Are there going to be any new player character races in/for Tian Xia?
I know youse guys don't care for them and all; just curious if hengeyokai are going to get any representation and whatnot.
Eh.
Hengeyokai being a "player race" is something that's a D&D-ism only thing. I'd honestly be happier with no new races in the book - from what I've read, Asian mythology and storytelling is very much rooted in mortal humans and their travels that touch into the spiritual rather then both mortal humans and non-human monsters chillaxing together*
*Yes ok I know like four or five mangas are going to be brought up to refute this they don't count and they probably all suck anyways >:|
If anything, I expect there might be a couple of asian themed low level races in Bestiary 3, with quick guidelines to play them (ala orc, tiefling etc in the Bestiary 1).
And Tengu.
Although I would like to see Hengeyokai and Korobokuru.
actually there a lot of the japanese spirits (yokai) operate like hengeyokai in that they have human disguises. Even tengu often appear as shugendo priests with long noses.
They might include spirit folk of a sort, who would be changelings, children who were taken t the spirit world and raised there.
Perhaps all the non player races will have 2 forms, although the second form need not be an animal.
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Eh.
Hengeyokai being a "player race" is something that's a D&D-ism only thing. I'd honestly be happier with no new races in the book - from what I've read, Asian mythology and storytelling is very much rooted in mortal humans and their travels that touch into the spiritual rather then both mortal humans and non-human monsters chillaxing together*
Before Tolkien, there weren't many stories about humans hanging out with other species either. It's only become a D&Dism because Gygax wanted to sell D&D to LOTR fans. I know that some folks will have a fit if they don't get kitsune, and folks have been playing tengu out of the Bestiary since it was released. I can't comment on the quality of manga, since I don't read them, but they do get read, and fans naturally will want to emulate those characters, given an appropriate setting to do so. I'm not a big fan of more and more player races either, but the concept is a deep tradition.
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Actually, if you do the research, you will find that there are several stories in Asian mythologies that deal with non-human heroes. I am not including manga in this.
The most important of these is (and by important, I mean the most influential on the cultures of the region where the story is told) Journey to the West. In this story, the Monkey King is the primary hero and he is not human. This is the story of how Buddhism came to China. There are many other stories of Sun Wukong, the Monkey King, also. This story also involves what might be considered a water spirit, and a pig that are also heroes in the tale. All three of these characters are companions of the human monk that began the journey. This is one of the most important stories in Chinese mythology. Furthermore, there are numerous Chinese tales involving animal spirits and there interactions with deities, other spirit animals and humans. India also has many stories involving intelligent animal and animal spirits, but I won't delve into that her since this is about Tien Xia.
In Korea, there are stories of tigers being held accountable for their actions by humans and having to provide for a human family. There is also a story of a fox-woman that becomes enamored with a farmer and marries him while disguised as a human, only to result in a tragic ending due to his ignorance and curiosity.
As everyone here is aware, I am sure, there are numerous stories of fox spirits, or kitsune, in Japan. The kitsune feature in nearly all the roles one could think of in these various tales, including that of the hero or the hero's ally, depending on how the tale is told. There are also stories of mischievous racoon dog spirits (tanuki) that can shapeshift and pull pranks on, teach, and guide human heroes in certains stories. Japan also has stories of very remote human villages that would be generations later only to see that these humans have superhuman abilities. The tengu were popularly said to have been the teachers of swordsmanship to one of the greatest swordsmen in that nations history.
China and Japan both have stories of spirits and faeries that live upon the moon that would occasionally come down to the earth to interact with mortals. There are also tales of demons who are reformed by the teachings of Buddha and try to better themselves by acting and eventually becoming human so that they might transcend the wheel of reincarnation.
Thailand and Cambodia have tales of a race of bird-men named after the Hindu god, Garuda, who did battle against their mortal foes, the snake-men known as naga. Both races are said to have had dealings with humans in these tales and not just with gods.
Certainly, there are also tales of these animals and spirits in the role of the monster in the tales, but there are several instances of them being the mentor and even the hero. I would even venture to say that there are at least as many instances of non-human creatures being in stories or even being one of the protagonists of a story in Asia as in pre-Tolkien Europe, if not more. In light of all this, saying that there is no good reason to have new non-human races in an Asian supplement only displays ignorance by choice. The material is out there and can be easily researched. Much of this material I actually learned while living in Korea, but I have also found much of it in public libraries, on the internet, in bookstores, and by actually talking to folks from those cultures.
I am not a fan of race or class bloat, but I do feel that if you are going to approach a given culture as a supplement for an RPG that you must pay homage to that culture's mythological and storytelling tropes and archetypes, both the ancient and modern views about those ancient times. If this is best represented by a class or race and there isn't a better way to handle it, then so be it.
Player races might be a "D&Dism", but hengeyokai as protagonists in the mythological stories of Asian cultures is not. That alone should qualify them as a player race. It really only boils down to how many non-human races do the writers want to create in Tien Xia and in Pathfinder.
+1... and that was an awesome bit of background, thank you.
Wonderful bit of background, and hardly a D&Dism.
If anyone would like to read a story on the subject, one I could not recommend more highly as one of the best novels with one of the worst names is "The Devil Wives of Li Fong" by E. Hoffmann Price. Here:
http://www.amazon.com/Devil-Wives-Fong-Hoffmann-Price/dp/0345284488
There are a lot of used copies out there cheap, but it has a wonderful story about a couple of serpents wanting to cut in line on the great wheel of transmigration and become human early.
It's also a fairly short novel, so if Planet Stories was looking for a minor classic to reprint as part of their doubles line, I'd say it would be a very solid choice.
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Asian mythology and storytelling is very much rooted in mortal humans and their travels that touch into the spiritual rather then both mortal humans and non-human monsters chillaxing together*
Wrong.
I was going to post some examples, but Ashanderai above has already done a great job of that I see (some good examples there).
I know of many stories from chinese mythology that have humans and celestial or spirit type creatures ‘chillaxing ‘ (well, adventuring) together.
Journey to the West (aka Monkey) as Ashanderai mentions is one of the best known examples (another character on the journey is a dragon who takes the form of a horse that Xuanzang rides for most of the story).
The Legend of the White Snake is another one. There are several more that I can think of from Chinese mythology or old stories that fit the bill, but I don’t know their names. An google search will probably reveal a few.
Ore to s%@*e
niramikura suru
kawazu kana
Issa
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Are there going to be any new player character races in/for Tian Xia?
I know youse guys don't care for them and all; just curious if hengeyokai are going to get any representation and whatnot.
I'm fairly sure James said Kitsune will be making an appearance somewhere, don't know if they'll be a PC race as such.
Awakened creatures as PC races? Could be interesting.
Ignorance by choice?
...Oooor I'm simply not as well read as I thought?
Occam's Razor ;p
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Is there going to be an analogue for the Ainu?
You mean humans, right? Because, you know, subbing in a nonhuman race to represent a human culture could be interpreted as maybe kind of racist. Also, Paizo has shown a marked leaning toward "real world human culture = Golarion human expy culture" in the past, so I don't think they're going to suddenly do something different that could also be seen as offensive.
Jeremy Puckett
*Yes ok I know like four or five mangas are going to be brought up to refute this they don't count and they probably all suck anyways >:|
This also happens to be one of the guiding precepts I live my life by.
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Is there going to be an analogue for the Ainu?You mean humans, right? Because, you know, subbing in a nonhuman race to represent a human culture could be interpreted as maybe kind of racist. Also, Paizo has shown a marked leaning toward "real world human culture = Golarion human expy culture" in the past, so I don't think they're going to suddenly do something different that could also be seen as offensive.
Jeremy Puckett
Well, if you're going to go broad on human and not count Taldan, Chelaxian, Varisian, Vudran, Garundi, Mwangi, Kellid, Ulfen, etc...
What I meant was the culture, the old indigenous people who were pushed aside by waves of new immigrants. A new race could fill their role, but doesn't have to.
By swapping out racial traits as done in the APG, sub-races, cultures, etc. can be added. I really fell for the alternate level system of WotC's Races books and still use them in my game. I both have and encourage players to create more feats based off these variations, even if they are not used. The fact that an Elf can learn strange and wonderous sword techniques that capitalize upon her astounding agility and finesse can add to the world's wonder, even if no Elf ever takes the feat. A goblin tribe's penchant for hazardous weapons of intricate and exotic (and Exotic) design has actually been used to describe a player's plan in game, meaning that his idea was so riddled with potential calamities that it could never work. Much like that last sentence!
Actually the Ainu didn't arrive until several hundred years ago from Russia. The Emishi were the barbarian humans of eastern and northern Japan that existed from the Heian period, up to the early feudal period 200 -1300 AD.
The Japanese originally considered the Emishi as Oni, or demons. In fact the ogre-magi oni of Japanese lore is a depiction of these larger than Japanese, bearded brutes of the Emishi.
Thus in Kaidan, the Emishi (barbarians) are in fact Oni demons.
Speaking of oni, Tengu in the Bestiary are listed as 'oni'. However, Tengu are both yokai (shape-changers) and undead - they are the ghosts of cruel aristocrats who died from during the Heian period. At no time in Japanese history or folklore were Tengu ever oni.
If there's to be Japanese folklore subtype, it should be 'yokai' which include almost all the known inhuman beings of Japan: tengu, yuki-onna, hebi-onna, kappa, hengeyokai, kitsune, etc. Oni are pretty much only the Emishi type/ogre magi, and perhaps shikigami (invisible diminuitive oni).
GP
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Actually the Ainu didn't arrive until several hundred years ago from Russia. The Emishi were the barbarian humans of eastern and northern Japan that existed from the Heian period, up to the early feudal period 200 -1300 AD.
Ainu refers to the modern group of people descended from the original inhabitants of the islands before other groups arrived from the Korean peninsula. The ancestors of the Ainu and Emishi both are likely to have existed in the Japanese archipelago by around 16,000 years ago, the Jomon. It isn't until the Yamato culture annexed the area that a distinct division was given to the Emishi and the Ainu. They are roughly indistinguishable today due to the racial laws Japan had in place since the end of the 19th century.
Yes, I am aware of all that.
In my original development of Kaidan, I intended my barbarians to actually be Jomon, but with further research discovering that early Heian Japanese considered the indigenous barbarian population to be oni demons, and the fact that my intended setting relies on Japanese folklore and ghost stories more than actual history, I decided to make the barbarians of Kaidan as oni, and something I call half-oni (more akin to a half-orc).
Some anthropologists suggest that the Ainu are a people from further north in the Russian owned islands that came to Japan and mixed with the Emishi during the 17th century. Whereas the Emishi were recognized distinctly from the early Heian Period up until the early feudal era in the 13th century.
I have an ainu carved bear sitting in my living room.
GP
If they do add new races, I would be interested in some human-headed animal-bodied folk (naga, sphinx, etc.), some animal-headed, human-bodied folk (kenku, garuda, etc.) and maybe a shape-shifter or two.
And Foo Dogs!!!!!
Actually the Ainu didn't arrive until several hundred years ago from Russia. The Emishi were the barbarian humans of eastern and northern Japan that existed from the Heian period, up to the early feudal period 200 -1300 AD.
The Japanese originally considered the Emishi as Oni, or demons. In fact the ogre-magi oni of Japanese lore is a depiction of these larger than Japanese, bearded brutes of the Emishi.
Thus in Kaidan, the Emishi (barbarians) are in fact Oni demons.
Speaking of oni, Tengu in the Bestiary are listed as 'oni'. However, Tengu are both yokai (shape-changers) and undead - they are the ghosts of cruel aristocrats who died from during the Heian period. At no time in Japanese history or folklore were Tengu ever oni.
If there's to be Japanese folklore subtype, it should be 'yokai' which include almost all the known inhuman beings of Japan: tengu, yuki-onna, hebi-onna, kappa, hengeyokai, kitsune, etc. Oni are pretty much only the Emishi type/ogre magi, and perhaps shikigami (invisible diminuitive oni).
GP
I wonder then if the tengu are doing penance, since they are often portrayed as yamabushi/shugenja with long noses. Is there any correlation?
I also wonder if saying they were greedy aristocrats is reference to the destroyed taira clan, as there was some history I read about ninja possibly taking in the ex-taira retainers after they lost to the Minamoto during the gempei war. The taira ended up starting the war to trying to instal a emperor to the throne (thus being greedy).
...
An excellent post, dude. My minor was East Asian Literature and I'll stand behind your whole thing there.
+1 for awakened tool using animal people, fox femme fatales, garuda=must have, ogre mages, shape changing dragons, and reformed demons.
The "Fu dogs", Shishi, or gate guardians are a mix of dragon, lion, and dog (which depends on who you talk to) . If I were doing a PF China they'd be everywhere. Domesticated. In the cities guarding the homes and palaces of the wealthy.
...An excellent post, dude. My minor was East Asian Literature and I'll stand behind your whole thing there.
+1 for awakened tool using animal people, fox femme fatales, garuda=must have, ogre mages, shape changing dragons, and reformed demons.
The "Fu dogs", Shishi, or gate guardians are a mix of dragon, lion, and dog (which depends on who you talk to) . If I were doing a PF China they'd be everywhere. Domesticated. In the cities guarding the homes and palaces of the wealthy.
And the occasional profession wizard solving crime in Chicago....
I wonder then if the tengu are doing penance, since they are often portrayed as yamabushi/shugenja with long noses. Is there any correlation?
I also wonder if saying they were greedy aristocrats is reference to the destroyed taira clan, as there was some history I read about ninja possibly taking in the ex-taira retainers after they lost to the Minamoto during the gempei war. The taira ended up starting the war to trying to instal a emperor to the throne (thus being greedy).
The original tengu were crow-like humanoid birds, the ghosts of early Heian aristrocrats 700 to 900 AD. The red faced human looking tengu with the long noses are from later Buddhist influenced days. The Daitengu (king tengu) was said to appear as the humanoid sort. Yamabushi dwell in the mountains. Tengu dwell in mountains. That's pretty much the connection there, to the point that some belief the Tengu taught the Yamabushi all they know. So the two have always been intrinsically tied.
The Taira and their story happened after the period when aristocrats became tengu, at the very end of the Heian period and the Genpei War 1180-1185. The only ghost story mentioning the Taira is Hoichi the Earless, by Lafcadio Hearn. Another legend states that a certain specie of crab bear the resemblance of warrior faces on their carapaces, said to be Taira ghosts.
While it could be suggested that Taira no Kiyomori placed his own choice on the imperial throne, the emperor who was deposed, was his son-in-law, and the 1 year old child of that emperor, was Kiyomori's pick for the emperor, Antoku (his grandson). Yes, the Taira controlled the imperial court and placed their own choice for emperor, still the emperor was in line for the throne - even though he was a child (puppet emperor).
The Taira figure prominently in my Kaidan: a Japanese Ghost Story setting, and the 5 year old boy emperor, Antoku is the undead (Zarashi Washiki) ghost emperor who still sits on the throne. Kiyomori (a death knight) is Shogun.
In Japan, when you die a greedy person, you come back as a ghoul or dwell in the Hungry Ghost realm.
GP
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I am not a fan of taking Dwarves halflings elves and gnomes, and "stuffing" them into a "mid Eastern" or an "Oriental" setting. I think that these areas have plenty of their own rich mythologies, and i would prefer to see some races drawn from those mythologies.
For example, i think its much more interesting to have elves, Janni, and Spirit Folk, rather then stuffing an elf into a Kimono. Although elves probably look nice in anything, Kimono's included.
That being said, I think we have enough base classes, and can easily use "archtypes" to give the character classes a "Tian Xia" feel to it.
Thanks
I think it's fairly easy to add dwarves and halflings to other settings; most mythologies have little people and dwarves in them. Gnomes and elves seem a little bit more mythos-based than other demi-humans.
But another thing to consider is that this is a fantasy setting, and many of us aren't as concerned about historical accuracy as we are playing fun and exciting characters. And new and interesting races can make fun and exciting characters.
Maybe a race of those ceramic tomb guardians? We all love living constructs!
Maybe a race of spirits that possess living, sleeping, or dying creatures.