Venture-Captain, Missouri—Cape Girardeau
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In context, here is the link that caused my confusion.
The first time this happened, it was with a Season 0 scenario that i had never received credit for, since in Season 0 GMs received no credit. But his answer lead to the confusion when added to PPP, leading to me gaining credit for a scenario twice - one as GM and once as a player under PPP.
Subsequently, I thought this was right based on the answer given... and told my other GMs. This lead to an increase in PFS activity as other previous "PC only" players decided to try GMing, granting me and my loyal GMs at our FLGS a much needed break in running and a chance to play. Now that this has been clarified by Mark, I don't have an interest in GMing ever again under the current interpretation; if I did, I would effectively be "locked out" from PPP. Meanwhile, other players are currently free to "farm" scenarios by playing in other home groups, rather than at the FLGS.
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In context, here is the link that caused my confusion.
The first time this happened, it was with a Season 0 scenario that i had never received credit for, since in Season 0 GMs received no credit. But his answer lead to the confusion when added to PPP, leading to me gaining credit for a scenario twice - one as GM and once as a player under PPP.
Subsequently, I thought this was right based on the answer given... and told my other GMs. This lead to an increase in PFS activity as other previous "PC only" players decided to try GMing, granting me and my loyal GMs at our FLGS a much needed break in running and a chance to play. Now that this has been clarified by Mark, I don't have an interest in GMing ever again under the current interpretation; if I did, I would effectively be "locked out" from PPP. Meanwhile, other players are currently free to "farm" scenarios by playing in other home groups, rather than at the FLGS.
Ahh, I see where your confusion came from, But he meant that answer for that Specific situation and not for Re-play in general.
And being locked out from replay is not a big deal since it should be a very rare occurrence, who cares if you are locked out from something that should be very rare?
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Venture-Captain, Missouri—Cape Girardeau
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I think the worse was being, in essence, accused of trying to cheat the system.
I have worked very hard to help make Pathfinder huge in our area. We just seated over 7 tables for the Shadow Lodge special at our local convention, Brewfest. It was the only time I have gotten to play in a month and I was glad to get that chance (even if I did accrue 6 negative levels versus the spectres!), but the hanging implied accusation kind of marred the experience.
And, unfortunately, that lead to a lack luster GMing job on my last scenario of the convention.
The last thing I would do is cheat or try to loophole the system for my personal gain, but that is not to say others won't.
And, until PPP, the reporting system would tell me (albeit after reporting) that a PC was not eligible for a scenario that they had played in, since they had been given credit previously. This did lead to me taking back Chronicles on at least two occasions. I let the player's know that I felt it was my mistake, but both times they knew what they were doing. Now they no longer play at the FLGS, but that doesn't prevent them from doing it with a home group.
This still doesn't change the fact that I don't see where it matters if I run a scenario first or not. There are a lot of scenarios still legal that I barely remember; only the outstanding ones like Mists of Mwangi and Among the Living are hard to forget!
A strict limiting on the amount of times a player could play under PPP would prevent it from going too far. Thus, I suggested the Rule of Two.
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Venture-Captain, Missouri—Cape Girardeau
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And being locked out from replay is not a big deal since it should be a very rare occurrence, who cares if you are locked out from something that should be very rare?
If I am running almost all of them, then PPP becomes not just rare, but next to impossible! But for a player that has never GMed, that changes things.
(And I am not meaning you, Dragnmoon)
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And being locked out from replay is not a big deal since it should be a very rare occurrence, who cares if you are locked out from something that should be very rare?If I am running almost all of them, then PPP becomes not just rare, but next to impossible! But for a player that has never GMed, that changes things.
(And I am not meaning you, Dragnmoon)
ok...huh? I don't understand what you are saying here...
Edit: Other then you did not mean me.
Edit: Also I could understand you being upset for being accused of cheating.
Arnim,
Basically what you are saying is that it is unfair that if you happen to have already run all the scenarios that are being offered for play at an event, that you will not be able to play anything offered with any of your characters, whether for credit or not. And that the only way you would be able to play at all would be to run a pre-gen, and then only if you were needed to make a legal table.
Oh, and with all the various posts in this thread now, people need to remember that replay and play, play, play are two different rules. Play, play, play can happen without replay, but replay cannot happen without play, play play.
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Arnim,
Basically what you are saying is that it is unfair that if you happen to have already run all the scenarios that are being offered for play at an event, that you will not be able to play anything offered with any of your characters, whether for credit or not. And that the only way you would be able to play at all would be to run a pre-gen, and then only if you were needed to make a legal table.
Oh, and with all the various posts in this thread now, people need to remember that replay and play, play, play are two different rules. Play, play, play can happen without replay, but replay cannot happen without play, play play.
Actually, He could play anything he wanted if there was room, he just could not get credit for it... I think that is the part he is complaining about.
Well, replay already has the limitation that you can only do it to make a legal table and not just whenever you want to. And replay for credit can only be done four times after you have gotten the initial credit. The problem isn't really replay for credit by regular players, rather it is replay for credit not being allowed for GMs once they have run a scenario.
If it were not too much work, it would be nice if the reporting system could let you enter in a player's PFS number and it would show a list of all scenarios that have been played in. Then a GM could come to the website here, log in, punch in a player's number and get the listing before running a game and know in advance if someone is trying to cheat and replay when they are not supposed to.
And for the people who wonder why players would want to get as many chronicles for as many characters as possible, there will always be people who must "Win" at whatever they are doing, and, to them, perhaps getting the most 12th level characters is their idea of "winning".
Director of Brand Strategy
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Actually, a little of both. But thank you guys for helping! And yes, PPP isn't truly the problem; replay creates the issue. A limit on replay is what is needed.
Working on clarifying things. Thanks for understanding, Arnim. We're in agreement and are looking into solutions regarding replays. I for one don't think you're trying to game the system and we're trying to figure out the best way to make the game fair for everyone while still permitting replay in necessary cases.
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Venture-Captain, Missouri—Cape Girardeau
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Thanks for taking the time to respond, Mark. It really means a lot to me. Hopefully, this can be resolved in a manner that helps eliminate this kind of confusion. I am SO looking forward to a FAQ thread that can clear away some of this... maybe one that only you and Hyrum can post on so it doesn't get so cluttered.
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It makes sense for a small PFS group for the GM to be able to get one chronicle sheet for a scenario in order to keep within the same level range as the rest of the group when GM duties rotate.
The issue is when you have a large, inconsistent group like PFS Olympia. You'll have probably 2 or 3 GMs and maybe a dozen players on any given game day, running from four to six slots (afternoon and evening). The burden is on the people who can GM to do so... and we do, without regard to not getting GM credit for GMing the same scenario multiple times (I'm no longer a GM up there since I moved). I get it, it comes with the territory of being a PFS GM, you will not get credit for the scenario most of the time; that's not the problem. The problem is that if GMs cannot ever play a scenario they've GM'ed, it would make it very, very difficult for large groups to make legal tables without excluding players: "sorry, you GMed this one. You can't play here. Go eat a Snickers for 4 hours." Even the most prolific GMs like to play instead of GM sometimes, and forbidding GMs from playing scenarios they've run severely limits their ability to join tables.
It's important for the small group GM to get GM reward chronicles to keep up with his players when it's his turn to take a break from GMing. It's just as important to large group GMs to be able to play scenarios they've already GMed, so they can take a break from GMing and play for a change.
PPP is a good rule. I would think from a marketing standpoint you'd want to avoid any situation where you're requiring your GMs, the people who usually organize and run these events and buy all the scenarios, to sit out of Society tables.
I can say we use PPP quite a bit here in Olympia WA. We only use it to keep as many players playing in as fun an atmosphere as possible. We are trying to "grow" the group and have had quite a few new people come in for one or more sessions. One of our biggest problems is group size. We lost 3 players due to deployment and moving (we live very close to a military installation). Our group size can be anywhere from 8-16 people total. This makes for very interesting play. Sometimes we have to break into 3 very small tables (3 players plus a GM) and sometimes have a 7 player table + GM. Two of the 3 people we lost were GM's. This leaves us with 2 and a couple of players are starting to step up (THANKS A TON). When we get down to one table things get real interesting, and it isn't uncommon for someone to either have to run a pre-gen or play a second character.
I don't like to have players run pre-gens very often. It seems more fun if they can play through it a second time with a new or different character. Another hitch is when you have a table of 6+GM. Who gets to use the 2nd character and who has to play a pre-gen? This is some of what we face. I would really like to see GM's able to play through a scenario for credit one time and for player's to be able to play through a second time if it means they would have play a pre-gen.
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I can say we use PPP quite a bit here in Olympia WA. We only use it to keep as many players playing in as fun an atmosphere as possible. We are trying to "grow" the group and have had quite a few new people come in for one or more sessions. One of our biggest problems is group size. We lost 3...It makes sense for a small PFS group for the GM to be able to get one chronicle sheet for a scenario in order to keep within the same level range as the rest of the group when GM duties rotate.
The issue is when you have a large, inconsistent group like PFS Olympia. You'll have probably 2 or 3 GMs and maybe a dozen players on any given game day, running from four to six slots (afternoon and evening). The burden is on the people who can GM to do so... and we do, without regard to not getting GM credit for GMing the same scenario multiple times (I'm no longer a GM up there since I moved). I get it, it comes with the territory of being a PFS GM, you will not get credit for the scenario most of the time; that's not the problem. The problem is that if GMs cannot ever play a scenario they've GM'ed, it would make it very, very difficult for large groups to make legal tables without excluding players: "sorry, you GMed this one. You can't play here. Go eat a Snickers for 4 hours." Even the most prolific GMs like to play instead of GM sometimes, and forbidding GMs from playing scenarios they've run severely limits their ability to join tables.
It's important for the small group GM to get GM reward chronicles to keep up with his players when it's his turn to take a break from GMing. It's just as important to large group GMs to be able to play scenarios they've already GMed, so they can take a break from GMing and play for a change.
PPP is a good rule. I would think from a marketing standpoint you'd want to avoid any situation where you're requiring your GMs, the people who usually organize and run these events and buy all the scenarios, to sit out of Society tables.
Well, let's see...Charlie left, I'm moving, so that's two GMs right there...who else left?
We're definitely working on trying to find a solution that works well for most everyone. I think we've got one but I was in meetings from 2pm until 8pm yesterday and didn't really have the time to finalize things. Expect some clarification this week. (Hopefully today.)
Hyrum.
Another hitch is when you have a table of 6+GM. Who gets to use the 2nd character and who has to play a pre-gen?
For this specific situation, the only choice is to play a pre-gen. Replay using a different character is only allowed in order to make a legal table, not when you already have a legal table.
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The only detrimental factor I can see is it not being fun for others due to the "gaming the system" player may possibly have more/better gear or nails the faction missions straight away. Why are more rules needed in the first place? Most people if given the opportunity will do the right thing.
This is the problem in my group, People thinking it is not fair if others are allowed to "Cheat", luckily I have never found anyone cheating, I have found mistakes, but all have been fixed with no issues.
I do know for a fact though that there are people out there "Gaming the system".
And you are right, most people will do tar right thing when given the opportunity.
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Well, let's see...Charlie left, I'm moving, so that's two GMs right there...who else left?
The other GM we lost is Daniel (at least for the next year while he is deployed to Afghanistan). We also lost Holly although that blow wasn't quite as bad since she didn't GM.
Losing her still really effects our table sizes and puts on a wierd bubble of needing two tables but not quite.
@Hyrum Thanks a lot for working on this and will await final word.
I think this can be cleared up with a simple statement. If this has not been said before then it really needs to be,
not just on this message board but in the guide. Something like this.
"In the spirit of the game, no person be they a player or GM should expect to receive more than One chronicle sheet per scenario."
As we all know the world is not fair and people will manipulate the rules(cheat) to get what they want. We just have to do our best to do the correct thing in spite of them.
Ok everyone, here's the official ruling, which will also appear on the official Pathfinder Society FAQ page when it goes up:
If you play you earn 1 credit that is applied to the character that played through the scenario.
If you GM a scenario, you earn 1 credit that can be applied to any character that hasn't played through the scenario.
You receive GM or player credit regardless of the order you play/GM the scenario. You may not earn more than 1 player credit and 1 GM credit regardless of how many times you GM or play the scenario. You are free to use PPP to seat legal tables, but if you already have earned your credits you do not earn any additional ones.
I'll be monitoring this thread all day to answer any questions or concerns. Also, please expect additional clarifications and updates on other rules as we get to them.
Thanks!
Hyrum.
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Thank You!!Thank You!!Thank You!!Thank You!!Thank You!!Thank You!!Thank You!!Thank You!!Thank You!!Thank You!!Thank You!!Thank You!!Thank You!!Thank You!!Thank You!!Thank You!!Thank You!!Thank You!!Thank You!!Thank You!!Thank You!!Thank You!!Thank You!!
Okay you get the meaning. I think this will help awhole lot.
so this goes into effect today, does this mean all previos multi player cred is still good? i know its probably yes but just askin
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I know that it's only been 20 minutes, but just to make clear, this means that any character that uses PPP does not receive a chronicle? Does this mean there are no consequences (I.E. death etc.) or does it mean that there are consequences without XP/GP?
(This is a generic question, not just based on GMing beforehand or not)
Cool. That is what I had posted earlier in this thread as all I would need to make me happy. Being able to have a max of two 12th level characters after 33 scenarios sounds reasonable to me. And of course there is no rule saying you can't have more than two characters getting credit, just that no more than two characters can get credit from a specific scenario, one as a GM and one as a player.
Hyrum,
With this change from five characters to two for credit, will the restriction on faction be lifted too? Or will the second character earning credit from a scenario still need to be from a different faction than the first character?
I know that it's only been 20 minutes, but just to make clear, this means that any character that uses PPP does not receive a chronicle? Does this mean there are no consequences (I.E. death etc.) or does it mean that there are consequences without XP/GP?
(This is a generic question, not just based on GMing beforehand or not)
I am sure he will answer, but reading what he wrote, it sounds like you get no benefit but can still get the consequences. This will cause an increase in the use of pre-gens, I bet. :)
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I am sure he will answer, but reading what he wrote, it sounds like you get no benefit but can still get the consequences. This will cause an increase in the use of pre-gens, I bet. :)
It does sound that way, although I'd much prefer the other version to be able to play my characters more and get to know them more. Otherwise I might not be willing to join a random group with a pre-established character for fear of complete loss of character for no reward.
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I am sure he will answer, but reading what he wrote, it sounds like you get no benefit but can still get the consequences. This will cause an increase in the use of pre-gens, I bet. :)I know that it's only been 20 minutes, but just to make clear, this means that any character that uses PPP does not receive a chronicle? Does this mean there are no consequences (I.E. death etc.) or does it mean that there are consequences without XP/GP?
(This is a generic question, not just based on GMing beforehand or not)
Don't forget about the usage of consumables too!
We'll be clarifying and updating PPP soon as well but yes, if you play a character in a scenario there is always the threat of death (plus the use of consumables), regardless of whether or not you get credit for it.
Hyrum.
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I need to be sure I understand this. If you have an established group and someone new comes along the only way you can have the new player and players who have gotten credit for the scenario is to have a minimum table size of 4 to invoke the PPP rule (If this is the case do they get the chronicle sheet?). In other words if you have a GM and 6 players with one of them not having played in the scenario before then all of the established players will have to play pre-gens. Is this correct?
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Director of Brand Strategy
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I need to be sure I understand this. If you have an established group and someone new comes along the only way you can have the new player and players who have gotten credit for the scenario is to have a minimum table size of 4 to invoke the PPP rule (If this is the case do they get the chronicle sheet?). In other words if you have a GM and 6 players with one of them not having played in the scenario before then all of the established players will have to play pre-gens. Is this correct?
Why would you be offering a scenario that almost your entire group has played? There are dozens of available scenarios. Certainly there's something that would have better than a 5:1 ratio of played/unplayed.
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Why would you be offering a scenario that almost your entire group has played? There are dozens of available scenarios. Certainly there's something that would have better than a 5:1 ratio of played/unplayed.
There are only about 7 low level scenarios in all the seasons that our established players haven't played in.
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Sounds good. The new ruling is very clear and perfectly fair.
The only problem occurs if you have a group on the 'cutting edge' that wants to introduce a new player. The new player basically can't play with his friends even if his friends are willing to start new characters to play with him because there isn't enough stuff for them to play together.
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Sounds good. The new ruling is very clear and perfectly fair.
The only problem occurs if you have a group on the 'cutting edge' that wants to introduce a new player. The new player basically can't play with his friends even if his friends are willing to start new characters to play with him because there isn't enough stuff for them to play together for credit.
I fixed it for you. :D
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Since you said Any Character, I am assuming they no longer have to be of another Faction?
Edit - I am also looking forward to your rule clarifications/changes to PPP/Replay rules, and Playing up rules.
If you only get 1 chronicle for playing... why would faction matter? Theoretically, GM's don't have factions :)
I like the ruling. Simplicity is usually best.
Because under the old rules where you could get credit up to five times, once with each faction, that rule still applied to the credit gotten as a GM. So if they don't change the different faction requirement, you would still have to make sure that your two characters getting credit from a scenario are of different factions.
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Director of Brand Strategy
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Because under the old rules where you could get credit up to five times, once with each faction, that rule still applied to the credit gotten as a GM. So if they don't change the different faction requirement, you would still have to make sure that your two characters getting credit from a scenario are of different factions.
I believe this restriction no longer applies. The reason for that was to make at least faction missions different for players going through scenarios another time. That no longer matters. We'll be sure the clarify this in the FAQ.
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We'll be clarifying and updating PPP soon as well but yes, if you play a character in a scenario there is always the threat of death (plus the use of consumables), regardless of whether or not you get credit for it.
Hyrum.
If you don't get an adventure record, how would you be able to track the use of consumables?
I have to say, this would really make me lean towards playing a pre-gen rather than my own character if I was replaying as a favor to make a table. Getting the consequences with no benefits just doesn't seem reasonable or fair to me.
replayed dark waters last night. since replay i used my pally for no cred. since most of his levels was gm cred. it was fun and at the end got a chronicle sheet for 0 every thing, so can track consumibles. another guy played a pregen and had a blast since had nothing to fear if dies. used up allmost all the consumibles and performed very risky behaviors. of course throwing a fireball fron necklace at our feet wasnt fun for me for a second when he failed his save and had to role for the rest of the neclace. i could have lost my character real quick.. i say this to point out down fall to playing with others oplaying pregens.