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Kyle Baird wrote:


But even the new Pregens likely won't wands with 50 charges to blow through. I would expect their consumables to be limited. The fear of death thing won't change, however, except that if you die, then you hurt the rest of the party..

True. I haven't looked at a pregen for awhile to see what their consumable items would look like. So you're right. And it is always something that can be accounted for when they draw up new pregens, that their wands and such could quite likely be used all in one session and thus create them with a reasonable number of charges where that doesn't disrupt play.

I don't see a major downfall to playing pregens. I've played tons of pregens in other systems at other con games and even some one-shots in home games. They can be fun if going into it open minded.

The Exchange

Kyle Baird wrote:
The fear of death thing won't change, however, except that if you die, then you hurt the rest of the party..

This is so true, but doesn't matter if the player doesn't care about the other players in the group.

The comments I've heard from players is that without credit for replay, "Why would I care about how I play a pregen or a character that doesn't lose anything?" Most of the attitude I've seen is that they would play, but they would do riskier things and play in a way that would likely (not necessarily intentionally) endanger the other players' characters.

My suggestion is that the first time you GM and the first time you play, you get full credit. Doesn't matter the order and if you GM first, you can play without the "replay" rule (replay doesn't count until after you have played the scenario). After that, give players half credit for replays, but only allow replays for the Play, Play, Play rule. Credit for replays would be 1XP, 1PA, and 1/2 gold. Replay characters for a player would also need to be a different faction than the character/s that they had previously played with in that scenario.

I believe this would encourage players and GMs to do new scenarios, but still allow for when that new person shows up. It also takes away the "I don't care," attitude from those who replay.

Just my 2cp.

The Exchange 5/5

Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Card Game, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber
Kyle Baird wrote:
If you knew your character couldn't die, and didn't have to account for consumables, would you play it different? Why not blow every wand charge, every potion, every scroll? That mentality could lead to quite an upsetting experience.

As others have said, I think that mentality would exist just as much with a pre-gen. I've seen many people just rush in with pre-gens and not care about themselves (or the party) before. To be honest, I have a connection with my characters I play, and I'd rather they not die, even if there weren't the consequence of death at the end of the mod.

Liberty's Edge 4/5 Venture-Captain, Texas—San Antonio aka Dragnmoon

Most of us here are GMs, we have a different mentality then players only, we really do. Most of us would have no issue with replaying a scenario to help other players catch up with either our character or Pregens for no reward.

If I was to tell my players that the next game is a replay for the new players, that they get to play, get zero reward, and if they use their character anything they use is considered used and they can die, Only my GMs would show up, and none of the players that are replaying.

I think it is great we can replay to help new players, but in practice it will be hard to convince players that.

Edit: A good thing though, there is no longer a reason to restrict replay to Min tables only anymore.

Edit Edit: Wow Pain Killers make me an even worse speller!

Liberty's Edge

Yeah, I wholly agree with what's being said around replay -- personally, i would still probably play my character, unless I just want to try a pregen for the heck of it -- because it's mine, and I like my characters.

But will I play a bit more reserved...I might, depends on the mod and group probably. Would I play a pregen more aggressively? Yeah, probably a bit more because there isn't a real consequence.

I personally really like Kyle's idea of a nominal reward just for consumable usage.

Shadow Lodge 5/5

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook Subscriber

You could just prohibit the use of consumables on replay.

The Exchange

MisterSlanky wrote:
You could just prohibit the use of consumables on replay.

Then what happens when the person not replaying goes down and needs that potion of cure light to get back up?

This is obviously a subject that is not going to be resolved in a way that will please everyone. But, as this is a business first, we need a solution that will garner the most revenue for Paizo so they can keep making great products. The more that can play, the more stuff people will buy. I believe this is one reason why WotC went to an unlimited replay system with LFR. You don't have to worry about people cheating the system, when you can play as often as you like, with as many characters as you like.
Will there be people who play a scenario 5 times? Yes, but if that makes them happy, why are we stopping them from playing? Will there be people who try to abuse the knowledge gained from previously playing the scenario? Yes, but there are already ways of handling that, kick them out of the game. I think the level of abuse would be a lot lower than what people are predicting on these boards.
Isn't the whole point of Pathfinder Society to get people playing Pathfinder? Why are we stopping them?

Grand Lodge

Shieldknight wrote:
Isn't the whole point of Pathfinder Society to get people playing Pathfinder? Why are we stopping them?

You have unlimited replay now under the 1 and 1 rule. What you mean to say is unlimited replay for credit. Nobody is stopping anyone from playing.

I assume the business case for no replay is something like this:

Unlimited replay for credit can retire a character with as little as two $3.99 purchases beyond the Core Assumption materials. 1 tier 1-7 mod and 1 tier 7-11 mod. Total cost $7.98. And you can turn around and do it again for your next character. Is this fun? Probably not. It might be someone's idea of a good time and a way to show up to a Con with a 'good' character.

Under the 1 and 1 rule the same character requires 33 unique mods. To be fair under the original replay rules it also required the same 33 mods. Total cost $131.67. Since you wouldn't be able to play those 33 again for credit, your 2nd character also needs $131.67 worth of mods, which several posters have made clear that their players are abusing under the guise of replay.

Neither of these costs are direct to the players playing of course but can see where this is going. This drives sales of new modules and in turn related products.


jjaamm wrote:
LtlBtyRam wrote:
Dragnmoon wrote:
What level is the group?
That is an interesting question. We had a group of 6 at level 6/7 then three left (we are near a military installation). So three of us left have level 6/7. Most of the rest of the group have level 3/4. And we have new people that started last session and hopefully more new ones starting this next Saturday.
your 6/7's will soon be too high anyway for new players, so maybe now they will gm for the new players. at least they have the option to do so. As it was before all those gm's who helped build a player base of running 0-season mods can now get more than 1 characters past 5th.

The three players/characters are pretty much the only GM's left (there is one player who GM's as well). These three people have barely played since the other 3 departed. We haven't been able to play those characters for almost 2 months. Those characters are pretty much all 3 people's favorite, now they are left on the shelf. We have gotten the opportunity to play others, but those are falling behind the rest of the group. One last thing about the 6/7 characters. We will have to make a choice as to which to play when the rest of the group does "catch up," which in turn will leave the mid level characters out of play.

I don't know if our group is an anomaly or other people aren't speaking up. I should also add 1 of these people wasn't previously a GM and they have stepped up to the plate to GM. We also have one more player who will be GM'ing for the first time this upcoming Saturday.

As for the subject of playing pre-gens as to favorite characters. I know there is no real answer here. Kyle Baird had a good point about whether or not a player would play the character any differently knowing they had nothing to lose. I can see this, but I also know the penchant of our group not liking the pre-gens. I think it would be pretty obvious is a character was acting wrecklessly with resources. I really have to agree with the other side and say you can play your characters for no credit. However, if a player was exhibiting wreckless behavior there should be consequences. (i.e. if the GM thought this was going on they could award a chronicle sheet with the consequence stated.)

I am willing to listen to what others have to say about this and welcome input.

Liberty's Edge 4/5

Mark Garringer wrote:
Shieldknight wrote:
Isn't the whole point of Pathfinder Society to get people playing Pathfinder? Why are we stopping them?

You have unlimited replay now under the 1 and 1 rule. What you mean to say is unlimited replay for credit. Nobody is stopping anyone from playing.

I assume the business case for no replay is something like this:

Unlimited replay for credit can retire a character with as little as two $3.99 purchases beyond the Core Assumption materials. 1 tier 1-7 mod and 1 tier 7-11 mod. Total cost $7.98. And you can turn around and do it again for your next character. Is this fun? Probably not. It might be someone's idea of a good time and a way to show up to a Con with a 'good' character.

Under the 1 and 1 rule the same character requires 33 unique mods. To be fair under the original replay rules it also required the same 33 mods. Total cost $131.67. Since you wouldn't be able to play those 33 again for credit, your 2nd character also needs $131.67 worth of mods, which several posters have made clear that their players are abusing under the guise of replay.

Neither of these costs are direct to the players playing of course but can see where this is going. This drives sales of new modules and in turn related products.

Mark,

I would suspect that any replay rule that Paizo would create for "unlimited" replay for credit would have to look quite a bit like the RPGA/LFR rule: The player can replay a module as many times as he wants/can get it run for credit, but he has to play it with a different character each time.

So, in that case, it would still take 33 different modules to get a character from creation to retirement, either way, but it would allow for a bit more flexibility when dealing with new players.

Some potential benefits:
Character receives full earned credit for the module.
Player runs a character he has a vested interest in.
Player can still try new classes/races, especially with new releases adding options (APG, Magus, etc.)
Player less likely to "play reckless" since the character would likely be a continuing character, not a pre-gen or dream sequence.
Most players, in my LFR experience, still prefer to play new modules, rather than stay with the same old, same old.

Some potential detriments:
Player might remember the module events. (Let the newbies lead, and make the decisions)
Player might still play the character as a throwaway. (Hard to avoid, less likely under this type of replay rule, IMO)
Player might give away events in the module. (If accidental, just remind the player, if intentional, it falls under the don't spoil things rule)

Overall, I don't think a more LFR-like replay rule would hurt either Paizo or PFSOP, but YMMV.

Grand Lodge

Callarek wrote:
I would suspect that any replay rule that Paizo would create for "unlimited" replay for credit would have to look quite a bit like the RPGA/LFR rule: The player can replay a module as many times as he wants/can get it run for credit, but he has to play it with a different character each time.

Agreed. But that's still only another $7.98 round trip (potentially).

Again, I don't really have any kind of first hand experience with needing the replay tool in my kit. It's getting a little trickier around here as the player base grows, but we are doing our best to track who has played what, and offer choices which have the broadest appeal. I guess I've been lucky. Players aren't going to be able to play every week, and certainly aren't going to be able to play bi-weekly without running yourself out of options (in about a year or six months respectively) pretty quickly. I guess I kinda don't get it.

Liberty's Edge

Dear Paizo - Please never implement an "Unlimited" replay rule. That would be the death of the game. Just ask some of the GMs from LFR who would rather poke out their own eyes than run another scenario for the same 6 players 5 times in a row.

We discussed your changed rule with our local group - 93 players - and the overall opinion was favorable. We only have a replay player once in a great while, the last time the player did not want a chronicle sheet, so this will have little to no impact on the local scene.

Unlimited Play would not be received well at all.

Thank you!

Dave

Grand Lodge

Dave the Barbarian wrote:
Unlimited Play would not be received well at all.

As a total aside, since you appear to have a large, active group of players. Can you comment on the occurrence of play up/play down that happens to the extent you are aware? Or if you would care to email me directly I'd love to pick your brain about a few things. Email is same as my alias at gmail.

Liberty's Edge

Dave the Barbarian wrote:

Dear Paizo - Please never implement an "Unlimited" replay rule. That would be the death of the game. Just ask some of the GMs from LFR who would rather poke out their own eyes than run another scenario for the same 6 players 5 times in a row.

We discussed your changed rule with our local group - 93 players - and the overall opinion was favorable. We only have a replay player once in a great while, the last time the player did not want a chronicle sheet, so this will have little to no impact on the local scene.

Unlimited Play would not be received well at all.

For our group in St Louis, which overall probably is somewhere in the range of 20 regulars, I think the overall reception would be the same. Being able to play anything anytime is convenient...but playing the same mod over and over, because at one time it was a neat mod, or challenging, or gives the best boons/rewards...blows for both players and GMs.

That was one of the (many) reasons we stopped LFR.


If we lived in a perfect world where every GM had a laptop with cellular internet access, what I would like is an "infinite Replay" rule with a time limit (throw out a figure of, oh, six months) before you can play the module again with a new character.

Sovereign Court Owner - Enchanted Grounds, President/Owner - Enchanted Grounds

2 people marked this as a favorite.

As a player, I stopped playing LFR the day that one of the other players at the table stopped the DM mid-sentence and said, "Dude, we all know the story. Can you just start the first combat? I have to get home in three hours. And the skill challenge sucks. Don't bother with it, I'll just take the loss of the healing surge."

I looked around the table and realized that the same 5 pigeon-headed goofballs had been playing with me for several modules. Don't get me wrong - the people and names were all different. But at every one of those tables, I may have been the only player without any knowledge of what was going on in the story. I knew I was the only one trying to figure things out because, when I asked, "What should we do?" I would get this fascinating response: "I'm not allowed to tell you." Sweet. That's a blast.

So, while I cringe at the prospect of having a table of players who have each already GM'd the PFS module that I'm running this particular night (and has made me seriously consider whether I want to leave this behind, as I did LFR), the thought of having to put up with full replay will be the nail in the coffin.

I don't think a GM should be able to play a module he's already ran. He has more intimate knowledge of that module than a mere player who has only played it once (or even several) times. That said, I understand why you (Paizo) would want to allow them to do so - it keeps people GMing so that more new players will be exposed to the game.

But if you (Paizo) allow players to replay scenarios willy-nilly for credit, the same thing that happened with LFR will happen with PFS. Will it be the death of the game, as Dave the Barbarian says? No. But it will be the end of an interesting gaming experience. Those of us who left LFR because of the very same rule will leave this behind, as well. You will have tables that become more difficult for new players to get involved in. You will have GMs who are bored to tears because their players are just going through the motions to get their loot. You will have a stagnant player base that is filled with metagamers. You will have fewer GMs who actually care about running a game.

If you don't believe me, go spend a few weeks watching a store that runs LFR. All the players at every table are the same people. The DMs don't bother with story and roleplaying because their players already know what's going on. There is no laughter, no character, no real interest in anything other than completing the mod to get their XP and loot.

Those of us who wanted to have fun found something else: the Pathfinder Society, which has been a thriving community in my area. Now, this little thread has a lot of us very concerned. I've allayed some of their concerns: I've heard Living Arcanis is starting a new campaign...

The Exchange

Drogon wrote:


I don't think a GM should be able to play a module he's already ran. He has more intimate knowledge of that module than a mere player who has only played it once (or even several) times. That said, I understand why you (Paizo) would want to allow them to do so - it keeps people GMing so that more new players will be exposed to the game.

I can say with absolute conviction, that if I as a GM was not allowed to play a scenario after being the GM, I would quit Society play. And as the one who organizes the majority of PFS in our area, I would imagine it would die in my area.

I don't care for the unlimited replay either, but at the same time, I'm trying to find a solution that would keep most people happy and promote Pathfinder. I like the current rule, first time you play and the first time you GM, you get a credit for each. Any time you play of GM after the first time, no credit.

I think that while the discussion of those players who will be required to replay and not get credit is a good discussion to have, I believe there will be few instances it happens, and those who are participating will be okay with it. It's still better than LG. At least this way you aren't "eating" scenarios.

Sovereign Court Owner - Enchanted Grounds, President/Owner - Enchanted Grounds

Shieldknight wrote:
I can say with absolute conviction, that if I as a GM was not allowed to play a scenario after being the GM, I would quit Society play. And as the one who organizes the majority of PFS in our area, I would imagine it would die in my area.

Understood. That's why I said what I said. I've watched these boards for a long time, regardless of not posting much, and the prevalent GM opinion seems to be one similar to yours. I, personally, will never play a scenario I've already GM'd. But I have that luxury, in an area with over 100 active players.

Also, the few GMs I know who would take advantage of that rule will not overwhelm a table and turn it into the LFR experience that I so hated.

Shieldknight wrote:
I think that while the discussion of those players who will be required to replay and not get credit is a good discussion to have, I believe there will be few instances it happens, and those who are participating will be okay with it. It's still better than LG. At least this way you aren't "eating" scenarios.

The problem is that the majority of people who play PFS do not post on these boards. They're happy playing and experiencing things the way they are, and see no need to post as they have no desire to change anything. But the people who want replay *want it badly* and will be vocal about it. If they are the ones who are listened to, while the majority stand silently by not paying attention, the changes will drive them out. The majority of players will become the replayers. What makes this better than LG or LFR is the unique experience. Allow players to replay and get credit without restriction, and the uniqueness goes away.


"If Paizo makes a rule that says X, I'm going to pack up my books and go home. And if I quit, everyone around me will too."

I really hate it when people resort to tactics like that. Take a step back and realize that the game is bigger than you. It's bigger than your group of friends. You are only a small (but vocal) minority of the player base and if Paizo feels that a rule will benefit the society as a whole, they are going to make it, tegardless of your child-like threats. Even if it's more than a threat, keep it to yourself.

Sovereign Court Owner - Enchanted Grounds, President/Owner - Enchanted Grounds

And if they base their opinion of "what's good for the Society" on the 5% of people who post and are vocal? What, then?

Everyone should weigh in on this, so that they know real numbers. If I'm wrong, and more people are playing in areas like Shieldknight's (where replay keeps the community alive) vs the communities like mine (where replay happens once every six months, at the most), then I will eat my crow and shut up. Regardless, Paizo needs to know the actual majority, rather than merely listen to the ones who post.

The Exchange

Kyle Baird wrote:

"If Paizo makes a rule that says X, I'm going to pack up my books and go home. And if I quit, everyone around me will too."

I really hate it when people resort to tactics like that. Take a step back and realize that the game is bigger than you. It's bigger than your group of friends. You are only a small (but vocal) minority of the player base and if Paizo feels that a rule will benefit the society as a whole, they are going to make it, tegardless of your child-like threats. Even if it's more than a threat, keep it to yourself.

Not a threat. Just the truth. My apologies if it came across as childish. Not my intention.

I realize my area is minor in comparison to any other area out there. In a state where I know of less than 20 active PFS players and I am the one who organizes a majority of the games, I predict that PFS play would die off if I quit. This doesn't mean that I would quit playing Pathfinder, just that I would quit PFS. I would expect anyone, even the designers, would quit a game if they never got a chance to play that game.

Since Pathfinder Society began, I can count on one hand the number of times I have played a scenario before GM'ing it. That wears a person down, and makes it difficult to continue. I have already signed up for running PFS at a convention the first weekend of November. I expect that I will not get a chance to play a scenario, yet alone play one that I haven't GM'd. I love this game, and want it to continue in my area. I am jealous of those of you that have regular weekly or bi-weekly games. While I struggle to put together monthly gamedays. I have two fellow GM's who have stepped up and are willing to run games. But usually they run them in their town before I get the chance to play.

Guess I'm just getting frustrated over the whole thing. I'm good with the current rule of one each, play and GM, no credit for further replays. Part of me is just frustrated because every time I check the message board this rule appears to get tweaked.

Sorry about the rant. I'll just grab my blankie and sit in the corner and watch the big boys talk about it.

Liberty's Edge

Good Points!

Drogon - I would guess that one of the purposes of the Venture-Captain position is to do that very thing. Solicit the opinions of the area they represent and communicate this back to the mothership. Like you, I also doubt that a well respected GM poses a threat to the plot of any scenario they have run, once they play it.

Kyle - I agree that we should not use threats, but simply point out that what we believe the rule will do to the local scene. It is important that we do what is good for the game.

Shieldknight - I have that same blanket. Good news, it gives you +1 to your saves! :)

Scarab Sages

I think that we can all make assumptions on how people feel on both sides, but honestly, unless there was a survey about this issue, I doubt that we will really have a clear idea how this is going to be received.

People are going to leave their feedback. Its going to be for or against, but it is what it is. Let people speak their minds, blow of steam...whatever.

Grand Lodge

There are currently 33 scenarios for 1st-level characters. Yes, a few are due for retirement shortly, but there are new ones in the pipe to replace them.

My opinion, if there are players who have played all 33 and cannot find a scenario without a replay to join in with new players... perhaps they should be GMing a scenario for some of those new players.

That said, the coming increase in low-level mods will help greatly.


Drogon wrote:
And if they base their opinion of "what's good for the Society" on the 5% of people who post and are vocal? What, then?

This is always my fear for everything in life. The most vocal 5% usually ends up being the most extreme in their views.

As far as PFS is concerned, the best feedback comes from personally attending events and speaking with players, from their regional coordinators who are supposed to be in touch with their player base, and from event coordinators. The messageboards do have their place, however limited it may be.


I made a post a day or two ago similar to what I am about to write, but deleted it because I wanted to change it and only now got back around to posting it again.

Let's take three different types of people and apply the new rule to them: someone who only plays, someone who only GMs and someone who does both. Now let's see what it looks like after the 33 scenarios needed to reach level 12. The one who only plays and the one who only GMs will each have one 12th level character while the one who does both could have two 12th level characters. This is a big disparity and it needs to be addressed. I feel that it should still be just two credits per scenario that can be earned, but it should not matter how you earn them. Why should the person who is no good at GMing and only plays or the person who never gets the chance to play and only GMs be punished? Just make it so that the first two times you run a scenario or the first two times you play a scenario or doing each once all be valid for getting your two credits from a scenario.

Sovereign Court Owner - Enchanted Grounds, President/Owner - Enchanted Grounds

Michael Griffin-Wade wrote:
I think that we can all make assumptions on how people feel on both sides, but honestly, unless there was a survey about this issue, I doubt that we will really have a clear idea how this is going to be received.

That is an excellent idea, sir! Combined with this:

Dave the Barbarian wrote:
I would guess that one of the purposes of the Venture-Captain position is to do that very thing. Solicit the opinions of the area they represent and communicate this back to the mothership.

...we have the makings of avoiding this

Kyle Baird wrote:
The most vocal 5% usually ends up being the most extreme in their views.

...ruling the day!

Ah, democracy, sometimes it actually feels good. I envision Venture-Captains all across the world going to their players on game days and asking, "What if?..." so that they could get a real pulse on the community.

Now, if only every city/region that was supposed to have a Venture-Captain actually did have one so they could communicate with their players and get that word back to Paizo...

<<goes off in search of the appropriate thread to harass the appropriate people>>

The Exchange

Enevhar Aldarion wrote:

I made a post a day or two ago similar to what I am about to write, but deleted it because I wanted to change it and only now got back around to posting it again.

Let's take three different types of people and apply the new rule to them: someone who only plays, someone who only GMs and someone who does both. Now let's see what it looks like after the 33 scenarios needed to reach level 12. The one who only plays and the one who only GMs will each have one 12th level character while the one who does both could have two 12th level characters. This is a big disparity and it needs to be addressed. I feel that it should still be just two credits per scenario that can be earned, but it should not matter how you earn them. Why should the person who is no good at GMing and only plays or the person who never gets the chance to play and only GMs be punished? Just make it so that the first two times you run a scenario or the first two times you play a scenario or doing each once all be valid for getting your two credits from a scenario.

The only problem that I can see with that is that a lot of people who are GM'ing just once per module now to get that second credit when they've already played the module once would choose not to GM at all and just play a second time for credit, leaving people like poor Shieldknight GM'ing all the time because no one else will. I'm not saying this would be the case with all players or GMs--just some (those who are only willing to GM for credit and would otherwise never do so).

I think the one point for playing and one point for GM'ing is a good system. Yes, people who both GM and play will be ahead in the end, but I believe that's actually the point of the system--it rewards GMs for being willing to run games in addition to playing them. I do agree if someone only GMs it is kind of unfair that they'll also be behind. However, if the person really GMs only and never plays by choice, he/she isn't really going to care whether he/she has one or two characters at 12th level--because he/she doesn't actually play the character, anyway.

Grand Lodge

Enevhar Aldarion wrote:
Why should the person who is no good at GMing and only plays or the person who never gets the chance to play and only GMs be punished? Just make it so that the first two times you run a scenario or the first two times you play a scenario or doing each once all be valid for getting your two credits from a scenario.

The people who only put in half the time (all playing or all GMing) aren't being punished.

The people who put in twice as much time (playing and GMing) are being rewarded. And really they aren't being rewarded so much as getting parity with the time they've invested.

Liberty's Edge 4/5 Venture-Captain, Texas—San Antonio aka Dragnmoon

Shieldknight wrote:


I can say with absolute conviction, that if I as a GM was not allowed to play a scenario after being the GM, I would quit Society play. And as the one who organizes the majority of PFS in our area, I would imagine it would die in my area.

Quick Question, Until a few weeks ago a GM was never allowed to play a scenario and get credit after GMing the scenario, So why did you not quit then?

Liberty's Edge 4/5 Venture-Captain, Texas—San Antonio aka Dragnmoon

Kyle Baird wrote:

"If Paizo makes a rule that says X, I'm going to pack up my books and go home. And if I quit, everyone around me will too."

If Kyle Posts on these boards again, I'm going to pack up my books and go home. And if I quit, everyone around me will too!

;)


Dragnmoon wrote:
If Kyle Posts on these boards again, I'm going to pack up my books and go home. And if I quit, everyone around me will too!

Finally! It's not like anyone in Texas even plays Pathfinder Society.


Mark Garringer wrote:

The people who only put in half the time (all playing or all GMing) aren't being punished.

The people who put in twice as much time (playing and GMing) are being rewarded. And really they aren't being rewarded so much as getting parity with the time they've invested.

This.

The Exchange

Dragnmoon wrote:
Shieldknight wrote:


I can say with absolute conviction, that if I as a GM was not allowed to play a scenario after being the GM, I would quit Society play. And as the one who organizes the majority of PFS in our area, I would imagine it would die in my area.

Quick Question, Until a few weeks ago a GM was never allowed to play a scenario and get credit after GMing the scenario, So why did you not quit then?

I guess we misinterpreted the rules. Therefore I cheated, and according to the PFS Guide I am now banned for life. TTFE

Liberty's Edge 4/5 Venture-Captain, Texas—San Antonio aka Dragnmoon

Kyle Baird wrote:
Dragnmoon wrote:
If Kyle Posts on these boards again, I'm going to pack up my books and go home. And if I quit, everyone around me will too!
Finally! It's not like anyone in Texas even plays Pathfinder Society.

That's It I am leaving!!!

packs up his books and goes

Edit: Feel free to make fun of Texans, I just live here, I still think of myself as a New Yorker!

Liberty's Edge 4/5 Venture-Captain, Texas—San Antonio aka Dragnmoon

Shieldknight wrote:


I guess we misinterpreted the rules. Therefore I cheated, and according to the PFS Guide I am now banned for life. TTFE

Only Hyrum can Ban ya, And I doubt they will over a Misinterpretation. I know Josh banned a GM from GMing at a GenCon once, but he did not kick him out of the PFS.

It probably has never happened.

what does TTFE mean?

The Exchange

I was trying to be overly dramatic.
Our group understood the previous rules as "if you were Replaying a scenario via the Play,Play,Play rule, even after being the GM, you still got the credit. Up to the five different factions worth." For what its worth, I've only played after GMing twice.

Dragnmoon wrote:
what does TTFE mean?

Ta-Ta-For-Eternity

Taken from Tigger of Winnie the Pooh. My kids love him. He always says TTFN, Ta-Ta-For-Now.

Liberty's Edge 4/5 Venture-Captain, Texas—San Antonio aka Dragnmoon

Shieldknight wrote:

I was trying to be overly dramatic.

Our group understood the previous rules as "if you were Replaying a scenario via the Play,Play,Play rule, even after being the GM, you still got the credit. Up to the five different factions worth." For what its worth, I've only played after GMing twice.

Yeah, and here comes the reason people get frustrated with these forums.

That rule was clarified by Josh on the forums, stating once you get GM credit you can never get credit again.

He promised he would clarify it in a future update in the guide, but never did.

It sucks but the keeping up with the Society forums became essential to understand the guide rules, hopefully that is going to change, or become easier.

Edit: My favorite thing from Tigger was the Bouncy song!

The Exchange

Shieldknight wrote:

I was trying to be overly dramatic.

Our group understood the previous rules as "if you were Replaying a scenario via the Play,Play,Play rule, even after being the GM, you still got the credit. Up to the five different factions worth." For what its worth, I've only played after GMing twice.

Dragnmoon wrote:
what does TTFE mean?

Ta-Ta-For-Eternity

Taken from Tigger of Winnie the Pooh. My kids love him. He always says TTFN, Ta-Ta-For-Now.

Shield Knight, I'm pretty sure you're correct on this. Previously, you could replay if required to make a legal table, even after you'd gm'd the mod.

Liberty's Edge 4/5 Venture-Captain, Texas—San Antonio aka Dragnmoon

teribithia9 wrote:


Shield Knight, I'm pretty sure you're correct on this. Previously, you could replay if required to make a legal table, even after you'd gm'd the mod.

you could, but you were not allowed to get credit, it was a very confusing rule, and has been made much clearer with the new ruling. A GM who sat the table as a player who already ran it was allowed to sit the table playing a pregen, and got no credit from it.

No matter anymore. the rule has changed.

The Exchange

Dragnmoon wrote:
teribithia9 wrote:


Shield Knight, I'm pretty sure you're correct on this. Previously, you could replay if required to make a legal table, even after you'd gm'd the mod.

you could, but you were not allowed to get credit, it was a very confusing rule, and has been made much clearer with the new ruling. A GM who sat the table as a player who already ran it was allowed to sit the table playing a pregen, and got no credit from it.

No matter anymore. the rule has changed.

I think that's incorrect. That's the way it was originally--but in the most recent version of the rules (prior to the new Hyrum/Mark ruling), anyone replaying for the purpose of making a legal table, even if they'd gm'd the mod in the past, received credit for the module as long as they were playing with a different pc who had a different faction than the one they used for gm credit.

I realize this is completely irrelevant, now, since this is no longer the rule--but I believe Shieldknight is correct and wasn't breaking any rules. If I remember correctly, this replay rule was largely made to benefit small groups such as Shieldknight's--so the GM could, in fact, have a chance to play the mod after running if he needed to do so to make a legal table.

The Exchange

My apologies to everyone who had to read through the last few posts.

Back to the issue as it is...

Official PFS Ruling wrote:

If you play you earn 1 credit that is applied to the character that played through the scenario.

If you GM a scenario, you earn 1 credit that can be applied to any character that hasn't played through the scenario.

You receive GM or player credit regardless of the order you play/GM the scenario. You may not earn more than 1 player credit and 1 GM credit regardless of how many times you GM or play the scenario. You are free to use PPP to seat legal tables, but if you already have earned your credits you do not earn any additional ones.

I like this ruling. As I mentioned before, I believe that the Replay chronicles were few and far between and were a fringe case. While I have been a proponent of replay in the past, I have slowly changed my opinion. If we want to clear up the replay rules, just say something like...

Any player, after receiving credit for playing a scenario, may replay a scenario for no credit in order to achieve the Play,Play,Play rule. The player may use any of the Pre-Generated characters only.

The reason I don't like players using their own characters is for the same reasons that were stated above, it would be real easy to use up consumables and then we would have to deal with that issue. I would like to try new concepts if I was to replay, but at the same time, maybe we just need more pre-gens to make up for that. Could we make some pre-gens that Hyrum and Mark would approve of so that they don't have to do the work?


We're working on the official FAQ system plus an update of the official PFS documents. Both will take a little time so please bear with us.

Hyrum.

Liberty's Edge 4/5 Venture-Captain, Texas—San Antonio aka Dragnmoon

teribithia9 wrote:
Dragnmoon wrote:
teribithia9 wrote:


Shield Knight, I'm pretty sure you're correct on this. Previously, you could replay if required to make a legal table, even after you'd gm'd the mod.

you could, but you were not allowed to get credit, it was a very confusing rule, and has been made much clearer with the new ruling. A GM who sat the table as a player who already ran it was allowed to sit the table playing a pregen, and got no credit from it.

No matter anymore. the rule has changed.

I think that's incorrect....

I realize this is completely irrelevant...

I am not going to argue this anymore, since it really does not mean anything anymore, and Shieldknight is not going to get banned over it.

Liberty's Edge 4/5 Venture-Captain, Texas—San Antonio aka Dragnmoon

Hyrum Savage wrote:

We're working on the official FAQ system plus an update of the official PFS documents. Both will take a little time so please bear with us.

Hyrum.

Hyrum, I am going to be patient on this, I am just talking about it to give you ideas about how to implemented once you do update it.


I am going to leave our schedule alone for now. This said I don't think it'll hold up. Currently we play 2 times a month for 2 sessions each. This is 2 x 2 = 4 scenarios a month and 4 x 12 = 48 for the year. Also, more often than not we have to run at least 2 tables per session. Since we have more games then scenarios I again think this will have to be cut down.

If there are any of you who have anywhere close to this number of games in you area.
1)How many established players do you have?
2)How often do you have new players joining the group?
3)How often do you have to use the replay rules?
4)How many players do you average at each table?
5)How do you handle the multi-part scenarios for the new players?
6)Do your tables have pretty much the same makeup of memebers? i.e. are the same characters playing at the same tables most of the time or is there a lot of switch up.

The reason I asked question 6 is to get a feel of how new players if any and established players are mixing. If not then I take it the established players are playing with the established group and the new players are playing with the newcomers.

Liberty's Edge

For the Denver / Colorado Springs area we have 6 stores that run regular events.

We have 12 game days each month. All on different days and at different locations.

This is a total of 28 slots.

With more than 6 active players, you have to run a given scenario at least twice to give everyone a chance to play. For us, we would have to run it 16 times.

Let me answer your questions:

1) Almost 100 players. This is on the front range of CO and most players stick to the events closest to their home.
2) We have 2-4 new players per month. This number may be increasing if we keep promoting the game right.
3) Almost never. I can think of three times in over 100 reported tables. We needed the replay players to make a legit table.
4) 6 for most events. A few imprompto games during the week average around 4 and are where the replays occurred.
5) Try to schedule them often enough and in sequence so they can play them in order. All six game store coordinators keep an eye on what is being run so we can help get players through the series.
6) There tends to be a lot of switch up in my opinion.

We do a few things to help this:
We recommend that all existing players create an additional character once they hit 4th and then try to keep a few spread out so they have more options. Almost every player has multiple characters and a few 1st level characters just in case. This way if we have some new players, existing players will usually break out the 1st level pc's so the newbies can play.
Secondly, we try to schedule a handful of different tiers so that new players and experienced players will all have options.

There has been a handful of times where players had to skip a game day because they have played all three scenario's we were offering. They accept that and new players always have a chance to jump in.

We are lucky to have some of the best GMs and players around (completely biased opinion).

Liberty's Edge 4/5 Venture-Captain, Texas—San Antonio aka Dragnmoon

Dave, if you so many players up there, why has no one stepped up to be a Venture-Captain? Just curious. Is the attending GenCon, PaizoCon to restrictive for everyone there?

Liberty's Edge

I think because Denver is in the 2nd wave of Venture-Captain love. Besides myself, I know a couple other folks who have applied for it. We will see!

Grand Lodge

Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Dave -

So as not to treadjack:

Spoiler:
I'm going to be in COS for a couple weeks late-November/early-December. How can I find out when/where you guys are having events? It might be fun if I can break out a level 1 character and roll some dice with your guys.

-Skeld

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