GM Rewards and Chronicle Sheets


Pathfinder Society

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Liberty's Edge 5/5 *** Venture-Captain, Missouri—Cape Girardeau

This came up again this weekend, so I am looking for clarification. Does a GM gain a Chronicle for running a game if he has already played through it or is it only considered "eating a scenario" if you GM first? And if so, how does a GM playing a scenario assure he is not "cheating" on the scenario when he has the opportunity to play that scenario?

As a GM, I play a lot of scenarios, and rarely get to play. I was under the assumption that a GM could gain credit only two times as a "player" and as a "GM", regardless of which order this happens in. If this wrong, I need official confirmation.

Liberty's Edge 4/5

Arnim Thayer wrote:

This came up again this weekend, so I am looking for clarification. Does a GM gain a Chronicle for running a game if he has already played through it or is it only considered "eating a scenario" if you GM first? And if so, how does a GM playing a scenario assure he is not "cheating" on the scenario when he has the opportunity to play that scenario?

As a GM, I play a lot of scenarios, and rarely get to play. I was under the assumption that a GM could gain credit only two times as a "player" and as a "GM", regardless of which order this happens in. If this wrong, I need official confirmation.

I am pretty sure you can only get player credit if you have not GM'd it. So to get the Chronicle for both, you must play it first and then GM it.

Paizo Employee Director of Brand Strategy

Atrius wrote:
I am pretty sure you can only get player credit if you have not GM'd it. So to get the Chronicle for both, you must play it first and then GM it.

This. Once you've GMed a scenario, you can not gain credit for is as a player. A player (whether they've GMed a scenario before or not) should only be replaying a scenario to fill an otherwise illegal table, and not to progress another PC.

Liberty's Edge 5/5 *** Venture-Captain, Missouri—Cape Girardeau

Thanks for the clarification. I am officially done as a Pathfinder GM.

As a local GM, I built our Pathfinder Society following from Season 0 to now, eating roughly 98% of all the scenarios to date. Rarely, does PPP come into play where I can sit in on a game. I have never knowingly broken the PPP rules, only applying credit as GM and occasionally filling in as a player using a different character with a different faction (then the GM credit character) when I did. Because I "eat" almost all the scenarios, I have nothing to straight play through. And while I have a steady stable of GMs that also run PFS occasionally at our FLGS, I rarely schedule them to "eat" the scenario first.

An e-mail from MR. Frost had lead me to believe that as long as I never took credit more than twice and never "broke the game", I was in the clear. Obviously, this is mistaken.

Thank you for your time. It has been a pleasure.

Grand Lodge 2/5

Arnim Thayer wrote:
Because I "eat" almost all the scenarios, I have nothing to straight play through. And while I have a steady stable of GMs that also run PFS occasionally at our FLGS, I rarely schedule them to "eat" the scenario first.

Shouldn't you be rotating this duty though your GM (s)table so that there are mods that you WILL be able to play instead of just eating them all?

Shadow Lodge 5/5

Mark Garringer wrote:
Shouldn't you be rotating this duty though your GM (s)table so that there are mods that you WILL be able to play instead of just eating them all?

This is what our group does and it's fantastic. I eat roughly 1/5 the scenarios and get to play 4/5 the time. We meet regularly enough that when I do my GM only group once a month, I have a huge variety of modules to pick from that I've GMed already and/or played.

The Exchange 5/5

Sad to see another GM go,
Have fun with whatever you choose.

The Exchange 5/5

Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
Mark Garringer wrote:
Arnim Thayer wrote:
Because I "eat" almost all the scenarios, I have nothing to straight play through. And while I have a steady stable of GMs that also run PFS occasionally at our FLGS, I rarely schedule them to "eat" the scenario first.
Shouldn't you be rotating this duty though your GM (s)table so that there are mods that you WILL be able to play instead of just eating them all?

While that is a great idea, it doesn't work for all groups. Not all players are willing to DM, even letting the game just pass rather than DM. If the game is at a store, then you need someone to volunteer to do it, or even volunteer when you ask. I definitely empathize with the "eating all scenarios" problem as I tended to DM almost exclusively for our older PFS group, although it has gotten significantly better over the past year.

Grand Lodge 2/5

Alizor wrote:
Mark Garringer wrote:
Arnim Thayer wrote:
Because I "eat" almost all the scenarios, I have nothing to straight play through. And while I have a steady stable of GMs that also run PFS occasionally at our FLGS, I rarely schedule them to "eat" the scenario first.
Shouldn't you be rotating this duty though your GM (s)table so that there are mods that you WILL be able to play instead of just eating them all?
While that is a great idea, it doesn't work for all groups. Not all players are willing to DM, even letting the game just pass rather than DM. If the game is at a store, then you need someone to volunteer to do it, or even volunteer when you ask. I definitely empathize with the "eating all scenarios" problem as I tended to DM almost exclusively for our older PFS group, although it has gotten significantly better over the past year.

I totally get that. I'm in the middle of trying to grow my own (s)table of GMs. But seemingly by Arnim own admission the situation sounds a little different then the one you were in.

Liberty's Edge 5/5 *** Venture-Captain, Missouri—Cape Girardeau

Alizor wrote:
While that is a great idea, it doesn't work for all groups. Not all players are willing to DM, even letting the game just pass rather than DM. If the game is at a store, then you need someone to volunteer to do it, or even volunteer when you ask.

This.

I was under the impression that the GM credit was a reward for GMing... once.

To clarify again, a GM can NEVER play a scenario he has run except under PPP).

A player can GM a scenario he has already been through and gain GM credit for that scenario the second time. AND, under PPP, play it again.

Hardly seems fair to the Gm who had to get the ball rolling with a "Slot 0!"

This is how it seems to read, after Mark's explanation. And if so, THAT is why I will no longer GM first.

Liberty's Edge 5/5 *** Venture-Captain, Missouri—Cape Girardeau

This exact discussion was made on the boards some time ago, leading to my misconception. If you become "locked out" after running a scenario, and someone will have to run it first, no one will want to be that person. Which is how I became the GM who "eats" the scenarios.

Dark Archive 4/5

Arnim isn't kidding when he said he is the builder of the local PFS base here. I thought the way it is was the correct interpretation, but he is more active in the forums and what not than I am, so I didn't challenge his understanding of it.
Only getting credit for a scenario once doesn't bother me at all as I'm not that active a player... No...that's not the way to put it... I mean I don't care if I play or GM. That's a better phrasing.
Way to make me not retire from gaming Arnim. *joking tone*

Liberty's Edge 4/5 5/55/5 **

Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Maps, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Charter Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

For those upset about "Eating Scenarios", sooner or later the Star System you get for GMing will mean some kind of rewards, Just what they will be and when it will happen is not known yet.

Grand Lodge 2/5

Dragnmoon wrote:
For those upset about "Eating Scenarios", sooner or later the Star System you get for GMing will mean some kind of rewards, Just what they will be and when it will happen is not known yet.

Everyone makes choices in this life, make ones that make you happy.

Grand Lodge 4/5 5/55/5 ***

And then there are those few of us insane gamers that actually prefer GM'ing to playing. I do take GM credit on characters so they are available when I really want to play a particular scenario at whatever tier, but that is the exception, not the rule.


Technically, you can get credit five times for each scenario since there are five factions. You would just have to get really lucky (or the rest of the group unlucky?) in getting to replay that many times.

Paizo Employee Director of Brand Strategy

Enevhar Aldarion wrote:
Technically, you can get credit five times for each scenario since there are five factions. You would just have to get really lucky (or the rest of the group unlucky?) in getting to replay that many times.

As long as you never GM it until after you've played it 5 times. But I don't want to encourage people not to run games so that they may happen to have the chance to play it 5 times under "Play, Play, Play."

1/5

I have to say, I've been a bit confused and burned out on the whole GM reward system. I more or less understood in the beginning when everything was getting up and running that there wasn't a GM reward program, but once there was, it seemed like it was akin to pulling teeth to get rewarded for previous GMing done.

All of the season 0 sessions I ran don't count for anything, and on top of that, as more and more of them get retired, unless I can find the time to run them before they get retired, I'll never get any reward for them.

I don't want to sound petulant, but I put a lot of work into running games at the FLGS and at our local Winter War, two years running, every slot of the convention. But the first year didn't net me anything, because there wasn't a GM rewards program yet, and when it came around, it was hammered home that we all knew there was no reward program so we didn't get anything from previous sessions before the rewards kicked in.

I did seem to remember a conversation in a thread that discussed that you either got credit as a GM or you got credit as a player, but never both, but that goes into another frustration of mine, that being that a lot of rulings and clarifications were scattered around the forums all over the place. It got a bit better after the threads for the updated Guides became the magnet for all clarifications, but it still seemed like there were pronouncements made in other threads that never made it back to the once collected FAQ style thread.

I know there are people that have done ten times the work I have in their local markets, but I have to admit that I kind of felt, from time to time, that because there were people that were pulling off superhuman feats of coordination, I should feel lucky that there was any kind of GM rewards program, since even those people that did so much more than me didn't get anything better.

We have a game night coming up that is a fill in session since our regular campaign isn't going to be played that night. I'll likely have to play to make a legal table, since we're missing a player or two this week. Its an adventure that I already ran in season 0, before any rewards program, so I'll end up not getting any benefit. I could run the session, but with some of the hectic things going on in life for me recently, I kind of wanted to just play. So I guess this is pretty much my own issue to deal with . . . but its annoying.

I guess after all of this grousing, what I'm really saying is, I hope that changes are very clearly posted in some obvious, central area, that rulings are posted in very clear places on the forums, and that the GM reward system becomes a bit less like "hey, lets try this for a few months" and becomes a bit more stable, logical, and set in stone for longer periods of time so everyone knows what's what and how it works.

Paizo Employee Director of Brand Strategy

KnightErrantJR wrote:
I hope that changes are very clearly posted in some obvious, central area, that rulings are posted in very clear places on the forums, and that the GM reward system becomes a bit less like "hey, lets try this for a few months" and becomes a bit more stable, logical, and set in stone for longer periods of time so everyone knows what's what and how it works.

I can assure you, this is a top priority for us, and we'll make it very clear when we have FAQs and rules/policy clarification where they can be found.

Liberty's Edge 4/5 RPG Superstar 2015 Top 16, RPG Superstar 2013 Top 16

Mark Moreland wrote:
Enevhar Aldarion wrote:
Technically, you can get credit five times for each scenario since there are five factions. You would just have to get really lucky (or the rest of the group unlucky?) in getting to replay that many times.
As long as you never GM it until after you've played it 5 times. But I don't want to encourage people not to run games so that they may happen to have the chance to play it 5 times under "Play, Play, Play."

Unfortunately, that's exactly what you're encouraging. This ruling will create 2 classes of PFS players: those who only play and never GM, so they can progress multiple characters; and those who only GM and never play, because they cannot ever progress any characters at all. I respectfully ask you to reconsider.

Paizo Employee Director of Brand Strategy

Charlie Bell wrote:
Unfortunately, that's exactly what you're encouraging. This ruling will create 2 classes of PFS players: those who only play and never GM, so they can progress multiple characters; and those who only GM and never play, because they cannot ever progress any characters at all. I respectfully ask you to reconsider.

A GM still gets credit for one of their PCs the first time they run a scenario if they have not yet played it. How does this prevent GMs from advancing characters? This is how it's been since GM rewards were introduced at the beginning of Season 1, so it's not like this is something new I've implemented on the boards today.

The Exchange 1/5

Mark Moreland wrote:
Charlie Bell wrote:
Unfortunately, that's exactly what you're encouraging. This ruling will create 2 classes of PFS players: those who only play and never GM, so they can progress multiple characters; and those who only GM and never play, because they cannot ever progress any characters at all. I respectfully ask you to reconsider.
A GM still gets credit for one of their PCs the first time they run a scenario if they have not yet played it. How does this prevent GMs from advancing characters? This is how it's been since GM rewards were introduced at the beginning of Season 1, so it's not like this is something new I've implemented on the boards today.

Mark,

if eat a scenario for my group, do get a chronicle for my character?

Thanks.


Mark Moreland wrote:
Charlie Bell wrote:
Unfortunately, that's exactly what you're encouraging. This ruling will create 2 classes of PFS players: those who only play and never GM, so they can progress multiple characters; and those who only GM and never play, because they cannot ever progress any characters at all. I respectfully ask you to reconsider.
A GM still gets credit for one of their PCs the first time they run a scenario if they have not yet played it. How does this prevent GMs from advancing characters? This is how it's been since GM rewards were introduced at the beginning of Season 1, so it's not like this is something new I've implemented on the boards today.

See, this is what I am not getting, or else I have misunderstood all the posts about this topic from the past few months by Josh and others. I thought the first time you GMed a scenario, that you got the GM credit and chronicle, no matter how many times you may have played it before running it.

Liberty's Edge 5/5 *** Venture-Captain, Missouri—Cape Girardeau

Mark Moreland wrote:
As long as you never GM it until after you've played it 5 times. But I don't want to encourage people not to run games so that they may happen to have the chance to play it 5 times under "Play, Play, Play."

Unfortunately, that is what I see happen more often then not, the same players gaining credit through PPP to help bring a newbie into the game.

As the coordinator at our FLGS, I take the brunt of "eating" scenarios. This is not solely because players don't want to miss the chance to possibly PPP if it comes... many don't understand that a GM is basically screwed after he runs it. I have two other GMs that help take some of them on, but as the "go to guy" at the FLGS, I hate to ask them to take the potential constant loss.

So to get this straight, if a GM runs a game, he can no longer gain credit... even with PPP? But a player who never runs can? And potentially 5 times? How is this a GM reward then?


KnightErrantJR wrote:


All of the season 0 sessions I ran don't count for anything, and on top of that, as more and more of them get retired, unless I can find the time to run them before they get retired, I'll never get any reward for them.

I would have to go digging for the specific posts, but I was sure that Josh said that if any scenario you originally ran for no credit, you were to run again after version 2.2 of the Guide came out, that you could get full credit for it. The only thing that could not be changed was scenarios where partial credit was earned by a GM. Those could not be re-run for more credit.

Sovereign Court 1/5

Mark Moreland wrote:
Atrius wrote:
I am pretty sure you can only get player credit if you have not GM'd it. So to get the Chronicle for both, you must play it first and then GM it.
This. Once you've GMed a scenario, you can not gain credit for is as a player. A player (whether they've GMed a scenario before or not) should only be replaying a scenario to fill an otherwise illegal table, and not to progress another PC.

People are confused about this rule because the rulings are not consistant. In the New Changes for Pathfinder Society: Phase 1 thread on April 1st Joshua Frost wrote

J. Frost wrote:

"Hrm.

I might be making this a touch confusing.

In Season 0 (versions 1.0, 1.1. and 1.2 of the Guide) there were no GM rewards.

In Season 1 (version 2.0, 2.1) there were GM rewards. These rewards stated they were not retroactive. So if you GMed something under the previous rules sets, you would need to GM them again to get the GM reward credit.

Version 2.2 of the rules expands the GM rewards but does not retroactively apply that expansion to anything you may have GMed prior to 2.2.

Replay is now legal in 2.2 to make a legal table. If the only way to make a legal table was for one of the GMs in your example to sit down and play, they could replay the scenario for current credit so long as they weren't applying that credit to a PC that received credit for that scenario already (PCs may never get credit twice for a scenario and replay must be with a different character in a different faction than the last time you played the scenario).

So, specifically for Arnim, you would get credit playing the scenario if you were using replay to make a legal table. If you are not using replay to make a legal table, you will need to play a pregen and play for no credit.

Replay is only to be used to make a legal table and if you played/GMed the scenario already, you can't play the scenario unless the only way to make the legal table is for you to play.

Man I hope that makes sense."

This was in response to a question about a GM needing to replay to make a legal table and what if any rewards they could receive.

On page 1 of the same thread J.F. states it is acceptable for a GM who has not gained xp for running a secnario. To play that secnario with his own charecter instead of a Pregen in order to make a table, and gain the usual player benefits.

If the new official interpetation is to disallow these acts please state it very clearly in the guide.

I greatly enjoy PFS and look forward to what Hyrum and Mark have in store.

Liberty's Edge 4/5 RPG Superstar 2015 Top 16, RPG Superstar 2013 Top 16

Mark Moreland wrote:
Charlie Bell wrote:
Unfortunately, that's exactly what you're encouraging. This ruling will create 2 classes of PFS players: those who only play and never GM, so they can progress multiple characters; and those who only GM and never play, because they cannot ever progress any characters at all. I respectfully ask you to reconsider.
A GM still gets credit for one of their PCs the first time they run a scenario if they have not yet played it. How does this prevent GMs from advancing characters? This is how it's been since GM rewards were introduced at the beginning of Season 1, so it's not like this is something new I've implemented on the boards today.

It prevents GMs from advancing any other characters beyond the 1 they take GM credit for. Sure, you could advance a character all the way to 12th level with nothing but GM credit, but then you haven't really played that character, have you? That's no fun at all. And if you frequently GM (as I do), every scenario you GM rules you out of ever playing that scenario again as a non-pregen PC, even under Play Play Play (EDIT: If I'm reading right what Mark was saying above). You very quickly run out of scenarios that you can play. That's no fun, either. I'd much rather not get any GM credit at all for scenarios and still be able to play them.


Hey everyone,

When I get to the office tomorrow we'll talk about this issue and get a clearer ruling posted. Sound good?

Hyrum.

Grand Lodge 4/5 5/55/5 ***

Maybe I'm unique, or just plain crazy, but I don't need a rewards program to GM. I love to do it. Having played since 1978, mostly as a DM/GM, I never rec'd any rewards before, outside of the joy of playing. The GM stars are nice and I hope to one-day be known as an elite 5-star, but just presenting a good game is reward enough. As a GM, I love it when players are re-living encounters or recognize me at a future event and say, remember when so-and-so happened. That's cool. I'd rather be a GM and have a good game then play at a table with a poorly prepared GM or one who doesn't want to be there. I still take my GM credit and have four current PC's (one nearing retirement). I just hold out for particular scenarios that sound really interesting.

1/5

TwilightKnight wrote:
Maybe I'm unique, or just plain crazy, but I don't need a rewards program to GM. I love to do it. Having played since 1978, mostly as a DM/GM, I never rec'd any rewards before, outside of the joy of playing. The GM stars are nice and I hope to one-day be known as an elite 5-star, but just presenting a good game is reward enough. As a GM, I love it when players are re-living encounters or recognize me at a future event and say, remember when so-and-so happened. That's cool. I'd rather be a GM and have a good game then play at a table with a poorly prepared GM or one who doesn't want to be there. I still take my GM credit and have four current PC's (one nearing retirement). I just hold out for particular scenarios that sound really interesting.

I actually used to think exactly like this, until life blew up on me and I didn't have time to GM except at conventions, and I was faced with a character that couldn't keep up with all of those PCs that I had been running games for up until that point.

Sovereign Court 4/5 5/55/5 **

Pathfinder Maps, Rulebook, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I was under a different, but similar, misunderstanding than Arnim.

I was under the impression that if you ran first, and applied a chronicle to one of your characters, you locked out playing the scenario with only that faction. And then later, you could PPP, with a different faction.
If you played first, and then ran it, you did not get a sheet for running.

But from your rules clarification, I can NEVER play the scenario, even in PPP.

1/5

Tim Statler wrote:

I was under a different, but similar, misunderstanding than Arnim.

I was under the impression that if you ran first, and applied a chronicle to one of your characters, you locked out playing the scenario with only that faction. And then later, you could PPP, with a different faction.
If you played first, and then ran it, you did not get a sheet for running.

But from your rules clarification, I can NEVER play the scenario, even in PPP.

Yeah, your misunderstanding is how I misunderstood it as well, if that makes sense.

The Exchange 1/5

I'll keep on eating them and judging for my group, because I enjoy judging a good table. I ran DaB for Dave Arneson for 2 years and literally ate an entire campaign. It would be nice to be able to play with my friends at major cons. I'd like a clear understanding of this rule so I can plan. I've also overseen over 25 table slots at GenCon and DragonCon. Not afraid to judge... Just looking for clarity...

Liberty's Edge 5/5 *** Venture-Captain, Missouri—Cape Girardeau

@Hyrum: I look forward to your response. As you can see from the post above (and much thanks for Mad Alchemist for finding the answer from Mr. Frost on the forums!), this is a pretty confusing topic.

I used to GM for the fun, knowing that those scenarios I ran during Season 0 could never be played by my character. Then the first version of the GM Rewards Program made it into a rewarding experience for my character as well as for me as a GM. Unfortunately, I realized that my players were far outreaching me (at least in PA) and I was running out of scenarios I could actually play. So I switched gears and enlisted the aid of other GMs for Pathfinder (such as Dayne d'Arco), so that I could enjoy them as well. The changes for the GM rewards helped make up some of that ground, but PPP further confused matters.

I have ran so many of these that I can honestly say I have trouble remembering the plots, let alone the faction missions. So PPP (on the rare occasion it occurs for me) is a great way for me to get involved as a player. But if GMing negates PPP for the GM, but not for players, how is that fair or balanced? I would be better off retiring from GMing to concentrate on playing for a change... leaving a huge gap in our FLGS PFS schedule.

Liberty's Edge 4/5

Holy forum-drama, Batman.

I don't understand the issue. The rule has been this way for a while. It has been brought back up every few weeks when a new GM posts asking what he gets.

If I GM a regular group who runs the same characters, I will have a character that has the same Chronicles they do when we go to a Con or someone else GMs. That is why you get a Chronicle for GMing it. Of course I can't play it now that I have read all the behind the scenes stuff.

If you are running several groups of people at different levels, have multiple characters getting the different Chronicles. There are 60 some scenarios now. Its not like it was when there was only a few.

Liberty's Edge 5/5 **

I know this rule has been through several changes already but as things are now it's more advantageous to burn modules first and then 'replay' them as a player at a later date.

That seems completely backwards. It seems like you'd want to encourage people to judge stuff they've already played.

I'd like to see judges get the 'one-time' player credit the first time they judge a mod regardless of if they have played it first or not.

Liberty's Edge 4/5 5/55/5 **

Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Maps, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Charter Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Gallard Stormeye wrote:

I know this rule has been through several changes already but as things are now it's more advantageous to burn modules first and then 'replay' them as a player at a later date.

That seems completely backwards. It seems like you'd want to encourage people to judge stuff they've already played.

I'd like to see judges get the 'one-time' player credit the first time they judge a mod regardless of if they have played it first or not.

Huh?....

Wow... People are confused...

You already get GM credit the first time you GM it, even if you did play it...

I know people are confused on this... But being that I have never been confused on it, it is hard for me to understand why others are, sometimes I feel people are just acting confused in hopes they will get the rules changed to rules they like.

Edit: I am not saying the poster I quoted is doing that.


Dragnmoon wrote:

Huh?....

Wow... People are confused...

You already get GM credit the first time you GM it, even if you did play it...

I know people are confused on this... But being that I have never been confused on it, it is hard for me to understand why others are, sometimes I feel people are just acting confused in hopes they will get the rules changed to rules they like.

Edit: I am not saying the poster I quoted is doing that.

Maybe people are being confused now because Mark posted this earlier in the thread:

"A GM still gets credit for one of their PCs the first time they run a scenario if they have not yet played it."

Liberty's Edge 5/5 **

Enevhar Aldarion wrote:
Dragnmoon wrote:

Huh?....

Wow... People are confused...

You already get GM credit the first time you GM it, even if you did play it...

I know people are confused on this... But being that I have never been confused on it, it is hard for me to understand why others are, sometimes I feel people are just acting confused in hopes they will get the rules changed to rules they like.

Edit: I am not saying the poster I quoted is doing that.

Maybe people are being confused now because Mark posted this earlier in the thread:

"A GM still gets credit for one of their PCs the first time they run a scenario if they have not yet played it."

I was under the impression that was how it worked until I started reading this thread.

So you do get credit for the first time you judge a mod regardless of if you've played it previously or not?

Liberty's Edge 4/5 5/55/5 **

Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Maps, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Charter Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Enevhar Aldarion wrote:
Dragnmoon wrote:

Huh?....

Wow... People are confused...

You already get GM credit the first time you GM it, even if you did play it...

I know people are confused on this... But being that I have never been confused on it, it is hard for me to understand why others are, sometimes I feel people are just acting confused in hopes they will get the rules changed to rules they like.

Edit: I am not saying the poster I quoted is doing that.

Maybe people are being confused now because Mark posted this earlier in the thread:

"A GM still gets credit for one of their PCs the first time they run a scenario if they have not yet played it."

Argh.... A poor choice of words by mark...It is true, you do get credit the first time you GM, if they have not yet played it, you also get credit if you have.

Above that he said this...

Mark Moreland wrote:
Atrius wrote:
I am pretty sure you can only get player credit if you have not GM'd it. So to get the Chronicle for both, you must play it first and then GM it.
This. Once you've GMed a scenario, you can not gain credit for is as a player. A player (whether they've GMed a scenario before or not) should only be replaying a scenario to fill an otherwise illegal table, and not to progress another PC.

And that is what is correct.

Liberty's Edge 4/5 5/55/5 **

Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Maps, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Charter Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Gallard Stormeye wrote:


I was under the impression that was how it worked until I started reading this thread.

So you do get credit for the first time you judge a mod regardless of if you've played it previously or not?

Yes, But not the other way... Once you get GM credit, you can never get credit again...

Even though Josh was quoted in saying you could get credit again in replay rules, He has also said you can't. And this is why...

If you notice in replay rules you have to Play with a character of another faction, because the only surprise left and one of the biggest rewards you get is the faction points, and if you play the same faction you have pre-knowledge on how to get the faction points *Of course if you pay attention you can figure out the other factions to, but that is besides the point*, that is why you can only play 5 times with the replay rules, and if that ever happened to someone, that would be someone gaming the system IMO. Anyway, once you GM a scenario you now know All the faction missions and how to solve them so you know exactly how to set up before you go into the adventure, and that is an unfair advantage, and that is why you can not get Player credit once you GM a scenario.

Anyway, none of this does not mean Hyrum and Mark won't change it.

Edit: I don't think they need to change the system, Only thing I think they need to add to it is a reward for the Star System, hopefully that will stop all the whining on these boards about GM credit, because then they will be getting something when they can't get GM credit.

Grand Lodge 2/5

Dragnmoon wrote:
Edit: I don't think they need to change the system, Only thing I think they need to add to it is a reward for the Star System, hopefully that will stop all the whining on these boards about GM credit, because then they will be getting something when they can't get GM credit.

Best case/perfect world to me would be the GM gets some kind of 'credit' every time they run it. Sure many GMs believe repeat performances get easier, but there is still an investment by the GM each time and acknowledging that investment in some external way is apparently very important to some GMs. To me, a lot of my 'credit' comes from the post game conversation and emails. "Awesome game!" "I had a great time, thanks!" "I can't wait to play again, when is the next game?"

The current system is fine. It allows a GM to keep parity with his character by gaining XP and also inherently motivates the GM to diversify the mods he runs. And that's good for sales. ;)

If I can play a mod first before I run it, super awesome, doubleplus good. If I can't? BFD. I'm still going to get 1 Chronicle to apply to a character. If maximizing the reward system is your driving force, then you are going to need to make different choices in order to reach that end.

Liberty's Edge 5/5 *** Venture-Captain, Missouri—Cape Girardeau

Personally, I am not looking to "maximize my reward". I am looking at legality. If PPP means players can play multiple times, but a GM can't, then the balance is broken again. And then why would ANYONE want to be the one to eat a scenario.

And I have never Played (through PPP) a scenario I had run more than once; that would definately be unfair.

Grand Lodge 5/5 ****

I just hope I don't make a fool of myself by not understanding it correctly. But what I have written below is my understanding (unless I somehow get it wrong).

As far as I can tell of this is due to the PPP rule and how it seems to be used in some cases.

This is how I interpret the RAI

Start without PPP
As a GM who eats a scenario you get credit for a scenario once. It doesn't matter how often you GM
As a GM who first plays a scenario and then GMs it he gets credit twice - once as player, once as GM
A player who plays a scenario gets credit once - when he plays it.

So far all looks fine. A GM who eats a scenario is worse off as a GM who first plays and then GMs - but at least he isn't worse off as a player.

Now we add PPP
As a GM who eats a scenario you get credit for a scenario once. It doesn't matter how often you GM
As a GM who first plays a scenario and then GMs it he gets credit twice - once as player, once as GM
A player who plays a scenario gets credit once - when he plays it and up to four times more when he uses PPP with other factions.

I think it is the latter bit - in bold - that actually is the cause why a GM suddenly could feel disadvantaged. This is when the reward turns into a penalty. I haven't seen this happening yet here - my group is so young that we still have a lot of scenarios left to play.
But I can see issues arise when you mix a first generation player with a new generation and PPP becomes widespread.

For fairness a GM (no matter if he eats a scenario or not) should be able to apply the PPP rule as well. I don't want to derail PPP - as the number of new scenarios slowly gets down I might see myself in a situation I might have to look at PPP in a years time.

But right at the moment there is a different treatment between GM and players due to PPP.

Thod

Grand Lodge 5/5 ****

Dragnmoon

I agree that do PPP four times seems like gaming the system. But that probably should be dealt in a different thread.

There is an issue if a player could game the system, while a GM who gets a 'reward' is prevented from playing - even if he doesn't try to game the system and would like to play once in a while.

Thod

PS: The 'surprise to do another faction mission as player is only a partly valid argument. In my games I tend to learn 60% of all missions during a game because another faction on my table shares them with me


I just want to point out that nowhere in the Guide does it say that only players can participate in the replay option and nowhere does it say that once a GM runs a scenario that he can never get credit for another character by replaying that scenario. It may have been said in a post somewhere by Josh, but it never made it into the Guide. So all the players and GMs that never read these forums will only be playing by the rules in the Guide, which, to me, say that anyone can get credit for up to five different characters, whether that is from playing five times or GMing once and playing four times, regardless of the order in which the GMed session and the played sessions occur.

Liberty's Edge 4/5

heres my "i think problem". o season mods dont count for my former gm who ran them for us. he needs time off and i have now ran about 7 season 1 mods for some new people and old ones. my old gm comes back and is now playing. there are 17 mods for 1-4 level characters in season 1 and 2. this means he can get only 1 character to 5th and beyound. when we go back to replay so others can play and build up a character he will only get to play the ones he hasnt ran and only up to 3rd level so will have to play pregens. this is what i dont think is fair. My new players can play season 0 and get credit and this is where i will need to go so they can build up more than one, but he wont be able to.

Liberty's Edge 5/5 *** Venture-Captain, Missouri—Cape Girardeau

Enevhar Aldarion wrote:
See Above...

And THAT is how it was presented to me, as can be seen by the quote from Mr. Frost way up above. Never have I GMed a game and then played, unless PPP was involved. And even then, it was with a character the GM credit had not been assigned to and a different faction. And NEVER have I played, even PPP, a scenario I had run multiple times... that to me would be playing the system for ulterior reward.

Then I was told my character was illegal because of the PPP credit, since I had GMed first. To my perspective, this is an unfair advantage of the players to the GMs, which is in part what the GM Reward credit was all about.

I didn't start this thread to stir trouble; I legitimately want to know if I am in the wrong. Obviously, PPP does muddy the waters a bit. And, as noted, responses and clarifications here on the forums, but not in the Guide, also make things difficult to interpret. Even then, the interpretation of PPP from Mr. Frost, to Mr. Moreland seems different, where GM Credit is involved.

Scarab Sages 1/5

Enevhar Aldarion wrote:
I just want to point out that nowhere in the Guide does it say that only players can participate in the replay option and nowhere does it say that once a GM runs a scenario that he can never get credit for another character by replaying that scenario.

IMHO DMs can't replay and get credit because in the guide it says

Guide to Pathfinder Society Organized Play wrote:

Do Not Read the Scenario

Players who read a scenario prior to playing it are
considered to be cheating, as it may give them an unfair
advantage over other players when accomplishing their
goals.

Since DMs have to read it to run it they can't then play it.

With the exception under the "play play play" where "a GM may play one pregenerated character to make a legal table.".

That doesn't solve the problem of giving DMs rewards. A couple suggestions are:

1) Give product discounts based on # of stars. That would be a cash reward.

2) Allow DMs to earn a chronicle for every game DMed. Chronicles for games more than the first (if played or DMed) and second (as DM) would be applied to 1 of the DM's characters but only 1 chronicle per mod is allowed per character.

Option number 2 would give something to DMs. Unfortunately this would give DMs who run the same mod lots of times, lots of characters with 1 chronicle sheet. So if you run the same mod 10 times you'll have 6 different characters with 1 sheet each from that mod. It wouldn't be much good for leveling any specific character.

Liberty's Edge

Dojohouty wrote:

IMHO DMs can't replay and get credit because in the guide it says

Guide to Pathfinder Society Organized Play wrote:

Do Not Read the Scenario

Players who read a scenario prior to playing it are considered to be cheating, as it may give them an unfair advantage over other players when accomplishing their goals.

See, and I think it's perfectly fine for a GM to replay, especially if they've only ran it one time. In truth, they aren't that much more ahead of the curve (if at all) then any player playing it again, and replay is allowed (per PPP, etc.), so why not?

And for my two cents of thought, I have always understood the rules as: You can get credit 5 times...one for each faction, and no more than one of these can be from GM credit. I base this on the following text from the Guide, Ch 12, p 29 & 30:

Guide to Pathfinder Society Organized Play wrote:
Starting with version 2.2 of this document (and not retroactive to any previous scenarios that were run) any Game Master who “eats” a scenario gets full credit for that scenario applied to his own character one time. “Full credit” means the GM gets the following...[and]...A GM may only apply a chronicle from a specific scenario to one of her PCs once—in other words, she may only receive character credit for GMing Scenario #29 once. Any additional sessions spent GMing that scenario earn no additional credit, but will of course apply to her GM Ranking.

The only question here I think is what "eats" means...does it mean to simply run a mod at any time? Or does it mean to run a mod before ever playing it? Or does it mean you physically have to munch on the paper in front of your table of players???

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