just a formality. Even if you don't want to kill players there needs to be that threat of death. Keep them on the edge of their seats and paying attention because if they aren't paying attention they may miss something that could have saved someone's life. Heck even annoyances like failing a save against Blindness/Deafness...it sucks but it isn't fatal.
A player in my game was busy talking to the other player and missed that his comrade was hit with a spell. He then asked me what happened and if he can make a spellcraft check...I told him no that his attention was drawn elsewhere and just missed what happened.
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Design Manager
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We also use an egg-timer to regulate turns. You have decided on your action and begun carrying it out within the time alotted (typically 3 minutes)....WOW! You are generous. We rarely give more than 30 seconds. Often not even that long.
I've found that the threat of a 3 minute timer often leads them to have their entire turn done in less than 30 seconds. I give them the 3 minute timer to account for the occasional moment when a player has their turn all thought out and then something happens that changes the battlefield so dramatically that they're just a little floored, or to account for new players who need a little help verifying their options. When we're running a group of all experienced players, we tighten the limits down exponentially. I don't want to be so strict that I scare new players off.
If someone is using the full 3 minutes every turn of every combat, someone will probably take them aside and help them "streamline" their character a bit.
I feel like a player should be contemplating their next move during an allies turn. Especially for bigger groups. Although, i have never used a timer.
@vestrial
I like your idea of making an enemy more dangerous but less HP. Grinding down a high HP enemy that poses little threat is no fun. I'm going to hammer out some ideas tonight and ask what y'all think tomorrow. They are about to face the final boss and i really want this to be a big bang.
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Personaly I find combat encounters fun when there is some strategy about the enemy. Example the party is fighting a group of kobolds and there dyeing left and right have the run away and as the party gives chase have traps go off every were that they set up. When the party finally catches up they find them selves in the open and surrounded on all sides by kobolds what do? Also having the enemy use teamwork combat feats is great as well. I think if the enemy is smart enough to do it and / or its in there nature to do it then do it. Kobolds are my favorite example for this because there sneaky, crafty, and if approached right very powerful in numbers.
In any case though when it comes to combat encounters having monologue in the fights is amazing. Nothing is better than having the enemy taunt the players into its grasp.
The trick is speed. I used Character cards, just the combat numbers and list of spells for each player. Limited the time of a turn and tried to keep it quick.
@ Psion: why stop there? I had a bunch of mites sacrifice themselves like that, then they ran away...and traps went off like you said. One of the traps though was just some of the villains to the side, in little hidey holes, using prestiditations to make the party smell like garbage.
The party arrived in the open, on top of a floor with a very obvious grated pit. The grate was an elaborate use of prestidigitation and the party knew not to step there. But the mites used slings; not to hit the PCs but to smash the lattice grate. Out came the giant carrion beetles. What are they attracted to? Why, the stench of garbage of course...
And we laughed and laughed...
@vest: I will also steal your idea of quick and deadly combats. I would submit to you though that some of the higher CR fey already fit the bill w/no mods. Also imagine a straight run at a human wizard: the villain can hit you with a disintegrate but if you get through all his defenses he only has 36 HP.