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While referencing a rule noted under Acrobatics which indicates:
Creatures with a base land speed above 30 feet receive a +4 racial bonus on Acrobatics checks made to jump for every 10 feet of their speed above 30 feet. Creatures with a base land speed below 30 feet receive a –4 racial bonus on Acrobatics checks made to jump for every 10 feet of their speed below 30 feet.
(Keeping in mind that the reference to "-4 racial bonus" is a typo).
Does a human (30' move) wearing platemail (20' move) incur this penalty?
The human's "base land speed" is 30'.
The table below provides reduced speed figures for all base speeds from 5 feet to 120 feet (in 5-foot increments).
I'm uncertain if this above paragraph is read as either:
"Reduce a character's base speed as per the speed adjustment given in the table"; or
"Reduce a character's speed as per the speed adjustment given in the table"
In short, was the reference in the table to "Reduced Speed" instead of "Reduced Base Speed" intentional?
Although I originally thought armor and encumbrance did affect base speed, I am now thinking it does not. If it doesn't, then the reference on Page 88 to the bonus being a racial bonus would be more supportive of this.
I believe that this rule takes in to account your speed before encumbrance or wearing an armor. When you wear an armor or you have an encumbrance effect you receive check penalties which apply to your Acrobatics check. In that way if a paladin fullplate is already penalized by the huge check penalty of his armor. He shouldn't also be penalized by the reduction of his speed. The effect of the armor to the checks is already applied by the check penalty.
Two creature that initially have different speed are supposed to also have different anatomy. For example longer limbs or something similar. For simplicity and abstraction all these are combined and derive from the base speed of the creature this is maybe why the bonus was called racial. At least this is my opinion.
I believe that this rule takes in to account your speed before encumbrance or wearing an armor. When you wear an armor or you have an encumbrance effect you receive check penalties which apply to your Acrobatics check. In that way if a paladin fullplate is already penalized by the huge check penalty of his armor. He shouldn't also be penalized by the reduction of his speed. The effect of the armor to the checks is already applied by the check penalty.
Two creature that initially have different speed are supposed to also have different anatomy. For example longer limbs or something similar. For simplicity and abstraction all these are combined and derive from the base speed of the creature this is maybe why the bonus was called racial. At least this is my opinion.
For what it's worth, I agree fully with this assessment.
To apply the -4 penalty for reduced speed on top of the armor check penalty would be very punitive--a "double jeopardy" of sorts.
I'm of the school of thought that you take the bonuses and penalties as they come. Racial first, then encumbrance, etc. etc.
So a creature (let's call it a horse in barding) with an unencumbered racial speed of 50', wearing enough armor to accrue a -5 ACP, would have:
50' Base Speed = (2 x +4 = +8) +8 to Acrobatics
Armor Penalty = -5 Penalty
Total = +3 to make a jump
Conversely, a ponderously slow Battle Sloth, with a speed of 10' a round would get a -8 penalty applied before the -5 from its armor, for a whopping -13.
Armor reduces your -current- speed. It does not, inherently, remove your natural, unencumbered movement. Putting on a suit of armor does not magically make you stop being a Human with a Base Speed of 30, but rather gives you a Current Speed of 30 - N. (Which is actually, real-world factually, incorrect, he said, having worn a suit of leather-and-chain armor several times a year for several years, and still been able to run laps quite easily. Game mechanic-wise, however, it is a valid rule for terms of balance.)
I agree with the double-penalty.
- ACP - difficulty moving in armor
- Speed - inertia
Two completely different factors that penalize or give bonuses based on their respective states.
I agree with the double-penalty because I believe that enhancing your speed also adds a bonus.
So a Human with a Base Speed of 30' and wearing Full Plate has a -10 to his jump (-6 ACP -4 20' speed). If he then get Haste cast on him his speed increases by 30 and he now has a +2 to his jump (-6 ACP +8 50' speed).
If it is worded correctly the it's not a penalty it's a -4 bonus, so if they have a racial bonus from some other source to Acrobatics checks made to jump they wouldn't have both just the higher of the two.
If it is worded correctly the it's not a penalty it's a -4 bonus, so if they have a racial bonus from some other source to Acrobatics checks made to jump they wouldn't have both just the higher of the two.
I'm sorry just what are you trying to say? This statement doesn't make sense to me.
If it is worded correctly the it's not a penalty it's a -4 bonus, so if they have a racial bonus from some other source to Acrobatics checks made to jump they wouldn't have both just the higher of the two.I'm sorry just what are you trying to say? This statement doesn't make sense to me.
There is some debate about if the "-4 racial bonus" is worded correctly or should be addressed in the errata or FAQ. If it is worded correctly then it is a bonus not a penalty. When a character has two bonuses of the same type they only take the higher of the two. Therefore if a PC has a racial bonus to Acrobatics checks made to jump from some other source they would only take the higher of the two, not simply add both.
Any chance we could get a Paizo staff reply on this? I'm unsure how to code my Character Generator for this adjustment.
Paizo Staff: I will trade you a cookie gift basket for a rule confirmation :)
Paizo Staff: I will trade you a cookie gift basket for a rule confirmation :)
And a cute and cuddly, plush, stuffed Cthulu.
The rules state that the base land speed is the deciding factor. And your base land speed doesnt change when wearing armor. The armor might slow you down.
Thus wearing armor, you only have the ACP to bring into the equation.
Base land speed and speed while wearing armor are also two seperate entries on your character sheet.
So a cleric with the travel domain (+10 base land speed) has a speed of 40' with no armor, 30' with light armor and 20' with heavy armor. Basically making that bonus obsolete if the cleric wants to wear armor :(
So a cleric with the travel domain (+10 base land speed) has a speed of 40' with no armor, 30' with light armor and 20' with heavy armor. Basically making that bonus obsolete if the cleric wants to wear armor :(
Medium or heavy armor slows the wearer down.
The number on Table 6–6 is the character’s speed while
wearing the armor. Humans, elves, half-elves, and halforcs
have an unencumbered speed of 30 feet. They use
the first column. Dwarves, gnomes, and half lings have
an unencumbered speed of 20 feet. They use the second
column. Remember, however, that a dwarf ’s land speed
remains 20 feet even in medium or heavy armor or when
carrying a medium or heavy load.
The entry under armor doesnt mention base land speed at all. The acrobatics mention base land speed specifically. So wearing armor does not change base land speed, so no extra penalty.
While referencing a rule noted under Acrobatics which indicates:
Creatures with a base land speed above 30 feet receive a +4 racial bonus on Acrobatics checks made to jump for every 10 feet of their speed above 30 feet. Creatures with a base land speed below 30 feet receive a –4 racial bonus on Acrobatics checks made to jump for every 10 feet of their speed below 30 feet.
(Keeping in mind that the reference to "-4 racial bonus" is a typo).
Does a human (30' move) wearing platemail (20' move) incur this penalty?
The human's "base land speed" is 30'.
The table below provides reduced speed figures for all base speeds from 5 feet to 120 feet (in 5-foot increments).
I'm uncertain if this above paragraph is read as either:
"Reduce a character's base speed as per the speed adjustment given in the table"; or
"Reduce a character's speed as per the speed adjustment given in the table"
In short, was the reference in the table to "Reduced Speed" instead of "Reduced Base Speed" intentional?
Although I originally thought armor and encumbrance did affect base speed, I am now thinking it does not. If it doesn't, then the reference on Page 88 to the bonus being a racial bonus would be more supportive of this.
A creature's base speed is based only on its race and effects or abilities that directly affect base speed. This includes the Travel domain, the Fleet feat, the longstrider and expeditious retreat spells, and horseshoes of speed, among other things. However, the bonus to Acrobatics applies only when base speed is increased. Anything that does not specifically reference base speed (the haste spell, for example, does not, nor do the monk or barbarian's fast movement abilities--the latter of which should probably get some form of errata)
The encumbrance table on p. 170 is an extension of the data on Table 6-6; if you have a base speed of 20 or 30, you use p. 6-6; if your base speed is something other than 20 or 30 (because you're under a longstrider spell, or you're a warhorse, or you've used every one of your feat selections to choose Fleet), then you use 170. In neither circumstance does the encumbrance reduce your base speed. If it did, the table would say so. Nothing affects base speed unless it is specifically mentioned in the text.
Paizo staff has already commented on this. Your current speed IS your base speed if I am not mistaken.
I'll see if I can find the old thread.
EDIT: Found it.
I just love how everyone calls my insane rules threads crazy, only to have them be used to answer important and logical rules questions months later.
True genius is never appreciated in its own time I guess.
Paizo staff has already commented on this. Your current speed IS your base speed if I am not mistaken.
I'll see if I can find the old thread.
I can remember this, too. It means that guys in heavier armour can hardly hop while monks almost fly.
Paizo staff has already commented on this. Your current speed IS your base speed if I am not mistaken.
I'll see if I can find the old thread.
EDIT: Found it.
I just love how everyone calls my insane rules threads crazy, only to have them be used to answer important and logical rules questions months later.
True genius is never appreciated in its own time I guess.
I decided to search and read every reference to speed in the Core Rulebook. Here is a very important reference to base speed, "hidden" on page 192 under Tactical movement.
"Your speed while unarmored is your base land speed."
"Always apply any modifiers to a character's speed before adjusting the character's speed based on armor or encumbrance..."
So, here is my rule interpretation then:
This would mean to me that the total of all adjustments to speed (whether they be untyped, or specified -- such as enhancement) equal the character's base speed, and then you apply the armor/load modifier. Once the armor/load has been factored in, this represents the character's "normal speed".
So, any reference to an effect that affects "normal speed" affects the "total" speed, where-as an effect that affects "base land speed" is tallied up with all other modifiers, prior to the armor/load adjustment.
To make life easier on everyone, I have summarized all the speed definitions into one area:
Okay, while wearing heavy armor, I mostly play a dwarf.
So here is the next question. If someone has the throw anything feat, can he toss a dwarf further than the dwarf can jump?
In Kingmaker my Dwarf has asked our Bard: "Toss me, but dont tell the man-witch"
So here is the next question. If someone has the throw anything feat, can he toss a dwarf further than the dwarf can jump?
Well, that would depend: On how far the character can toss that dwarf, on how far that dwarf can jump, and on whether your GMs game world enforces heavy penalties for quoting ;-)
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Well, that would depend: On how far the character can toss that dwarf, on how far that dwarf can jump, and on whether your GMs game world enforces heavy penalties for quoting ;-)
So here is the next question. If someone has the throw anything feat, can he toss a dwarf further than the dwarf can jump?
I've often wondered if the writers knew what 'tossing' and 'tosser' were euphemisms for in the UK while they were scripting that scene.
I've often wondered if the writers knew what 'tossing' and 'tosser' were euphemisms for in the UK while they were scripting that scene.Well, that would depend: On how far the character can toss that dwarf, on how far that dwarf can jump, and on whether your GMs game world enforces heavy penalties for quoting ;-)
So here is the next question. If someone has the throw anything feat, can he toss a dwarf further than the dwarf can jump?
What isn't a sexual euphemism in some form of the English language these days?